Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Aditya Gandhi aditya...@gmail.com wrote: Why don't we really combine all efforts instead of making a huge and heavy fso which is indeed short of a good phone into something more specific and quicker. IIRC, FSO is pretty quick to start...most of the time spent is for X, wm, etc (may be udev also plays a role there...I've never I think it's falling nicely into place. bit by bit the big python based framework is being replaced by smaller fast lightweight vala based daemons, the latest reports of running fso-gsmd are very encouraging - fast, small memory footprint... thanks to Mickey's effort. Sidetracking a bit, but imho i am not so much looking to the stable party as i am really looking forward to have fso-gsmd and new opimd (have since yesterday) running in my phone. i hope to see increase of speed and performance especially during startup, but not only. And i think yes, the FSO team is open to patches... :) my 2cents only... Petr ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
On 10 March 2010 05:58, Aditya Gandhi aditya...@gmail.com wrote: Why don't we really combine all efforts instead of making a huge and heavy fso As others have replied, I don't think it's true that FSO is huge and heavy - at least, not in a practical sense, because it is nicely divided into separate functions, and you can disable any parts of it that you don't want. For example, my personal intuitions are that opimd shouldn't be middleware, and maybe not oeventsd and opreferencesd either; and that ogpsd and otimed should be just gpsd and ntpd. But that's all fine, because I can just disable those pieces (as and when I sort out my thinking and any replacements that are needed). What does that leave? ogsmd, odeviced and ousaged - which are all crucial, and I have no reason to believe that they're unnecessarily heavy. IIUC, Neophysis uses odeviced and ousaged (or the fso* equivalents), and just replaces [fs]ogsmd with ofono. on speed and reliability of operations we do. I don't think I would like to use a phone which takes 5 min to boot up, 3 min to start an app and crashes very frequently. FWIW, that doesn't sound like my FSO-based phone. I would love to start from scratch and clean up all the mess. I don't think these guys have anything against fso but I'm sure they felt the same as many other Freerunner users. I don't mean to ridicule your efforts on fso all I want to say is it can be quicker and better if you don't plan on supporting everything possible (qt,gtk,enlightenment) even if you do not everything all together , different flavors of fso might help better. I think this is all just FUD, isn't it? If there's a specific point in here, please point it out. In particular, note that the FSO API has nothing to do with what desktop environment you're using. I really wish fso reaches its goal but still while giving usable images as it goes. Me too. It already does enough to make me a happy phone user. Of course there are remaining issues, but progress is being made on those, and I would be very surprised if the oFono stack is able to catch up and overtake FSO, because it is inevitable that oFono will encounter difficult issues too. Regards, Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
On Sun, Mar 07, 2010 at 01:28:02PM +0100, Petr Vanek wrote: We started working on it on last September, with the support of the Italian Telefoninux.org community, and after 6 months (thursday was our half-birthday :P) we want to share the effort of the 6 core members of the team with you. thank you for the announcement. just tested the new image, feels better then the previous one, faster. It takes incredible 34 seconds from first PWR press till the home screen appears with the GSM already registered! I made a test phone call with Can someone make bootchart from it? My image seems to have enlightenment running in about 40 sec, Killing xinit/Xserver script and starting Xorg with right params directly would seve maybe another 5sec. http://jama.homelinux.org/Pictures/bootchart-2.6.32.9.r2.png But I'm still interested if that NDE is so quicker or if I'm wasting so much time somewhere else. Thanks, Regards, -- uin:136542059jid:martin.ja...@gmail.com Jansa Martin sip:jama...@voip.wengo.fr JaMa ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
Why don't we really combine all efforts instead of making a huge and heavy fso which is indeed short of a good phone into something more specific and quicker. We are trying to make a desktop out of a phone, we should well concentrate on speed and reliability of operations we do. I don't think I would like to use a phone which takes 5 min to boot up, 3 min to start an app and crashes very frequently. I would love to start from scratch and clean up all the mess. I don't think these guys have anything against fso but I'm sure they felt the same as many other Freerunner users. I don't mean to ridicule your efforts on fso all I want to say is it can be quicker and better if you don't plan on supporting everything possible (qt,gtk,enlightenment) even if you do not everything all together , different flavors of fso might help better. I really wish fso reaches its goal but still while giving usable images as it goes. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Aditya Gandhi aditya...@gmail.com wrote: Why don't we really combine all efforts instead of making a huge and heavy fso which is indeed short of a good phone into something more specific and quicker. IIRC, FSO is pretty quick to start...most of the time spent is for X, wm, etc (may be udev also plays a role there...I've never benchmarked). For me, opimd had been quite slow (i've some 1500 messages and may be double that phone logs...and im reluctant to remove those...fresh db hardly took any time). I am still to update my phone to new opimd...I really hope that the new db structure does things faster...btw, opimd slowed down the things while coming...I think it loads everything at least once during initialization...but thats what *I* *think*. --Vikas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
