Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-03-02 Thread Andy Green
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Somebody in the thread at some point said:
 On Sun, 2008-03-02 at 13:21 +1100, clare wrote:
 Andy I do hope you will put as much as you can back into GTA01, as I
 have real hopes now of using mine regularly.
 
 +1 from me too :)

I think we can say it shouldn't make things any worse, but many
improvements recently on GTA02 suspend current have been hardware
changes, so it won't be exactly the same.

- -Andy
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-03-01 Thread Marco Trevisan (Treviño)

Andy Green ha scritto:

Depends on what you're doing with it... is the backlight on all the
time... making a call... I can't give you a straight answer because I
didn't examine this yet.  Instead I spent all my time around power
consumption looking to optimize suspend current since that can involve
circuit changes.


That's reasonable...
Btw I know that the neo is more a computer than a phone, so its power 
compsumation depends much on what you're doing with it; btw let's 
consider it only just as a phone, and so I'm curious about the two 
standard values that generally vendors claim: standby time and 
conversation time.



For suspended time with GSM modem off we have the consumption down to
~2mA and I expect that will improve further by software changes, so on a
1200mAh battery like we ship maybe it can last 20 days (unverified!)
doing nothing at the moment.  With GSM modem on in suspend maybe 5 days


Ok, 5 days of standby time is quite good, but could it be greater?
I've heard that the iPhone, for example, has a standby-time really much 
long...



Whatever the figure is for usage time it will change by a factor of 5
or 10 depending if you run the GSM transmitter, wifi, CPU is always
busy, GPS, and the worst suspect the backlight, so you need to define
exactly what you do with the device during this usage to get a
meaningful figure.


Of course...
Btw I think that my average day usage will be something like: GSM always 
working, wifi for about 1 or 2 hours, some sms (1 or 2) and calls (about 
half hour). In such conditions, do you have an idea about how much will 
the neo stay up?


I'm also figuring another usage-way while traveling using both the GSM 
on standby and the GPS up (with a maps software): any idea about this?


Bye

--
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http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-03-01 Thread clare

Andy I do hope you will put as much as you can back into GTA01, as I
have real hopes now of using mine regularly.

thanks
clare


On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Andy Green wrote:


I think we will improve this a small amount in kernel updates we already
know we can do, but how much I don't know.  We already know we waste
current with bad GPIO levels in suspend and can fix them (I have a list
here to do).  Also I derated these estimates somewhat just in case
since I did not verify them.  So I expect we exceed this figure soon.



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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-03-01 Thread Tim Knapp
On Sun, 2008-03-02 at 13:21 +1100, clare wrote:
 Andy I do hope you will put as much as you can back into GTA01, as I
 have real hopes now of using mine regularly.

+1 from me too :)

-Tim

 
 thanks
 clare
 
 
 On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Andy Green wrote:
 
  I think we will improve this a small amount in kernel updates we already
  know we can do, but how much I don't know.  We already know we waste
  current with bad GPIO levels in suspend and can fix them (I have a list
  here to do).  Also I derated these estimates somewhat just in case
  since I did not verify them.  So I expect we exceed this figure soon.
 
 
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-29 Thread Shawn Rutledge
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Uncle Kridley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 joerg wrote:
   - charge from any host (incl simplistic chargers): 100mA (6-12h)
   - charge from intelligent host: 500mA (1-2h)
   - charge from quickcharger with magic R: 1500mA (1h)

  Ahh, ok, that makes a lot more sense.  I generally charge overnight, so
  when I'm traveling, the difference between 100mA  500mA won't be an issue.

It will be a big difference unless you plan to turn your phone off
while you charge it, because it will probably consume quite a bit of
current in the case that GSM is on but the rest of the phone is
semi-sleeping.  Maybe even more than 100mA.

As long as the Neo will support at least 500mA charging from a dumb
charger with a magic resistor value (or some shorted pins), including
existing chargers of this kind (like the Motorola ones), that should
be good for charging on-the-go.  Having it take only 100mA from such
chargers is unacceptable.

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-29 Thread Marco Trevisan (Treviño)

Andy Green ha scritto:

Somebody in the thread at some point said:


- charge from any host (incl simplistic chargers): 100mA (6-12h)
- charge from intelligent host: 500mA (1-2h)
- charge from quickcharger with magic R: 1500mA (1h)


This is pretty accurate Joerg but on this last one the total current
drawn from the adapter is limited to 1A max by the PMU.  So we charge at
~700mA or so the rest goes to power the device.


Ok about charging, but what's exactly now the status of discharging on 
GTA02 devices?
I mean... How long is actually running a (pre-)Freerunner without 
charging it?


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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-29 Thread Andy Green
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Somebody in the thread at some point said:

 Ok about charging, but what's exactly now the status of discharging on
 GTA02 devices?
 I mean... How long is actually running a (pre-)Freerunner without
 charging it?

Depends on what you're doing with it... is the backlight on all the
time... making a call... I can't give you a straight answer because I
didn't examine this yet.  Instead I spent all my time around power
consumption looking to optimize suspend current since that can involve
circuit changes.

