Re: New case (was Re: Freerunner's Future)

2009-07-01 Thread steven mosher
 Werner has the ability to embed the debug board on board

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Jianming.Liu liuj...@gmail.com wrote:


 Hi, I have posted the symbols and schematic of the debug board v3 in the
 list
 of GTA02-Core, and I think that could be a part of the GTA02-Core, or we
 could start a new debug board project? Thank you.

 Werner Almesberger wrote:
 
  [ Let's give threads that change direction a clearer name than just
Freerunner's Future ]
 
  Fabian Sch?lzel wrote:
  I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the
  mechanical design and modeling of the case and other things related
  to the project.
 
  Great ! I think redoing the GTA02 case should be a project on its
  own, independent from gta02-core or such.
 
  There are no technical dependencies anyway - gta02-core will fit
  into any GTA02 case and a new GTA02 case can host any GTA02 board.
 
  Two considerations:
 
  I think just making a case equivalent to the existing one would be
  an interesting enough task on its own, without adding any changes
  that aren't motivated by feasibility (machinability, etc.) alone.
 
  Ideally, someone who's already experienced the whole process from
  design to prototype production getting done would take care of
  coordinating that project.
 
  - Werner
 
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Re: New case (was Re: Freerunner's Future)

2009-06-30 Thread Jianming.Liu

Hi, I have posted the symbols and schematic of the debug board v3 in the list
of GTA02-Core, and I think that could be a part of the GTA02-Core, or we
could start a new debug board project? Thank you.

Werner Almesberger wrote:
 
 [ Let's give threads that change direction a clearer name than just
   Freerunner's Future ]
 
 Fabian Sch?lzel wrote:
 I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the
 mechanical design and modeling of the case and other things related
 to the project.
 
 Great ! I think redoing the GTA02 case should be a project on its
 own, independent from gta02-core or such.
 
 There are no technical dependencies anyway - gta02-core will fit
 into any GTA02 case and a new GTA02 case can host any GTA02 board.
 
 Two considerations:
 
 I think just making a case equivalent to the existing one would be
 an interesting enough task on its own, without adding any changes
 that aren't motivated by feasibility (machinability, etc.) alone.
 
 Ideally, someone who's already experienced the whole process from
 design to prototype production getting done would take care of
 coordinating that project.
 
 - Werner
 
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Re: Freerunner's Future - sony ericsson evilness

2009-06-24 Thread Tim Abell
my favourite sony ericsson bug is the one where it waits till your 
memory stick (blergh) is almost totally full (with precious memories 
etc), and then wraps round and overwrites the FAT, followed by a this 
card is not formatted message. I'd link to the bug report but, erm, 
well, there is no bug tracker.


I discovered it when trying to fill mine up with inconsequential mp3s, 
my non techie friend tripped over it when she had filled it up with 
photos. Thank f* for linux, dd and those clever recovery tools.


Tim Abell

Al Johnson wrote:

On Saturday 06 June 2009, Ben Wong wrote:
  

My biggest disappointment has been the fact that my Openmoko Freerunner
(which I've had since helping form the Austin buying group) is still
not _nearly_ as reliable as any cheap simple handset I can get for 10%
of the cost.
  

Not to disagree, I'd like to share that in the short time I've been
using my Freerunner as my only phone it has been much, MUCH, more
reliable than my previous smart phone.



I was particularly amused to find a friend's Sony-Ericsson has the Buzz issue. 
Another bug is a tendency to switch network in the middle of a call when 
roaming, leaving both ends with a silent line. Then there was the long list of 
niggles and frustrations...at least we get to do something about (most of) our 
bugs.



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Re: New case (was Re: Freerunner's Future)

2009-06-20 Thread Ed Kapitein
And to reflect the openness of the FR it would be nice to have a
(semi) transparent (see trough) case.

Kind regards,
Ed

David Ford wrote:
 to whomever does this, please put a small stylus into a recess in the
 new case :)

 On 06/18/09 20:18, Werner Almesberger wrote:
 [ Let's give threads that change direction a clearer name than just
   Freerunner's Future ]

 Fabian Sch?lzel wrote:
   
 I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the
 mechanical design and modeling of the case and other things related
 to the project.
 

 Great ! I think redoing the GTA02 case should be a project on its
 own, independent from gta02-core or such.
   

 [...]
 

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Re: New case (was Re: Freerunner's Future)

2009-06-19 Thread David Ford
to whomever does this, please put a small stylus into a recess in the 
new case :)


On 06/18/09 20:18, Werner Almesberger wrote:

[ Let's give threads that change direction a clearer name than just
   Freerunner's Future ]

Fabian Sch?lzel wrote:
   

I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the
mechanical design and modeling of the case and other things related
to the project.
 


Great ! I think redoing the GTA02 case should be a project on its
own, independent from gta02-core or such.
   


[...]
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New case (was Re: Freerunner's Future)

2009-06-18 Thread Werner Almesberger
[ Let's give threads that change direction a clearer name than just
  Freerunner's Future ]

Fabian Sch?lzel wrote:
 I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the
 mechanical design and modeling of the case and other things related
 to the project.

Great ! I think redoing the GTA02 case should be a project on its
own, independent from gta02-core or such.

There are no technical dependencies anyway - gta02-core will fit
into any GTA02 case and a new GTA02 case can host any GTA02 board.

Two considerations:

I think just making a case equivalent to the existing one would be
an interesting enough task on its own, without adding any changes
that aren't motivated by feasibility (machinability, etc.) alone.

Ideally, someone who's already experienced the whole process from
design to prototype production getting done would take care of
coordinating that project.

- Werner

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-16 Thread Fabian Schölzel
Werner Almesberger wrote:
 But I think a case-making project that follows the same approach as
 gta02-core, namely reconstructing and prototyping the existing
 design with Free tools (and making some small changes) could be
 rather useful for establishing the know-how that can later be used
 for more ambitious work.

I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the mechanical 
design and modeling of the case and other things related to the project. I 
will take a look at the mentioned CAD-Tools.

Fabian Schölzel

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-16 Thread Steve Mosher
Tully have some very good ideas on how to change the 02 case and get rid 
of some annoyances--
bring the screen flush with the surface, reduce the parts count. And I 
had a camera solution that
looked promising. Write me if you decide to go down this path and I'll 
explain our ideas

Fabian Schölzel wrote:
 Werner Almesberger wrote:
   
 But I think a case-making project that follows the same approach as
 gta02-core, namely reconstructing and prototyping the existing
 design with Free tools (and making some small changes) could be
 rather useful for establishing the know-how that can later be used
 for more ambitious work.
 

 I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the 
 mechanical 
 design and modeling of the case and other things related to the project. I 
 will take a look at the mentioned CAD-Tools.

 Fabian Schölzel

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-16 Thread jeremy jozwik
flush screen would be a winner for me

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com wrote:

 Tully have some very good ideas on how to change the 02 case and get rid
 of some annoyances--
 bring the screen flush with the surface, reduce the parts count. And I
 had a camera solution that
 looked promising. Write me if you decide to go down this path and I'll
 explain our ideas

 Fabian Schölzel wrote:
  Werner Almesberger wrote:
 
  But I think a case-making project that follows the same approach as
  gta02-core, namely reconstructing and prototyping the existing
  design with Free tools (and making some small changes) could be
  rather useful for establishing the know-how that can later be used
  for more ambitious work.
 
 
  I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the
 mechanical
  design and modeling of the case and other things related to the project.
 I
  will take a look at the mentioned CAD-Tools.
 
  Fabian Schölzel
 
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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-16 Thread Eldon Koyle
On  Jun 11 20:20-0300, Werner Almesberger wrote:
snip
 Even in the hardware area, there's more than just low-risk
 implementation projects. E.g., there should also be activities that
 take on the risky bits and bring them under control. Such pioneer
 efforts can then be integrated into the next safe design.
snip

I would really like to see this paradigm expanded to other types of
currently-proprietary hardware.  You could even rip off large parts of
the current design :).

As an example:  An openmoko HAM radio.  Commercially-produced amateur
radio equipment is quite proprietary (and expensive, since it's a fairly
small market).  Most of them have a very limited feature set, partly
because of software limitations.

Since the nature of amateur radio is to promote experimentation and
emergency communications, a device like the openmoko (replacing the GSM
radio with hardware to handle HAM radio, SDR?; and a larger form factor)
would be highly useful.

To give you an idea on pricing, there is a popular (high-end) $400
handheld right now that can handle 2 receive channels, bluetooth (w/$70
add-on board), gps (w/$70 gps receiver add-on for you to accidentally
break off the top), APRS messaging (easily handled by a PIC
microcontroller... imagine what a real processor could do), and a
1.3x.8 dot matrix display.

-- 
Eldon Koyle
-- 
BOFH excuse #185:
system consumed all the paper for paging

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-12 Thread Adolph J. Vogel
 Also, we haven't touched the whole area of case design and
 manufacturing yet.

As a new freerunner owner :) and as a mechanical engineering masters
student, I think this might be an ideal place for me to contribute to
the freerunners future. :)

 There's a number of Free CAD tools that should be up to the task.

I have done some googling on free cad software, anything beyond 2D is
severly lacking behind their propriety counterparts. I will look into
them some more, maybe there are some new projects that we can use.

Anyway, got to get back to my open source CFD workshop :)

Regards Adolph


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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-12 Thread Werner Almesberger
Adolph J. Vogel wrote:
 As a new freerunner owner :) and as a mechanical engineering masters
 student, I think this might be an ideal place for me to contribute to
 the freerunners future. :)

Yeah ! You may even be able to make this count as a semester or
final project, or similar.

