Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-12 Thread Stroller

On 12 Jun 2008, at 03:19, Kevin Dean wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one.

 Walk into T-Mobile or ATT and  buy a phone and sign up for a
 contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in
 your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same
 contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll
 see they're the same.

I think your replies to this thread started when I said OMG!  
WTF!?!?!? in reply to a statement like that.

Here in the UK the prices would certainly NOT be the same.

Checking ATT's website it does indeed seem the situation is  
different in the US. I went to the website, clicked the shop for  
tariffs (shop for plans?) link and was unable to complete the  
checkout process without selecting a handset. To a European, this  
seems about as antiquated as being required to rent your landline  
handset from the phone company (which indeed was the case when I was  
a child, 25 years ago).

 You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're
 arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit
 someone else's company is able to make on transactions.

Hmmmn... IMO you're taking Mr Pfeiffer's should a bit literally here.

Certainly from my point of view, I am astounded at the opportunity  
the US carriers appear to be missing out on. They could easily  
advertise got a handset from your old contract? Save 25% on you  
monthly bills - try our new SIM-only tariffs! Think of how the  
customers would come flocking to them.

The scenario you describe means that whenever one finishes one's  
contract the old mobile phone is garbage. It's chucked away and  
becomes landfill. I can't see how this benefits anyone except the  
foreign manufacturers of phones. The carriers have to stock,  
inventory  finance handset stock, and the consumer ends up paying  
more. It just seems insane to me, and that's what surprised me.

(OTOH: I now understand that the iPhone truly does only cost $199, if  
one prefers monthly billing to PAYG SIM cards).

Stroller.

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-12 Thread Kevin Dean
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 12 Jun 2008, at 03:19, Kevin Dean wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one.

 Walk into T-Mobile or ATT and  buy a phone and sign up for a
 contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in
 your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same
 contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll
 see they're the same.

 I think your replies to this thread started when I said OMG!
 WTF!?!?!? in reply to a statement like that.

 Here in the UK the prices would certainly NOT be the same.

 Checking ATT's website it does indeed seem the situation is
 different in the US. I went to the website, clicked the shop for
 tariffs (shop for plans?) link and was unable to complete the
 checkout process without selecting a handset. To a European, this
 seems about as antiquated as being required to rent your landline
 handset from the phone company (which indeed was the case when I was
 a child, 25 years ago).

I'm surprised that ATT doesn't list that on their site. I honestly
haven't checked their (or T-Mobile, my provider of choice) website for
being able to do that. The thing is, people frequently go Cell
carriers are doing this abusive thing! and that gets me a bit
annoyed. It is more common to buy the phone/service bundle, but it's
not the ONLY way to. I went to T-Mobile this weekend to purchase a SIM
card for my Freerunner and the only question asked was Is it
unlocked (ensuring it's compatible). There was a SNAFU there
because this was a newly opened store who didn't have the activation
kits, but it was a service they clearly offered and even have
pamphlets in their holders.


 You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're
 arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit
 someone else's company is able to make on transactions.

 Hmmmn... IMO you're taking Mr Pfeiffer's should a bit literally here.

 Certainly from my point of view, I am astounded at the opportunity
 the US carriers appear to be missing out on. They could easily
 advertise got a handset from your old contract? Save 25% on you
 monthly bills - try our new SIM-only tariffs! Think of how the
 customers would come flocking to them.

There are other logistical issues to that, and while it's slowly
changing, it's not possible to ignore them. In most of Europe, GSM is
standard. In the US, two of the four largest cellular providers use
CDMA so for most people making that claim would come with so many
caveats that it would be hard to handle even in the best case. In
Verizon's case, for instance, they will be transitioning to GSM from
CDMA soon. It would be a bit counter productive for them to
encourage people to bring their existing phones over to a network when
they're phasing down that very technology.


There's also the fact that most people are in a contract. There would
have to be SIGNIFIGANT savings to justify most of that for customers.
Typical early termination fees are between $150 and $300 per handset.
A 25% monthly savings on my plan would save me very little money in
the long run ($150 cancellation fee per handset and my plan is a
family plan where my wife and I share minutes. To cancel that service,
I'd need to terminate 2 phones, costing me $300 for a two year savings
of $360).

There's also the consumerist mentality here. I'm not sure if it exists
in the UK, or if so, how strongly, but it is common (especially among
the younger demographic) to change phones frequently to have the
latest and greatest. It's the same reason the iPhone 2 is going to
sell despite the fact that the iPhone is still functional and even
still leading the pack in terms of appeal.


 The scenario you describe means that whenever one finishes one's
 contract the old mobile phone is garbage. It's chucked away and
 becomes landfill. I can't see how this benefits anyone except the
 foreign manufacturers of phones. The carriers have to stock,
 inventory  finance handset stock, and the consumer ends up paying
 more. It just seems insane to me, and that's what surprised me.

As I said above, in many many many cases it is the phone, NOT the
cellular service, that gets people interested in service. ATT wasn't
particularly appealing but the iPhone WAS. There are some pragmatic
people who buy a phone and use it until it dies. A large chunk upgrade
their phones before their contracts expire for some new or improved
feature, or because it comes in a new color. Even when two carriers
have the same phone models, there are often exclusives - Verizon had
a pink RAZR for a year before anyone else did for instance.


 (OTOH: I now understand that the iPhone truly does only cost $199, if
 one prefers monthly billing to PAYG SIM cards).

Perhaps that's another difference that matters. Trying to buy my SIM
this past weekend, even though they 

Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-12 Thread ian douglas
Kevin Dean wrote:
 On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 tariffs (shop for plans?) link and was unable to complete the
 checkout process without selecting a handset.
 
 I'm surprised that ATT doesn't list that on their site.

They want to force you to walk into their store where you see all of the 
phones on display and try to sell you accessories, etc.

Just take the Freerunner into the store with you and say Hey, have an 
unlocked GSM phone here already, just need a SIM...

 I went to T-Mobile this weekend to purchase a SIM
 card for my Freerunner and the only question asked was Is it
 unlocked (ensuring it's compatible). There was a SNAFU there
 because this was a newly opened store who didn't have the activation
 kits, but it was a service they clearly offered and even have
 pamphlets in their holders.

Kevin, make sure you activate your minutes -- the TMobile store I went 
to said they would activate my minutes and it took me and Michael Shiloh 
scratching our collective heads at SCALE 6x to determine that my TMobile 
SIM wasn't working because it was never activated by the store...

-id


 
 You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're
 arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit
 someone else's company is able to make on transactions.
 Hmmmn... IMO you're taking Mr Pfeiffer's should a bit literally here.

 Certainly from my point of view, I am astounded at the opportunity
 the US carriers appear to be missing out on. They could easily
 advertise got a handset from your old contract? Save 25% on you
 monthly bills - try our new SIM-only tariffs! Think of how the
 customers would come flocking to them.
 
 There are other logistical issues to that, and while it's slowly
 changing, it's not possible to ignore them. In most of Europe, GSM is
 standard. In the US, two of the four largest cellular providers use
 CDMA so for most people making that claim would come with so many
 caveats that it would be hard to handle even in the best case. In
 Verizon's case, for instance, they will be transitioning to GSM from
 CDMA soon. It would be a bit counter productive for them to
 encourage people to bring their existing phones over to a network when
 they're phasing down that very technology.
 
 
 There's also the fact that most people are in a contract. There would
 have to be SIGNIFIGANT savings to justify most of that for customers.
 Typical early termination fees are between $150 and $300 per handset.
 A 25% monthly savings on my plan would save me very little money in
 the long run ($150 cancellation fee per handset and my plan is a
 family plan where my wife and I share minutes. To cancel that service,
 I'd need to terminate 2 phones, costing me $300 for a two year savings
 of $360).
 
 There's also the consumerist mentality here. I'm not sure if it exists
 in the UK, or if so, how strongly, but it is common (especially among
 the younger demographic) to change phones frequently to have the
 latest and greatest. It's the same reason the iPhone 2 is going to
 sell despite the fact that the iPhone is still functional and even
 still leading the pack in terms of appeal.
 
 The scenario you describe means that whenever one finishes one's
 contract the old mobile phone is garbage. It's chucked away and
 becomes landfill. I can't see how this benefits anyone except the
 foreign manufacturers of phones. The carriers have to stock,
 inventory  finance handset stock, and the consumer ends up paying
 more. It just seems insane to me, and that's what surprised me.
 
 As I said above, in many many many cases it is the phone, NOT the
 cellular service, that gets people interested in service. ATT wasn't
 particularly appealing but the iPhone WAS. There are some pragmatic
 people who buy a phone and use it until it dies. A large chunk upgrade
 their phones before their contracts expire for some new or improved
 feature, or because it comes in a new color. Even when two carriers
 have the same phone models, there are often exclusives - Verizon had
 a pink RAZR for a year before anyone else did for instance.
 
 (OTOH: I now understand that the iPhone truly does only cost $199, if
 one prefers monthly billing to PAYG SIM cards).
 
 Perhaps that's another difference that matters. Trying to buy my SIM
 this past weekend, even though they sold them, there was some
 confusion - they're sold so infrequently here that it was a noteworthy
 event. Having to not manage minutes is a very convenient thing for me
 and if not for wanting to test the Freerunner and the 1973 at the same
 time, I'd have zero real incentive to go prepaid. That sentiment is
 most common here, though there are good reasons to do an as you go
 plan.
 
 Stroller.

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SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
 when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
 unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.

TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and 
I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had 
an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card 
for it.

I'm sure ATT would do the same if you simply walk into the store and 
tell them you want to purchase a SIM card for an unlocked phone you 
already own, and that you just want the SIM card.

-id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Sander Hoentjen
On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 18:08 -0700, ian douglas wrote:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
 
  If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying 
  the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package 
  and THEN we can talk.
 
 But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the 
 iPhone. Just because ATT subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit 
 they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service, the 
 consumer isn't paying more for the phone since they'd still have to 
 pay for the same voice/data service to use a Freerunner. It just means 
 ATT makes more profit on the voice/data plan because they haven't 
 subsidized anything.
 
 And you still haven't followed up with how you calculated the iPhone to 
 cost 'twice' as much as the Freerunner.
 
I took the following approach (I am in The Netherlands):
compare the price difference for a 24month contract with or without an
iPhone (16GB) (Yes this is not the new one, but i suspect it will not
differ too much).

Price for 24 mo with iPhone: 719,- eur
with HTC Touch Diamond (just for comparison): 541,-
without phone: 163,10 eur




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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Robert Taylor
ian douglas wrote:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
   I'm not dropping this. You still have it wrong.

 Hi Robert,

 I'm not trying to win the overall argument, I just want you to 
 acknowledge that my position is as valid as your own, as I do for your 
 position in point #2 below.

   
Ian, I acknowledge that your point is valid.

My apologies to you and everyone for making more of a stink out of this 
than necessary.

I get it, we can't win playing their game. 

According to someones post a while back, it will be at least a year  
before any of the hoops can be jumped through before the moko will start 
to be considered as part of some sort of subsidized package deal.

Although there is wiggle room, it seems that if we can't make the device 
stand out and we get locked into feature vs feature war that it is a 
loosing strategy.   The iphone deal is a pretty horrible deal, as is the 
blackberry device.  I can't understand how anyone buys things like 
that.  However RIM and Apple have managed to do a great job at 
differentiating their brand in the market place and getting their 
message out.

I wonder if we have anything that unique to offer.  Can the open world 
come up with an identity?  Or is our identity no identity?


Rob

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Our Identity (was: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Robert Taylor wrote:
 if we can't make the device stand out ... it is a loosing strategy.

Yup, you've hit the nail on the head ... anyone comparing apples to 
apples in a side-by-side feature list is more likely to choose the 
iPhone. It looks slick, it's a nice form factor, and has features the 
Freerunner will not have like the camera and 3G. The Freerunner will 
have features like USB host mode and open-source software.

I think what's more likely to happen is that the Freerunner will 
primarily be picked up by the technology-advanced users around the 
world, who will then show off the phone to everyone around them, and 
word will spread gradually. I'm confident that the OpenMoko team know 
exactly what they're doing in terms of marketing, etc..

 I wonder if we have anything that unique to offer.  Can the open world 
 come up with an identity?

Our identity as a community is exactly that: openness. Use the phone how 
you want, update it when you want, change it when you want, upload apps 
when you want, write your own apps, nothing's hidden, you have complete 
access. You won't have anywhere close to that level of access on the 
iPhone without jailbreaking it and all of the risks included in that, 
and having to re-break the phone every time Apple upgrades the firmware, 
etc., plus being forced to *buy* applications from iTunes. Bleh.