For suspended time with GSM modem off we have the consumption down to
~2mA and I expect that will improve further by software changes, so on a
1200mAh battery like we ship maybe it can last 20 days (unverified!)
doing nothing at the moment.  With GSM modem on in suspend maybe 5 days
(unverified!).

Whatever the figure is for usage time it will change by a factor of 5
or 10 depending if you run the GSM transmitter, wifi, CPU is always
busy, GPS, and the worst suspect the backlight, so you need to define
exactly what you do with the device during this usage to get a
meaningful figure.

Generally I would expect over time we can improve performance in
software, like dimming the backlight gently quite soon after the last
action, getting the backlight off quickly, and getting into suspend
quickly between actions from the user.

- -Andy
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-28 Thread joerg
Am Do  28. Februar 2008 schrieb Andre Lanvermann:
 I read the Archives and found this Topic. I own a T-Mobile MDA Vario. 
 The device is
 charged via USB too. And theay included an USB Wallcharger. Have anybody 
 allready checked
 this charger?
 
 
 Device Data:
 Delta Electronics inc.
 AC Adapter HTC P/N: 79H00051-02M
 Model: ADP-5FH C
 Input: 100-240V~ 0,2A 50-60hz
 Output: 5V = 1A LPS
 Frequency Level 4

What i've learned so far:
The strange thing with USB-charger is a resistor of certain Ohms (47k IIRC) 
that's supposed to connect 2 pins of the charger's plug to identify 
OM-charger.
I can't say whether this is standard for USB-chargers, or what will happen 
when NEO doesn't sense this resistor on USB-power detection.
Charging seems to be controlled by the main CPU via PCU-chip. If there's no 
CPU control e.g. due to completely flat accu, only a very low secure trickle 
charge takes place (-if you can't power on your NEO, connect to USB and try 
again after ~30 min...). There are chances this will be the same for missing 
resistor, depending on what logic is in the driver.
Maybe one of the devs may shed some more light on this.

jOERG

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-28 Thread Andre Lanvermann
Oooh, the it seems i missunderstood the previous Messages. I was sure 
that there is NO Charger

for the NEO Except the USB Port of a Computer. Im sorry :(


Greetings

Andre


joerg schrieb:

Am Do  28. Februar 2008 schrieb Andre Lanvermann:
  
I read the Archives and found this Topic. I own a T-Mobile MDA Vario. 
The device is
charged via USB too. And theay included an USB Wallcharger. Have anybody 
allready checked

this charger?


Device Data:
Delta Electronics inc.
AC Adapter HTC P/N: 79H00051-02M
Model: ADP-5FH C
Input: 100-240V~ 0,2A 50-60hz
Output: 5V = 1A LPS
Frequency Level 4



What i've learned so far:
The strange thing with USB-charger is a resistor of certain Ohms (47k IIRC) 
that's supposed to connect 2 pins of the charger's plug to identify 
OM-charger.
I can't say whether this is standard for USB-chargers, or what will happen 
when NEO doesn't sense this resistor on USB-power detection.
Charging seems to be controlled by the main CPU via PCU-chip. If there's no 
CPU control e.g. due to completely flat accu, only a very low secure trickle 
charge takes place (-if you can't power on your NEO, connect to USB and try 
again after ~30 min...). There are chances this will be the same for missing 
resistor, depending on what logic is in the driver.

Maybe one of the devs may shed some more light on this.

jOERG

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-28 Thread joerg
Am Do  28. Februar 2008 schrieb Andre Lanvermann:
 Oooh, the it seems i missunderstood the previous Messages. I was sure 
 that there is NO Charger
 for the NEO Except the USB Port of a Computer. Im sorry :(

from
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#Charger
___ Charger ___
AKII Technology Charger 
Model: A10P1-05MP 
Input: 100-240v~ /0.3A 
Output: +5v up to 2.0A 
Add 47.5k 1% resistor between ID pin and ground for openmoko charger 
identification

Anyway a good question, whether there will be other chargers working with 
GTA02

jOERG

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-28 Thread Bobby Martin
In case some of you aren't on the device owners list I posted this to
before, I created a script that will detect when you're plugged into a
charger that's causing a slow (100mA) charge and will ask if you want
to do fast charge instead.

Examples of such chargers include a car charger, the usb port on a
Windows computer without the Neo inf installed, etc.



I created a script to monitor for slow charge and pop up a gui asking
if you want to switch to fast charge mode.  The default instructions
install the script and an init.d script to start  stop it, as well as
links to make the daemon start automatically.

The page telling how to install is
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script

From the page:
What it does

Your neo will detect when it is charging slowly and pop up a gui to
ask if you want to switch to fast charge mode. It will take a few
seconds to detect that you are charging slowly.

Details

checkFastCharge will remember if you select slow charge and not ask
you again. If you accidentally selected slow charge, unplug the neo
from the charger for several seconds, then plug it back in. Next time
the script checks, it will ask again if you want slow or fast charge.