 I have done some googling on free cad software, anything beyond 2D is
 severly lacking behind their propriety counterparts. I will look into
 them some more, maybe there are some new projects that we can use.

The most promising one seems to be HeeksCAD. It has fairly
comprehensive CAM integration and can do parametric modeling via
Python scripts. Salome also looks quite powerful and is perhaps
more mature but appears to lack CAM integration.

- Werner

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-12 Thread Martin Bernreuther
Am Freitag, 12. Juni 2009 schrieb Werner Almesberger:
 The most promising one seems to be HeeksCAD. It has fairly
 comprehensive CAM integration and can do parametric modeling via
 Python scripts. Salome also looks quite powerful and is perhaps
 more mature but appears to lack CAM integration.

BTW, looking at http://code.google.com/p/heekscad/ and
http://www.salome-platform.org/home/presentation/geom/
both are based on the same solid modeller: Open CASCADE
(http://www.opencascade.org, http://opencascade.com/)
From that point of view, it's the same technology behind both.

Martin
-- 
_
Martin Bernreuther  martinb...@web.de

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-12 Thread Adolph J. Vogel
 BTW, looking at http://code.google.com/p/heekscad/ and
 http://www.salome-platform.org/home/presentation/geom/
 both are based on the same solid modeller: Open CASCADE
 (http://www.opencascade.org, http://opencascade.com/)
 From that point of view, it's the same technology behind both.

Yep, if needed we can do the modelling in Salome and use HeeksCad
( HeeksCNC ) for the CAM.

Adolph


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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-11 Thread Werner Almesberger
Jeremy McNaughton wrote:
 1.  That the open source hardware development processes pioneered by
 gta02-core get formalized as part of the structure of the new
 organization

There's always room for improvements, so I wouldn't nail down too
many details. But the overall goals, i.e., the use of Open Source
wherever possible, yes.

 2.  That the people who are working on the gta02-core will continue to
 work together as part of the new community organization.

Definitely, yes.

 Of course, the community organization (heh... we need a name!) should
 encompass more than just hardware.  The open hardware part will likely
 just be a part of what the organization does.

Even in the hardware area, there's more than just low-risk
implementation projects. E.g., there should also be activities that
take on the risky bits and bring them under control. Such pioneer
efforts can then be integrated into the next safe design.

Also, we haven't touched the whole area of case design and
manufacturing yet. There's a number of Free CAD tools that should
be up to the task. We've briefly discussed them on the gta03
list a while ago.

Also turning a CAD design into a prototype is not an impossible
task. There are relatively inexpensive CNC mills (i.e., within the
reach of many hobbyists) that should be able to make reasonably
good prototypes. Access to mills or 3D printers may also exist
through academic institutions or projects like Fab Lab:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fab_lab

I don't know if anyone actually made a case from the CAD files
Openmoko released about a year ago. The CAD files themselves may
not be directly useful with Free CAD tools except for making very
minor changes.

But I think a case-making project that follows the same approach as
gta02-core, namely reconstructing and prototyping the existing
design with Free tools (and making some small changes) could be
rather useful for establishing the know-how that can later be used
for more ambitious work.

- Werner

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-10 Thread Steve Mosher
Many thanks to you Christoph,

  I always make a habit of returning to decisions I have played a role 
in to review my thinking and uncover the mistakes I may have made so 
that I can make new ones the next time around. ( hat tip to Werner) I 
like very much your idea of a multi purpose platform.


Christoph Pulster wrote:
 it started with Sean's Vision. Free the Phone.
 
 Thanks for the very interesting inside views about your decisions, I  
 really appreciate your way of explaining how things worked out.
 I have to revise my opinion about your marketing strategy in some way.
 Free your phone is a nice slogan and idea to archive publicity.
 
 The big Unknown is and will be the GSM chip which is under NDA.  
 Freerunner may phone the Whitehouse anytime. Without a workaround of GSM  
 the vision of the Free Phone will stay a vision. This is painful to  
 realize, I know :-)
 
 Again thanks to you,
 Christoph
 
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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-10 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
On Wednesday 10 June 2009 09:59:00 Christoph Pulster wrote:
  it started with Sean's Vision. Free the Phone.

 Thanks for the very interesting inside views about your decisions, I
 really appreciate your way of explaining how things worked out.
 I have to revise my opinion about your marketing strategy in some way.
 Free your phone is a nice slogan and idea to archive publicity.

 The big Unknown is and will be the GSM chip which is under NDA.
 Freerunner may phone the Whitehouse anytime.

Even if it could (power control is under the AP's control), it would not be 
able to tell something, since the audio path is as well under the application 
processor's control...

:M:


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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-10 Thread Werner Almesberger
Jeremy McNaughton wrote:
 Scope:   What will our mission statement be?  Is the foundation just
 to support the gta02-core project,

Just a quick remark: please don't concentrate too much on
gta02-core when planning organizational structures for the
future.

The focus of gta02-core is not on making the next big phone but
on opening the process. The few pieces of hardware gta02-core
is planned to produce would be a proof of concept that we've
succeeded to meet that specific goal but they will likely be of
little practical interest to anyone who is looking for a
substantial improvement on the GTA02 as a day to day phone.

Once gta02-core is complete, there are several paths that could
lead to a mass-produced phone. Some could be very quick, others
quite slow. Mass-producing a phone requires a lot of money, so
at that stage, the direction would also depend on the goals of
investors or sponsors and on an assessment of the target
markets.

An organisational structure should allow us to keep assets
across projects. This will also encourage keeping technical
projects small and focused.

I use gta02-core as a reference when discussion specific needs,
because of the project's narrow scope. If a plan doesn't work
for gta02-core, it probably doesn't work at all. But a plan
that only works for gta02-core wouldn't be much better either.

- Werner

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-10 Thread Steve Mosher
I would offer this. The vision that Werner has,  shared by a good number 
of us
( hat tip to Dr Schaller) is to create a process whereby the design 
effort can be
shared collaboratively. As I look at the EE design process it is currently
controlled at  several points by closed proprietary systems. These 
chains will
will not be broken all at once. Lets take the layout tool. Layout tools 
are expensive
software. You may be a EE with a great idea, but your stuck in schematic 
land
if you dont have a layout tool. Now the output of layout tools ( gerber 
file) is
rather open and standard.  There are many elements here where a 
community effort
can help. At some point I will put something together to describe this 
process,
the tools, the resources, and you can all see how close we are to an 
open process.

If folks dont want to wait for me, they  can pitch in and describe the 
process themselves
and put it in the wiki.

So, generally speaking I'd say the mission is opening the design process 
to allow for
collaborative open source hardware development.

On another thread people are speculating about Project B. some 
interesting speculations.
Imagine a world where those speculations could be turned into working 
prototypes
and then products.. all done the open source way. just a thought.


Werner Almesberger wrote:
 Jeremy McNaughton wrote:
   
 Scope:   What will our mission statement be?  Is the foundation just
 to support the gta02-core project,
 

 Just a quick remark: please don't concentrate too much on
 gta02-core when planning organizational structures for the
 future.

 The focus of gta02-core is not on making the next big phone but
 on opening the process. The few pieces of hardware gta02-core
 is planned to produce would be a proof of concept that we've
 succeeded to meet that specific goal but they will likely be of
 little practical interest to anyone who is looking for a
 substantial improvement on the GTA02 as a day to day phone.

 Once gta02-core is complete, there are several paths that could
 lead to a mass-produced phone. Some could be very quick, others
 quite slow. Mass-producing a phone requires a lot of money, so
 at that stage, the direction would also depend on the goals of
 investors or sponsors and on an assessment of the target
 markets.

 An organisational structure should allow us to keep assets
 across projects. This will also encourage keeping technical
 projects small and focused.

 I use gta02-core as a reference when discussion specific needs,
 because of the project's narrow scope. If a plan doesn't work
 for gta02-core, it probably doesn't work at all. But a plan
 that only works for gta02-core wouldn't be much better either.

 - Werner

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-10 Thread Jeremy McNaughton
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Werner Almesbergerwer...@openmoko.org wrote:
 Jeremy McNaughton wrote:
 Scope:   What will our mission statement be?  Is the foundation just
 to support the gta02-core project,

 Just a quick remark: please don't concentrate too much on
 gta02-core when planning organizational structures for the
 future.

 The focus of gta02-core is not on making the next big phone but
 on opening the process. The few pieces of hardware gta02-core
 is planned to produce would be a proof of concept that we've
 succeeded to meet that specific goal but they will likely be of
 little practical interest to anyone who is looking for a
 substantial improvement on the GTA02 as a day to day phone.

 Once gta02-core is complete, there are several paths that could
 lead to a mass-produced phone. Some could be very quick, others
 quite slow. Mass-producing a phone requires a lot of money, so
 at that stage, the direction would also depend on the goals of
 investors or sponsors and on an assessment of the target
 markets.

 An organisational structure should allow us to keep assets
 across projects. This will also encourage keeping technical
 projects small and focused.

 I use gta02-core as a reference when discussion specific needs,
 because of the project's narrow scope. If a plan doesn't work
 for gta02-core, it probably doesn't work at all. But a plan
 that only works for gta02-core wouldn't be much better either.

 - Werner

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I guess what I'm hoping for in regards to gta02-core and the community
organization  would be some combination of these two things:

1.  That the open source hardware development processes pioneered by
gta02-core get formalized as part of the structure of the new
organization
2.  That the people who are working on the gta02-core will continue to
work together as part of the new community organization.

This would mean incorporating the lessons learned by the gta02-core
team into the new organization.  It would also mean creating an
organization that can effectively facilitate this type of open
hardware development.