As I've said above, that identity is more likely to appeal to the geeks 
of the world than Joe Six Pack. And I don't think OpenMoko is trying 
to sell millions of Freerunners like Apple/ATT are hoping to... we'll 
have a carefully-carved niche market of users, and it'll start with the 
curious users and expand from there over time. By the time the GTA03 or 
GTA04 come out with cameras and (hopefully) a slimmer form factor, etc., 
I think it'll be more of a phone/device that will appeal to a much wider 
audience.

My $0.02...

-id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Andy Powell
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 04:47, rakshat hooja wrote:
 
  I don't know where my NDA stands on this. (I dont have the signed copy
  back

 yet and I guess i wont be posting any more on this once I get it:-) I
 discussed with a carrier in India and they were as the first offer willing
 to offer unlimitid data on GPRS/Edge and free incomming for *one year* for
 about $70 (more than half their normal rate) if their connection is sold
 with the Freerunner.

Sounds like you got stuck with the crappy US model contract. AFAIK it's only 
the USA (and now India) where you pay to *receive* calls as well as make 
them. Perhaps we're 'lucky' in Europe where inbound calls cost the callee 
nothing..




-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Sander Hoentjen wrote:
 compare the price difference for a 24month contract with or without an
 iPhone (16GB) (Yes this is not the new one, but i suspect it will not
 differ too much).
 
 Price for 24 mo with iPhone: 719,- eur
 with HTC Touch Diamond (just for comparison): 541,-
 without phone: 163,10 eur


According to Engadget [1], ATT will have a voice/data plan for the 
iPhone starting as low as $69.95/month, and a minimum of $84.95 for 
business customers.

The $69.95 price seem to be the same (at least in my Los Angeles-based 
zip coe) for a non-iPhone user selecting the minimum voice plan at 
$39.95 and the $30/month unlimited 'personal data' plan for PDA's and 
Smartphones. Data plan is $50 for unlimited data/SMS, and data plan is 
$60 for 5GB of data with tehering (using your smartphone as a modem).

Over the course of two years, you'd be paying the same $1679.04 plus 
taxes, fees, surcharges, etc. plus the cost of the phone at the $69.95 
price.

[1] 
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/06/09/iphone-3g-from-atandt-unlimited-data-for-30/

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear - what market

2008-06-11 Thread Kalle Happonen
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:16:40 + Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

   
 Robert Taylor wrote:
 
 On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.  
 If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than 
 the $600 the phone is worth.
   
 The first iPhone was released june 29/2007 and the first hacked that allow
 you to use it with any operator was announced on july 9/2007. It will happen
 again and unlocked iPhones 3G will be available, it does not matter if the
 first bunch are stolen, second hand or refurbished, it short time everyone
 will be able to buy an iPhone 3G without contract for almost the same price
 than it contract. Then we will be able to compare unsubsidized iphones with
 moko. until that moment lets end the flame :-) but if I am right the iPhone
 will be cheaper even unsubsidized. (although i would buy a moko anyway)
 

 not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this
 happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it was 
 assumed
 that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and apple bore
 the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (att). so they
 sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from att after that.

 now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you
 can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a
 contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract
 unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination
 clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of
 not completely cover it and then some.
   
This is how I've understood it too, so this means there would be no 
cheap unlocked iPhones on the market in any significant volume. But 
the next thing to consider is what market/audience is the main target of 
OM. It seems some places (US) you'll end up to pay the same for the 
contract with or without a subsidised phone, which makes OM pricey 
compared to other options.

In many places in europe however you can get much cheaper contracts 
without an included phone. In Finland (which is a best case scenario, 
granted) for example, I would never touch a phone+subscription combo, 
partly thanks to a good legislation. So in many (most?) countries in 
europe OM + a contract could be significantly cheaper than iPhone.

I can't say about the asian market, but I think the imporant thing to 
consider where the most phones are expected to be sold. Another thing to 
consider is the target audience of GTA02. Are people who consider 
getting GTA02 also considering iPhone, or is it more of a geek/hacker 
(GTA02) - ooh look at me, I'm so trendy (iPhone) split, in which case 
the problem isn't a big deal to begin with.


 sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the factory or
 from shipments before they get to an apple or att or other carrier store, and
 some may be sold under the counter without contract - but i guarantee that
 that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a rebate
 once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean hey 
 have
 to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money.

 as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT contract are
 going to be much more than $199.

   
 furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a
 freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and
 philosophy. 
 
 This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing 
   
 things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to 
 be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, 
 it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and 
 understand the reality of the situation.
   
 not equal value? Moko, iPhone, iRiver, Blackberry... we are talking about
 smartphones, and money is money. If you buy an orange, and apple or a pinable
 you pay with money!! every fruit have advantages and disadvantages, but you
 pay anyway

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Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Heikki Sørum
This discussion is silly. Seriously, it's silly. It's silly on so many
levels I probably can't sum up all the point's that make it silly.

Now that I got your attention; 
I apologize, I don't think you guys or anyone else are silly. ok? 
But bear with me as I try to explain why I think this is a silly
dicussion.

1. OM is a niche marked manufacturer.

First off all, does anyone here even remotely imagine that OM/FIC has
the marketing capacity or brand leverage as Apple? You know, Apple 
Corporation whose whole existence is dependent on good industrial design
and long-term brandname marketing? You know, the Apple corporation that
has survived 30 years of IBM and MS hostility by leveraging their
strengths?
I can't (at the moment) even imagine OM trying to target the
majority of Apple's consumerbase. It's corporate suicide.


2. OM is a startup company. (on the long term scale.)

The GTA01/02/03+ designs are still evolving and more importantly the
cellular/computing market hasn't even started to seriously grow. No
sane economist can today even guess when market saturation will occur.
Besides, today's PDA's / mobile are fairly primitive in capabilities
compared with the wealth of software and choice in the PC market.
(Including all Apple, OM, HTC, Nokia and SE PDA/mobiles.)
This means there is a lot of opportunities for startups to both
create new market's and to fail miserably. OM has been around for a
couple of years and has to stay in the game at least until it's
possible to forcast how the mobile computing market will evolve. 
This could take a decade, and personally I hope FIC  whoever
owns the majority of OM shares is willing to provide 10+ years of
capital before any significant return of investment occurs. 
But I doubt OM's shareholdes has (yet) the willingness to
invest the amount necessary to create a global distribution and
production capability to rival Nokia, SE or Apple on basically a
untried HW design, untried SW and a untried nieche market.
At least, it won't happend until after GTA03 or maybe even GTA04 has
become a success and /created/ a niche opensource crowd/fanboy
market.

3. Production cost's on HW dictate a Economics of Scale.

When comparing prices and claiming OM/Iphone is cheaper/more expensive
don't forget that regardless of now cool/cheap/nifty/open/closed the SW
is the overhead to start production of hardware is insanely high _and_
in addition there is a base cost for the physical components that won't
go away. As production in units ramp towards /millions/ of units the
overhead margin shrinks towards zero. But I doubt there will ever be
sold more than a couple of ten tousands of GTA02. I'm not even sure that
the GTA02's price and production will cover the costs pr unit for
OM/FIC.
I'm not claiming they are dumping prices, rather that the cost
of running OM,( engineering, marketing, accounting etc.) probably won't
be recuperated by selling GTA02 units. (Nor 03 or 04.. maybe during
GTA05)

4. How cellular phones are priced is dictated by how a regional market
has evolved.

The US _isn't_ the only market in the world, nor are the the market
conditions in the US even remotely comparable with other regional
markets. So maybe the Iphone is sold in the US locked to a ATT
plan, in a market where there you actually have to pay /exit-fees/,
and where monthly costs doesn't change regardless of where you bought
your phone. How many units sold in different markets isn't
dictated only by the sales price but rather on how the market has
evolved in different regions. 
Don't overextrapolate when trying to guestimate the cost of a
Iphone vs. GTA. Some regions has a lower barrier to entry, and personally I
won't be surprised if GTA02 end up being sold by the ten thousands in
Europe/Asia while the sales in the US will only reach
a few hundred units. (IMHO)

5. The GTA01/02/03+ designs are still evolving and the SW is barely
alpha quality.

Discussing Iphone vs gta interface and SW capabilities isn't
remotely interesting as it has next to no impact on sales.
Any current GTA SW is  iphone SW in terms of maturity and
capabilities if it was targeted at the same consumer base as the iphone.
Look at linux on desktops, Ubuntu and derivates has barely
started to nible at the edges of MS's entrenced market domination.
Expect another decade of steady improvement of linux desktop SW while
MS's does the I'm-a-dinosaur-and-meteorites-doesn't-exist dance before
market partity has been reached. This also applies to OM in a market
were Nokia and SE are the actually main opponents.

6. OM want to leverage the development cycle of opensource/free
software.

Of course OM is gambling on the fact that opensource/free
software has a insane rate of evolution when it hits the right sweet
spot among opensource developers/fans boys. But to hit this sweet
spot they will _have_ to do everything they can to appeal to such a
crowd rather than the regular consumer base. (Slightly 

Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread rakshat hooja
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Wednesday 11 June 2008 04:47, rakshat hooja wrote:
  
   I don't know where my NDA stands on this. (I dont have the signed copy
   back
 
  yet and I guess i wont be posting any more on this once I get it:-) I
  discussed with a carrier in India and they were as the first offer
 willing
  to offer unlimitid data on GPRS/Edge and free incomming for *one year*
 for
  about $70 (more than half their normal rate) if their connection is sold
  with the Freerunner.

 Sounds like you got stuck with the crappy US model contract. AFAIK it's
 only
 the USA (and now India) where you pay to *receive* calls as well as make
 them. Perhaps we're 'lucky' in Europe where inbound calls cost the callee
 nothing..


 Andy / ScaredyCat


No all incoming calls are free in India and most handsets are sold without
contract. This is a pay as you go (or prepaid) sim where they are willing to
offer India Rupees 250/per month (1 USD=43 Indian rupees) for unlimited data
and you can buy voice minuets as you like. what i meant by free incoming was
that the sim will remain active for one year even if you dont buy any
minuets at all and you can continue to receive free incoming calls for the
entire year.

The normal rate for unlimited data plan is between Indian Rupees Rs395-495 +
a basic rental of your contract (ranging between Rs 200 - 400 for normal
users). Outgoing calls cost are extra.

The Rs 250/month unlimited data was offered if we bundled their connection
with the
Freerunners we sold. At the moment we have no intentions of doing that as
most of the early buyers form us will be developers but may offer it (or a
better deal) as an *option *when mass market software is ready.

Rakshat
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Peter Nijs
I pay my carrier €50 per year on avarage. And buying an OM will not increase 
that amount.

Peter

On Tuesday 10 June 2008 19:56:44 ian douglas write:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
  You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year
  contract minimum.

 Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost,
 because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400
 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also
 helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.

 And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to
 sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still
 paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of
 the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay
 for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of
 going to Apple to help pay for the hardware.

 Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price
 of their phones to lock you into a contract.

 Just my $0.02.

 What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the
 freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has
 their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple
 to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to
 build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their
 mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to
 do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that
 come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots
 of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a
 community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on
 OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software.

 That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price.

 -id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Jano
Andy Powell wrote:

 On Wednesday 11 June 2008 04:47, rakshat hooja wrote:
 
  I don't know where my NDA stands on this. (I dont have the signed copy
  back

 yet and I guess i wont be posting any more on this once I get it:-) I
 discussed with a carrier in India and they were as the first offer willing
 to offer unlimitid data on GPRS/Edge and free incomming for *one year* for
 about $70 (more than half their normal rate) if their connection is sold
 with the Freerunner.
 
 Sounds like you got stuck with the crappy US model contract. AFAIK it's only
 the USA (and now India) where you pay to *receive* calls as well as make
 them. Perhaps we're 'lucky' in Europe where inbound calls cost the callee
 nothing..

I just learned from an overseas friend about this pay for being called, and
it certainly feels outrageous to someone used to being called for free.

Alas, I guess it is a matter of time that this feature arrives over here...


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Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Michael Kluge
 7. Apple currently defines the PDA/mobile marketplace.

No, the smartphone market is dominated by the Blackberry.


Michael

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Andy Powell
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 09:51, rakshat hooja wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Sounds like you got stuck with the crappy US model contract. AFAIK it's
  only
  the USA (and now India) where you pay to *receive* calls as well as make
  them. Perhaps we're 'lucky' in Europe where inbound calls cost the callee
  nothing..
 
