Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-29 Thread Stefano Mazzocchi
Stephen McConnell wrote: -Original Message- From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 20:22 To: community@apache.org Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: No policy adopted by a project can

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: William A. Rowe, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2004 08:42 To: community@apache.org Cc: community@apache.org Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed At 08:30 PM 12/16/2004, Stephen McConnell wrote: Concerning our decision making processes, I

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:54, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Niclas Hedhman wrote: I give you an example of what I call 'compromise' and 'collaboration' ; Those events as you describe them did happen. If they were the only ones, we'd have a happy healthy community. :o) Each individual

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 04:29 To: community@apache.org; Noel J. Bergman Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:54, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Niclas Hedhman wrote: I give you an example

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 11:19, Stephen McConnell wrote: Greg holds to the opinion that the appointed Chair is the PMC and that the members are simply an artificial construct. Before anyone is requesting the quote where Steve get that notion from;

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Niclas Hedhman wrote: On Tuesday 21 December 2004 05:05, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: Regardless of whether there was any 'right' or 'wrong' position, it appears that there were irreducible differences. I only recall one side expressing a willingness to

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:41, Noel J. Bergman wrote: You seem to keep forgetting that I supported Merlin havine a home at the ASF. Very much appreciated :o) , as I know you normally saw through all the BS that was part of the Avalon stage. Point? That consensus by attrition is a

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Niclas Hedhman wrote: On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:54, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Actually, all it takes to veto a change is one PMC member to cast a -1 with a technical justification. The issue is how a community deals with those vetos, and how progress

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Niclas Hedhman wrote: On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:41, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Point? That consensus by attrition is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural occurring thing in all projects (people do leave healthy projects) which is replenished with

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 12:09, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: People leaving a project for J Random Reason is acceptable attrition. People leaving because they don't agree with the majority opinion is, too. A practice of asking people to leave, or trying to drive them away, because they

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 12:02, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: Niclas Hedhman wrote: On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:54, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Actually, all it takes to veto a change is one PMC member to cast a -1 with a technical justification. The issue is how a community deals with

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 11:50, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: Then you're being uncommonly obtuse obtuse? (is that insult or compliment? otoh getting the true meaning from a dictionary is probably not a good idea :o( ) 'I have a serious reservation about this because it appears to be

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
consensus by attrition is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural occurring thing in all projects Not when the attrition is caused by unhealthy friction and stress within the community, and an active (and stated) goal to remove those who didn't share a particular vision. --- Noel

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 05:10 To: community@apache.org Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Niclas Hedhman wrote: On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:41, Noel J. Bergman

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Stephen McConnell wrote: William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote: Stephen McConnell wrote: * What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision making process? They have absolute decision making process within the board's mandate for their project. According to Greg Stein this should

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Craig McClanahan
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:31:03 +0100, Stephen McConnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly. I've got a better idea ... let's not play the game (any more) at all. The decision was made (and I, as an Apache member, consider it to be in *my* best

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 05:30 To: community@apache.org Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed consensus by attrition is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural occurring thing in all projects Not when the attrition

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Stephen McConnell wrote: If I remember correctly you coined the phrase, and now you are promoting this left right and center presumably as your rationalization of past events. Cut to chase - publish all of this - not just the selected extracts. Actually, I was just checking some of the

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread David Crossley
Niclas Hedhman wrote: Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: Niclas Hedhman wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: Actually, all it takes to veto a change is one PMC member to cast a -1 with a technical justification. The issue is how a community deals with those vetos, and how progress can be made

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 20 December 2004 22:16 To: community@apache.org Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: Maybe it's about dealing with the breach

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 05:30 To: community@apache.org Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed Stephen McConnell wrote: William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote: Stephen McConnell wrote: * What do you think is the role

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Brian W. Fitzpatrick
On Dec 20, 2004, at 10:39 PM, Craig McClanahan wrote: On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:31:03 +0100, Stephen McConnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly. I've got a better idea ... let's not play the game (any more) at all. The decision was made (and I, as an Apache

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz
Le 21 déc. 04, à 08:21, Brian W. Fitzpatrick a écrit : Take it to alt.talk.wank for crissakes. +1 -Bertrand smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Henning Schmiedehausen
On Tue, 2004-12-21 at 05:39, Craig McClanahan wrote: On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:31:03 +0100, Stephen McConnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly. I've got a better idea ... let's not play the game (any more) at all.