Yes please some screenshots On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi wrote: 34sec bootup time sound's incredible compared to all other distros, WELL DONE!! Are there any screenshots available? Thanks! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
Aditya Gandhi ha scritto: Yes please some screenshots On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi mailto:ri...@kurppa.fi wrote: 34sec bootup time sound's incredible compared to all other distros, WELL DONE!! Are there any screenshots available? Thanks! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi Hi, you can find some screenshots in the Czech original review here[1], please consider in the new image Litephone and Linphone not present (they are only in OE image) so consider only launcher, power button and dialer screens only :) Thank you, bye. [1] http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=itsl=autotl=enu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openmoko.cz%2Findex.php%2Fblogs%2Fread%2F20 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
djdas wrote: What's next: who knows :P we're hardly working to achieve a stable phone system, there are lots of programs in our OE buildsys but we haven't provided a package manager yet (there is a script to simply install ipk packages in /opt/bin/ipkmgr.sh) Hardly working or working hard? They have opposite meanings. I think you meant working hard because hardly working means barely working. ;) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
On 6 March 2010 22:24, djdas dj...@djdas.net wrote: As the team leader of the Neophysis Dev Team I'm proud to announce you a new distribution for our loved(?) Freerunner. Well, of course it will be great to have another choice for the FR, if it is rock-solid and supports all the important phone functions. - the phone stack should be oFono (reliable, multi-platform, fast) Is oFono already rock-solid as regards GPRS? i.e. - doesn't drop the GPRS connection prematurely - allows simultaneous use of GPRS and phone calls - deactivates GPRS cleanly (when requested) and can reactivate it later. Also, is oFono better than FSO as regards - never missing incoming SMS messages? - handling split (CSM) messages? - a completely cutomized boot sequence to start in 30-50 secs maximum Nice - but more for the implication that you have carefully considered all the daemons and cut out what you don't need, than for the actual boot time (which doesn't matter much if one rarely needs to reboot). What you can expect: well, it's in alpha stage, the only working thing is the dialer for placing and answering calls (no contact-list, just numbers :P) no SMS (we're working on them ATM), no suspend/resume, it's a simple phone :D it boots in about 40 seconds with the modem registered (NO PIN SUPPORTED ATM!!!), it works only with moko11 firmware; to shutdown, simply push the power button for 8 seconds (read-only filesystem so you can't break anything). Are the limitations because of middleware problems (i.e. oFono) or just because you haven't written the UI yet? Last but not least thanks to anyone who will believe in our project and will want to join us in this new adventure. I will believe in it if it produces a rock-solid and full function distribution soon. For me, it raises the question of why people feel that they need to start off their own thing, instead of contributing to an existing project. I think one justification for this is if the new project really produces a result quickly that is clearly better than the existing projects. If that doesn't happen, I'm afraid I don't see the point; the end result is only that we have N+1 not-quite-good-enough distributions, instead of N. FWIW, the same question obviously applies to oFono too (vs FSO). I read some of the IRC logs about that, and the oFono guys only seemed to have one technical reason for starting their own thing - because they thought the FSO D-Bus API was too complex and exposed too much unnecessary detail to applications/users. Which on the one hand is not persuasive - because I'm sure it would have been possible for them to add their proposed simpler API to FSO, in parallel with the existing API - and on the other hand is a concern - because it makes me wonder if an oFono-based distribution would be able to support applications like Cellhunter? So, in summary, I have misgivings about your choice to start your own thing from scratch, but I wish you well and hope that Neophysis will make rapid progress. Oh, and finally: source code of our libraries and daemons is not yet open to anonymous readers but only to active developers I hope you understand that this means that Neophysis is NOT free (or open source) software. I encourage you to fix this very quickly! Regards, Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