Of course, the community organization (heh... we need a name!) should
encompass more than just hardware.  The open hardware part will likely
just be a part of what the organization does.  There's also a need to
support and connect developers, themers, writers of documentation.
And of course there's end-users like me who could benefit from a
organization we can be a part of and connect with others through.

This might be a tall order to fill.  If the organization is too
broadly focused it could end up going nowhere at all.


Jeremy

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-08 Thread Sean Moss-Pultz



Harald Welte-3 wrote:
 
 Thanks for your update, Sean!
 
 It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support
 of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in
 areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side
 (trademarks).
 
 I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can.
 
 

Thanks a lot Harald. I heard you're back in Taiwan now. So let's talk in
person later this week. I just returned this afternoon. 

  -Sean


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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-08 Thread Sean Moss-Pultz


Jeremy

I really appreciate your email. Your words cheered us all up at the office. 

  -Sean




Jeremy McNaughton wrote:
 
 Layoffs are always sad, and never an easy decision to make.  To those
 who are leaving the company, thanks for the great work.  I wish the
 best for your future endeavours and hope that you are able to remain
 in the community in some way.
 
 I know I haven't really contributed much to the project.  I'm not much
 of a programmer and only have time to poke around on the phone every
 other weekend or so.  Still, I've read almost every thread on the
 mailing list and have learned a great deal.
 
 I do have a fair bit of experience doing media relations for local
 grassroots organizations and non-profits.  My experience isn't with
 software or technology, it's with anti-poverty activism and social
 service work.  Nonetheless, I have some feedback based on some
 non-tech community organizing to share.
 
 Handing development of the Freerunner over to the community is a big
 deal.  There is a lot of opportunity here to get good press for both
 Openmoko Inc. and the community.
 
 The way I see it, giving the phone to the community is every bit as
 radical as launching an open source phone was in the first place.  The
 Openmoko community is now coordinating development of an updated
 Freerunner (using Free software), there are multiple distros, lots of
 apps, multiple phone gui apps.  Not only that, but the mailing lists
 are far from stagnant, and outside of openmoko.org, other parts of the
 broader Openmoko community have their own mailing lists, wikis and
 tracs.
 
 The key point here is that Openmoko succeeded in building a community
 around its product.  This is no easy task.  Companies and
 organizations with more resources behind them have tried this and not
 succeeded nearly as well as Openmoko has.  For this the company should
 be commended.  There's definitely a newsworthy story here as well.
 
 Naysayers might look at Openmoko handing responsibility for the
 Freerunner to the community as a death knell for the project, or proof
 that an open source phone can't work.  Instead, it seems the
 Freerunner is transitioning from a phone that was designed in house
 and then open sourced, to a phone for which the hardware itself is
 designed by an open source community.  That's huge!
 
 There's a big difference between how the Freerunner was developed and
 how the gta02-core is being developed, and that means that once again
 Openmoko is breaking new ground.
 
 It may be a little early to bring this message to the media.  It
 probably makes sense to let the community have a chance to formalize a
 bit, develop some structure.  A Openmoko Foundation maybe?
 
 Anyways, once the dust settles maybe Openmoko could make a big
 announcement about how the thriving community is in the process of
 taking over development of the phone.  It could be a chance for
 Openmoko to get some good press for being innovative and altruistic.
 It could also be a huge boon for the community, as it raises awareness
 about the work being done and reaches out to potential new members.
 Not to mention reminding people of all the incredible work that has
 been done with these phones so far.
 
 Openmoko is a success story.  Despite all the frustrations and delays,
 a new community that develops open source phone technology has been
 created.  In the FLOSS podcast interview a few weeks ago (I think)
 Sean spoke about how the Openmoko has reduced a lot of barriers to
 phone development, potentially allowing the kind of garage workshop
 innovations that led companies like Hewlett Packard or Apple.
 Facilitating the community and that kind of development just lowered
 one more barrier.
 
 
 Well, that's my 2 cents.
 
 
 Jeremy McNaughton
 
 
 On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harald Welte lafo...@gnumonks.org wrote:
 Thanks for your update, Sean!

 It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support
 of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in
 areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side
 (trademarks).

 I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can.

 Regards and thank you once again,
        Harald
 --
 - Harald Welte lafo...@gnumonks.org          
 http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
 
 Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option.
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch.
 A6)

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-08 Thread Jeremy McNaughton
On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 1:54 PM, swap38swa...@openmoko-fr.org wrote:

[snip]

 I created this page (just a draft) :
 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_transition

[/snip]

I've started some brainstorming on this page at
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_transition#Community_Organization

It's all very general and abstract right now.

Please (of course) feel free to change it up and expand where you see fit.


Jeremy McNaughton

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-07 Thread Jeremy McNaughton
On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 6:23 AM, Werner Almesbergerwer...@openmoko.org wrote:
 You can view the situation also as an opportunity to change some
 of the structure of the project. Openmoko Inc. had certain
 constraints due to the way it was conceived. Some of them looked
 good at the beginning but later caused problems - yet were too
 difficult to change.

 The good thing about a new start is that you can stop fighting the
 mistakes of the past and turn your full attention towards making
 new ones ;-)

 - Werner

+1 for Werner's way of looking at things.

Considering that Openmoko started as a project inside a major
electronics manufacturer, it's not surprising that once it was spun
off it kept a lot of organizational legacy from its corporate roots.
 While the old structure worked well enough to get us to this point,
I'm pretty excited about getting the development even more out in the
open.

Jon 'maddog' Hall's offer to incubate the community under Linux
International is also pretty exciting.  Eventually I'd like to see an
independent foundation that acts as hub and legal representative of
the community.

Organizing an Openmoko Foundation is something I'd really like to help
with.   Up till now I've not really had the skills to contribute any
sort of code.  The other activities open to me thus far (like bug
testing and documentation), well unfortunately haven't gotten me
involved in anything more than a casual basis (though I have learned
tonnes from my months of lurking).

But organizing is what I love doing.  Like I said above my organizing
experience isn't with free software but with local activist groups and
social services:
- co-founder of a homeless shelter
- sat on committee to rewrite all bylaws, policies and procedures for
the shelter after it had been incorporated as a nonprofit (I'm not a
lawyer, but I've been exposed to lots of policy)
- sat on the board of a coalition/network of social service agencies.
the coalition was unincorporated and hosted by an incubator
organization
- i've done trainings for groups on consensus decision making and
conflict resolution

Even though I'm from a different field, I think enough of my
background should cross over that I can be of some help.  I've also
used GNU/Linux on the desktop and server since Slackware 3.2 and have
been a lurker/occasional participant on many Free software projects in
that time.  So I'm pretty familiar with open source politics too.  I
just usually get active in more local oriented projects.

I don't want any sort of official position... give that to someone who
has already demonstrated a long term commitment to the community.  But
I would like to be kept in the loop.. if there's a mailing list
created I'll join it and be a part of the discussion as much as I can.

Depending on how things go, maybe I can handle some of the
organizational tasks that would previously have been done by Openmoko
Inc. and free up developers to do their thing.

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-07 Thread swap38
Steve Mosher a écrit :
 see inlined.

 Jeremy McNaughton wrote:
   
 (...)

 Organizing an Openmoko Foundation is something I'd really like to help
 with.   Up till now I've not really had the skills to contribute any
 sort of code.  The other activities open to me thus far (like bug
 testing and documentation), well unfortunately haven't gotten me
 involved in anything more than a casual basis (though I have learned
 tonnes from my months of lurking).
 
   I'll let Sean know personally. We've discussed it. Haralde also has
   high regard for the idea.

good news :-)

Like jeremy I'm not enough skilled to contribute in code and I'm 
probably less skilled than him in management.
But I want to help as much as I can.

There's 2 solutions for a foundation :
1 - create a brand new Openmoko foundation
2 - join an a foundation that already exists an create a sub-group

The solution 2 is easier to start (and can be moved in solution 1 later).
We can ask to :
- Linux International (see this mail from maddog :
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049177.html)
- Mozilla (they planned to build a mozilla phone :
http://mozphone.com/about/)
- LiMo ? (www.limofoundation.org)
- other ?

My 2 cents

Swap38

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-07 Thread David Reyes Samblas Martinez
+1 to LI
+1/2 to Mozilla
-2 to LiMo



2009/6/7 swap38 swa...@openmoko-fr.org:
 Steve Mosher a écrit :
 see inlined.

 Jeremy McNaughton wrote:

 (...)

 Organizing an Openmoko Foundation is something I'd really like to help
 with.   Up till now I've not really had the skills to contribute any
 sort of code.  The other activities open to me thus far (like bug
 testing and documentation), well unfortunately haven't gotten me
 involved in anything more than a casual basis (though I have learned
 tonnes from my months of lurking).

   I'll let Sean know personally. We've discussed it. Haralde also has
   high regard for the idea.

 good news :-)

 Like jeremy I'm not enough skilled to contribute in code and I'm
 probably less skilled than him in management.
 But I want to help as much as I can.

 There's 2 solutions for a foundation :
 1 - create a brand new Openmoko foundation
 2 - join an a foundation that already exists an create a sub-group

 The solution 2 is easier to start (and can be moved in solution 1 later).
 We can ask to :
 - Linux International (see this mail from maddog :
 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049177.html)
 - Mozilla (they planned to build a mozilla phone :
 http://mozphone.com/about/)
 - LiMo ? (www.limofoundation.org)
 - other ?

 My 2 cents

 Swap38

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http://www.tuxbrain.com
Open ultraportable  embedded solutions
Openmoko, Openpandora,  Arduino
Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!!

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-07 Thread Steve Mosher
Swap.