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi
Craig McClanahan wrote: ... If you guys had put the same amount of energy into your software that you put into your arguments, the world really would have been a better place as a result of your efforts. +1 (@see my mantra below... what I want to accomplish, what

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Greg Stein
On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 11:43:14AM +0800, Niclas Hedhman wrote: On Tuesday 21 December 2004 11:19, Stephen McConnell wrote: Greg holds to the opinion that the appointed Chair is the PMC and that the members are simply an artificial construct. Before anyone is requesting the quote where

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Greg Stein
On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 07:21:09AM +0100, Stephen McConnell wrote: ... a committee should have the ability to remove a chair The PMC lacks the authority to do so. Which is why it was presented as a recommendation! Do you see an inherent problem with the notion of a Chair accountable

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Greg Stein
FYI: The avalon-pmc archives are fully available to ASF Members. For those who are done poking forks in their eyes, and would like something only a bit less painful, then you can review the threads which talk about attrition or nazi in the 200403 archive. Cheers, -g On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr
On Dec 21, 2004, at 3:23 AM, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: On Tue, 2004-12-21 at 05:02, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: If there's a reasonable reason, cool. Otherwise, maybe we can move on. There'll be no 'winner' here. But we could proclaim Stephen and Niclas winner. Maybe this thread would end

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Dirk-Willem van Gulik
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Niclas Hedhman wrote: The PMC Chair is an ultimate decision maker Please check the bylaws for the normal situation. But -WHEN- things break down, when there is no consensus and there is no clear ability to reach any conclusion and it is in the interest of the foundation

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Niclas Hedhman wrote: A practice of asking people to leave, or trying to drive them away, because they don't agree with you is not acceptable. It is a single occurrence in time, and in my book everyone is allowed to make occassional mistakes. You make

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Niclas Hedhman wrote: That FUD is prevalent in ASF establishment, against its own contributors, for unknown reasons, possibly unintentionally, by an unnamed, possibly unknown, person or a group of persons. And that FUD is being amplified by everyone

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly. I don't intend to touch this remark. Open up the Avalon PMC archives and let's really get down to real metal and in the process I think we will clean up more that a couple of

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 20:59, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: No, I don't think it was a single occurrence. *I* only know of one such time, in conjunction with Leo Sutic resigning on the basis of People leaving because they don't agree with the majority opinion is acceptable attrition.

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: Once again, there was no technical breach of procedure. Of custom, perhaps, but not of procedure. This is another dead horse that should stop getting beaten. A set of polices and procedures were established and these procedures

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Niclas Hedhman wrote: BUT, I *would* appreciate if you spent some of your intellect looking at the more important stuff raised in this thread under new Subject. (I don't see any new thread yet.) If the stuff is raised as hypothetical issues, sure. I'll

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 21:39, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: (I don't see any new thread yet.) Same thread, new Subject Subject = Requesting clarification in ByLaw text. -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org /

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 14:32 To: community@apache.org Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: Once again, there was no technical breach

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr .
On Dec 21, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote: Authority without accountability? I'm could imagine why you and other members of the board feel comfortable with this. Make a chair accountable to the committee and the next thing you know will be board accountability to chairs. Oh god -

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 20:13 To: community@apache.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed On Dec 21, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote: Authority without accountability

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: No policy adopted by a project can supercede the policies of the ASF. Any that do are null and void, or, at best, advisory only. Then clearly you have been negligent in your responsibility towards the Avalon community. No more

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I realize that this is little more than a filibuster, and I probably should be smacked for feeding *this* troll *smack* Stephen. Excellent, Geir! Reponding to Stephen, you

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 20:22 To: community@apache.org Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: No policy adopted by a project can supercede

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 20:22 To: community@apache.org Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: No policy adopted by a project can supercede

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Scott Sanders
Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to address this. You decision to abstain from further discussion within this context

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Serge Knystautas
Stephen McConnell wrote: Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to address this. You decision to abstain from further

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Wednesday 22 December 2004 03:54, Scott Sanders wrote: If there is anything wrong with the policies and procedures of the ASF, it is that Avalon was not shut down in 2001 or before. I have spent most of the evening reading mails pre-Avalon TLP and especially the period around the TLP was

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Stephen McConnell wrote: Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of an open community. Rather, you are not willing to see that despite the ASF's utopian ideals, we recognize in our legal

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to address this.