Hi Djdas, Thanks for the new FR software. I did try it just yet and ran into some problems. Where am i supposed to put the software? SD card? Nand? doesn;t matter? I put it on the Nand and flashed the kernel to Nand as well, but it doesn't boot at all. Having a choice is a good thing and if this will be just a phone it is good enough for me. I have always felt that 56 layers of abstraction before talking to the hardware is a mixed blessing. If you want to support different hardware i think it is a must, but if you want to make bleeding edge software just for the FR it is an overkill. Just my 2 cents. Kind regards, Ed djdas wrote: Dear Community, yes, you discovered us :D As the team leader of the Neophysis Dev Team I'm proud to announce you a new distribution for our loved(?) Freerunner. We started working on it on last September, with the support of the Italian Telefoninux.org community, and after 6 months (thursday was our half-birthday :P) we want to share the effort of the 6 core members of the team with you. What is Neophysis? It's a sort of Linux from scratch for the Freerunner (although it could potentially run on any embedded system which runs a bit of daemons and has libraries as per the following notes), we re-thought the concept of “distro” aiming at boot speed and phone stability. To achieve these purposes we started with 3 key points: SNIP ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
We started working on it on last September, with the support of the Italian Telefoninux.org community, and after 6 months (thursday was our half-birthday :P) we want to share the effort of the 6 core members of the team with you. thank you for the announcement. just tested the new image, feels better then the previous one, faster. It takes incredible 34 seconds from first PWR press till the home screen appears with the GSM already registered! I made a test phone call with no issues. All functions as announced. The FSO device layer is great for app integration (GPS). Petr ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
On Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:05:58 + Neil Jerram neiljer...@googlemail.com (NJ) wrote: For me, it raises the question of why people feel that they need to start off their own thing, instead of contributing to an existing project. I think one justification for this is if the new project really produces a result quickly that is clearly better than the existing projects. If that doesn't happen, I'm afraid I don't see the point; the end result is only that we have N+1 not-quite-good-enough distributions, instead of N. Neil, in principle i agree with you. But the perfect world doesn't exist and for me as the end user variety is good. I think with the number of FR sold, multitude of projects is just expected behavior. We can see the same thing on desktop and it is a never ending dispute of quality versus quantity. We could hope there would be one official distribution providing the functioning basics for our FR but that didn't happen. So personal initiatives just take place. Instead of seeing the FR platform disappearing, this is hopefully a progression. Petr ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
Brolin Empey wrote: djdas wrote: What's next: who knows :P we're hardly working to achieve a stable phone system, there are lots of programs in our OE buildsys but we haven't provided a package manager yet (there is a script to simply install ipk packages in /opt/bin/ipkmgr.sh) Hardly working or working hard? They have opposite meanings. I think you meant working hard because hardly working means barely working. ;) EHEH Sorry, English is not my first language, yes we are working hard :) Thank you for correcting me. Bye ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
Neil Jerram wrote: On 6 March 2010 22:24, djdas dj...@djdas.net wrote: As the team leader of the Neophysis Dev Team I'm proud to announce you a new distribution for our loved(?) Freerunner. Well, of course it will be great to have another choice for the FR, if it is rock-solid and supports all the important phone functions. Yes it's our first target, a fully functional phone. - the phone stack should be oFono (reliable, multi-platform, fast) Is oFono already rock-solid as regards GPRS? i.e. - doesn't drop the GPRS connection prematurely - allows simultaneous use of GPRS and phone calls - deactivates GPRS cleanly (when requested) and can reactivate it later. Honestly we didn't try GPRS functions yet, because we focused on the phone part for the Armeniacum release, although oFono team implemented the GPRS functions and the Calypso plugin already works with multiplexing, so I assume there shouldn't be many problems. Also, is oFono better than FSO as regards - never missing incoming SMS messages? - handling split (CSM) messages? Yes and yes :) never missed any SMS and long ones are automatically handled by oFono: you can send/receive a string of whatever length (don't know what is the limit but at least with a 3 SMS long string, I had no problems) without taking care of the splitting/joining. - a completely cutomized boot sequence to start in 30-50 secs maximum Nice - but more for the implication that you have carefully considered all the daemons and cut out what you don't need, than for the actual boot time (which doesn't matter much if one rarely needs to reboot). I always turn off my phone at night so for me a fast boot is mandatory ;) and yes, we removed all the unuseful stuff (at least on a device like the FR) What you can expect: well, it's in alpha stage, the only working thing is the dialer for placing and answering calls (no contact-list, just numbers :P) no SMS (we're working on them ATM), no suspend/resume, it's a simple phone :D it boots in about 40 seconds with the modem registered (NO PIN SUPPORTED ATM!!!), it works only with moko11 firmware; to shutdown, simply push the power button for 8 seconds (read-only filesystem so you can't break anything). Are the limitations because of middleware problems (i.e. oFono) or just because you haven't written the UI yet? The second one ;) we are completing the SMS handling part