When you select fast charge, the script goes through a confirmation
sequence, because fast charge can be dangerous for your hardware if
the charger doesn't support 500 mA or more. Just click 'Confirm' four
times to confirm that you want to go into fast charge mode.

Let me know if you see obvious improvements, or if you want to make an
ipkg of it (I will eventually do so myself...), or if you know a
better place for me to host the download.
Bobby

 Am Do  28. Februar 2008 schrieb Andre Lanvermann:
   I read the Archives and found this Topic. I own a T-Mobile MDA Vario.
   The device is
   charged via USB too. And theay included an USB Wallcharger. Have anybody
   allready checked
   this charger?
  
  
   Device Data:
   Delta Electronics inc.
   AC Adapter HTC P/N: 79H00051-02M
   Model: ADP-5FH C
   Input: 100-240V~ 0,2A 50-60hz
   Output: 5V = 1A LPS
   Frequency Level 4

  What i've learned so far:
  The strange thing with USB-charger is a resistor of certain Ohms (47k IIRC)
  that's supposed to connect 2 pins of the charger's plug to identify
  OM-charger.
  I can't say whether this is standard for USB-chargers, or what will happen
  when NEO doesn't sense this resistor on USB-power detection.
  Charging seems to be controlled by the main CPU via PCU-chip. If there's no
  CPU control e.g. due to completely flat accu, only a very low secure trickle
  charge takes place (-if you can't power on your NEO, connect to USB and try
  again after ~30 min...). There are chances this will be the same for missing
  resistor, depending on what logic is in the driver.
  Maybe one of the devs may shed some more light on this.

  jOERG

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-28 Thread Michael Shiloh

Bobby,

I'm glad you posted this again, I've been meaning to tell you I'll be 
happy to host your script on downloads.openmoko.org. Shall I just copy 
the script from your host?


Michael

Bobby Martin wrote:

In case some of you aren't on the device owners list I posted this to
before, I created a script that will detect when you're plugged into a
charger that's causing a slow (100mA) charge and will ask if you want
to do fast charge instead.

Examples of such chargers include a car charger, the usb port on a
Windows computer without the Neo inf installed, etc.



I created a script to monitor for slow charge and pop up a gui asking
if you want to switch to fast charge mode.  The default instructions
install the script and an init.d script to start  stop it, as well as
links to make the daemon start automatically.

The page telling how to install is
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script


From the page:

What it does

Your neo will detect when it is charging slowly and pop up a gui to
ask if you want to switch to fast charge mode. It will take a few
seconds to detect that you are charging slowly.

Details

checkFastCharge will remember if you select slow charge and not ask
you again. If you accidentally selected slow charge, unplug the neo
from the charger for several seconds, then plug it back in. Next time
the script checks, it will ask again if you want slow or fast charge.

When you select fast charge, the script goes through a confirmation
sequence, because fast charge can be dangerous for your hardware if
the charger doesn't support 500 mA or more. Just click 'Confirm' four
times to confirm that you want to go into fast charge mode.

Let me know if you see obvious improvements, or if you want to make an
ipkg of it (I will eventually do so myself...), or if you know a
better place for me to host the download.
Bobby


Am Do  28. Februar 2008 schrieb Andre Lanvermann:
  I read the Archives and found this Topic. I own a T-Mobile MDA Vario.
  The device is
  charged via USB too. And theay included an USB Wallcharger. Have anybody
  allready checked
  this charger?
 
 
  Device Data:
  Delta Electronics inc.
  AC Adapter HTC P/N: 79H00051-02M
  Model: ADP-5FH C
  Input: 100-240V~ 0,2A 50-60hz
  Output: 5V = 1A LPS
  Frequency Level 4

 What i've learned so far:
 The strange thing with USB-charger is a resistor of certain Ohms (47k IIRC)
 that's supposed to connect 2 pins of the charger's plug to identify
 OM-charger.
 I can't say whether this is standard for USB-chargers, or what will happen
 when NEO doesn't sense this resistor on USB-power detection.
 Charging seems to be controlled by the main CPU via PCU-chip. If there's no
 CPU control e.g. due to completely flat accu, only a very low secure trickle
 charge takes place (-if you can't power on your NEO, connect to USB and try
 again after ~30 min...). There are chances this will be the same for missing
 resistor, depending on what logic is in the driver.
 Maybe one of the devs may shed some more light on this.

 jOERG


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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-28 Thread Bobby Martin
Thanks, Michael!  Just downloading the script from my host works for
me.  Please let me know when you have the hosting moved so I can
update the wiki page.

I will also soon have an interim solution for importing contacts from
the SIM into the address book for you to put up there, too :-)

I need to get my stuff into revision control, too.  I'll try to get it
into projects.openmoko.org soon.

 Subject: Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)
 Bobby,

  I'm glad you posted this again, I've been meaning to tell you I'll be
  happy to host your script on downloads.openmoko.org. Shall I just copy
  the script from your host?