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-21 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 21:55 To: community@apache.org Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Serge Knystautas
Stephen McConnell wrote: I've tried to stay out of this thread(s), but I just have to say, give me a break. James was one of Avalon's most visible users, and I simply cannot stand to hear someone from Avalon criticize the ASF establishment about the treatment of Avalon users. Perhaps it could

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Niclas Hedhman
[fixed-width font required] Serge, I disagree with your assessment that You [Steve], as a primary actor in the Avalon community, failed... 1. Steve is accused of becoming the primary actor of late, when the other primary actors, like Peter Donald, Berin Loritsch, Nicola Ken Barozzi, Paul

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Friday 17 December 2004 00:13, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Well, actually the dictionary does: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=attrition. And, yes, when someone suggests that those who don't agree with him remove themselves from the decision-making process, I would call that consensus

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Serge Knystautas
Niclas Hedhman wrote: You really think that we consider that fair judgement? I do not blame you or Stephen or anyone individually for James's dependencies. Stephen asked the question of whether these dependencies could, or rather shouldn't it, lead me to direct blame at the ASF establishment,

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Monday 20 December 2004 10:01, Serge Knystautas wrote: That doesn't mean it's fair, or even matters that much. Passing judgement on someone often doesn't matter much, except to the 'convicted'. Not guilty vs 4 weeks in jail with parole can change someone's life dramatically.

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Serge Knystautas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I can somewhat understand though not empathize with wanting to have history reflect what you see as having happened. Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy here out in the open

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Tim O'Brien
If the ASF doesn't work for you then get busy at dpml. Really, go and innovate. But, please don't stick around and try to prove a point by continuously trolling the community@ list. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Serge Knystautas
Niclas Hedhman wrote: That doesn't mean it's fair, or even matters that much. Passing judgement on someone often doesn't matter much, except to the 'convicted'. Not guilty vs 4 weeks in jail with parole can change someone's life dramatically. Never-the-less. Someone could write a novel on all

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread William A. Rowe, Jr.
At 09:21 PM 12/19/2004, Stephen McConnell wrote: Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy here out in the open instead of behind the protection of private lists. Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a PMC and ensuring that this does

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Scott Sanders
Thanks to those who helped lay the issues to rest, happy ranting to those who wish to beat the dead horse, and long live good code in whatever forum is appropriate to it. Amen, +1 Scott - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Niclas Hedhman wrote: Who wants to commit any code or do anything in an environment as poisonous as Avalon was at the time? 4. So you don't want to spend any time in Avalon, but you really do want to make it hard for everyone else? There has to be

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a PMC and ensuring that this does not get rewarded nor repeated. Once again, there was no technical breach of procedure. Of custom, perhaps, but not of

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: Irrespective of the validity of this opinion - members of the board actively encouraged Aaron to ignore any PMC opinion and take an executive decision. Provide citations supporting this, please. - -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar,

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 05:05, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: Niclas Hedhman wrote: Who wants to commit any code or do anything in an environment as poisonous as Avalon was at the time? 4. So you don't want to spend any time in Avalon, but you really do want to make it hard for

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Noel J. Bergman
The active committer community objected to the transfer of dead code from cvs to svn, arguing that the Avalon svn should contain the active alive code. And that would have been wrong. SVN is our successor to CVS, and we are to PRESERVE *ALL* history of our code, which is an asset. In my

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Niclas Hedhman wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=attrition. Why didn't you list the meanings given by your link Because people can read. 1. and 2. is probably what people are referring to Yes. Some highly successful projects in ASF, has started with

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Niclas Hedhman wrote: I give you an example of what I call 'compromise' and 'collaboration' ; Those events as you describe them did happen. If they were the only ones, we'd have a happy healthy community. Each individual works on what he/she finds interesting, relevant and important.

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-20 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Stephen McConnell wrote: Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy here out in the open instead of behind the protection of private lists. yawn The facts don't bear witness to the claim. Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-19 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Serge Knystautas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2004 21:01 To: community@apache.org Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed Niclas Hedhman wrote: Smoke and Mirrors - isn't there a passage in the New Testament with something about sin

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-17 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 December 2004 23:11 To: community@apache.org Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed the only ones who really got hurt were the Avalon users, and the ASF establishment have already declared

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-17 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Stephen McConnell wrote: When you say and the two container factions that chose not to participate with everyone else you are implying and active choice? Do you believe that the Avalon community was presented with a choice? Yes to both. And multiple of each over extended periods of time.

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-17 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2004 03:09 To: community@apache.org Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed Stephen McConnell wrote: When you say and the two container factions that chose not to participate with everyone else

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-17 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Stephen McConnell wrote: * What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision making process? The PMC makes all binding decisions regarding a project. If the PMC fails in that regard to the satisfaction of the Foundation's stakeholders, the Board can, and will be expected to, take

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-17 Thread William A. Rowe, Jr.
At 08:30 PM 12/16/2004, Stephen McConnell wrote: Concerning our decision making processes, I have a couple of questions... * What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision making process? They have absolute decision making process within the board's mandate for their project.

