Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
OK, the gpv project will focus on a built - in maps in the future. We count on a 8 Gb micro SD that should be more than enough to cover the area of the planned trip. Audrius. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
Having read that patent I feel compelled to submit my latest idea to the US patent office. A turd on a stick We claim: 1. It is a turd 2. It is a stick insert evil laugh On 25/01/2008, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Today I blogged about a company that has a patent on what I would call the essence of putting a GPS in a cell phone. I provided some details on the patent in my blog, but the essence of the story is covered in this excerpt: It appears that, in essence, the patents cover a phone providing current location information to a remote database which returns to the phone a collection of location centric information. According to the patent application, this location centric information could include real estate information, such as homes, condominiums, etc, but also parks, restaurant menus, services offered, hotels, hotel availability, and on and on. This, it appears, is an incredibly broad patent with major implications. Hank -- - whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
On 25 Jan 2008, at 23:17, joerg wrote: ... Hmm... The patent purports to cover getting *any* information based on where you are, including maps. So unless all the map information or whatever information you need can fit on your phone you are not interested in it? I guess you better wait for some *really* big flash memory chips. :) The maps ARE on board for all common GPS car navis (really big 256MB-flash card e.g.). When i need to download e.g. a new country, because traveling from Germany to Spain, this info isn't based on sending my actual GPS-position to a database. Hi there, Google already offers a maps application for cell phones. Just like the web-based app, the version for my Sony Ericsson P990i downloads only images for the area surrounding your search target, and downloads additional images as you scroll the viewing area. This Google maps application supports GPS on Windows Mobile-based cellphones - I'd been inclined to assume that the Neo will be supported shortly after its release - and this would seem to be either infringing or prior art. Stroller. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
On Jan 25, 2008 7:11 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In other words, like it or not, if this patent is valid (who knows) and its scope is what it looks like (I'm not a lawyer) it will have a significant impact on the *phone* world. In other words, *you* consider GTA to be a *phone*, nothing else and not beyond. You're kidding? Like it or not, the GTA/OpenMoko is a *computer* with built in GSM-modem, and i don't think many of the customers will opt for an off-board solution that fails when leaving GSM coverage area, Well, currently, there are *millions* of phones that ship *every month* in the configuration I am describing and *none* that ship in the configuration you are describing. So what customers are *currently* doing is the thing that you are saying people wont opt for. Better tell Apple and RIM (and probably others) to stop selling all those phones - Oh, excuse me... computers. lol. Hank -- - whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
I'm puzzled why you responded *twice* to the same email. And I'm sure somehow you missed the email that was actually a response to your first answer. Again, since you seem to have missed it. The thing that you say no one will opt for (over the air maps), is the way that millions of phones per month are shipped from Apple and RIM today. Therefore the configuration is highly relevant to the *current* phone market. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
http://www.tomtom.com/products/features.php?ID=280Category=2Lid=1 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
On Jan 25, 2008 8:14 PM, Shawn Rutledge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 25, 2008 5:42 PM, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, since you seem to have missed it. The thing that you say no one will opt for (over the air maps), is the way that millions of phones per month are shipped from Apple and RIM today. Therefore the configuration is highly relevant to the *current* phone market. The point that you are missing is that Openmoko doesn't have to do everything the same way Apple and RIM do them; Of course no one has to do anything the way Apple and RIM do it. I think you are missing *my* point. My initial post was that there is a patent that has an effect on the most common usage pattern for location based tools for mobile devices. The odd position, it seems to me, is to suggest that no one should be concerned about a very popular device usage pattern. Obviously there are lots of ways to design things, but to suggest that one very popular way (in fact the primary way) people are doing something is of *no concern* would seem to me to be a myopic attitude. My goal is to provide information. The idea of suggesting that that information doesn't matter which is what Joerg said, is really well... I wont say. I am not sure why providing information should be something that disturbs people so. If its not relevant to you, ignore it. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