  Michael

  Bobby Martin wrote:
   In case some of you aren't on the device owners list I posted this to
   before, I created a script that will detect when you're plugged into a
   charger that's causing a slow (100mA) charge and will ask if you want
   to do fast charge instead.

[snip]

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-28 Thread joerg
Am Do  28. Februar 2008 schrieb Uncle Kridley:
 Michael Shiloh wrote:
  There will be a charger for the Neo Freerunner, which has the secret
  resistor jOERG mentions below.
 
 Does this mean that it won't charge (or will only charge slowly) from a
 generic USB connector/charger?  Part of the point of USB charging is
 that you don't need a proprietary charger for every device you own.  If
 the Freerunner won't charge off generic USB, I'll be sad.

Though i have no clue what's really going on with this, there are some facts 
that might help imagine:
- USB-clients (like NEO in charge mode) may pull 100mA from a USB-host. 
With advertising (i guess, via some USB-data protocol), a device may increase 
allowable current to 500mA. However many clients break this spec, by either 
not advertising or drawing 500mA. 
- Everything over 500mA is considered illegal and may (also _should_ not) 
damage host USB adapters. (there are chances to kill a laptop USB port with 
external HD-drives! If both are sloppy designed)
- For quick charge purposes, NEO might well take 1 - 2 A from USB adapter. 
However extreme care should be taken not to smoke up a poor designed host.

So maybe: 
- charge from any host (incl simplistic chargers): 100mA (6-12h)
- charge from intelligent host: 500mA (1-2h)
- charge from quickcharger with magic R: 1500mA (1h)
Switching to fast and/or ultrafast charge mode possible also with prev. 
mentioned script.

jOERG

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-28 Thread Uncle Kridley
joerg wrote:
 - charge from any host (incl simplistic chargers): 100mA (6-12h)
 - charge from intelligent host: 500mA (1-2h)
 - charge from quickcharger with magic R: 1500mA (1h)

Ahh, ok, that makes a lot more sense.  I generally charge overnight, so
when I'm traveling, the difference between 100mA  500mA won't be an issue.

Thanks to Joerg  Andy for clearing this up.

-- 
   --
  Dirk Bergstrom   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://otisbean.com/

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-15 Thread Andy Green
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:
 Am Fr  15. Februar 2008 schrieb Andy Green:
 Still for quite a few embedded tasks I2C or LVTTL UART --
 let's not forget USB OTG 12Mbps host from the mini USB B connector --
 will be enough to make a practical solution though.
 Good point! If i need additional GPIO, so what. I got I2C, so i just chain up 
 some with a dirt cheap chip.
 The interfacing of the smart battery in GTA01 shouldn't be a big thing this 
 way.
 Homebrew I2C-GPIO driver, patching GPIO_Bat DEF in src for GTA02 smartbat 
 driver. 

Well you need a bit of caution on that particular one because the smart
battery uses a 1 wire type protocol called HDQ that is reasonably
time-sensitive and uses a width of 0 level encoding scheme to define
the bit state.  So ~~~._.~ can be a '0' and ~~.__.~ can be a '1' for
example.  The crisis comes with that when you receive the data back from
the battery, you have to sample it in a fairly stable way to assess the
'0' length on the wire.  See the bq27000 datasheet link I posted before
for details and timing.

In Linux, the I2C stack has a nasty gotcha, it cannot work from
interrupt context, and in fact if you have interrupts on you are screwed
anyway because other interrupts like USB or whatever can come take take
the CPU for considerable periods making your IO crazy jittery.  If you
try to get around that by using a workqueue so it is out of interrupt
context, then your IO is insanely jittery at scheduler granularity and
depending on userspace load :-)  So sampling that HDQ '0' length becomes
difficult.

You can square the circle by disabling interrupts and doing your own I2C
bitbang via GPIO from CPU, and spinning for the right period between I2C
actions, but the owns the CPU for many ms each time.  Its probably okay
since one doesn't read the battery very often.  But you can see it is a
bit more of an advanced project.

On GTA02 I used a single CPU GPIO with a FIQ driver triggered off a
timer, with the HDQ protocol implemented in a state machine in the FIQ
ISR to beat these restrictions.  The patches for both the FIQ driver and
the HDQ and BQ27000 drivers are in the kernel mailing list archives.  If
people want to provide patches to reuse ANY GTA02 work that is done for
GTA01, that will be really welcome.

 So real issue left for some projects is which power should i use 
 (especially 
 for those devices that don't do their own power-down).

Its going to depend on the current you need.  IO_3V3 is unswitched but
high current.  Really I think for most projects, the real answer is the
USB OTG Host connector.  You don't have to open the case and it provides
switched power for you.

 And i wonder whether there will be *good* (near circuit diagram) specs for 
 the 
 connectors. I.E.:

Well I am under NDA, but some of these datasheets are available in the
world and the answers may not be a million miles away from the typical
application circuits in there.

 *-what kind of OverVoltage-Protection (clamp-diodes etc) / HF-blocking / 
 ground potential..., can i expect behind any external connector.