 
  Andy / ScaredyCat

 No all incoming calls are free in India and most handsets are sold without
 contract. This is a pay as you go (or prepaid) sim where they are willing
 to offer India Rupees 250/per month (1 USD=43 Indian rupees) for unlimited
 data and you can buy voice minuets as you like. what i meant by free
 incoming was that the sim will remain active for one year even if you dont
 buy any minuets at all and you can continue to receive free incoming calls
 for the entire year.

 The normal rate for unlimited data plan is between Indian Rupees Rs395-495
 + a basic rental of your contract (ranging between Rs 200 - 400 for normal
 users). Outgoing calls cost are extra.

 The Rs 250/month unlimited data was offered if we bundled their connection
 with the
 Freerunners we sold. At the moment we have no intentions of doing that as
 most of the early buyers form us will be developers but may offer it (or a
 better deal) as an *option *when mass market software is ready.

 Rakshat

Ahhh ok, thanks for clearing that up. My mistake.

-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat



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Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
Thanks for this enlightening post!

I'd wish this thread could fade now... 

:M:

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Shawn
My question is this: 
say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to ATT as my provider (as I plan 
to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a contract agreement 
anyway? Isn't that how you get the cheapest minute/plans? If thats the case, 
then yeah, it looks like the iPhone is cheaper for my situation. If you already 
have a mobile plan and do not intend to switch, then the freerunner is the way 
to go. . .

just my 2 cents. 


- Original Message 
From: ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 4:21:39 PM
Subject: Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

Robert Taylor wrote:
 Please, compare equal things.
 Why are you posting nonsense here?

Rob, I'm not the one who posted the original article, and I take offense 
to you saying that my thoughts are 'nonsense' -- that sort of attitude 
isn't helpful to anybody.

In a previous post, you said:
 The iPhone is godawful expensive no matter how you slice it.

In another, you said:
 The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko.

We're not talking about what's subsidized and what's not. We're 
comparing how much money have I paid out of my pocket after two years 
to compare a 2-year contract requirement versus owning a Freerunner.

While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm 
curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the 
Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've 
spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations.

-id


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Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Kalle Happonen
Michael Kluge wrote:
 7. Apple currently defines the PDA/mobile marketplace.
 

 No, the smartphone market is dominated by the Blackberry.
   
Dominate and define are different things. Blackberry might dominate 
(only in US though), but now Apple has the new cool thing, and every 
manufacturer from Samsung to Nokia make releases of similar models at 
the same time. So Apple does define the smartphone market for a given 
cusomer segment.

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Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Michele Renda
+1

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread robert lazarski
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 My question is this:
 say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to ATT as my provider (as I
 plan to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a contract
 agreement anyway? Isn't that how you get the cheapest minute/plans? If thats
 the case, then yeah, it looks like the iPhone is cheaper for my situation.
 If you already have a mobile plan and do not intend to switch, then the
 freerunner is the way to go. . .

 just my 2 cents.

Depends on the country and even more on personal preference. I
personally have never used a cell phone via a contract - I buy
pre-paid minutes, because I know what I'm spending that way. Plus the
contract terms are comparable to an EULA - scary stuff to this
individual.

In fact, in Brazil where I live its illegal to sell a blocked phone -
in no small part because those predatory telephone companies do
curious things on their bills and limit their services. I think
perhaps the USA is the odd ball in their locked way of doing
business, so ymmv.

I personally would find it ironic if I had an open source cell phone
but had to have a contract to use it - but that's just me. Would I be
paying extra on minutes? I only make about 10 minutes of calls a month
and a little more when I travel, but even if it made modest economic
sense, I prefer to pay more for my freedom. Sort of like paying more
for an unlocked openmoko rather than some comparable alternative - if
there's a choice, I'll pay more for freedom. Whether other people
would or wouldn't pay more for their freedom isn't an interesting
question to me - I simply don't care.

Robert

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Re:SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Joe Pfeiffer
ian douglas writes:
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
 when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
 unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.

TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and 
I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had 
an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card 
for it.

Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
giving me the phone...

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Ben Burdette
I plan on using my phone in VOIP mode as often as possible.  Since I use 
my phone most often at home, I'm hoping I'll be able to use far fewer 
minutes per month than normal.  That's when the pay-as-you-go SIM plan 
starts to really pay off - I don't have to pay for an artificial minimum 
of minutes that I won't use.  When I run out of minutes, I just buy 
more.  If I only talk on VOIP during the month, that's zero cost. 

Also, I hear that ATT is charging 10$ more per month for iphones over 
their normal plan fees, and even more if you are a business user.  So 
for a two year contract thats 240$.  And if you stay with ATT after 
that, you keep paying that same premium on into the future too.  If 
you're like me and you keep your smartphones for 4+ years, then that 
would be more like 480$ over the 199 initial outlay. 

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Vinc Duran
The local t-mobile store occasionally has a no extra charge (free I suppose)
quad band world phone from Motorola. I was thinking of getting that as a
spare.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 ian douglas writes:
 Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
  when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
  unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.
 
 TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and
 I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had
 an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card
 for it.

 Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
 phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
 giving me the phone...

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Ortwin Regel
Your calculations may well be correct for the awful situation in the
USA. In other parts of the world, this is drastically different!
Please keep that in mind.

Ortwin

On 6/11/08, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
 Just compare equal things.

 We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of equal.

 Hear me out:

 By my calculations below, a consumer buying an iPhone or a Freerunner,
 and using ATT for a voice/data plan, is going to spend about $2600 over
 two years no matter which phone they buy.

 Jorge's original posting in this thread said the following:
   the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will
   cost only $199 USD
 and
   now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms
   of price.

 He was asking about straight out-of-pocket expense, not about subsidies.
 The end consumer is only going to see the price tag on the phone itself.

 The consumer will look at the iPhone and see a price of $199.
 Then they'll look at the Freerunner and see a price tag of $399.

 If they choose the $199 iPhone, they get locked into a two year
 contract, likely paying $100 per month for a voice/data plan. Over 24
 months, their total cost is going to be about $2600.

 If they choose the $399 Freerunner, they aren't locked into a minimum 2
 year contract, but they'll still need monthly service for the same
 24-month period. As I mentioned in a previous message, a plain
 voice/data plan with ATT is still going to cost $90 or more depending
 on the plan you pick. After 24 months, they've still paid $2600.

 That looks pretty 'equal' to me, and *I* believe the average consumer
 will feel the same way. If you don't agree with that, then you and I
 simply don't agree on it, but that still doesn't warrant calling
 someone's communication nonsense simply because you don't agree with them.

 The Freerunner would perhaps be cheaper if the consumer buys pay as you
 go minutes/data instead of a monthly plan.
 The Freerunner would *definitely* be cheaper if they buy the iPhone and
 start buying applications through iTunes for their phone.

 If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying
 the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package
 and THEN we can talk.

 But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the
 iPhone. Just because ATT subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit
 they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service, the
 consumer isn't paying more for the phone since they'd still have to
 pay for the same voice/data service to use a Freerunner. It just means
 ATT makes more profit on the voice/data plan because they haven't
 subsidized anything.

 And you still haven't followed up with how you calculated the iPhone to
 cost 'twice' as much as the Freerunner.

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Lowell Higley
ATT in the US does offer SIMs without a phone.  However, you have to go
into a Corporate store.  The resellers generally won't or can't do this.  I
do not know, however, if they offer SIMs with contracts.  To my knowledge,
they only do this with pay as you go SIMs.

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:41 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
  when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
  unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.

 TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and
 I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had
 an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card
 for it.

 I'm sure ATT would do the same if you simply walk into the store and
 tell them you want to purchase a SIM card for an unlocked phone you
 already own, and that you just want the SIM card.

 -id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

2008-06-11 Thread Bastian Muck
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
 
You are totally right.At T-Mobile Germany you can reserve an iPhone 3G. 
You can only get it with an contract thant is far more expensive than 
comparable contracts of T-Mobile Germany. The cheapest (24 month-) 
contract Complete S  is 5 € more expensive than a comparable one. With 
this contract the price for the iPhone 3G with 8GB is249€.

So, now let's calculate:
5€ /month * 24 = 120 €
120+249 = 369 € = 574$

And this is not completle correct, cause in germany nearly every phone 
is subsidized. For my new contract without phone you can get between 150 
€ (233$) and 400 € (622$) at resellers. For a small contract like the 
one I used at the top it is around 200 €.

so we are around 569€ (884 $). I think this is everything but cheap.

Of course be careful with this calculation. But for a tendence is can be 
used.
And yet a little hint: the 16GB one will cost 499€ (776$) with contract 
(even with the expensive ones which go up to 90€(140$)/month).

I don't want to calculate the price of the iPhone, i just want to 
explain, that it does NOT cost 299$.

Greetings Bastian


Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) schrieb:
| On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:16:40 + Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
babbled:
|
| Robert Taylor wrote:
| On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.  
| If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than
| the $600 the phone is worth.
| The first iPhone was released june 29/2007 and the first hacked that 
allow
| you to use it with any operator was announced on july 9/2007. It will 
happen
| again and unlocked iPhones 3G will be available, it does not matter 
if the
| first bunch are stolen, second hand or refurbished, it short time 
everyone
| will be able to buy an iPhone 3G without contract for almost the same 
price
| than it contract. Then we will be able to compare unsubsidized 
iphones with
| moko. until that moment lets end the flame :-) but if I am right the 
iPhone
| will be cheaper even unsubsidized. (although i would buy a moko anyway)
|
| not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this
| happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it 
was assumed
| that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and 
apple bore
| the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (att). 
so they
| sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from att after that.
|
| now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure 
- you
| can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a
| contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract
| unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract 
termination
| clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the 
subsidy - of
| not completely cover it and then some.
|
| sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the 
factory or
| from shipments before they get to an apple or att or other carrier 
store, and
| some may be sold under the counter without contract - but i 
guarantee that
| that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a 
rebate
| once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean 
hey have
| to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money.
|
| as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT 
contract are
| going to be much more than $199.
|
| furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market 
and a
| freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and
| philosophy.
| This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing
| things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to
| be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid,
| it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and
| understand the reality of the situation.
|
| not equal value? Moko, iPhone, iRiver, Blackberry... we are talking about
| smartphones, and money is money. If you buy an orange, and apple or a 
pinable
| you pay with money!! every fruit have advantages and disadvantages, 
but you
| pay anyway
|
| _
| Do more with your photos with Windows Live Photo Gallery.
| http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_photos_022008
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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Stroller

On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

 ian douglas writes:
 Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
 when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
 unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.

 TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their  
 stores, and
 I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them  
 I had
 an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a  
 SIM card
 for it.

 Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
 phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
 giving me the phone...

Where the heck are you?

To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone  
is cheaper.

The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to  
pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of  
tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes  
for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can  
also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved.

Stroller.
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Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Michael Kluge
Kalle Happonen wrote:
 Michael Kluge wrote:
   
 7. Apple currently defines the PDA/mobile marketplace.
 
   
 No, the smartphone market is dominated by the Blackberry.
   
 
 Dominate and define are different things. Blackberry might dominate 
 (only in US though), but now Apple has the new cool thing, and every 
 manufacturer from Samsung to Nokia make releases of similar models at 
 the same time. So Apple does define the smartphone market for a given 
 cusomer segment.
   
Yes, I was talking about the *I use it for my business* market in the 
US. Correct.


Michael

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread Stroller

On 11 Jun 2008, at 13:55, Shawn wrote:

 My question is this:
 say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to ATT as my provider  
 (as I plan to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a  
 contract agreement anyway? Isn't that how you get the cheapest  
 minute/plans?

They may do it differently in the US (woah! Europe's market  
regulation might be good for the consumer!?!?!) but here in the UK  
the contract agreement is cheaper if you bring your own phone.

Sure, a contract gets you the cheapest minute/plans (as long as you  
use them), but there's cheapest and cheapest.

Here in the UK millions of people have old mobile phones they've  
already paid for, or on which the contract has already expired. Sure,  
they may go with O2 or Vodafone for their next contract because they  
get a free iPhone, but those existing unlocked phones don't get  
chucked in the landfill. So I go to Vodafone and say I've got this  
old phone that my brother's throwing away, and I'd like a contract  
please; if Vodafone only offer me a contract which includes a  
replacement phone then that new phone has to be paid for somehow in  
the terms of the contract; if I go to O2 instead and they say ok,  
you don't want a new phone then obviously they can make the contract  
cheaper.