Hi, Today, as already mentioned, Navit can use embedded maps from OpenStreetMap or proprietary maps. Since France is not yet very detailled in OSM, I am using an european map bought online, more than 2GB of flash are needed. Nevertheless, even with these data, it would be interesting to dynamically populate the map using an external database (for example cinema currently playing a film, etc...). I met also recently such issues in looking naively for possible haptic applications, for example simply activating the vibrator when a key is pressed. It seems there is a wall in this realm (search keyphrase: haptic patent portfolio). Is such a simple feature legal or not in a free software? what are the bounds (countries, features) ? Without clear advices, sadly some development in this area will be delayed or even not started. Gilles ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
hank williams wrote: Hmm... ok, so it comes with it but you cant use it without paying? You can use TeleNav if you know where you are and where you're going. You only have to pay the extra $10 for the TeleNav service to use the GPS on the phone. Without the GPS, it'll still give you the turn-by-turn directions, but you have to manually advance the steps (much like Google Maps) as you travel. -id ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
let's move this thread to blackberry, iPhone, or google forum. I think we're boring others here, because this is the *OpenMoko* forum, and i don't see how the 'impact on *current* phone market' -however highly intriguing- has anything in common with what we are talking here: **GTA** j ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
hank williams wrote: I don't think any phones are going to come with navigation data built in. To my knowldge, the Samsung Blackjack 2 from ATT includes maps from TeleNav. You have to pay an extra $10/month to use GPS with those maps of course, so I just use the Mobile Google Maps application which uses the GPS on the Blackjack 2 just fine. -id ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
The maps ARE on board for all common GPS car navis (really big 256MB-flash card e.g.). In *cars*, not phones. btw: there have been on-board(!) navi solutions for phones(!) even before iPhone hit the market. This is the *Openmoko* list. We're talking *phones* here. Sure bout that? I don't think any phones are going to come with navigation data built in. Good point. In fact you have to buy the software separately. see TomTom e.g. For example Blackberrys have GPS but do not have the maps built in. That data comes from the network. Same with the new iPhone functionality, which uses Google Maps. So what? And I presume no Openmoko phones are going to ship with location data. I hope so! I'm not eager to pay for data i might never use. But OM/GTA ships with card-slot for data cards. OTOH i'm sure GTA never will ship with a software that inevitably is sending my GPS data to any outside database. What means this patent to OM/me than?? This is the *Openmoko* list. We're talking GTA here, not business models of service providers like google-maps. Will my GTA break, when google gets involved in a lawsuit about some patent? Your personal feelings about how location data should be used don't really map to the way most expect to use phone + gps technology. Now you're absolutely sure here? j ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
On Jan 25, 2008 7:47 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hank williams wrote: I don't think any phones are going to come with navigation data built in. To my knowldge, the Samsung Blackjack 2 from ATT includes maps from TeleNav. You have to pay an extra $10/month to use GPS with those maps of course, so I just use the Mobile Google Maps application which uses the GPS on the Blackjack 2 just fine. Hmm... ok, so it comes with it but you cant use it without paying? Thats kinda like not coming with isnt it? In any case so you are, as I suggest most will, using Google Maps. Which is indeed the point. The patent I am referring to relates to this over-the-air maps scenario, which is, as far as I can tell, the dominant scenario on cell phones. Hank. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
On Jan 25, 2008 6:17 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm... The patent purports to cover getting *any* information based on where you are, including maps. So unless all the map information or whatever information you need can fit on your phone you are not interested in it? I guess you better wait for some *really* big flash memory chips. :) The maps ARE on board for all common GPS car navis (really big 256MB-flash card e.g.). In *cars*, not phones. This is the *Openmoko* list. We're talking *phones* here. I don't think any phones are going to come with navigation data built in. For example Blackberrys have GPS but do not have the maps built in. That data comes from the network. Same with the new iPhone functionality, which uses Google Maps. And I presume no Openmoko phones are going to ship with location data. So while none of this may be relevant to you, this discussion is about (at least in my mind) the modern phone technology and how to apply it. Your personal feelings about how location data should be used don't really map to the way most expect to use phone + gps technology. In other words, like it or not, if this patent is valid (who knows) and its scope is what it looks like (I'm not a lawyer) it will have a significant impact on the *phone* world. Hank Hank -- - whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