I have to leave that, but there is EMC and ESD protection considered on
them all.

 *-What exactly is the impedance (R, C) of headset out, what are the absolute 
 maximum ratings (so i may figure out e.g. whether the headset out makes for a 
 high-quality (HiFi) 1,[EMAIL PROTECTED] line out, or should i plan for a 56R 
 load 
 instead of the standard 10k-50k).

http://www.national.com/ds.cgi/LM/LM4853.pdf

 *-USB-host power shortcircuit...? Will it blow my battery or whole NEO up in 
 smoke? ;-). 

http://www.analogictech.com/products/digitalfiles/AAT1275.pdf

- -Andy
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-15 Thread Bradley Hook
How much juice does the display eat up when it's active? I assume it's a 
considerable amount. Could we have the ability to drop the phone into a 
minimalist mode, where all the fluff is disabled but bare-basic 
features continue to work?
For example, kill the wifi, GPS, bluetooth, and even the display. If you 
are in a crunch and want to extend your phone's call-time capacity, you 
could probably deal with approximating a 3 col, 5 row standard phone 
keypad on the touch-screen WITHOUT the screen displaying anything.
Maybe it's a silly idea, but I know I find myself stuck all the time in 
a situation where I wont be able to get my phone back on a charger like 
I had planned to. When it comes down to it, the Neo is a phone first, 
and I'd rather have it act as such when I'm in a bind.


~Bradley

Michael Shiloh wrote:



Nick Guenther wrote:

On Feb 8, 2008 4:04 AM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello,

I've researched this a little, and this is what I've learned:

1. We are still looking at a number of different batteries, so there is
no final capacity or feature set determined yet.

2. The capacity will most likely be around 1200mA.

If you find any place on the wiki that says something other than 1200mA,
can you please make the correction? You may reference this email.


Oh. That's... really disappointing. The battery life is already
unusable, and the faster processor and wifi will just make this even
worse.



We are well aware of software changes we need to make in order to 
improve battery and have simply not had the time to do this. You can 
expect much better battery life when we implement these changes.


In fact if you look in the archives of the kernel mailing list you will 
see that a tremendous amount of progress has happened over the past few 
days. I think the current SVN code supports a much improved suspend mode 
that my very simple testing suggests should last for well over 12 hours. 
And work continues.


Michael

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-15 Thread Michael Shiloh

Hi Bradley,

This is all being discussed extensively on the kernel mailing list (ML).

Yes, there will be ways to reduce consumption by turning off unnecessary 
stuff. There are multiple levels of suspension, each with a range of 
components turned on or turned off. Of course once the structure is in 
place, we will all be free to customize this to our hearts content.


As a hacker, I can do this all in code, but as a user, I would hope to 
see menus which allow you to create a new mode at run time and to select 
in quite high resolution which components you wanted powered or unpowered.


If this is a topic that interests you, I urge you to join the kernel ML, 
or at least to look through the archives of the past few days.


Michael

Bradley Hook wrote:
How much juice does the display eat up when it's active? I assume it's a 
considerable amount. Could we have the ability to drop the phone into a 
minimalist mode, where all the fluff is disabled but bare-basic 
features continue to work?
For example, kill the wifi, GPS, bluetooth, and even the display. If you 
are in a crunch and want to extend your phone's call-time capacity, you 
could probably deal with approximating a 3 col, 5 row standard phone 
keypad on the touch-screen WITHOUT the screen displaying anything.
Maybe it's a silly idea, but I know I find myself stuck all the time in 
a situation where I wont be able to get my phone back on a charger like 
I had planned to. When it comes down to it, the Neo is a phone first, 
and I'd rather have it act as such when I'm in a bind.


~Bradley

Michael Shiloh wrote:



Nick Guenther wrote:

On Feb 8, 2008 4:04 AM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello,

I've researched this a little, and this is what I've learned:

1. We are still looking at a number of different batteries, so there is
no final capacity or feature set determined yet.

2. The capacity will most likely be around 1200mA.

If you find any place on the wiki that says something other than 
1200mA,

can you please make the correction? You may reference this email.


Oh. That's... really disappointing. The battery life is already
unusable, and the faster processor and wifi will just make this even
worse.



We are well aware of software changes we need to make in order to 
improve battery and have simply not had the time to do this. You can 
expect much better battery life when we implement these changes.


In fact if you look in the archives of the kernel mailing list you 
will see that a tremendous amount of progress has happened over the 
past few days. I think the current SVN code supports a much improved 
suspend mode that my very simple testing suggests should last for well 
over 12 hours. And work continues.


Michael

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread joerg
Am Do  14. Februar 2008 schrieb Kyle Bassett:
 I have been following the Suspended Mode thread in the kernel ML and they
 have made amazing progress within the last week.  As GTA02A5 currently
 stands, a cold suspend mode (just GSM in standby awaiting incoming
 call/sms), could result in 20 days of standby!
 