I am staggered this seems to be so difficult, and I'm not sure  
whether it's that the carriers make it so difficult in some parts of  
the world, or simply that the concept is so difficult to some people.

Stroller.

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Shawn wrote:
 say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to ATT as my provider (as 
 I plan to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a contract 
 agreement anyway?

It varies, depending on who you talk to.

They typically need to lock you into a 2-year contract if they're 
subsidizing a phone.

Since the Freerunner isn't subsidized by them, they should give you the 
same rate, but not lock you into a two-year agreement.

-id

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
 ian douglas writes:
 TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and 
 I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had 
 an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card 
 for it.
 
 Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
 phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
 giving me the phone...

It was a pay-as-you-go SIM card, no contract required. Minutes are good 
for a year 9though I used up almost the entire block of 1,000 minutes 
doing talk time tests last month on the Freerunner.

-id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-11 Thread ian douglas
Ben Burdette wrote:
 Also, I hear that ATT is charging 10$ more per month for iphones over 
 their normal plan fees, and even more if you are a business user.

They raised the rate in general, even without picking a phone at 
attwireless.com, you can still see the basic unlimited data with 
limited SMS option is $30/month.

And yeah, they're charging business users $45/month for the same 
unlimited data plan, because it will include sync'ing to MS Exchange 
(like the Blackberry PDA's do), and the 50% premium is simply due to the 
fact that the 'push' technology will use more bandwidth.

-id


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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Joe Pfeiffer
Stroller writes:

On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

 Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
 phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
 giving me the phone...

Where the heck are you?

To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone  
is cheaper.

US.  To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone
*should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually
worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these
months as a result).

The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to  
pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of  
tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes  
for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can  
also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved.

I haven't seen anything like that here.  The plan costs what it costs;
you can pay varying amounts up front for different phones.

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Kevin Dean
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Stroller writes:

On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

 Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
 phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
 giving me the phone...

Where the heck are you?

To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone
is cheaper.

 US.  To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone
 *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually
 worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these
 months as a result).

I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious
that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service
(cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no
matter what phone you have.

In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of
PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the
service contract doesn't.



The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to
pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of
tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes
for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can
also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved.


Not sure if you're confusing cause and effect here or if Brits just
look at cellular service differently than Americans. You are
implying that the contract is the monthly service of voice/data
connectivity and a handset. In the US, ONLY the monthly service of
voice/data connectivity is contracted. It seems to me that what you're
ACTUALLY doing when you make your purchase is purchasing a phone at
some price, agreeing to a service level (monthly voice/data) and then
financing the cost of that device through your monthly bill. By paying
the £75 up front you're simply paying for the phone and NOT paying the
cost of it in installments monthly.

But from how I see it the service that is purchased (voice/data
connectivity) remains the same price.

 I haven't seen anything like that here.  The plan costs what it costs;
 you can pay varying amounts up front for different phones.

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Vinc Duran
News Flash! The US doesn't always make sense. I'm a United Statesian. I've
lived around and worked with Europeans for years and I'm always agreeing
that what we have doesn't seem sensible or doesn't appear thought out. It's
very screwy. It just is. :-)

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Stroller writes:
 
 On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
 
  Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
  phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
  giving me the phone...
 
 Where the heck are you?
 
 To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone
 is cheaper.

 US.  To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone
 *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually
 worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these
 months as a result).

 The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to
 pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of
 tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes
 for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can
 also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved.

 I haven't seen anything like that here.  The plan costs what it costs;
 you can pay varying amounts up front for different phones.

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Robert Taylor
Kevin Dean wrote:
 I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious
 that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service
 (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no
 matter what phone you have.

 In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of
 PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the
 service contract doesn't.

   
Which part of a portion of the contract pays for you phone ... phone 
ISN'T FREE, YOU ARE FINANCING THE PURCHASE OF THE PHONE VIA THE 
CONTRACT is hard to understand?

Why do americans have such a hard time grasping this?

Rob

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Joe Pfeiffer
Kevin Dean writes:
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 US.  To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone
 *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually
 worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these
 months as a result).

I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious
that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service
(cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no
matter what phone you have.

Because the price of the free phone is bundled into the price of the
contract.  If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one.

In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of
PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the
service contract doesn't.



The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to
pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of
tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes
for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can
also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved.


Not sure if you're confusing cause and effect here or if Brits just
look at cellular service differently than Americans. You are
implying that the contract is the monthly service of voice/data
connectivity and a handset. In the US, ONLY the monthly service of
voice/data connectivity is contracted. It seems to me that what you're
ACTUALLY doing when you make your purchase is purchasing a phone at
some price, agreeing to a service level (monthly voice/data) and then
financing the cost of that device through your monthly bill. By paying
the £75 up front you're simply paying for the phone and NOT paying the
cost of it in installments monthly.

But from how I see it the service that is purchased (voice/data
connectivity) remains the same price.

Not quite -- you're also committed to pay the inflated price long
enough to pay for the phone, or pay for the phone under the guise of
an early termination fee.

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Lowell Higley
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Kevin Dean writes:
 On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  US.  To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone
  *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually
  worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these
  months as a result).
 
 I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious
 that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service
 (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no
 matter what phone you have.

 Because the price of the free phone is bundled into the price of the
 contract.  If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one.

 In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of
 PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the
 service contract doesn't.
 
 
 
 The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to
 pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of
 tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes
 for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can
 also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved.
 
 
 Not sure if you're confusing cause and effect here or if Brits just
 look at cellular service differently than Americans. You are
 implying that the contract is the monthly service of voice/data
 connectivity and a handset. In the US, ONLY the monthly service of
 voice/data connectivity is contracted. It seems to me that what you're
 ACTUALLY doing when you make your purchase is purchasing a phone at
 some price, agreeing to a service level (monthly voice/data) and then
 financing the cost of that device through your monthly bill. By paying
 the £75 up front you're simply paying for the phone and NOT paying the
 cost of it in installments monthly.
 
 But from how I see it the service that is purchased (voice/data
 connectivity) remains the same price.

 Not quite -- you're also committed to pay the inflated price long
 enough to pay for the phone, or pay for the phone under the guise of
 an early termination fee.

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If I make an observation.. I am an American by birth but have lived all over
the world.. In the middle of the Pacific, Korea, and now Europe (again).
One of the things I have noticed is that the laws in Europe tend to protect
the consumer whereas the laws in the US tend to protect big business.  I
could give many examples but I think this whole contact vs. no contract
discussion is a perfect example. imho.

Just a personal observation... shoot me down if you like.
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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Kosa

 Why do americans have such a hard time grasping this?

 Rob
   
That's what I call starting a flame (from a flame)

Kosa

- Un mundo mejor es posible -

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Kevin Dean
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Robert Taylor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Kevin Dean wrote:
 I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious
 that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service
 (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no
 matter what phone you have.

 In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of
 PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the
 service contract doesn't.


 Which part of a portion of the contract pays for you phone ... phone
 ISN'T FREE, YOU ARE FINANCING THE PURCHASE OF THE PHONE VIA THE
 CONTRACT is hard to understand?

I understand that statement ENTIRELY. Now that we're done beating down
straw men, where have I ONCE mentioned anything about a free phone
(with the exception of the use of quoting a previous poster, in
responce to his use of the term) ?

I have not.

The average person walks into a cellular retailer, purchases a phone
(A phone that is clearly marked as costing, say $199) signs up for the
two year contract and recieves a discount on the phone and begins a
service subscription.

To say that he's getting a free phone is stupid - he got a $199 phone
as a bonus for signing up for a contractual service (a voluntary
service, by the way!). Did he pay for the phone? No. What he did was
reduce the phone company's profit margin by making them expend more
money in order to gain him as a customer of the recurring subscription
for vioce/data services.

If I walk into a retail outlet for my mobile service provider, I can
pay for a phone WITHOUT service - I get no credits or refunds from the
cellular provider. I pay for the phone.

I can also have my OWN phone and walk into a cellular service provider
and sign up for a contract of video/data service. The price I pay for
that service is the same as the price paid by the person who took the
discount on the phone. I am simply creating a higher profit revenue
for that company in the process.

-Kevin




 Why do americans have such a hard time grasping this?

 Rob

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Kevin Dean
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Because the price of the free phone is bundled into the price of the
 contract.

I don't think so. The only thing that changes in the deal is the
profit margin of the company. The costs of the mobile carrier also
indirectly include the costs of electricity but if I said I'm not
buying electricity from you so I shouldn't pay the mark up from
electricity I would just sound really really stupid. I'm well aware
that the mobile providers pays for the phone and as a cost of doing
business, charges more for their products.

  If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one.

Walk into T-Mobile or ATT and  buy a phone and sign up for a
contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in
your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same
contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll
see they're the same.

You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're
arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit
someone else's company is able to make on transactions.

 Not quite -- you're also committed to pay the inflated price long
 enough to pay for the phone,

And as long as that company pays taxes. And as long as that company
advertises. And as long as that company complies with minimum wage
laws.

I am aware that when a company spends money, in order to be profitable
they will reclaim those costs they will increase the price of their
products. I have no problem with a company making profit. In fact, I
would strongly PERFER it because companies that provide me services
tend to vanish when they don't make money.

 or pay for the phone under the guise of
 an early termination fee.

You entered into the contract of your own free will. Entering into
that contract is merely claiming that your word has value. Why do you
complain about agreeing to something and then being held to that
agreement? The terms are stated up front, if you find them
disagreeable negotiate the terms. If you can't, don't enter into the
agreement.

The termination fee covers the loss to the company's profit margin
when you fail to complete your payment agreement. They do this so that
it's easier for customers to get cellular service. The cost of putting
up towers, hiring support staff, providing them with bathrooms,
purchasing computers, hiring programmers and engineers and all of that
is not small. To recoup that cost, they need to make a certain amount
of money. Putting a phone in the hands of people who don't have phones
ALSO costs money, and they need to ensure that if that customer fails
to generate profit for them, they will not face a loss from doing
business with that customer.


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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Kevin Dean
Please note this is an OFF LIST reply, since it is off topic for
Openmoko mailing lists.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 If I make an observation.. I am an American by birth but have lived all over
 the world.. In the middle of the Pacific, Korea, and now Europe (again).
 One of the things I have noticed is that the laws in Europe tend to protect
 the consumer whereas the laws in the US tend to protect big business.

Why do you instantly assume there two sides are opposed to each other?
Now, let me say I agree that corporations (definition: a legal entity
recognized by the government for the purpose of shielding the
individual for personal responsibillity for their actions) are in
general a bad thing since it means if a person does something bad
while conducting business they don't suffer penalties. If, however, a
person running an honest business manages to be big, I see nothing
wrong at ALL with them.

Businesses (big AND small) provide services and products to people.
They don't use violence to get what they want (even Microsoft doesn't
send the police or military to your house for refusing to buy their
licenses). If people said I don't like how you conduct business and I
refuse to give you my money! those businesses (large and small) would
stop doing that thing because they want to stay in business!

 I could give many examples but I think this whole contact vs. no contract
 discussion is a perfect example. imho.

I was raised as a liberal Democrat. That said, I can sit back and
(with the best of them) argue the liberal perspective about how big
business takes advantage of the little guy/working class.

I was also raised to believe that I should question everything and not
accept what other people tell me without some proof. In EVERY
arguement against big business there is one key factor - the
government. How big might Microsoft be if the government (which
funds every government school and university in just about every
nation of the world) didn't pick teachers who demanded their
assignments be submitted in .doc format? How many business might exist
worldwide if the government didn't mandate licenses and zoning and all
kinds of other things that prevent people (who create wealth by simply
existing!) who have very little money from starting honest businesses
and earning money by providing services and goods to people? How many
deaths might be avoided if the government let people and their doctors
determine if a medication was safe enough for their specific
situation?


 Just a personal observation... shoot me down if you like.

I don't mean to shoot you down. I just find it disconcerning how many
people attack business owners, demand regulation which forces up
prices and reduces control and than blame businesses for increased
prices and decreased control. Hopefully some people will critically
evaluate things...



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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Joe Pfeiffer
This is splitting hairs at a level the attorneys I know would be
embarrassed to be a part of.

Kevin Dean writes:
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Robert Taylor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Kevin Dean wrote:
 I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious
 that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service
 (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no
 matter what phone you have.

 In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of
 PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the
 service contract doesn't.