Hmm... The patent purports to cover getting *any* information based on where you are, including maps. So unless all the map information or whatever information you need can fit on your phone you are not interested in it? I guess you better wait for some *really* big flash memory chips. :) The maps ARE on board for all common GPS car navis (really big 256MB-flash card e.g.). When i need to download e.g. a new country, because traveling from Germany to Spain, this info isn't based on sending my actual GPS-position to a database. So their patent is not applicable anyway. The so called off board solutions, where you have to pay for each route or a monthly fee, night be affected, but i don't mind. It's the provider who has to pay in this case. j ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
Am Fr 25. Januar 2008 schrieb hank williams: [...] It appears that, in essence, the patents cover a phone providing current location information to a remote database which returns to the phone a collection of location centric information. According to the patent application, this location centric information could include real estate information, such as homes, condominiums, etc, but also parks, restaurant menus, services offered, hotels, hotel availability, and on and on. Whatever they might have (or think they have) with this patent, i don't mind. I *never* will give away GPS-data from my private cell phone to a centralized database, may it be google, TomTom, or whoever. I like my privacy, and even hate being traced by GSM-cell handover right now for 6 months storage of data in whole europe right since start of year. :-( And even less i need location centric info based on this DB. Anyway the whole thing is a hoax. Probably this scenario was in the application papers they handed out the men with the money when they tried to get GPS up and running, way back last millenium. j ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
On Jan 25, 2008 8:33 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.tomtom.com/products/features.php?ID=280Category=2Lid=1 Now I guess I should post a link to an iPhone commercial. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
In other words, like it or not, if this patent is valid (who knows) and its scope is what it looks like (I'm not a lawyer) it will have a significant impact on the *phone* world. In other words, *you* consider GTA to be a *phone*, nothing else and not beyond. You're kidding? Like it or not, the GTA/OpenMoko is a *computer* with built in GSM-modem, and i don't think many of the customers will opt for an off-board solution that fails when leaving GSM coverage area, while they got the cpu-power to calculate the route and may *easily* feed the hilarious amount of 256MB map data to their 4GB local storage, thus saving the 1.5$ per server-side route calculation off-board. This patent might have impact on future forms of advertisement, or even on the fee you have to pay for off-board route calculation (if you think you need such a stupid thing), but i don't feel it will influence any of the things i ever could imagine i plan to do with a GSM enabled PDA. j ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
I'm all for companies trying to sue based on broad patents like this. The more broad and ridiculous they are, the better. Maybe people will start opening their eyes to all of the troubles in our current patent system. On Jan 25, 2008 1:00 PM, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Today I blogged about a companyhttp://whydoeseverythingsuck.com/2008/01/are-apple-rim-and-google-all.htmlthat has a patent on what I would call the essence of putting a GPS in a cell phone. I provided some details on the patent in my blog, but the essence of the story is covered in this excerpt: It appears that, in essence, the patents cover a phone providing current location information to a remote database which returns to the phone a collection of location centric information. According to the patent application, this location centric information could include real estate information, such as homes, condominiums, etc, but also parks, restaurant menus, services offered, hotels, hotel availability, and on and on. This, it appears, is an incredibly broad patent with major implications. Hank -- - whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS/Cell phone patent issue
On Jan 25, 2008 5:37 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am Fr 25. Januar 2008 schrieb hank williams: [...] It appears that, in essence, the patents cover a phone providing current location information to a remote database which returns to the phone a collection of location centric information. According to the patent application, this location centric information could include real estate information, such as homes, condominiums, etc, but also parks, restaurant menus, services offered, hotels, hotel availability, and on and on. Whatever they might have (or think they have) with this patent, i don't mind. I *never* will give away GPS-data from my private cell phone to a centralized database, may it be google, TomTom, or whoever. I like my privacy, and even hate being traced by GSM-cell handover right now for 6 months storage of data in whole europe right since start of year. :-( And even less i need location centric info based on this DB. Hmm... The patent purports to cover getting *any* information based on where you are, including maps. So unless all the map information or whatever information you need can fit on your phone you are not interested in it? I guess you better wait for some *really* big flash memory chips. :) Hank - whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