 For those technical people on this list, they have gotten GTA02A5 in suspend
 using ~2.07mA @ 3.7v (fully charged batt).  If the GTA02 will have a 1200mAh
 battery, that's ~24 days of suspend runtime in a perfect world. 

No! Even in a perfect world, GSM-BS is telling to MS a T321-timecycle to 
reregister. So you have to add to this figure some seconds of full TX-power 
consumption e.g. every 40min. (put any cellphone near a walkman for some 
hours, and you may hear...)
Please note that these things a controlled by BaseStation and dependent of 
current RF-quality (at least for MS-TX power), so you hardly will get 
reproduceable values with a simple test on desktop.



Is there a RTC-Alarm in GTA02, to schedule the cron-jobs mentioned up-topic?

cheers
j

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread Steven **
This would definitely be good.  I have Bluetooth disabled on my
current phone almost all the time.  As rarely as I use BT, there's no
need to have it always on.  I anticipate similar usage for wifi for
me.  So, I would love to be able to turn those two off and back from
the icons at the top.

-Steven

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 1:38 AM, Kyle Bassett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 There is talk about pushing startup power control of the internal devices
 (wifi, bt, gps, mmc, etc.) to user level, as every user may or may not want
 certain devices available at bootup/all the time (availability vs.
 duration).

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread Paul Jimenez
On Thursday, Feb 14, 2008, Kyle Bassett writes:
There is talk about pushing startup power control of the internal devices
(wifi, bt, gps, mmc, etc.) to user level, as every user may or may not want
certain devices available at bootup/all the time (availability vs.
duration).

Indeed, this along with good realtime stats on power usage and current
battery level would let people have reasonably accurate predictions of
their battery life.  It'd be interesting (to me at least) to turn
on and off the various peripherals and watch my projected battery life
go up and down accordingly.

  --pj


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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread Andy Green
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:
 On Thursday, Feb 14, 2008, Kyle Bassett writes:
 There is talk about pushing startup power control of the internal devices
 (wifi, bt, gps, mmc, etc.) to user level, as every user may or may not want
 certain devices available at bootup/all the time (availability vs.
 duration).
 
 Indeed, this along with good realtime stats on power usage and current
 battery level would let people have reasonably accurate predictions of
 their battery life.  It'd be interesting (to me at least) to turn
 on and off the various peripherals and watch my projected battery life
 go up and down accordingly.

GTA02 is capable to dialogue with a smart battery that will allow you
to see the battery actual voltage and current flow (together: actual
power) in uA down /sys in realtime, it uses the linux Power Supply
class to expose it so it is generic.  (I don't know for sure if it will
ship with such a battery since it is decided in .tw according to
availability and so on, but I hope it will.)

The battery itself learns its cell performance over load and also makes
available its time to full/empty estimate down /sys as well in
seconds.  You can see what data is available here:

http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/bq27000

You can see stuff like this

for i in capacity charge_full current_now present status technology temp
time_to_empty_now time_to_full_now type voltage_now ; do echo -n $i
 ; cat /sys/devices/platform/bq27000-battery.0/power_supply/bat/$i ; done

 capacity0
 charge_full1215585
 current_now183375
 present1
 statusDischarging
 technologyLi-ion
 temp276
 time_to_empty_now0
 time_to_full_now3932100
 typeBattery
 voltage_now2761000

- -Andy
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHtG+yOjLpvpq7dMoRAq2TAJoCYOC+PD3gj/jRMpOPnBL5MZJkzQCfTJn4
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread Kyle Bassett
For reference, the numbers I came up with are for absolute minimum power
usage for GTA02.  These figures are still *very* preliminary, but I wanted
to convey the success of the last few weeks.  We should probably expect a
standby time closer to ~7 days, that way any improvement over this runtime
will be to our benefit.  As we all know, no lab environment or test bench
can account for all of the scenarios in the real world, making it very
difficult to approach perfect world operation.

-Kyle



On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 6:32 AM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Am Do  14. Februar 2008 schrieb Kyle Bassett:
  I have been following the Suspended Mode thread in the kernel ML and
 they
  have made amazing progress within the last week.  As GTA02A5 currently
  stands, a cold suspend mode (just GSM in standby awaiting incoming
  call/sms), could result in 20 days of standby!
 
  For those technical people on this list, they have gotten GTA02A5 in
 suspend
  using ~2.07mA @ 3.7v (fully charged batt).  If the GTA02 will have a
 1200mAh
  battery, that's ~24 days of suspend runtime in a perfect world.

 No! Even in a perfect world, GSM-BS is telling to MS a T321-timecycle to
 reregister. So you have to add to this figure some seconds of full
 TX-power
 consumption e.g. every 40min. (put any cellphone near a walkman for some
 hours, and you may hear...)
 Please note that these things a controlled by BaseStation and dependent of
 current RF-quality (at least for MS-TX power), so you hardly will get
 reproduceable values with a simple test on desktop.



 Is there a RTC-Alarm in GTA02, to schedule the cron-jobs mentioned
 up-topic?

 cheers
 j

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread Wolfgang Spraul

Andy -

class to expose it so it is generic.  (I don't know for sure if it  
will

ship with such a battery since it is decided in .tw according to
availability and so on, but I hope it will.)