 Which part of a portion of the contract pays for you phone ... phone
 ISN'T FREE, YOU ARE FINANCING THE PURCHASE OF THE PHONE VIA THE
 CONTRACT is hard to understand?

I understand that statement ENTIRELY. Now that we're done beating down
straw men, where have I ONCE mentioned anything about a free phone
(with the exception of the use of quoting a previous poster, in
responce to his use of the term) ?

I have not.

The average person walks into a cellular retailer, purchases a phone
(A phone that is clearly marked as costing, say $199) signs up for the
two year contract and recieves a discount on the phone and begins a
service subscription.

So far, so good.

To say that he's getting a free phone is stupid - he got a $199 phone

When I signed up with T-Mobile, the market value of the phone they
gave me wasn't displayed anywhere.  It was described as a *free*
phone.  I did read the contract; if it said it anywhere, it was
written in 1/2 point type around the margin like the Santa clause.

as a bonus for signing up for a contractual service (a voluntary
service, by the way!). Did he pay for the phone? No. What he did was
reduce the phone company's profit margin by making them expend more
money in order to gain him as a customer of the recurring subscription
for vioce/data services.

Making?  I don't think so.  I would have been happier if they'd
reduced their profit margin the same amount by letting me walk out of
the store with a naked SIM card and a lower monthly bill.  Not
allowing me that choice was entirely their decision.

If I walk into a retail outlet for my mobile service provider, I can
pay for a phone WITHOUT service - I get no credits or refunds from the
cellular provider. I pay for the phone.

Haven't tried it.  The local stores sure don't advertise that option,
and it doesn't really address whether I can buy a plan without a phone
(and not pay for the phone).

I can also have my OWN phone and walk into a cellular service provider
and sign up for a contract of video/data service. The price I pay for
that service is the same as the price paid by the person who took the
discount on the phone. I am simply creating a higher profit revenue
for that company in the process.

And you see this as something other than being forced* to pay for the
subsidized phone, without getting the phone?  Your logic escapes me.

*Using the term loosely.  I realize nobody is forcing me to have the
 contract at all -- but given that I want the contract, paying the
 phone subsidy isn't optional.

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Joe Pfeiffer
Kevin Dean writes:
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Because the price of the free phone is bundled into the price of the
 contract.

I don't think so. The only thing that changes in the deal is the
profit margin of the company. The costs of the mobile carrier also
indirectly include the costs of electricity but if I said I'm not
buying electricity from you so I shouldn't pay the mark up from
electricity I would just sound really really stupid. I'm well aware
that the mobile providers pays for the phone and as a cost of doing
business, charges more for their products.

Well, yes, you would -- they can't offer their service if they don't
buy electricity.  The can offer their service without buying the phone
they give me.

  If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one.

Walk into T-Mobile or ATT and  buy a phone and sign up for a
contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in
your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same
contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll
see they're the same.

That's my objection.

You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're
arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit
someone else's company is able to make on transactions.

Very close, but not exactly (I mentioned hair-splitting in my last
message).  They, of course, have the right to adopt any pricing
strategy they want, and they've done so.  I, of course, have the right
to argue that their strategy is not to the interest of this particular
consumer, on the grounds that they are bundling goods and services
together that I feel should be separate.  And I'm doing exactly that.

I feel like I'm back on my high school debating team.

 Not quite -- you're also committed to pay the inflated price long
 enough to pay for the phone,

And as long as that company pays taxes. And as long as that company
advertises. And as long as that company complies with minimum wage
laws.

Well, no.  Whether they comply with the law (including taxes etc) has
nothing whatever to do with how long I pay my contract.  One hopes
that their pricing structure enables them to do that, but it doesn't
appear anywhere on my bill.

I am aware that when a company spends money, in order to be profitable
they will reclaim those costs they will increase the price of their
products. I have no problem with a company making profit. In fact, I
would strongly PERFER it because companies that provide me services
tend to vanish when they don't make money.

Oh, yes, I want them to make money for exactly the reasons you state.
I don't want to pay for more of their profits than somebody who wants
a subsidized phone, however.

 or pay for the phone under the guise of
 an early termination fee.

You entered into the contract of your own free will. Entering into
that contract is merely claiming that your word has value. Why do you
complain about agreeing to something and then being held to that
agreement? The terms are stated up front, if you find them
disagreeable negotiate the terms. If you can't, don't enter into the
agreement.

There's a couple of issues being entangled here.  I don't object to
anything you state in your paragraph above.  I do object to the lack
of the option I prefer.

The termination fee covers the loss to the company's profit margin
when you fail to complete your payment agreement. They do this so that
it's easier for customers to get cellular service. The cost of putting
up towers, hiring support staff, providing them with bathrooms,
purchasing computers, hiring programmers and engineers and all of that
is not small. To recoup that cost, they need to make a certain amount
of money. Putting a phone in the hands of people who don't have phones
ALSO costs money, and they need to ensure that if that customer fails
to generate profit for them, they will not face a loss from doing
business with that customer.

Yes, yes, yes.  I really do understand all that.  It has nothing
whatever to do with whether a customer really ought to be able to pay
less to get a SIM card with no phone than a SIM card with phone.


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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

2008-06-11 Thread Lowell Higley
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Please note this is an OFF LIST reply, since it is off topic for
 Openmoko mailing lists.


Huh?  I agree, this is off topic but your reply did go out to the entire
list.



 On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  If I make an observation.. I am an American by birth but have lived all
 over
  the world.. In the middle of the Pacific, Korea, and now Europe (again).
  One of the things I have noticed is that the laws in Europe tend to
 protect
  the consumer whereas the laws in the US tend to protect big business.

 Why do you instantly assume there two sides are opposed to each other?
 Now, let me say I agree that corporations (definition: a legal entity
 recognized by the government for the purpose of shielding the
 individual for personal responsibillity for their actions) are in
 general a bad thing since it means if a person does something bad
 while conducting business they don't suffer penalties. If, however, a
 person running an honest business manages to be big, I see nothing
 wrong at ALL with them.


 Businesses (big AND small) provide services and products to people.
 They don't use violence to get what they want (even Microsoft doesn't
 send the police or military to your house for refusing to buy their
 licenses). If people said I don't like how you conduct business and I
 refuse to give you my money! those businesses (large and small) would
 stop doing that thing because they want to stay in business!


First, the observation was a generalization.. notice the word tend.  No
assumptions were made.  No one said the two sides were opposed.  If that
is something you drew from the observation then I think that is something
you added...not me.  Again, notice the words tend to.  Nothing is absolute
nor did I infer it was. Perhaps I should have used the verbage laws tend to
favor and not protect?  Would that make a difference?



  I could give many examples but I think this whole contact vs. no
 contract
  discussion is a perfect example. imho.

 I was raised as a liberal Democrat. That said, I can sit back and
 (with the best of them) argue the liberal perspective about how big
 business takes advantage of the little guy/working class.

 I was also raised to believe that I should question everything and not
 accept what other people tell me without some proof. In EVERY
 arguement against big business there is one key factor - the
 government. How big might Microsoft be if the government (which
 funds every government school and university in just about every
 nation of the world) didn't pick teachers who demanded their
 assignments be submitted in .doc format? How many business might exist
 worldwide if the government didn't mandate licenses and zoning and all
 kinds of other things that prevent people (who create wealth by simply
 existing!) who have very little money from starting honest businesses
 and earning money by providing services and goods to people? How many
 deaths might be avoided if the government let people and their doctors
 determine if a medication was safe enough for their specific
 situation?


No one has asked you to accept anything.   It was merely a personal
observation.  It was not some sort of law or edict I came down from the
hills with to force on anyone. If you want evidence of why I believe my
observation is correct, I'd be happy to share them with you. However, I
don't think this is the time or place for it.


 
  Just a personal observation... shoot me down if you like.

 I don't mean to shoot you down. I just find it disconcerning how many
 people attack business owners, demand regulation which forces up
 prices and reduces control and than blame businesses for increased
 prices and decreased control. Hopefully some people will critically
 evaluate things...


No one attacked business owners.  I merely pointed out a difference *I*
believe exists in the laws between the US and Europe.  Not once did I ever
say business(es), big or small, was doing anything wrong in either the US or
Europe.  Again, if you would like I will share with you why I believe my
observation is true... I could also point out why I think both systems is
good for consumers and business alike (they would obviously be different
lists). However, I don't think it is appropriate to post to the list because
it is wildly off topic, as you previously highlighted.

Sometimes I think messages on this list get blown way out of proportion.
Right now, I believe that is the case with this entire thread.  If I
offended anyone with my observation, I apologize, that was not my intent.


 
 
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Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Jorge .

Hello everyone,

I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows 
their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy 
an openmoko is the freedom.

But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost 
only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, because 
they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many possible 
buyers, for purely economical reasons.

I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now the 
FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price.


Best wishes



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Jorge . wrote:
 Hello everyone,

 I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows 
 their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy 
 an openmoko is the freedom.

 But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost 
 only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, 
 because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many 
 possible buyers, for purely economical reasons.

 I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now 
 the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price.


 Best wishes



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No, it won't make the Moko more expensive.

You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year 
contract minimum.

The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko.

In other words, if the Moko came with a 2 year contract it would 
basically be free.

Please actually compare apples to apples.

- Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread ian douglas
Robert Taylor wrote:
 You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year 
 contract minimum.

Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost, 
because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400 
($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also 
helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.

And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to 
sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still 
paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of 
the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay 
for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of 
going to Apple to help pay for the hardware.

Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price 
of their phones to lock you into a contract.

Just my $0.02.

What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the 
freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has 
their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple 
to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to 
build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their 
mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to 
do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that 
come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots 
of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a 
community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on 
OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software.

That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price.

-id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Federico Lorenzi
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello everyone,

 I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows 
 their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy 
 an openmoko is the freedom.

 But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost 
 only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, 
 because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many 
 possible buyers, for purely economical reasons.


*sigh*
The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized
through a 2 year ATT contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs
nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract.

Cheers,
Federico

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread ian douglas
Federico Lorenzi wrote:
 The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized
 through a 2 year ATT contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs
 nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract.


... and per my last Email, the lack of subsidies for the Freerunner, 
where you still need a voice/data contract, actually costs more.

But the extra cost is worth the freedom of doing whatever I want with my 
Freerunner.

-id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Ortwin Regel
What the hell?! Seems like a lot of people STILL don't get it:
The iPhone does NOT cost 199$.
It's a marketing lie. The actual price is 199$ + a two year contract.
That makes it probably closer to 1000$. The Neo is still very very
cheap compared to that, especially considering how few Neo phones are
being made at the moment.

Ortwin

On 6/10/08, Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello everyone,

 I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows
 their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to
 buy an openmoko is the freedom.

 But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost
 only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive,
 because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many
 possible buyers, for purely economical reasons.

 I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now
 the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price.


 Best wishes



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Ortwin Regel
There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.

Ortwin

On 6/10/08, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
 You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year
 contract minimum.

 Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost,
 because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400
 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also
 helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.

 And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to
 sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still
 paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of
 the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay
 for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of
 going to Apple to help pay for the hardware.

 Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price
 of their phones to lock you into a contract.

 Just my $0.02.

 What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the
 freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has
 their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple
 to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to
 build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their
 mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to
 do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that
 come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots
 of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a
 community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on
 OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software.

 That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price.

 -id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Dave O'Connor

You've forgotten about the extra grand and a half in contract charges. 
(that's just in the US, I hate to think what they'll be like here in 
Canada).

Seems inexpensive to me :)

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Jorge . wrote:


 Hello everyone,

 I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows 
 their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy 
 an openmoko is the freedom.

 But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost 
 only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, 
 because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many 
 possible buyers, for purely economical reasons.

 I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now 
 the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price.


 Best wishes



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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Jorge .

 *sigh*
 The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized
 through a 2 year ATT contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs
 nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract.
 

Just look Ebay, amazon, etc...  you can buy unlocked iPhones for almost the 
price they have with ATT, in fact there is no ATT in my country, an i could 
buy one on many shops in the downtown (dont misunderstand me, i want the 
FreeRunner!!).

I am sure it will happen again with the iPhone 3G
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Ortwin Regel wrote:
 There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
 Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
 godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
 monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
 the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.