  Thanks. There are many options available to OM. I'm sure they all be 
considered


Steve


swap38 wrote:
 Steve Mosher a écrit :
 see inlined.

 Jeremy McNaughton wrote:
   
 (...)

 Organizing an Openmoko Foundation is something I'd really like to help
 with.   Up till now I've not really had the skills to contribute any
 sort of code.  The other activities open to me thus far (like bug
 testing and documentation), well unfortunately haven't gotten me
 involved in anything more than a casual basis (though I have learned
 tonnes from my months of lurking).
 
   I'll let Sean know personally. We've discussed it. Haralde also has
   high regard for the idea.
 
 good news :-)
 
 Like jeremy I'm not enough skilled to contribute in code and I'm 
 probably less skilled than him in management.
 But I want to help as much as I can.
 
 There's 2 solutions for a foundation :
 1 - create a brand new Openmoko foundation
 2 - join an a foundation that already exists an create a sub-group
 
 The solution 2 is easier to start (and can be moved in solution 1 later).
 We can ask to :
 - Linux International (see this mail from maddog :
 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049177.html)
 - Mozilla (they planned to build a mozilla phone :
 http://mozphone.com/about/)
 - LiMo ? (www.limofoundation.org)
 - other ?
 
 My 2 cents
 
 Swap38
 
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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-07 Thread Jeremy McNaughton
On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:49 PM, swap38swa...@openmoko-fr.org wrote:

 good news :-)

 Like jeremy I'm not enough skilled to contribute in code and I'm
 probably less skilled than him in management.
 But I want to help as much as I can.

 There's 2 solutions for a foundation :
 1 - create a brand new Openmoko foundation
 2 - join an a foundation that already exists an create a sub-group

 The solution 2 is easier to start (and can be moved in solution 1 later).
 We can ask to :
 - Linux International (see this mail from maddog :
 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049177.html)
 - Mozilla (they planned to build a mozilla phone :
 http://mozphone.com/about/)
 - LiMo ? (www.limofoundation.org)
 - other ?

 My 2 cents

 Swap38


These are good suggestions (though I don't know about LiMo, not really
a community organization).

After thinking about it for a bit, I don't know if we really need to
find an umbrella organization right away.  It seems that for now
Openmoko is still willing to foot the bills for hosting infrastructure
and helping out in other small ways.  That's basically what an
umbrella or incubator would be doing for us anyways.  Maybe I'm
mistaken, but it doesn't seem like Openmoko Inc. has any sort of
urgency to hand the phone over to another incorporated body.  If I'm
wrong about that then maybe we should take up Jon's offer with Linux
International.  But if there's no rush, let's take our time to look at
all the options.

After all, transitions like this one are difficult and resource
consuming.  We should try to go through as few organizational
transformations as possible.

There are some other questions that I think we need to talk about for
a foundation:

Name:  Openmoko Inc. has been kind enough to allow the community to
use its branding and trademarks.  Would that include allowing us to
use Openmoko in the name of the foundation?  There are obvious
advantages to keeping the same branding, but that could become
confusing.  Steve said Postmoko above.  Freerunner Foundation?  Or
maybe even a name that could include other phones?

Scope:   What will our mission statement be?  Is the foundation just
to support the gta02-core project, or will it also
supervise/contribute to/support  Paroli, OM2009, FSO etc?  Does the
foundation attempt to finance a future phone, does it work mostly on
software, does focus on porting real Linux to all the Android phones
that will be on the market?

Location:  The Openmoko community is international, so where do we
want the foundation to be headquartered?  It might make the most sense
to put the foundation where there are the most members.  Different
countries have different rules and categories for non-profits, are
there places we should avoid or that may be advantageous?   Are we
safer in a country that does not recognize software patents?

As for Jon's offer, maybe an LI sub-group for Openmoko end users could
exist in parallel to the foundation.  The foundation could still also
be open to end users in this scenario.  This could work well if the
two groups have different mission statements.

There are a lot of options to consider.  It's important that we choose
carefully to ensure a productive future for our community.

Before we're ready to start a foundation, there are some things that
we can sort out during our incubation period.  I've only just started
reading the gta02-core list and haven't been on IRC at all yet so I
don't know... maybe some of these things are already started on:

Decision making process:   I think that a clear, accessible process
for making decisions is best.  We need a balanced process that is fair
to those doing the hard work and to end users.  We also need to avoid
deadlocks and conflicts.

Paroli and OM2009:   Do these projects need new leaders?

Online resources:   who will handle admin tasks on the *.openmoko.org?
  Do we need a team for that?

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-06 Thread Ben Wong
 My biggest disappointment has been the fact that my Openmoko Freerunner
 (which I've had since helping form the Austin buying group) is still
 not _nearly_ as reliable as any cheap simple handset I can get for 10%
 of the cost.

Not to disagree, I'd like to share that in the short time I've been
using my Freerunner as my only phone it has been much, MUCH, more
reliable than my previous smart phone.  I had a Samsung SPH-N400
which, besides having some incredibly brain dead bugs, which I could
go on for hours about, had terrible problems with non-reentrant code.
That is, when two events would happen nearly simultaneously, say
answering the phone and unplugging it from the power, it would often
crash.  I even managed to get it to crash by simply pressing the same
button too rapidly.  I got very practiced at removing and replacing
the battery quickly.  Now mind you, the N400 is a phone that was
offered by a major carrier (Sprint) in the US and was supposedly fully
supported.  I exchanged the N400 several times and also had them try
flashing different firmware on it.  It didn't help, it simply shifted
the bugs around.


 The Freerunner had (has?) great potential, but we
 couldn't realize that potential without basic reliable functionality.
 If the concerted efforts of many talented (in some cases even paid)
 engineers couldn't achieve that basic milestone, it seems unlikely
 that it will be achieved by a loosely-organized group of unpaid (and
 demoralized) volunteers.

The present tense is correct, the Freerunner *has* great potential.
It is still the only device even close to being a _Free_ phone, and it
will reach that in time.  As for what can be achieved by a
loosely-organized group of unpaid volunteers... well, do you really
need me to list all the Open Source success stories which started with
even less than we have?

I believe the Freerunner will be a success story.  The freeing of the
cell phone is a revolution on the order of the personal computer
revolution.  The only question is, Will the Freerunner be more like
the MITS Altair 8800, which led by inspiration or will it be like the
IBM PC, whose framework was widely copied to become a de facto
standard?

--Ben Wong

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-06 Thread carmen
 difference. It causes a revolution where major phone manufacturers like 
 LG, Samsung, Nokia, etc. will start trembling to figure out their next 
 moves as the community thrives to make something so much better with 
 mass collaboration.

how so? iphone/pre/blackberry/winmo all offer similarly polished experiences, 
mature solutions with no real edge among any of the competitors

im certainly hoping FIC can get their act together with 3G and a camera, but 
have no probs waiting for Acer/ASUS to 'accidentally' ship a phone that happens 
to run a vanilla kernel..

ive narrowed down to giving my money to taiwan, anwyays :)

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-06 Thread Wolfgang Spraul
Dale,

 The Freerunner had (has?) great potential, but we
 couldn't realize that potential without basic reliable functionality.
 If the concerted efforts of many talented (in some cases even paid)
 engineers couldn't achieve that basic milestone, it seems unlikely
 that it will be achieved by a loosely-organized group of unpaid (and
 demoralized) volunteers.

Thanks for your concern and (slight) impatience.
Several efforts are underway to form really solid groups, both community 
and commercial, to continue with the open phone.
I haven't noticed any demoralization, quite to the contrary. But I do 
believe the size of our community is stagnant or slowly shrinking. Which 
only makes sense given that there is not much visible progress right now.

BTW here are some interesting statistics about our community:
http://downloads.openmoko.org/stats/05/
And number of subscribers to our mailing lists:
https://monitor.openmoko.org/munin/chandra/sita.openmoko.org-mailman_detail.html
(openmoko-kernel is missing for some reason, we will fix this, I believe 
it has around 600 subscribers)

As for the 'big picture' of open devices - on the technical level there 
are a number of categories that are merging over the next few years: 
phones, portable media players, electronic dictionaries, navigation 
devices. Other non-mobile categories are also not far behind (picture 
frames, set-top boxes, wifi routers, NAS). For these types of devices, 
there are a few 'open' options here and there, but by Openmoko's 
standards for the largest part it's all closed.

Going forward we need to find more semiconductor partners that 
understand 'open' and know how they can create value with it.
In today's consumer electronics industry, semiconductor companies are 
the ones writing the drivers, they do reference designs for 
manufacturers. Trying to do open devices without the help of 
semiconductor companies will just not work.
The good news is that pretty much all semiconductors have a relaxed, and 
often friendly, attitude towards 'Linux' nowadays. They see the 
potential, and real size of the market today. Things like Android help 
tremendously!

Bottom line - the path to a fully open phone as envisioned by Openmoko 
and our phantastic community is still long. Maybe even 5+ years.
I'm not discouraged by that at all. gta02-core is on track, and Werner 
has as clear a long-term plan of why and where this will all go as 
everybody else. Realistically I am hoping that actual physical hardware 
will come out of it within 12 months or so.
In other parts of the Openmoko landscape, work is going on on non-phone 
projects, whether they are called Project B or C or D.
Even if those devices are not a phone initially, trust me they will all 
become phones :-)

Thanks for staying with us, I hope you enjoy the ride with your 
'pioneering' Neo (I'm a daily user myself).
Best Regards, and keep your feedback coming!
Wolfgang

Dale Schumacher wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Boris Wonglists.bo...@bshed.com wrote:
   
 Steve Mosher wrote:
 
 1. Its a mobile Phone First, and a multi purpose platform secondarily

   
 I actually like the perspective of #1 very much and you should keep it
 as such.
 