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-17 Thread J Aaron Farr
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote: * Within our decision processes, what do you think is more important - the community or the individual? The community. Individuals participate, but the distinction between an ASF project and a, say, sourceforge project, is that the ASF project is more than one

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-17 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi
J Aaron Farr wrote: ... The thing is, and the reason for sharing this with the community, is that PMC's and communities need to watch out for this sort of thing in your own community. Don't wait for the situation to get critical. PMCs and PMC Chairs can intervene and should rather than watch

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-17 Thread Henning Schmiedehausen
Now the partys over Im so tired [ ... as probably everyone else here ...] Then I see you coming Out of nowhere [ ... Is this you, Stephen? ... ] Much communication in a motion Without conversation or a notion [... Yep ...] Avalon When the samba takes you Out of nowhere And the backgrounds

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-17 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr
On Dec 17, 2004, at 10:35 AM, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: Comments in [] by me, with apologies to Bryan Ferry and Roxy Music. You just ruined this for me - I really liked that song, and I really hate this whole Avalon thing. Now, can we please lay this thread to rest? What good is it for?

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-17 Thread J Aaron Farr
-Original Message- From: Henning Schmiedehausen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Now, can we please lay this thread to rest? What good is it for? Just to prove I was right? +1 Sorry for the noise. I do hope, though, that the larger ASF community does learn some lessons from what

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-16 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Niclas Hedhman wrote: Smoke and Mirrors Not at all. Stephen was incorrect, and I was providing the correction. I passed no judgement about whether any of the decisions were the right ones, only stated that they were valid. - -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar,

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-16 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Thursday 16 December 2004 04:00, Serge Knystautas wrote: James was one of Avalon's most visible users, and I simply cannot stand to hear someone from Avalon criticize the ASF establishment about the treatment of Avalon users. That does not make James/Cocoon and the other ASF projects the

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-16 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Wednesday 01 December 2004 11:26, Noel J. Bergman wrote: more important than the community's vision The [VOTE] Single Avalon Platform[1] was started by Aaron. The vote passed, although you decided not to participate. True, the vote is not about Merlin==Avalon, but about a to-be-defined

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-16 Thread J Aaron Farr
Hello everyone. -Original Message- From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... The [VOTE] Single Avalon Platform[1] was started by Aaron. The vote passed, although you decided not to participate. Votes are not infallible. Communities can change directions especially when they

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-16 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Thursday 16 December 2004 22:51, J Aaron Farr wrote: In fact, Niclas, why don't you open up all the [EMAIL PROTECTED] archives? I seem to remember quite a few conversations by the Metro TLP team about wanting to, what was it?, clean up the kitchen or take out the trash in reference to

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-16 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Niclas, J Aarron said it so well, I really have little to add, but I'll respond to a couple of your comments directed to me. Niclas Hedhman wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: proceeded to engineer consensus by attrition, I am sick and tired of hearing this about Steve Many people lay their

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-15 Thread Rodent of Unusual Size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: The Board had nothing to do with these directions or choices. Our only (recent) involvment was that the VP in charge of Avalon asked us to terminate the project, so we did. A board decision taken *without* the endorsement of the

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-15 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Thursday 16 December 2004 02:26, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: So the PMC chair was perfectly within its authority to request that the board terminate the project. And from what I read on the Avalon lists, my clear impression is that the action had majority support within the project if

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-15 Thread Serge Knystautas
Niclas Hedhman wrote: Smoke and Mirrors - isn't there a passage in the New Testament with something about sin and stones ? And it's amazing how high the political can stack without smell. But, anyway, that is history so let's move on with our lives - after all, the only ones who really

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-15 Thread Noel J. Bergman
the only ones who really got hurt were the Avalon users, and the ASF establishment have already declared that they are not important. With the exception of Phoenix, which evolved externally as Loom, and Merlin, which decided to move away from the ASF, all of the Avalon code is still under ASF

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-01 Thread Stephen McConnell
-Original Message- From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] And on behalf of the developers at Avalon, I would like to Thank ALL the past Chairs and members of the Avalon PMC, for a all-in-all a job well done. I'm sorry - but you will have to exclude myself from the above

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-01 Thread Greg Stein
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 02:26:43AM +0100, Stephen McConnell wrote: ... The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon project. Um. No. The Apache Software Foundation established the PMC. Its purpose was to

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-01 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Stephen McConnell wrote: The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon project. The community interests were clear - a single platform, one specification, a cohesive solution. That decision was not

RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed

2004-12-01 Thread Henning Schmiedehausen
Messages like this are IMHO the main reason, why Avalon failed. Stephen, you should understand, that community always means compromise. You didn't seem to be able to accept that. In the end, these tensions lead to the end of Avalon. Story is over, no need to kick a dead horse. One of the good