 Ortwin

   
Same here.  The iPhone is godawful expensive no matter how you slice it.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread john
Yeh it is all relative to your country and usage pattern. In the UK
you can get a prepaid SIM with data capped at £1 per day. I don't need
a contract (I don't make many calls/sms) so the cost of the Freerunner
is a lot more attractive to me! Especially at it seems Apple will now
make you activate the phone on purchase eliminating cracking and
sticking in your prepaid SIM which is what many did with the current
model.

John.

2008/6/10 Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
 Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
 godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
 monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
 the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.

 Ortwin

 On 6/10/08, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
 You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year
 contract minimum.

 Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost,
 because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400
 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also
 helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.

 And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to
 sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still
 paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of
 the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay
 for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of
 going to Apple to help pay for the hardware.

 Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price
 of their phones to lock you into a contract.

 Just my $0.02.

 What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the
 freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has
 their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple
 to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to
 build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their
 mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to
 do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that
 come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots
 of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a
 community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on
 OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software.

 That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price.

 -id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Lally Singh
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
 Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
 godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
 monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
 the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.


Good for you.  It's not the case for others.  I'm going to have a cell
phone for the next 2 years, and prepaid plans cost me plenty when I
add in things like text messaging and data.  Atop of that, my family
has 10,000 rollover minutes just sitting there.  For me, it'd be
$40/month to jump on that plan, and $200 for the phone.

The monthly fee is fairly constant, no matter where I go (and probably
higher outside of ATT than in), and the 2 year contract is irrelevant
(I'll be using a phone for the next 2 yrs, and in the US a contract is
pretty standard), so it really does just come down to $200 vs whatever
another phone costs.

Sheesh.  We get it, we just don't care.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Jorge . wrote:
 Just look Ebay, amazon, etc...  you can buy unlocked iPhones for almost the 
 price they have with ATT, in fact there is no ATT in my country, an i could 
 buy one on many shops in the downtown (dont misunderstand me, i want the 
 FreeRunner!!).

 I am sure it will happen again with the iPhone 3G
 _
   
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Federico Lorenzi
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 *sigh*
 The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized
 through a 2 year ATT contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs
 nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract.


 Just look Ebay, amazon, etc...  you can buy unlocked iPhones for almost the 
 price they have with ATT, in fact there is no ATT in my country, an i could 
 buy one on many shops in the downtown (dont misunderstand me, i want the 
 FreeRunner!!).

 I am sure it will happen again with the iPhone 3G
No, it won't. When you buy a 3G iPhone, you will actually have to take
out a contract there and then at the Apple store. It's not like how it
was before when anyone could buy it, and just bypass activation. They
will not sell you an iPhone unless you take out a contract.

Cheers,
Federico

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Lowell Higley
I think what Ian is trying to say is that contract or not, you still have to
pay for your phone service and data service.  So if you spend US$50/mo on a
data plan, it does come out to be more expensive with the FreeRunner if and
*only if* you plan to use the phone for two years.  if you plan on ditching
it in a year, then the FreeRunner is much cheaper (you have that contract
buy out fee).

Thankfully, I have a pay as go SIM card that allows me to use GPRS.  I pay
about 10 Euros (US$15) a month with my current total usage (voice and
data).  Somehow I see that going way up when I get the FreeRunner just with
the data I'll be using.  I pay roughly 4 Euro Cents per 10kb.  In this case,
the iPhone is way more expensive than an iPhone.

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 You've forgotten about the extra grand and a half in contract charges.
 (that's just in the US, I hate to think what they'll be like here in
 Canada).

 Seems inexpensive to me :)

 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Jorge . wrote:

 
  Hello everyone,
 
  I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone
 knows their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason
 to buy an openmoko is the freedom.
 
  But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will
 cost only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive,
 because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many
 possible buyers, for purely economical reasons.
 
  I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but
 now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price.
 
 
  Best wishes
 
 
 
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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Jorge .

 Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost, 
 because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400 
 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also 
 helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.

No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet 
and they dont cost $960
 
 What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the 
 freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has 
 their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple 
 to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to 
 build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their 
 mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to 
 do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that 
 come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. 

Of course, thats why I want a FreeRunner!! but in the next months surely you 
can buy an unlocked iPhone 3G on ebay or the chinatown for $200 USD, and it 
affects the sales of FreeRunner, remember that GT02 is designed for mass 
production, not only for geeks like us who love free software


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread ian douglas
Lowell Higley wrote:
 I think what Ian is trying to say is that contract or not, you still 
 have to pay for your phone service and data service.

Exactly.

Whether you get the iPhone, a Freerunner, a Nokia, a Samsung, 
whatever... you still need to pay for the cellular service.

Yes, it's cheaper if you buy pay-as-you-go service, and yes, if you buy 
the 'locked' iPhone (retail box from ATT) you *must* buy into a contract.

My point was basically that if you want to use a lot of voice/data on 
the Freerunner, you're probably going to spend the same dollar amount on 
the voice/data plan as you would with the iPhone, so in that case, yes, 
the iPhone is cheaper.

If you can manage everything you do only on pay-as-you-go service, then 
it's possible that the Freerunner will be cheaper after two years.

-id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Marcus Bauer
On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 13:15 -0700, Lowell Higley wrote:

 In this case, the iPhone is way more expensive than an iPhone.
 ^^^

  I always knew there is some conspiracy going on with Apple ;-p




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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Greg Bonett

 ... and per my last Email, the lack of subsidies for the Freerunner,
 where you still need a voice/data contract, actually costs more.

 But the extra cost is worth the freedom of doing whatever I want with my
 Freerunner.

 -id

Don't forget you've always got the option to use the Freerunner without a
voice/data plan at all if you don't mind only using VOIP in Wifi networks.
 Then its a bargain!

-Greg


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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

2008-06-10 Thread Jorge .

Hello,

This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in order:

1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about the 
good reasons to buy one :)

2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G will 
be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone.

3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an 
iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones and 
selling them without ATT contracts around the world (check ebay before telling 
again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for that phones 
anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without any contract 
around the world, and for most people does not matter if this is legal or not. 

4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a Freerunner 
instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people would prefer to 
buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 than an OpenMoko for 
$399. am I clear enough?

furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a 
freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and philosophy. 


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Jorge . wrote:
 No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet 
 and they dont cost $960
  
   
Thats ONLY because you can buy an iPhone right now WITHOUT a contract. 

You won't be getting the same phoen pricing with the new iPhone, that is 
guaranteed - to break a contract you will pay the penalty which will be 
greater than the iPhone is worth to begin with.

You aren't comparing apples to apples still.

- Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread ian douglas
Jorge . wrote:
 No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet 
 and they dont cost $960

You're right, an unlocked iPhone will likely cost more than $199 (for 
the 8GB model), but you still need to have the data/voice plan. If *all* 
you're comparing is the cost of the phone hardware, then you'd have to 
find out how much an iPhone actually costs ATT to purchase from Apple.

We're all arguing the same thing, just from different perspectives.

At the end of the day, you still need to buy voice/data service, whether 
you buy a Freerunner or iPhone. Since, from the sounds of it, you cannot 
(yet) buy the iPhone on a pay-as-you-go service, it's likely that the 
Freerunner will be a cheaper alternative, but ONLY when using a 
pay-as-you-go service. (at least here in the US)

But if you're going to buy into a voice/data plan, you're going to 
ultimately spend more cash on the Freerunner:

For example, I pay $39.99/month for 450 daytime minutes and 5000 
evening/weekend minutes every month. I pay an additional $39.99 per 
month for an unlimited data plan. My total monthly cost is $79.98 plus 
taxes and fees, so let's round it up to $90 per month. Over the course 
of two years, my $90/month totals $2,160.

If I buy an iPhone, my total cost after two years is $199 plus $2160, or 
$2359.
If I buy a Freerunner, my total cost after two years is $399 plus $2160, 
or $2558. If I manage to get in on a group sale, my total cost after two 
years drops $30.

So if you plan to get on a monthly voice/data plan with ATT here in the 
USA, yes, the iPhone will be cheaper after a two year period is over.

Of course, if you start buying iPhone apps from iTunes over the two year 
period, then the iPhone could quickly become much more expensive than 
the Freerunner.

My point in the last few Emails is that the extra $200 (or $170 on a 
group sale), is worth it to me to have a completely unlocked phone where 
I can write and manage my own applications, have industry-accepted 
open-source programs ported to run on the Freerunner, have those 
applications for free, etc.

-id


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
ian douglas wrote:

 Exactly.

 Whether you get the iPhone, a Freerunner, a Nokia, a Samsung, 
 whatever... you still need to pay for the cellular service.

 Yes, it's cheaper if you buy pay-as-you-go service, and yes, if you buy 
 the 'locked' iPhone (retail box from ATT) you *must* buy into a contract.
   
Sorry, to clarify.

To clear up my previous post you are comparing to different things:

A $600 SUBSIDIZED phone on a 2 year contract ($200 up front cost to 
subscriber) VS a $200 moko UNSUBSIDIZED phone PLUS a 2 year contract.

Of course they are bloody the same price up front, THE MOKO ISN'T 
SUBSIDIZED.

Please, compare equal things.

If you want to compare a subsidized iPhone then compare a subsidized 
moko which will be free with any reasonable access plan.

The moko is cheaper PERIOD and you won't be getting the new iPhones on 
ebay for 200 quid because YOU CAN'T BUY THEM WITHOUT A CONTRACT.

If you want to buy a $600 dollar subsidized phone, fine go ahead.  Why 
are you posting nonsense here?

Goddamn.  You guys make it really hard not to flame everyone on such 
simple calculations.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread ian douglas
Greg Bonett wrote:
 Don't forget you've always got the option to use the Freerunner without a
 voice/data plan at all if you don't mind only using VOIP in Wifi networks.
  Then its a bargain!


Excellent point, Greg!

(I don't recall if the new iPhone has WiFi to do VoIP calls)

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread john
Are you sure about that? According to Engadget [1] you will have to
activate the contract in shop which seems to suggest a pretty bum deal
if you plan on then unlocking it and selling it at $200. If you do I
will buy one from you at that price ;)

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/iphone-3g-purchase-and-activation-will-be-in-store-only/

2008/6/10 Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
[snip]

 Of course, thats why I want a FreeRunner!! but in the next months surely you 
 can buy an unlocked iPhone 3G on ebay or the chinatown for $200 USD, and it 
 affects the sales of FreeRunner, remember that GT02 is designed for mass 
 production, not only for geeks like us who love free software


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread ian douglas
Robert Taylor wrote:
 Please, compare equal things.
 Why are you posting nonsense here?

Rob, I'm not the one who posted the original article, and I take offense 
to you saying that my thoughts are 'nonsense' -- that sort of attitude 
isn't helpful to anybody.

In a previous post, you said:
  The iPhone is godawful expensive no matter how you slice it.

In another, you said:
  The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko.

We're not talking about what's subsidized and what's not. We're 
comparing how much money have I paid out of my pocket after two years 
to compare a 2-year contract requirement versus owning a Freerunner.

While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm 
curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the 
Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've 
spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations.

-id


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Jorge . wrote:
 Hello,

 This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in 
 order:
   
Okay.
 1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about the 
 good reasons to buy one :)
   
Right!
 2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G 
 will be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone.
   
Not true, the iphone is subsidized the moko isn't.  If the moko was 
subsidized it would be free.  This is TRUE FOR EVERYONE.
 3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an 
 iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones 
 and selling them without ATT contracts around the world (check ebay before 
 telling again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for 
 that phones anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without 
 any contract around the world, and for most people does not matter if this is 
 legal or not. 
   
Again, not true.  On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.  
If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than 
the $600 the phone is worth.

If you want to go ahead and throw away $600 bucks at the break of a 
contract and sell it on ebay go ahead.  Just stop posting nonsense.
 4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a 
 Freerunner instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people 
 would prefer to buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 
 than an OpenMoko for $399. am I clear enough?
   
Not  clear at all.  If you were there would be no thread.  If you want 
to compare apples to apples, compare a subsidized iphone to a subsized 
moko, or unsubsidized iphone to an unsubsidized moko.

There is NO POSSIBILITY of exception to this.  Just because a moko is 
not available as a subsidized device right now is irrelevant as its not 
available on the market.  More to the point the new iphone isn't 
available yet, just pricing.
 furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a 
 freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and 
 philosophy. 
   
This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing 
things that are not of equal value.  While it is fine for consumers to 
be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, 
it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and 
understand the reality of the situation.

Just compare equal things and stop posting flawed arguments and there is 
no thread.