 ...snip...
   
 Free the phone; we already have multi-purpose platform devices that run
 linux.
 

 I'm totally on-board with this message, vision and mission.  The
 problem is--after all this time, that vision remains unfulfilled.  My
 biggest disappointment has been the fact that my Openmoko Freerunner
 (which I've had since helping form the Austin buying group) is still
 not _nearly_ as reliable as any cheap simple handset I can get for 10%
 of the cost.  The Freerunner had (has?) great potential, but we
 couldn't realize that potential without basic reliable functionality.
 If the concerted efforts of many talented (in some cases even paid)
 engineers couldn't achieve that basic milestone, it seems unlikely
 that it will be achieved by a loosely-organized group of unpaid (and
 demoralized) volunteers.

 I truly hope I'm wrong--and I applaud the efforts of those who
 continue to strive for this goal.  I also want to express my thanks
 for the efforts of all those who have worked so long and hard trying
 to achieve this vision.

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-06 Thread Werner Almesberger
Dale Schumacher wrote:
 If the concerted efforts of many talented (in some cases even paid)
 engineers couldn't achieve that basic milestone, it seems unlikely
 that it will be achieved by a loosely-organized group of unpaid (and
 demoralized) volunteers.

You can view the situation also as an opportunity to change some
of the structure of the project. Openmoko Inc. had certain
constraints due to the way it was conceived. Some of them looked
good at the beginning but later caused problems - yet were too
difficult to change.

The good thing about a new start is that you can stop fighting the
mistakes of the past and turn your full attention towards making
new ones ;-)

- Werner

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-06 Thread clare johnstone
On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Werner Almesbergerwer...@openmoko.org wrote:

 The good thing about a new start is that you can stop fighting the
 mistakes of the past and turn your full attention towards making
 new ones ;-)

 - Werner

Lovely, made me laugh which was needed after all that.

I will get started on it right now,

cheers,
clare

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-06 Thread Al Johnson
On Saturday 06 June 2009, Ben Wong wrote:
  My biggest disappointment has been the fact that my Openmoko Freerunner
  (which I've had since helping form the Austin buying group) is still
  not _nearly_ as reliable as any cheap simple handset I can get for 10%
  of the cost.

 Not to disagree, I'd like to share that in the short time I've been
 using my Freerunner as my only phone it has been much, MUCH, more
 reliable than my previous smart phone.

I was particularly amused to find a friend's Sony-Ericsson has the Buzz issue. 
Another bug is a tendency to switch network in the middle of a call when 
roaming, leaving both ends with a silent line. Then there was the long list of 
niggles and frustrations...at least we get to do something about (most of) our 
bugs.


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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-06 Thread swap38
Risto H. Kurppa a écrit :
 I'd like to see some kind of democratic structure created to guide us
 somewhere where most of us want to go.

Do you think about a kind of Openmoko Foundation like Wikimedia or Mozilla ?

It can be a good way to manage projects, communities ... and maybe money
? ;-)

-- 
swap38

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-06 Thread GNUtoo
On Sat, 2009-06-06 at 15:59 +0200, swap38 wrote:
 Risto H. Kurppa a écrit :
  I'd like to see some kind of democratic structure created to guide us
  somewhere where most of us want to go.
 
 Do you think about a kind of Openmoko Foundation like Wikimedia or Mozilla ?
 
 It can be a good way to manage projects, communities ... and maybe money
 ? ;-)
good idea...
an umbrella organization would be the easiest way:
http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/foss-primer.html#x1-190003
Denis.



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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-06 Thread swap38
Steve Mosher a écrit :
   Community,

 To start off I have this list of proposed FAQs kindly generated by 
 Werner. I'm going to ask for a volunteer to incorpoate this into an
 appropriate place in the wiki.

 Any takers?

Hi Steve,

I created this page (just a draft) :
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_transition

Is it what you expect ?

-- 
swap38

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-05 Thread Steve Mosher
Thanks Christoph for your clarification.  I have a minor quibble with 
your characterization.
When Openmoko started as a project in FIC, it started with a Vision. 
That vision was to create a open mobile
phone. Its the job of marketing to message that vision to the customer. 
Thats what
we did. Very early on, however, we realized that  we could position the 
product ( not the company) in one of two ways:

1. Its a mobile Phone First, and a multi purpose platform secondarily

2. Its a multi purpose platform first, and a phone secondarily.

If you read carefully through interviews and materials we put out you'll 
see that
we chose #1 as opposed to number two. That is, we choose to emphasize 
the phone
aspects as opposed to the multi purpose aspects. Over an over again you 
will hear
us saying that its more than a phone. But, this message was not in the 
foreground.

That was a marketing decision that was
hard to make. The problem with #2 as I saw it was this: When openmoko 
started
it started with Sean's Vision. Free the Phone. For me as marketing to 
insist that we market
this vision like #2  didnt make much sense. It's something that we 
struggled with throughout
the life of neo 1973 and FR.  Should we change our message about the 
phone and call it
a multi purpose device? should we change the vision of the company? If 
we suddenly
call FR a multi-purpose platform after years of saying it was a phone, 
what would the
community say. From late 2007 when Wolfganag and I joined to early 2008, 
before the launch of FR, Wolfgang, Sean and I debated this exact issue. 
And we even considered shipping FR with a Bootable linux and nothing 
else. The way I viewed it
was this. If we keep pushing down the phone path eventually the vision 
will come true.
So we tried everything to keep that vision alive, paring back on the 
software ( back to the basics)
the downside here was this: We might fail to deliver  according to the 
schedules we promised.
On the other hand, if I switched the message to  hey its multi purpose 
platform then
people would ask what about the phone you promised? Its basically a no win
situation. On one hand  we promise a phone and come up short, on the 
other hand we change
our promise altogether. In the end I own this marketing decision and any 
blame you want
to ascribe to it. As I saw it as long as I work dilgently to keep the 
promise and vision alive
I am doing the right thing. So even now as I try to enable people to 
carry the vision
forward, whether its 5 guys working on Gta02 or other things I am 
working on, I am working
to keep that original promise. I could have choosen the other path. I 
could have said  hey, I know we designed it as a phone,
promised a phone from day one, but what the heck, lets just call it a 
multi purpose platform
In the end at the Embedded systems conference we gave this message a try.

On a personal note. I'd like to thank you for your support and hard work. 




Christoph Pulster wrote:
 the best path foreword is to turn the future of the Freerunner over to
 the community.
 

 I always have problems to define community. Speaking in numbers,
 I see ONE active Mailinglist (here) and nothing more worth to mention.
 The GTA03core list consists of 5 active people feeding some strange CAD  
 software, this community list has -lets guess- 1000 active everydayt  
 readers and 100 contributors, that's all !?
 Based on this, your idea to base the future of the Freerunner to a  
 community is a dead born baby.

 IMO you say community but you mean VAR = value-added-resellers.
 Openmoko's big marketing mistake was to announce Freerunner as a mobile  
 phone instead a FOSS based multi-purpose plattform.
 No VAR's, no sales. Thats the sad point we have reached now.

 Christoph

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-05 Thread Werner Almesberger
Christoph Pulster wrote:
 I see ONE active Mailinglist (here) and nothing more worth to mention.

openmoko-kernel used to be very busy. Now it's a bit more quiet
with kernel maintenance being rearranged, but I expect it to
pick up some more activity again before too long.

Also, these days, the most active participants all use IRC and
much of the small coordination happens there.

 The GTA03core list consists of 5 active people feeding some strange CAD  
 software,

gta02-core is a very young project and I'm rather pleased with
the way it's growing. There are 1-2 people joining for active
participation every week, and some more are just lurking for now.

If active participants joined at a higher rate, it would actually
be difficult to give them the attention they deserve and to
integrate them into the project. (In fact, I already built up a
bit of a backlog for this week. Shouldn't dwell in this mail too
long ...)

If you don't like the strange CAD files, you may find
http://people.openmoko.org/werner/gta02-core/gta02-core-expanded-all.ps.gz
easier on your eyes ;-)

- Werner

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-05 Thread Boris Wong
Hi Steve,

Steve Mosher wrote:
 1. Its a mobile Phone First, and a multi purpose platform secondarily
   
I actually like the perspective of #1 very much and you should keep it 
as such. As I am to understand, the core philosophy of Openmoko is the 
Free the Phone. There are many platform hardware devices out there 
that are open. Stressing that it is the _phone_ makes the biggest 
difference. It causes a revolution where major phone manufacturers like 
LG, Samsung, Nokia, etc. will start trembling to figure out their next 
moves as the community thrives to make something so much better with 
mass collaboration.

Free the phone; we already have multi-purpose platform devices that run 
linux.

-Boris


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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-05 Thread Dale Schumacher
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Boris Wonglists.bo...@bshed.com wrote:
 Steve Mosher wrote:
 1. Its a mobile Phone First, and a multi purpose platform secondarily

 I actually like the perspective of #1 very much and you should keep it
 as such.
...snip...
 Free the phone; we already have multi-purpose platform devices that run
 linux.

I'm totally on-board with this message, vision and mission.  The
problem is--after all this time, that vision remains unfulfilled.  My
biggest disappointment has been the fact that my Openmoko Freerunner
(which I've had since helping form the Austin buying group) is still
not _nearly_ as reliable as any cheap simple handset I can get for 10%
of the cost.  The Freerunner had (has?) great potential, but we
couldn't realize that potential without basic reliable functionality.
If the concerted efforts of many talented (in some cases even paid)
engineers couldn't achieve that basic milestone, it seems unlikely
that it will be achieved by a loosely-organized group of unpaid (and
demoralized) volunteers.