Yes, I think we can confirm that every GTA02 will ship with this new  
'smart' battery.
There are more steps to go through internally, related to  
certification, some sort of calibration. Tony, do you know more details?
The cell's capacity will increase slightly to 1250 mAh (before was  
1200 mAh).
I am trying to release the schematics for the small PCB inside the  
smart battery as well, will be posted to the wiki.


Wolfgang

On Feb 15, 2008, at 12:43 AM, Andy Green wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:

On Thursday, Feb 14, 2008, Kyle Bassett writes:
There is talk about pushing startup power control of the internal  
devices
(wifi, bt, gps, mmc, etc.) to user level, as every user may or may  
not want

certain devices available at bootup/all the time (availability vs.
duration).


Indeed, this along with good realtime stats on power usage and  
current
battery level would let people have reasonably accurate predictions  
of

their battery life.  It'd be interesting (to me at least) to turn
on and off the various peripherals and watch my projected battery  
life

go up and down accordingly.


GTA02 is capable to dialogue with a smart battery that will allow  
you

to see the battery actual voltage and current flow (together: actual
power) in uA down /sys in realtime, it uses the linux Power Supply
class to expose it so it is generic.  (I don't know for sure if it  
will

ship with such a battery since it is decided in .tw according to
availability and so on, but I hope it will.)

The battery itself learns its cell performance over load and also  
makes

available its time to full/empty estimate down /sys as well in
seconds.  You can see what data is available here:

http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/bq27000

You can see stuff like this

for i in capacity charge_full current_now present status technology  
temp

time_to_empty_now time_to_full_now type voltage_now ; do echo -n $i
 ; cat /sys/devices/platform/bq27000-battery.0/power_supply/bat/ 
$i ; done


capacity0
charge_full1215585
current_now183375
present1
statusDischarging
technologyLi-ion
temp276
time_to_empty_now0
time_to_full_now3932100
typeBattery
voltage_now2761000

- -Andy
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread Kyle Bassett
Is this smart battery (internal circuitry+cell) custom via OM, or third
party?


On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Andy -

  class to expose it so it is generic.  (I don't know for sure if it
  will
  ship with such a battery since it is decided in .tw according to
  availability and so on, but I hope it will.)

 Yes, I think we can confirm that every GTA02 will ship with this new
 'smart' battery.
 There are more steps to go through internally, related to
 certification, some sort of calibration. Tony, do you know more details?
 The cell's capacity will increase slightly to 1250 mAh (before was
 1200 mAh).
 I am trying to release the schematics for the small PCB inside the
 smart battery as well, will be posted to the wiki.

 Wolfgang

 On Feb 15, 2008, at 12:43 AM, Andy Green wrote:

  -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
  Hash: SHA1
 
  Somebody in the thread at some point said:
  On Thursday, Feb 14, 2008, Kyle Bassett writes:
  There is talk about pushing startup power control of the internal
  devices
  (wifi, bt, gps, mmc, etc.) to user level, as every user may or may
  not want
  certain devices available at bootup/all the time (availability vs.
  duration).
 
  Indeed, this along with good realtime stats on power usage and
  current
  battery level would let people have reasonably accurate predictions
  of
  their battery life.  It'd be interesting (to me at least) to turn
  on and off the various peripherals and watch my projected battery
  life
  go up and down accordingly.
 
  GTA02 is capable to dialogue with a smart battery that will allow
  you
  to see the battery actual voltage and current flow (together: actual
  power) in uA down /sys in realtime, it uses the linux Power Supply
  class to expose it so it is generic.  (I don't know for sure if it
  will
  ship with such a battery since it is decided in .tw according to
  availability and so on, but I hope it will.)
 
  The battery itself learns its cell performance over load and also
  makes
  available its time to full/empty estimate down /sys as well in
  seconds.  You can see what data is available here:
 
  http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/bq27000
 
  You can see stuff like this
 
  for i in capacity charge_full current_now present status technology
  temp
  time_to_empty_now time_to_full_now type voltage_now ; do echo -n $i
   ; cat /sys/devices/platform/bq27000-battery.0/power_supply/bat/
  $i ; done
 
  capacity0
  charge_full1215585
  current_now183375
  present1
  statusDischarging
  technologyLi-ion
  temp276
  time_to_empty_now0
  time_to_full_now3932100
  typeBattery
  voltage_now2761000
 
  - -Andy
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  Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
 
  iD8DBQFHtG+yOjLpvpq7dMoRAq2TAJoCYOC+PD3gj/jRMpOPnBL5MZJkzQCfTJn4
  9ebCrbNjtGtDMBsJuUXZ8HY=
  =ANtG
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread Robin Paulson
On 14/02/2008, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Thanks Kyle for a great summary of the work being discussed on the
  kernel ML. I am simply not able to keep up with all the lists and very
  much appreciate your helping out here.