these days and working on the contacts handling, the rest is because we didn't integrate FSO daemons yet but will get on soon :) Last but not least thanks to anyone who will believe in our project and will want to join us in this new adventure. I will believe in it if it produces a rock-solid and full function distribution soon. Soon is a word which fights with time and resources, we are doing our best and we are full of ideas but work on it on our spare time so please be patient :) and please let me be a bit ironic: in three years we didn't get a rock-solid full function distro yet, in 6 months you can almost phone ;) For me, it raises the question of why people feel that they need to start off their own thing, instead of contributing to an existing project. I think one justification for this is if the new project really produces a result quickly that is clearly better than the existing projects. If that doesn't happen, I'm afraid I don't see the point; the end result is only that we have N+1 not-quite-good-enough distributions, instead of N. looking at distrowatch.org it seems many people think differently :) joking apart... we started because we thought something faster and reliable than the current distros (almost for the phone part) could be possible by rethinking from scratch every single component of the system...future will say if we were right 6 months ago ;) FWIW, the same question obviously applies to oFono too (vs FSO). I read some of the IRC logs about that, and the oFono guys only seemed to have one technical reason for starting their own thing - because they thought the FSO D-Bus API was too complex and exposed too much unnecessary detail to applications/users. I think so and I agree with oFono guys. Furthermore oFono doesn't want to substitute or concur with FSO, it's just a phone middleware, while FSO is aimed at the whole system so I don't think we can compare them. Which on the one hand is not persuasive - because I'm sure it would have been possible for them to add their proposed simpler API to FSO, in parallel with the existing API - and on the other hand is a concern - because it makes me wonder if an oFono-based distribution would be able to support applications like Cellhunter? I think FSO is a great idea but I think a middleware should be optimized (read as: wrote in C and easy to handle). We will use FSO for the parts which do not need realtime handling and this is why, for the phone part, we choose
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
djdas dj...@djdas.net writes: Honestly we didn't try GPRS functions yet, because we focused on the phone part for the Armeniacum release, although oFono team implemented the GPRS functions and the Calypso plugin already works with multiplexing, so I assume there shouldn't be many problems. Nothing on calypso is without its problems. For example if you hit http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket//2264 the software should automatically power-cycle calypso and reconnect it to network. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
Ed Kapitein wrote: Hi Djdas, Thanks for the new FR software. I did try it just yet and ran into some problems. Where am i supposed to put the software? SD card? Nand? doesn;t matter? I put it on the Nand and flashed the kernel to Nand as well, but it doesn't boot at all. I'm sorry to not explain the installation but simply forgot :) The file is the tar.gz archive of the root fie system, you can untar it on a SD partition to install and: 1) using u-boot copy the kernel in /boot/uImage-GTA02.bin in a vfat partition 2) using Qi select the SD card partition to boot Please see docs for the details especially for Qi as I don't use it and don't know how to configure it, sorry. If you want to install in your NAND you should boot another distro on SD, mount your NAND partition (mount -t jffs2 /dev/mtdblk6 /mnt/point) and then untar the file on the partition; kernel could be flashed as always. Jffs image will be provided soon but until then we will provide only tar.gz archives, sorry. Having a choice is a good thing and if this will be just a phone it is good enough for me. Having a functionally phone is our key target ;) I have always felt that 56 layers of abstraction before talking to the hardware is a mixed blessing. If you want to support different hardware i think it is a must, but if you want to make bleeding edge software just for the FR it is an overkill. Just my 2 cents. I definitely agree, we have only a layer (written in pure C++) which abstracts FSO and oFono APIs to achieve multi middleware (and so multiplatform) support without the needs of rewriting the applications APIs Kind regards, Ed Best regards, Dario. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote: djdas dj...@djdas.net writes: Honestly we didn't try GPRS functions yet, because we focused on the phone part for the Armeniacum release, although oFono team implemented the GPRS functions and the Calypso plugin already works with multiplexing, so I assume there shouldn't be many problems. Nothing on calypso is without its problems. I know :) but oFono guys are very kind and supported us very well on December so I assume they will if we will ask them on GPRS issues. I want to be honest and clear on this point: GPRS will be considered after the basic functionalities of the phone will be complete and stable so please don't count on it soon :) Bye :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [NEW DISTRIBUTION] Announcing NEOPhysis
34sec bootup time sound's incredible compared to all other distros, WELL DONE!! Are there any screenshots available? Thanks! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