I truly hope I'm wrong--and I applaud the efforts of those who
continue to strive for this goal.  I also want to express my thanks
for the efforts of all those who have worked so long and hard trying
to achieve this vision.

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-04 Thread Jeremy McNaughton
Layoffs are always sad, and never an easy decision to make.  To those
who are leaving the company, thanks for the great work.  I wish the
best for your future endeavours and hope that you are able to remain
in the community in some way.

I know I haven't really contributed much to the project.  I'm not much
of a programmer and only have time to poke around on the phone every
other weekend or so.  Still, I've read almost every thread on the
mailing list and have learned a great deal.

I do have a fair bit of experience doing media relations for local
grassroots organizations and non-profits.  My experience isn't with
software or technology, it's with anti-poverty activism and social
service work.  Nonetheless, I have some feedback based on some
non-tech community organizing to share.

Handing development of the Freerunner over to the community is a big
deal.  There is a lot of opportunity here to get good press for both
Openmoko Inc. and the community.

The way I see it, giving the phone to the community is every bit as
radical as launching an open source phone was in the first place.  The
Openmoko community is now coordinating development of an updated
Freerunner (using Free software), there are multiple distros, lots of
apps, multiple phone gui apps.  Not only that, but the mailing lists
are far from stagnant, and outside of openmoko.org, other parts of the
broader Openmoko community have their own mailing lists, wikis and
tracs.

The key point here is that Openmoko succeeded in building a community
around its product.  This is no easy task.  Companies and
organizations with more resources behind them have tried this and not
succeeded nearly as well as Openmoko has.  For this the company should
be commended.  There's definitely a newsworthy story here as well.

Naysayers might look at Openmoko handing responsibility for the
Freerunner to the community as a death knell for the project, or proof
that an open source phone can't work.  Instead, it seems the
Freerunner is transitioning from a phone that was designed in house
and then open sourced, to a phone for which the hardware itself is
designed by an open source community.  That's huge!

There's a big difference between how the Freerunner was developed and
how the gta02-core is being developed, and that means that once again
Openmoko is breaking new ground.

It may be a little early to bring this message to the media.  It
probably makes sense to let the community have a chance to formalize a
bit, develop some structure.  A Openmoko Foundation maybe?

Anyways, once the dust settles maybe Openmoko could make a big
announcement about how the thriving community is in the process of
taking over development of the phone.  It could be a chance for
Openmoko to get some good press for being innovative and altruistic.
It could also be a huge boon for the community, as it raises awareness
about the work being done and reaches out to potential new members.
Not to mention reminding people of all the incredible work that has
been done with these phones so far.

Openmoko is a success story.  Despite all the frustrations and delays,
a new community that develops open source phone technology has been
created.  In the FLOSS podcast interview a few weeks ago (I think)
Sean spoke about how the Openmoko has reduced a lot of barriers to
phone development, potentially allowing the kind of garage workshop
innovations that led companies like Hewlett Packard or Apple.
Facilitating the community and that kind of development just lowered
one more barrier.


Well, that's my 2 cents.


Jeremy McNaughton


On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harald Welte lafo...@gnumonks.org wrote:
 Thanks for your update, Sean!

 It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support
 of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in
 areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side (trademarks).

 I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can.

 Regards and thank you once again,
        Harald
 --
 - Harald Welte lafo...@gnumonks.org           http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
 
 Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option.
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-04 Thread PaulTT
WOW

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-04 Thread Steve Mosher
  Thanks Jeremy for your kind words. I've copied pat meier Johnson our
PR person on the thread. Like you we believe there is a great positive 
story here. In addition, I've copied some of the key people in the
Openmoko community to get their reaction to your ideas

Jeremy McNaughton wrote:
 Layoffs are always sad, and never an easy decision to make.  To those
 who are leaving the company, thanks for the great work.  I wish the
 best for your future endeavours and hope that you are able to remain
 in the community in some way.
 
 I know I haven't really contributed much to the project.  I'm not much
 of a programmer and only have time to poke around on the phone every
 other weekend or so.  Still, I've read almost every thread on the
 mailing list and have learned a great deal.
 
 I do have a fair bit of experience doing media relations for local
 grassroots organizations and non-profits.  My experience isn't with
 software or technology, it's with anti-poverty activism and social
 service work.  Nonetheless, I have some feedback based on some
 non-tech community organizing to share.
 
 Handing development of the Freerunner over to the community is a big
 deal.  There is a lot of opportunity here to get good press for both
 Openmoko Inc. and the community.
 
 The way I see it, giving the phone to the community is every bit as
 radical as launching an open source phone was in the first place.  The
 Openmoko community is now coordinating development of an updated
 Freerunner (using Free software), there are multiple distros, lots of
 apps, multiple phone gui apps.  Not only that, but the mailing lists
 are far from stagnant, and outside of openmoko.org, other parts of the
 broader Openmoko community have their own mailing lists, wikis and
 tracs.
 
 The key point here is that Openmoko succeeded in building a community
 around its product.  This is no easy task.  Companies and
 organizations with more resources behind them have tried this and not
 succeeded nearly as well as Openmoko has.  For this the company should
 be commended.  There's definitely a newsworthy story here as well.
 
 Naysayers might look at Openmoko handing responsibility for the
 Freerunner to the community as a death knell for the project, or proof
 that an open source phone can't work.  Instead, it seems the
 Freerunner is transitioning from a phone that was designed in house
 and then open sourced, to a phone for which the hardware itself is
 designed by an open source community.  That's huge!
 
 There's a big difference between how the Freerunner was developed and
 how the gta02-core is being developed, and that means that once again
 Openmoko is breaking new ground.
 
 It may be a little early to bring this message to the media.  It
 probably makes sense to let the community have a chance to formalize a
 bit, develop some structure.  A Openmoko Foundation maybe?
 
 Anyways, once the dust settles maybe Openmoko could make a big
 announcement about how the thriving community is in the process of
 taking over development of the phone.  It could be a chance for
 Openmoko to get some good press for being innovative and altruistic.
 It could also be a huge boon for the community, as it raises awareness
 about the work being done and reaches out to potential new members.
 Not to mention reminding people of all the incredible work that has
 been done with these phones so far.
 
 Openmoko is a success story.  Despite all the frustrations and delays,
 a new community that develops open source phone technology has been
 created.  In the FLOSS podcast interview a few weeks ago (I think)
 Sean spoke about how the Openmoko has reduced a lot of barriers to
 phone development, potentially allowing the kind of garage workshop
 innovations that led companies like Hewlett Packard or Apple.
 Facilitating the community and that kind of development just lowered
 one more barrier.
 
 
 Well, that's my 2 cents.
 
 
 Jeremy McNaughton
 
 
 On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harald Welte lafo...@gnumonks.org wrote:
 Thanks for your update, Sean!

 It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support
 of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in
 areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side (trademarks).

 I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can.

 Regards and thank you once again,
Harald
 --
 - Harald Welte lafo...@gnumonks.org   http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
 
 Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option.
  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-03 Thread Werner Almesberger
Sean, thanks for the update !

It is unfortunate that Openmoko Inc. cannot presently continue to
lead the development of the open phone. But then, many a great
undertaking has required more than one effort before reaching its
goal. Anything that brings us closer to that goal is a success in
itself, and the value of previous achievements is often only
appreciated in the light of the final result.

I'm very glad that Openmoko Inc. has not only brought the vision of
the ubiquituous open phone this much closer to its realization, but
that you are also willing to help us to ease the transition from a
project centered around a single company to a true community effort.

In the name of the gta02-core project, I'm particularly grateful to
you and the board for supporting this effort with further material
and components. This will be critical for enabling us to open up the
engineering process with our moderate resources.

Alright, I think we all have a lot of work lined up for the future.
I hope we'll all have the opportunity to envy each other's before
too long ! :-)

- Werner

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-03 Thread Harald Welte
Thanks for your update, Sean!

It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support
of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in
areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side (trademarks).

I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can.

Regards and thank you once again,
Harald
-- 
- Harald Welte lafo...@gnumonks.org   http://laforge.gnumonks.org/

Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option.
  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
Hi Sean,

Thanks for all the fish :) [fortunatly without a So long and in the
beggining] and most of all thanks for communicating all this.

Most companies are not so bravely outspoken, and I'm only sad it didn't
go better in the end. As a phoenix, it has the potential to rebirth
as a glorious firebird.

Moving along, although the phone is very open, there are a few problems
that are hidden under NDAs. Without improvement in this area, I fear the
Freerunner is as good as dead, and only the next model will have some
hope.

For now, I'm hoping my Freerunner improves enough to last long, as I don't
expect another Free Software phone to come up anytime soon.

Best of luck on the new venture,
Rui

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Steve Mosher
  Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something
unique.  i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize
the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere
here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community 
  on what OM can do to support the community efforts.

I am leaning toward putting Werner's FAQ on the wiki  and also having
a wiki entry for  a community wish list where the wishes are directed
at how OM can help.

Anybody who is better at wiki than me volunteer, please.

Steve

Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
 Dear Community,
 
 As some of you have heard, we had a layoff at Openmoko on Monday, May
 25th. First of all let me second the comments made here congratulating
 the Openmoko team on all that was accomplished. And let me add that
 everything accomplished was only possible because of the amazing
 efforts of the community.
 