 Best wishes
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

2008-06-10 Thread john
As someone who owns an unlocked iPhone I understand how 3) works on
the old iPhone. What is not clear is the deal on the new iPhone. The
reports are that the person who buys it will have to enter the
contract when they buy it. Note, this is different than 3). The
reality is we don't know for sure what will happen in the different
regions yet. Therefore it is not as clear as you state.

John.

2008/6/10 Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Hello,

 This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in 
 order:

 1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about the 
 good reasons to buy one :)

 2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G 
 will be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone.

 3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an 
 iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones 
 and selling them without ATT contracts around the world (check ebay before 
 telling again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for 
 that phones anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without 
 any contract around the world, and for most people does not matter if this is 
 legal or not.

 4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a 
 Freerunner instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people 
 would prefer to buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 
 than an OpenMoko for $399. am I clear enough?

 furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a 
 freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and 
 philosophy.


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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Dave O'Connor
The software is Free, the hardware is Free but not in the beer sense. 
Look, if om don't make enough money there is no gta04. It has shortcomings 
but it's still much better an idea than the iphone. Your software will be 
free, no 30% cut for developers to go to apple. Your abilities to use the 
device are free. It's a trade off, pay now or pay later through being 
locked down or having to give your developer cut to apple. Your choice.


On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Jorge . wrote:


 Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost,
 because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400
 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also
 helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.

 No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet 
 and they dont cost $960

 What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the
 freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has
 their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple
 to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to
 build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their
 mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to
 do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that
 come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things.

 Of course, thats why I want a FreeRunner!! but in the next months surely you 
 can buy an unlocked iPhone 3G on ebay or the chinatown for $200 USD, and it 
 affects the sales of FreeRunner, remember that GT02 is designed for mass 
 production, not only for geeks like us who love free software


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Lowell Higley
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 A $600 SUBSIDIZED phone on a 2 year contract ($200 up front cost to
 subscriber) VS a $200 moko UNSUBSIDIZED phone PLUS a 2 year contract.

 Of course they are bloody the same price up front, THE MOKO ISN'T
 SUBSIDIZED.



Moko phone $200?!?!?!  Did I miss something? crossing fingers
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
ian douglas wrote:

 alking about what's subsidized and what's not. We're 
 comparing how much money have I paid out of my pocket after two years 
 to compare a 2-year contract requirement versus owning a Freerunner.

   
Well yes we are.

If the moko was subsidized it would effectively be free. 

Just compare equal things. 

The moko isnt' available as part of a subsidized package and according 
to postings it will take at least a year to get there.

Just stop comparing unequal things.

If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying 
the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package 
and THEN we can talk.

Stop talking nonsense please.

Rob

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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Jorge .

Is what they always say, like microsoft saying their serial codes will not be 
hacked... but after one week someone finds a hack that activates the phone 
without ATT and two weeks after you see unlocked phones in the street, i have 
no idea where the dealers get them, but you find the unlocked phones just a 
little more expensive than the phones in contract, and when the situation is 
out of control, Apple starts selling phones without contract... I am not 
guessing, it happened with the first generation of iPhones

 

 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:07:07 +0100
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: community@lists.openmoko.org
 Subject: Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
 
 Are you sure about that? According to Engadget [1] you will have to
 activate the contract in shop which seems to suggest a pretty bum deal
 if you plan on then unlocking it and selling it at $200. If you do I
 will buy one from you at that price ;)
 
 http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/iphone-3g-purchase-and-activation-will-be-in-store-only/
 
 2008/6/10 Jorge . :
 [snip]

 Of course, thats why I want a FreeRunner!! but in the next months surely you 
 can buy an unlocked iPhone 3G on ebay or the chinatown for $200 USD, and it 
 affects the sales of FreeRunner, remember that GT02 is designed for mass 
 production, not only for geeks like us who love free software


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Michael T. Dean
On 06/10/2008 06:21 PM, ian douglas wrote:
 While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm 
 curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the 
 Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've 
 spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations.

Well, ATT says that the new subsidy will cost them $600M.  So, I assume 
he just divided that figure by the total number of these new iPhones 
that ATT will ever sell and added that to the $199 (with contract) 
consumer price for the new iPhone.  ;)

http://news.smh.com.au/technology/att-to-take-earnings-hit-from-iphone-subsidies-20080610-2o3s.html

Mike

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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

2008-06-10 Thread Jorge .

Robert Taylor wrote:
 On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.  
 If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than 
 the $600 the phone is worth.

The first iPhone was released june 29/2007 and the first hacked that allow you 
to use it with any operator was announced on july 9/2007. It will happen again 
and unlocked iPhones 3G will be available, it does not matter if the first 
bunch are stolen, second hand or refurbished, it short time everyone will be 
able to buy an iPhone 3G without contract for almost the same price than it 
contract. Then we will be able to compare unsubsidized iphones with moko. until 
that moment lets end the flame :-) but if I am right the iPhone will be cheaper 
even unsubsidized. (although i would buy a moko anyway)


 furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a 
 freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and 
 philosophy. 

  This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing 
 things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to 
 be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, 
 it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and 
 understand the reality of the situation.


not equal value? Moko, iPhone, iRiver, Blackberry... we are talking about 
smartphones, and money is money. If you buy an orange, and apple or a pinable 
you pay with money!! every fruit have advantages and disadvantages, but you pay 
anyway

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Michael T. Dean wrote:
 On 06/10/2008 06:21 PM, ian douglas wrote:
   
 While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm 
 curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the 
 Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've 
 spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations.
 
Are you serious?

Here, how about this calculation:  BUY THE NEW IPHONE SEPARATELY then 
add it to your monthly bill.  Thats how.

The moko isn't subsidized, if it were then you would be comparing the 
following:

$199 + contract vs $0 + plus contract.

Please stop comparing nonsensical situations.

Robert

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Piotr Duda


ian douglas pisze:
[...]
 For example, I pay $39.99/month for 450 daytime minutes and 5000 
 evening/weekend minutes every month. I pay an additional $39.99 per 
 month for an unlimited data plan. My total monthly cost is $79.98 plus 
 taxes and fees, so let's round it up to $90 per month. Over the course 
 of two years, my $90/month totals $2,160.
 
[...]
I cant believe that there is no cheaper plans when you are not buying
any phone with it? is this really a case? if it is so, blame your
operator/us mobile market/god or all of them... here in old Europe you
can buy plans which are significantly cheaper where you not buying
a new phone with it...


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

2008-06-10 Thread ramsesoriginal
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Robert Taylor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jorge . wrote:
 Hello,

 This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in 
 order:

 Okay.
 1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about 
 the good reasons to buy one :)

 Right!
 2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G 
 will be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone.

 Not true, the iphone is subsidized the moko isn't.  If the moko was
 subsidized it would be free.  This is TRUE FOR EVERYONE.
 3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an 
 iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones 
 and selling them without ATT contracts around the world (check ebay before 
 telling again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for 
 that phones anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without 
 any contract around the world, and for most people does not matter if this 
 is legal or not.

 Again, not true.  On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.
 If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than
 the $600 the phone is worth.

I am sorry for contraddicting, but you can get jailbraked iPhones for
around 200$,and the firmware of the 2.0 is already jailbraked since
some time, and even futher, some people are already trying to compil
linux for the iPhone 2.0.


 If you want to go ahead and throw away $600 bucks at the break of a
 contract and sell it on ebay go ahead.  Just stop posting nonsense.
 4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a 
 Freerunner instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people 
 would prefer to buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 
 than an OpenMoko for $399. am I clear enough?

 Not  clear at all.  If you were there would be no thread.  If you want
 to compare apples to apples, compare a subsidized iphone to a subsized
 moko, or unsubsidized iphone to an unsubsidized moko.

 There is NO POSSIBILITY of exception to this.  Just because a moko is
 not available as a subsidized device right now is irrelevant as its not
 available on the market.  More to the point the new iphone isn't
 available yet, just pricing.
 furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a 
 freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and 
 philosophy.

 This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing
 things that are not of equal value.  While it is fine for consumers to
 be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid,
 it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and
 understand the reality of the situation.

 Just compare equal things and stop posting flawed arguments and there is
 no thread.

 Best wishes
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:57:04 -0700 Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 ian douglas wrote:
 
  Exactly.
 
  Whether you get the iPhone, a Freerunner, a Nokia, a Samsung, 
  whatever... you still need to pay for the cellular service.
 
  Yes, it's cheaper if you buy pay-as-you-go service, and yes, if you buy 
  the 'locked' iPhone (retail box from ATT) you *must* buy into a contract.

 Sorry, to clarify.
 
 To clear up my previous post you are comparing to different things:
 
 A $600 SUBSIDIZED phone on a 2 year contract ($200 up front cost to 
 subscriber) VS a $200 moko UNSUBSIDIZED phone PLUS a 2 year contract.
 
 Of course they are bloody the same price up front, THE MOKO ISN'T 
 SUBSIDIZED.
 
 Please, compare equal things.
 
 If you want to compare a subsidized iPhone then compare a subsidized 
 moko which will be free with any reasonable access plan.

slight catch. a subsidised neo likely wouldn't be open. subsidies are given to
phones because they get locked down to:

only work on that operators network
disable features so people must use the operator to send/get data
only allow software bought from your operator to run
etc. etc.

i'm not saying these are specifically happening on specific phones, but this
kind of thing is what gets a phone subsidised down to $0. a freerunner
subsidised would now cramp your style (freedom). do you REALLY want that? :) so
in the end the only thing you can do is compare it to a full-priced iphone or
any other competition that is not locked down in any way by/to a carrier. then
you can compare. :)

 The moko is cheaper PERIOD and you won't be getting the new iPhones on 
 ebay for 200 quid because YOU CAN'T BUY THEM WITHOUT A CONTRACT.
 
 If you want to buy a $600 dollar subsidized phone, fine go ahead.  Why 
 are you posting nonsense here?
 
 Goddamn.  You guys make it really hard not to flame everyone on such 
 simple calculations.
 
 Rob
 
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:56:44 -0700 ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 Robert Taylor wrote:
  You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year 
  contract minimum.
 
 Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost, 
 because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400 
 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also 
 helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.
 
 And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to 
 sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still 
 paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of 
 the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay 
 for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of 
 going to Apple to help pay for the hardware.
 
 Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price 
 of their phones to lock you into a contract.
 
 Just my $0.02.
 
 What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the 
 freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has 
 their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple 
 to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to 
 build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their 
 mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to 
 do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that 
 come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots 
 of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a 
 community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on 
 OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software.
 
 That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price.

this is mostly thanks to the fact that carriers in the usa have no options of
byo (bring your own) handset. they always subsidise something and thus have
it built into their pricing model. other carriers elsewhere in the world have
different prices if all you do is buy a sim card... :)


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread ian douglas
Robert Taylor wrote:
 Just compare equal things. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of equal.

Hear me out:

By my calculations below, a consumer buying an iPhone or a Freerunner, 
and using ATT for a voice/data plan, is going to spend about $2600 over 
two years no matter which phone they buy.

Jorge's original posting in this thread said the following:
  the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will
  cost only $199 USD
and
  now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms
  of price.

He was asking about straight out-of-pocket expense, not about subsidies. 
The end consumer is only going to see the price tag on the phone itself.

The consumer will look at the iPhone and see a price of $199.
Then they'll look at the Freerunner and see a price tag of $399.

If they choose the $199 iPhone, they get locked into a two year 
contract, likely paying $100 per month for a voice/data plan. Over 24 
months, their total cost is going to be about $2600.

If they choose the $399 Freerunner, they aren't locked into a minimum 2 
year contract, but they'll still need monthly service for the same 
24-month period. As I mentioned in a previous message, a plain 
voice/data plan with ATT is still going to cost $90 or more depending 
on the plan you pick. After 24 months, they've still paid $2600.

That looks pretty 'equal' to me, and *I* believe the average consumer 
will feel the same way. If you don't agree with that, then you and I 
simply don't agree on it, but that still doesn't warrant calling 
someone's communication nonsense simply because you don't agree with them.

The Freerunner would perhaps be cheaper if the consumer buys pay as you 
go minutes/data instead of a monthly plan.
The Freerunner would *definitely* be cheaper if they buy the iPhone and 
start buying applications through iTunes for their phone.

 If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying 
 the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package 
 and THEN we can talk.

But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the 
iPhone. Just because ATT subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit 
they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service, the 
consumer isn't paying more for the phone since they'd still have to 
pay for the same voice/data service to use a Freerunner. It just means 
ATT makes more profit on the voice/data plan because they haven't 
subsidized anything.