 Bringing the Neo products to market, first the 1973 and then the
 Freerunner, has been the most exceptional experience of our lives. I
 can undeniably say that the most important thing we have learned over
 these years is that the power of people bound by ideals, rather than
 contracts, cannot be underestimated. These phones are your success.
From simple things like group sales to complex undertakings like
 developing and maintaining entire distributions, you made this happen.
 You always came through for us. As CEO, I have to determine the best
 path forward for our phone business. And after long discussions with
 my key people and Board, we've decided that the best path foreword is
 to turn the future of the Freerunner over to the community.
 
 We've always said that the talent and creativity of those outside the
 company is superior to that inside the company. We have stuck to these
 principles. We've have opened up more than any other phone, from any
 other company, in the history of this industry. Every time we chose
 openness over internal control, we have been rewarded.
 
 Former Openmoko employees have already started redesigning the
 Freerunner hardware (gta02-core) using only Free Software tools.
 Werner Almesberger, working with many others, has made great progress.
 Recently, we have released more information to accelerate their
 efforts. In the coming weeks, all the design information will be
 handed over to the community along with all of openmoko.org (Wiki,
 GIT, Trac, Planet, ...). Openmoko Inc. then will act as the sponsor of
 this effort. We will continue to fund all necessary server
 infrastructure and support, in areas where corporate help is needed,
 future open phone development. (Parts of this process will require
 legal work - so I request your patience.)
 
 I am extremely excited about the idea of an entirely community-built
 open phone. Especially since, when the next design is complete, it
 will have the benefits of everything uncovered since the Freerunner
 shipped last July. It will be buzz free, glamo free, and free of the
 recamping bug (#1024) - which I am happy to announce has been solved
 this past week. We promise to support these efforts with additional
 resources such as components to build prototypes of the new design. We
 will help to empower you to build the open phone of our future.
 
 After all this, there is one last thing that Openmoko the company can
 do: we can enable the community to use the Openmoko brand and
 trademark for these efforts. For us, the Openmoko brand is synonymous
 with the people who built the products: Harald, Mickey, Werner,
 Raster, all of my coworkers in our Taiwan office, Sureda, Tuxbrain,
 Bearstech, and countless others. I personally want to give an extra
 special thanks to Steve Mosher who has taught me so much about
 marketing, writing, and well...life. Without his guidance, this all
 would have only been an idea in my notebook.
 
 I have asked Steve to lead an effort, over the next few weeks, to
 gather input from the community on how best to implement this
 transition. (He will follow up shortly on the community mailing list.)
 As always we can expect some negative comments, that comes with the
 territory. But we believe a community that owns everything of
 importance, with regard to the Freerunner, will focus efforts and
 energies on the future - not the past.
 
 Sales of the current FreeRunner (A7), will continue as before. We have
 plenty more in stock. Now that the phone is freed, and its future
 entrusted to the hands of the community, Openmoko Inc. will start
 another effort on an altogether different type of device. We've sized
 our company to go do that task. Please wish us the very best of luck!
 More details will follow in the coming months...
 
 
 Sincerely,
 
 Sean Moss-Pultz
 
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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Lon Lentz
  Steve,

  Is this going to affect OM trying to find us Americans someone to
implement all of the pending hardware fixes?


On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com wrote:

  Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something
 unique.  i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize
 the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere
 here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community
  on what OM can do to support the community efforts.


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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Steve Mosher
No, it will not impact the program.

   I just sealed the deal on that this morning! of course there are 
details to be worked out so watch this space.

1. we sent out instructions to all the disty a while back.
2. one of our North american partners had requested the package to
perform the work ( like Dr. Ns program)
3. because of the layoff the mail went unanswered for a few days.
4. the disty wrote me directly and I hooked them up with sean who was on 
the matter in 5 minutes of my mail.
5. Sean has assigned a person to make this happen.

I'm working with that disty to make sure that they benefit from Dr. Ns
approach, so we dont re invent the wheel.

I know you guys have been very patient with us. I trust you wont be 
disappointed.

Finally, I would like to thank Dr. N for his tireless efforts and 
imagination in getting this done. And lets not forget david at Tuxbrain.
A bunch of people tried things they have never done before to keep 
customers happy.

Steve

Lon Lentz wrote:
   Steve,
 
   Is this going to affect OM trying to find us Americans someone to
 implement all of the pending hardware fixes?
 
 
 On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com wrote:
 
  Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something
 unique.  i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize
 the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere
 here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community
  on what OM can do to support the community efforts.


 

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Warren Baird
Hi Sean,

Thanks for the honesty.  I'd like to echo Rui's thank you - I've survived a
couple of lay-offs in my day, and I know it's not pleasant for anyone
involved.   I hope that OpenMoko thrives in it's new form.

I've been using my FR as my daily phone for about 6 months now, first with
QtE and recently with OM2009, and although I've had the occasional missed
call, it's overall been an OK experience, and it is getting better and
better...

You have my hopes for smooth sailing and a successful future!

Warren


On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Sean Moss-Pultz s...@openmoko.com wrote:

 Dear Community,

 As some of you have heard, we had a layoff at Openmoko on Monday, May
 25th. First of all let me second the comments made here congratulating
 the Openmoko team on all that was accomplished. And let me add that
 everything accomplished was only possible because of the amazing
 efforts of the community.

 Bringing the Neo products to market, first the 1973 and then the
 Freerunner, has been the most exceptional experience of our lives. I
 can undeniably say that the most important thing we have learned over
 these years is that the power of people bound by ideals, rather than
 contracts, cannot be underestimated. These phones are your success.
 From simple things like group sales to complex undertakings like
 developing and maintaining entire distributions, you made this happen.
 You always came through for us. As CEO, I have to determine the best
 path forward for our phone business. And after long discussions with
 my key people and Board, we've decided that the best path foreword is
 to turn the future of the Freerunner over to the community.

 We've always said that the talent and creativity of those outside the
 company is superior to that inside the company. We have stuck to these
 principles. We've have opened up more than any other phone, from any
 other company, in the history of this industry. Every time we chose
 openness over internal control, we have been rewarded.

 Former Openmoko employees have already started redesigning the
 Freerunner hardware (gta02-core) using only Free Software tools.
 Werner Almesberger, working with many others, has made great progress.
 Recently, we have released more information to accelerate their
 efforts. In the coming weeks, all the design information will be
 handed over to the community along with all of openmoko.org (Wiki,
 GIT, Trac, Planet, ...). Openmoko Inc. then will act as the sponsor of
 this effort. We will continue to fund all necessary server
 infrastructure and support, in areas where corporate help is needed,
 future open phone development. (Parts of this process will require
 legal work - so I request your patience.)

 I am extremely excited about the idea of an entirely community-built
 open phone. Especially since, when the next design is complete, it
 will have the benefits of everything uncovered since the Freerunner
 shipped last July. It will be buzz free, glamo free, and free of the
 recamping bug (#1024) - which I am happy to announce has been solved
 this past week. We promise to support these efforts with additional
 resources such as components to build prototypes of the new design. We
 will help to empower you to build the open phone of our future.

 After all this, there is one last thing that Openmoko the company can
 do: we can enable the community to use the Openmoko brand and
 trademark for these efforts. For us, the Openmoko brand is synonymous
 with the people who built the products: Harald, Mickey, Werner,
 Raster, all of my coworkers in our Taiwan office, Sureda, Tuxbrain,
 Bearstech, and countless others. I personally want to give an extra
 special thanks to Steve Mosher who has taught me so much about
 marketing, writing, and well...life. Without his guidance, this all
 would have only been an idea in my notebook.

 I have asked Steve to lead an effort, over the next few weeks, to
 gather input from the community on how best to implement this
 transition. (He will follow up shortly on the community mailing list.)
 As always we can expect some negative comments, that comes with the
 territory. But we believe a community that owns everything of
 importance, with regard to the Freerunner, will focus efforts and
 energies on the future - not the past.

 Sales of the current FreeRunner (A7), will continue as before. We have
 plenty more in stock. Now that the phone is freed, and its future
 entrusted to the hands of the community, Openmoko Inc. will start
 another effort on an altogether different type of device. We've sized
 our company to go do that task. Please wish us the very best of luck!
 More details will follow in the coming months...


 Sincerely,

 Sean Moss-Pultz

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Steve Mosher
  Community,

To start off I have this list of proposed FAQs kindly generated by 
Werner. I'm going to ask for a volunteer to incorpoate this into an
appropriate place in the wiki.

Any takers?

After the FAQ gets incorporated then we can start to fill it up.

Also, I want to start a wish list or Suggestion list for what kinds
of things OM can do to smooth this transition.

here is Werners List. Adjust as you see fit for presentation.


- I'm using OM2008/2009 now. Will this distribution still be
maintained ? Should I switch ? How ? What will change, what
do I have to learn/unlearn ?

- What will happen with FSO ? Will development continue ?
Will a distribution carry it ?

- What will happen with Paroli ? Will development continue ?
Will a distribution carry it ?

- How will the kernel be maintained ?

- Will Openmoko continue selling FreeRunners ? For how long ?

- I have a purchase/return/warranty/etc. in progress with Openmoko
Inc.  or a distributor. What will happen ?

- I have buzz/#1024/no bass/etc. Can I still get it fixed ?
How ?

- Will the Openmoko Internet resources, Wiki, mailing lists, SVN,
git, downloads, people, trac, etc., be shut down ?

- Will project B continue ?

- What's the future of Open phone hardware without Openmoko Inc. ?


Steve Mosher wrote:
 No, it will not impact the program.
 
I just sealed the deal on that this morning! of course there are 
 details to be worked out so watch this space.
 
 1. we sent out instructions to all the disty a while back.
 2. one of our North american partners had requested the package to
 perform the work ( like Dr. Ns program)
 3. because of the layoff the mail went unanswered for a few days.
 4. the disty wrote me directly and I hooked them up with sean who was on 
 the matter in 5 minutes of my mail.
 5. Sean has assigned a person to make this happen.
 
 I'm working with that disty to make sure that they benefit from Dr. Ns
 approach, so we dont re invent the wheel.
 
 I know you guys have been very patient with us. I trust you wont be 
 disappointed.
 
 Finally, I would like to thank Dr. N for his tireless efforts and 
 imagination in getting this done. And lets not forget david at Tuxbrain.
 A bunch of people tried things they have never done before to keep 
 customers happy.
 
 Steve
 
 Lon Lentz wrote:
   Steve,

   Is this going to affect OM trying to find us Americans someone to
 implement all of the pending hardware fixes?


 On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com wrote:

  Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something
 unique.  i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize
 the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere
 here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community
  on what OM can do to support the community efforts.


 
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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Nelson Castillo
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com wrote:
  Community,

    To start off I have this list of proposed FAQs kindly generated by
 Werner. I'm going to ask for a volunteer to incorpoate this into an
 appropriate place in the wiki.

 Any takers?

Hello Steve.

 - How will the kernel be maintained ?

I'll ask for feedback about this in the kernel mailing list and help
with the FAQ wiki page (If someone else wants to help also please by
all means do). I'll send the email today.

Nelson.-

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Steve Mosher
Hi Nelson,

Thanks good to hear from you. I really enjoyed the pictures you gave 
me from our
last time together in Taipei. Anything you can do to help will be 
appreciated.  

Steve

Nelson Castillo wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com wrote:
   
  Community,

To start off I have this list of proposed FAQs kindly generated by
 Werner. I'm going to ask for a volunteer to incorpoate this into an
 appropriate place in the wiki.

 Any takers?
 

 Hello Steve.

   
 - How will the kernel be maintained ?
 

 I'll ask for feedback about this in the kernel mailing list and help
 with the FAQ wiki page (If someone else wants to help also please by
 all means do). I'll send the email today.

 Nelson.-
   


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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Alexander Chemeris
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 8:44 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote:
 For now, I'm hoping my Freerunner improves enough to last long, as I don't
 expect another Free Software phone to come up anytime soon.

I wouldn't be so much sure.
Don't forget about GizmoForYou project with its Flow, as just an example:
http://www.gizmoforyou.com/comment.php?comment.news.41

FreeRunner has a huge advantage of having the good community, but you
shouldn't say that it's the only viable choice out there.

-- 
Regards,
Alexander Chemeris.

SIPez LLC.
SIP VoIP, IM and Presence Consulting
http://www.SIPez.com
tel: +1 (617) 273-4000

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 12:30:21AM +0400, Alexander Chemeris wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 8:44 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote:
  For now, I'm hoping my Freerunner improves enough to last long, as I don't
  expect another Free Software phone to come up anytime soon.
 
 I wouldn't be so much sure.
 Don't forget about GizmoForYou project with its Flow, as just an example:
 http://www.gizmoforyou.com/comment.php?comment.news.41
 
 FreeRunner has a huge advantage of having the good community, but you
 shouldn't say that it's the only viable choice out there.

Flow looks sleek, but what about it's commitment to Free Software? I really
don't know, can you help me know more?

Rui

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Risto H. Kurppa
Thanks Sean for this announcement!

It's appreciated to get a status update from OM of things we've heard
rumors of. I'm very happy that OM got this far with the phones: we
have some tens of thousands (better guess anyone?) of Linux phones
around the world, various open/free distros to run on the HW and means
to communicate to make it better. I think OM was decent on the
hardware side, it's a great achievement to have manufactured a
open/free Linux-phone. Thank you for that, thank you everyone who
worked on OM for this!

In the future, it'll be interesting to see where gta02-core takes us,
if there will be some other open hardware around to run the apps and
distros we've created for neo1973 and Freerunner. I hope that the rest
of the A7 freerunners will find to good hands, to good an enthusiastic
developers to boost the community to get the most out of our hardware.

On the software side, there has been some glitches and the community
has been lacking the direction. At the moment I myself trust on OM2009
(who knows if there will be a SHR2009 with SHR and OM2009 together)
and Paroli (Started by Openmoko and still being worked on by people
from Openmoko, now also a community is involved that's growing all the
time..). But I see that it's difficult for Openmoko to generate more
income by writing software so concentrating on hardware seems like a
smart choice, as long as there's a community to make the hardware
useful with the software they create.

Now as the community will go 'wild', I'd now, more than ever, like to
see good leadership practices to organize and guide the community. If
you ask me where OM failed, it's this: managing and leading the
community. So I think we'd need some direction where to make people
go, who don't know where to go. We have around 20 distros and phone
apps - I wouldn't like to see this all break in small sub-projects
that all do the same work and don't communicate, but one single big
project that'd actually take us somewhere.

I'd like to see some kind of democratic structure created to guide us
somewhere where most of us want to go.

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/01/building-community-around-your-foss.html

Thank you Openmoko, I wish you all the best with project B. Hope you
generate enough money to roll out new open phones :)

r


-- 
| risto h. kurppa
| risto at kurppa dot fi
| http://risto.kurppa.fi

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Dave Ball
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 12:30:21AM +0400, Alexander Chemeris wrote:
   
 On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 8:44 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org 
 wrote:
 
 For now, I'm hoping my Freerunner improves enough to last long, as I don't
 expect another Free Software phone to come up anytime soon.
   
 Don't forget about GizmoForYou project with its Flow, as just an example:
 http://www.gizmoforyou.com/comment.php?comment.news.41
 
 Flow looks sleek, but what about it's commitment to Free Software? I really
 don't know, can you help me know more?
   

The flow project itself seems pretty open, but it depends on gumsticks, 
which have closed hardware but seem to be widely supported by open 
software  corresponding communities.

It sounds an interesting project, and will be available much sooner than 
the gta02-core or 'future' work which we have started, although these OM 
/ gta derivatives might have more potential in the longer term.

I echo everyone elses thanks to Sean and the rest of the team that have 
had involvement with OM - you guys both achieved a lot, and did so 
openly in a way that gives us a platform to build from.  Through the 
last couple of years and now, thanks for communicating as openly as you 
have.

It's down to us now, and I look forward to both contributing myself, and 
benefiting from the contributions from the whole community.


Dave


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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Dave Ball
Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
 Thanks Sean for this announcement!

 It's appreciated to get a status update from OM of things we've heard
 rumors of. I'm very happy that OM got this far with the phones: we
 have some tens of thousands (better guess anyone?) of Linux phones
 around the world, various open/free distros to run on the HW and means
 to communicate to make it better. I think OM was decent on the
 hardware side, it's a great achievement to have manufactured a
 open/free Linux-phone. Thank you for that, thank you everyone who
 worked on OM for this!
   

ditto!  :-)  And also thanks for the commitments to opening up further 
details, designs and marks in support of the community, and providing 
the om.org infrastructure we're using.

 Now as the community will go 'wild', I'd now, more than ever, like to
 see good leadership practices to organize and guide the community. If
 you ask me where OM failed, it's this: managing and leading the
 community. So I think we'd need some direction where to make people
 go, who don't know where to go. We have around 20 distros and phone
 apps - I wouldn't like to see this all break in small sub-projects
 that all do the same work and don't communicate, but one single big
 project that'd actually take us somewhere.

Diversity has it's advantage, though focus on a smaller number of 
projects has it's own benefits too.  I think it's great that FSO has 
resulted in a stable platform that most of the current distros rely on 
and benefit from.

While there remains interest in the current (or future) distros, my 
personal feeling is that we shouldn't try to kill one, in favour of 
another.  They currently all have strengths and weaknesses, and the 
community as a whole gets strength from their diversity.  We should 
collaborate on any common ground (kernel, fso?, illume?), and allow 
distributions to differentiate where they see appropriate.

I think you are spot on though that we need to be better organised, and 
as individuals, communities and 'leaders' (if that's appropriate) have 
clear asperations and achievable objectives.

Overall, I think clarity and sensible organisation will allow the 
community(ies) to flourish, while supporting as much diversity as the 
different sectors of our community want.


Dave

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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-02 Thread Alexander Chemeris
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:55 AM, Dave Ball openm...@underhand.org wrote:
 Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 12:30:21AM +0400, Alexander Chemeris wrote:

 On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 8:44 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org 
 wrote:

 For now, I'm hoping my Freerunner improves enough to last long, as I don't
 expect another Free Software phone to come up anytime soon.

 Don't forget about GizmoForYou project with its Flow, as just an example:
 http://www.gizmoforyou.com/comment.php?comment.news.41

 Flow looks sleek, but what about it's commitment to Free Software? I really
 don't know, can you help me know more?


 The flow project itself seems pretty open, but it depends on gumsticks,
 which have closed hardware but seem to be widely supported by open
 software  corresponding communities.

That's true. Gumstix open-sources expansion modules and connector specs,
but base modules are kept proprietary. Flow project itself is pretty much
open. IIRC schematics are open and software is open for sure (they target
Android for now). It may be interesting to port OM to it to broaden hardware
support and increase community volume.

 It sounds an interesting project, and will be available much sooner than
 the gta02-core or 'future' work which we have started, although these OM
 / gta derivatives might have more potential in the longer term.

yeah. Also Flow's advantage is its modularity.
On the other hand, I think Flow costs more then Freerunner. But we'll see
how much gta02-core result will cost at the end.

So, it's an interesting alternative and worth looking into, imho.

-- 
Regards,
Alexander Chemeris.

SIPez LLC.
SIP VoIP, IM and Presence Consulting
http://www.SIPez.com
tel: +1 (617) 273-4000

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