And you still haven't followed up with how you calculated the iPhone to 
cost 'twice' as much as the Freerunner.

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:16:40 + Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 
 Robert Taylor wrote:
  On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.  
  If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than 
  the $600 the phone is worth.
 
 The first iPhone was released june 29/2007 and the first hacked that allow
 you to use it with any operator was announced on july 9/2007. It will happen
 again and unlocked iPhones 3G will be available, it does not matter if the
 first bunch are stolen, second hand or refurbished, it short time everyone
 will be able to buy an iPhone 3G without contract for almost the same price
 than it contract. Then we will be able to compare unsubsidized iphones with
 moko. until that moment lets end the flame :-) but if I am right the iPhone
 will be cheaper even unsubsidized. (although i would buy a moko anyway)

not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this
happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it was assumed
that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and apple bore
the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (att). so they
sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from att after that.

now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you
can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a
contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract
unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination
clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of
not completely cover it and then some.

sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the factory or
from shipments before they get to an apple or att or other carrier store, and
some may be sold under the counter without contract - but i guarantee that
that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a rebate
once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean hey have
to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money.

as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT contract are
going to be much more than $199.

  furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a
  freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and
  philosophy. 
 
   This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing 
  things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to 
  be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, 
  it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and 
  understand the reality of the situation.
 
 
 not equal value? Moko, iPhone, iRiver, Blackberry... we are talking about
 smartphones, and money is money. If you buy an orange, and apple or a pinable
 you pay with money!! every fruit have advantages and disadvantages, but you
 pay anyway
 
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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Jorge .

 ian douglas wrote:
 
 By my calculations below, a consumer buying an iPhone or a Freerunner, 
 and using ATT for a voice/data plan, is going to spend about $2600 over 
 two years no matter which phone they buy.
 
 Jorge's original posting in this thread said the following:
  the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will
  cost only $199 USD and  now the FreeRunner is less competitive than 
 the iPhone in terms of price.
 
 He was asking about straight out-of-pocket expense, not about subsidies. 
 The end consumer is only going to see the price tag on the phone itself.


EXACTLY!! a GNU/Linux geek will see the difference, but GTA02 is for mass 
production, and i am afraid the price will discourage buyers for the same 
reasons your are telling


 The consumer will look at the iPhone and see a price of $199.
 Then they'll look at the Freerunner and see a price tag of $399.

EXACTLY AGAIN!

 
 The Freerunner would perhaps be cheaper if the consumer buys pay as you 
 go minutes/data instead of a monthly plan.


Excepting if you can buy an unlocked iPhone for less than $399 USD, because in 
most countries you can buy pay as you go minutes for any phone.


 The Freerunner would *definitely* be cheaper if they buy the iPhone and 
 start buying applications through iTunes for their phone.


Of course, iTunes aplications are horribly expensive and non-free!!


 If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying 
 the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package 
 and THEN we can talk.
 
 But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the 
 iPhone. Just because ATT subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit 
 they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service,

Also true



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
ian douglas wrote:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
   
 Just compare equal things. 
 

 We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of equal.

 Hear me out:
   
Hi! 

:-)  I really do mean well but I'm not dropping this.

You still have it wrong.

If the moko was subsidized out of pocket expense would be less because 
the moko would be cheaper.

It's that simple.

Stop trying to skew the numbers please.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

 not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this
 happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it was 
 assumed
 that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and apple bore
 the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (att). so they
 sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from att after that.

 now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you
 can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a
 contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract
 unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination
 clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of
 not completely cover it and then some.

 sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the factory or
 from shipments before they get to an apple or att or other carrier store, and
 some may be sold under the counter without contract - but i guarantee that
 that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a rebate
 once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean hey 
 have
 to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money.

 as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT contract are
 going to be much more than $199.

   
Precisely.  And if you want to quit your contract you will pay A FEE 
that will make your phone far more expensive than $600.

I wish people would stop saying nonsense.

It really doesn't matter if you unlock the phone or not, the person that 
bought it will end up paying the full retail price of it no matter what, 
quitting contract or not quitting contract.

To sign the contract is to agree to finance the retail cost of the v.2.0.

You will not be seeing 2.0 versions on ebay for $199 that are legit.  
Those that aren't legit are either stolen, knockoffs or refurbished, in 
which case who gives a damn, they are stolen, knockoffs or refurbished 
and not in competition.

The math simply doesn't add up fellas.


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread rakshat hooja


 
 No, it won't make the Moko more expensive.

 You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year
 contract minimum.

 The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko.

 In other words, if the Moko came with a 2 year contract it would
 basically be free.

 Please actually compare apples to apples.

 - Rob

 I don't know where my NDA stands on this. (I dont have the signed copy back
yet and I guess i wont be posting any more on this once I get it:-) I
discussed with a carrier in India and they were as the first offer willing
to offer unlimitid data on GPRS/Edge and free incomming for *one year* for
about $70 (more than half their normal rate) if their connection is sold
with the Freerunner.

So a more logical comparison (if you have to compare prices) would be
*Freerunner
at $539 with two year unlimited data connection with the cost of the
I-phone+2 years unlimited data only connection* (I am not aware of the
prices as the I-phone plan pricing has not been announced in my country)

Rakshat
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you
 can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a
 contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract
 unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination
 clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of
 not completely cover it and then some...
   
Well I guess this thread is probably dead, lots of good points made.  
I'll stop here as I don't think I can provide anything usefull on the 
price comparison.  Carsten I agree with your point.

I think its safe to say that if our technically saavy and intelligent 
users cannot tell the difference between a retail and subsidized phone 
its a given joe six pack won't spend the time to research it any 
further.  My hope is that we can all parrot the same message so when 
shit hits the fans and fucking noobs start flooding in here we can have 
toe a single line and explain to them the difference one noob at a time 
- just like the ubuntu folks are doing on irc quite well.

I think I've failed in convincing any people here so that one is lost.

So let's see if we can salvage some of the back and forth and see if we 
can get some brainstorming going ... here is a brainstorm I had in 
another thread about what we can do to differentiate the moko.  It's 
clear if we (well frankly there is no we, its fic and their team, but 
i'll pretend there is a we to encourage a free platform) get too close 
to trying to compete on iphones terms or redmonds terms we will lose.

How about if we try to change the playing field a bit, one release at a 
time.  Here is one way I thought we can do it ... please feel free to 
comment or tear it appart:

Yes.  I propose a modular approach.  1 phone many external similar to
 this idea: http://www.icontrolpad.com/

 Additionally, there is a certain cool factor to having a single unit but
 many docking stations if done right, for example:

 Quick preview:  http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3871478989.html

 Their overbearing website:  http://www.buglabs.net/products

 Buglabs is doing something really cool, but you gotta code in java and
 it doesn't fit into a pocket (well it does fit in a really big pocket).

 It's pretty clear Mokos core group of users are very demanding, and
 something like that would allow for everyone to be happy.

 However, why I really think this could be a really great approach for
 the moko is the 'Hey Cool!' factor.

 Can you picture the conversation when you meet up with  a buddy hey
 whats that on your moko? oh it's my new gamepod.  COL!  can i try it
 on my moko?  sure  ... *CLICK*  ... here you go.   COOL!

 It also reduces the dev costs for moko, it allows it to remain a
 smartphone and not move from that niche, reduces the number of formats
 that people will be demanding the moko be made in and will start to
 establish a hardware addon ecosystem beyond what is already being developed.

 What the moko manufacturers then can pull is a NIKE.  Instead of relying
 purely on sales of the moko, they can turn them selves into an RD and
 marketing company and not only produce their own hardware if they want
 to, but also licence officially supported modules and addons to control
 quality and get a cut of each sale.

 Also when usb3 comes along you can offload all sorts of stuff to that,
 such as gfx co-porcessing if you want so all of a sudden you can get ati
 into the picture with their completely documented processors and really
 start something interesting.


 Just some brianstorming ...

 Rob


We haveto OUT THINK them, NOT OUTCOMPETE them.  The first one allows us 
to define the playing field, the second one leaves us catching up with 
the Joneses (note: this is what iSteve has done to quite a remarkable 
success - dell is left shoveling small margins while apple rakes in the 
cash on the high end).  What are your thoughts?

Rob



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Robert Taylor wrote:
 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
   
 
 Precisely.  And if you want to quit your contract you will pay A FEE 
 that will make your phone far more expensive than $600.

 I wish people would stop saying nonsense.

 It really doesn't matter if you unlock the phone or not, the person that 
 bought it will end up paying the full retail price of it no matter what, 
 quitting contract or not quitting contract.

 To sign the contract is to agree to finance the retail cost of the v.2.0.

 You will not be seeing 2.0 versions on ebay for $199 that are legit.  
 Those that aren't legit are either stolen, knockoffs or refurbished, in 
 which case who gives a damn, they are stolen, knockoffs or refurbished 
 and not in competition.

 The math simply doesn't add up fellas.

   
Bah!  Ignore this please ... I hit reply to the wrong thread!!!

My bad, appologies.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread ian douglas
Robert Taylor wrote:
  I'm not dropping this. You still have it wrong.

Hi Robert,

I'm not trying to win the overall argument, I just want you to 
acknowledge that my position is as valid as your own, as I do for your 
position in point #2 below.


Here's my thinking, please feel free to agree or disagree and explain why.


#1: Based on Steve's recent Emails talking about production time lines, 
I'd wager that the Freerunner will hit the market within a week or two 
of the 3G iPhone. There have been discussions over and over about how 
the Freerunner is not going to be marketed as an iPhone killer, but 
the fact it'll be released around the same time may create that sort of 
thinking again, which as Robert states in another Email, we'll have to 
clarify for the f___ing noobs.


#2: A quote from your last Email:
  If the moko was subsidized out of pocket expense would be less because
  the moko would be cheaper. It's that simple.
Yes, I agree with you on this, it's that simple, you're absolutely 
correct, and the out-of-pocket expense would be higher to own an iPhone. 
*IF* the moko was subsidized -- to use your own words.
So *yes* if were having this discussion next summer when someone 
theorized (was it you yourself) that the Freerunner or some other GTA 
device might be subsidized by a major carrier, then I absolutely 
whole-heartedly agree that getting a Freerunner would be cheaper, in 
terms of up-front cost alone, than buying an iPhone.


#3: Come July 11th, 2008 when the iPhone is released, you *have* to 
agree with me on this: the Freerunner is NOT going to be subsidized by 
any carrier. It will cost you $399 (or $369 in a group sale) to purchase 
a Freerunner from OpenMoko, plus tax/shipping, period. And it will cost 
you $199 for the cheaper iPhone at a store you have to drive to, period.


#4: Jorge's original message had nothing to do with subsidies, it was 
solely based on a face-value perspective of When the iPhone is released 
in July 2008, how much money comes out of my pocket to buy a Freerunner 
versus iPhone, plus a data/voice plan?, and nothing else. His point was 
that the out-of-pocket cost, in July 2008, would be higher for a 
Freerunner by $200, which is absolutely correct.


#5: Taking #2, #3 and #4 into consideration: if you buy an iPhone or a 
Freerunner in July 2008, over the course of the next 24 months (to 
compare apples to apples of a 2-yr contract versus 2 years of 
non-contract service), you'll spend approximately the same total dollar 
value no matter which phone you purchase.
iPhone: $199 + ($100 x 24mo) = ~$2600
Freerunner: $399 + ($90 x 24mo) = ~$2600


So maybe I'm not going to convince you either (per your comment in the 
other things clear message thread) that my perspective is as valid as 
your own. I'm simply trying to get you to acknowledge that when the 
Freerunner is sold in the summer of 2008, around the same time the 
iPhone is being sold, there is *no* subsidy on the Freerunner, therefore 
Jorge's initial question/concern is correct: the iPhone is cheaper to 
purchase up front. My follow-up though was that after two years of 
owning each phone, the total amount of money paid will be approximately 
equal.


And Robert, I'm still curious how you determined that in this same 
scenario (buying the phones in July 2008 with no subsidy on the 
Freerunner) that the overall dollar total you spend would be double if 
you choose the iPhone. Third request: please elaborate. :o)

-id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Joe Pfeiffer
Robert Taylor writes:

If the moko was subsidized out of pocket expense would be less because 
the moko would be cheaper.

Well, yes, but when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.

So the economics (as I faced them) were subsidized phone vs. s. p. + moko.

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