  Michael

indeed, thanks for the info kyle.

i've been avidly following the dev cycle of the software/hardware
here, and it's good to see some technical info from the kernel ML, 95%
of which is over my head

would it be possible for someone - michael, kyle? - to give an update
on this kind of info on a regular basis? i'm sure there are plenty of
others eager for technical progress, but who are unlikely to venture
on the kernel list?


  Kyle Bassett wrote:
   I have been following the Suspended Mode thread in the kernel ML and
   they have made amazing progress within the last week.  As GTA02A5
   currently stands, a cold suspend mode (just GSM in standby awaiting
   incoming call/sms), could result in 20 days of standby!
  
   For those technical people on this list, they have gotten GTA02A5 in
   suspend using ~2.07mA @ 3.7v (fully charged batt).  If the GTA02 will
   have a 1200mAh battery, that's ~24 days of suspend runtime in a perfect
   world.  The goal is set around 1mA-2mA of suspend current draw, with
   best case scenario suspend time of ~50 days (sure beats 4 hours... :-P
   ).  There are also issues such as internal battery discharge, ~30% over
   90 days for one of the packs that is being considered, which will reduce
   the final suspend runtime available.
  
   Currently, work continues attempting to shave even more power
   consumption from a sleeping Freerunner.  Individual power consumption of
   the different internal devices is still taking place, that way any user
   can approximate their battery lifetime (but each internal device has a
   few different states, making this a tedious task).  In the very near
   future, we should see some numbers coming in about the talk runtime,
   once some GSM power state issues are resolved.
  
   There is talk about pushing startup power control of the internal
   devices (wifi, bt, gps, mmc, etc.) to user level, as every user may or
   may not want certain devices available at bootup/all the time
   (availability vs. duration).

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread Andy Green
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:

 Can GTA01 users upgrade to this battery and would it make sense to do so?

Not without hacking the device and the drivers and only then if you can
find a GPIO that comes out to a resistor or something you can wire up
to.  The third pin on the GTA01 battery is a temperature sense pin and
it goes off to an ADC input on the PMU, which makes complete sense for
what that is.  But it can't be exploited for the HDQ protocol on the
smart battery without some difficult hack.

Basically as a rule hardware is set in stone, it goes double when it is
micro BGAs and so on like this hardware, there's not much anyone can do
about that.

- -Andy
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread joerg
Am Do  14. Februar 2008 schrieb Andy Green:
 Basically as a rule hardware is set in stone, it goes double when it is
 micro BGAs and so on like this hardware, there's not much anyone can do
 about that.
That's the reason why polite PCB-designers are planning for a NC-via at least 
for those BGA-contacts, that you won't get a hold on otherwise. Of course 
this adds about 2 cent to the costs of PCB for each via, and thus never is 
done by any commercial hw-mf (except those who had a major field-change-order 
issue in their history). On the other hand, what's the tools to open the 
case worth for, which surely add to total cost of product as well?

Of course a few vias don't already make a nice protoboard yet, but at least 
*some* users with smd-soldering experience may benefit. As long as they had 
some schematics anyway. All this very suboptimal with regard to an open 
phone. All my Sony-gadgets are more open, when it comes to this. At least 
for those i got pretty nice service-manuals incl. circuit diagrams for free.

cheers
j

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread Andy Green
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:

 Is this smart battery (internal circuitry+cell) custom via OM, or third
 party?

I dunno the answer to this, but the smart battery is the same physical
footprint as the GTA01 one if that helps make a guess.

- -Andy
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=J/At
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread joerg
Am Fr  15. Februar 2008 schrieb Andy Green:
 As I say it matters a bit less because so many signals are unavailable
 anyway, but of course I really understand the point of having them.  To
 offset it a little there are bunch of testpoints which are annotated on
 the board and will be annotated in the wiki, there are things like I2C
 and LVTTL UART on there to leverage somewhat.
So i hope there's a testpoint for each unused valuable (hidden) pin at 
least, like GPIO (if any left, at any chip [Wolfson mixer]), the LineIN/Out 
pins marked unused in Wolfson mixer Wiki(GTA01), videoIn/Out(?), etc...
That's just fine, for nobody really needs access to *buses* (hmm, on a second 
thought - adding some RAM... A real challenge :-). And for circuit diagrams, 
let's wait and see how much time it takes till first third party reverse 
engineered diagrams will be available. 

btw: tapping 0402R is my hobby to calm down ;-)

cheers
j

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread Andy Green
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:

 So i hope there's a testpoint for each unused valuable (hidden) pin at 

It didn't happen I am afraid.  There is some IO to be had at the
testpoints, but mainly they are just that -- test points.  For example
if you didn't have the BT module you can get a second USB 1.1 host and
some GPIO, no WLAN you can have SDIO and some GPIO from gold testpoints
that are relatively easy to access.

In the end it is trying to be a phone rather than an embedded
controller.  Still for quite a few embedded tasks I2C or LVTTL UART --
let's not forget USB OTG 12Mbps host from the mini USB B connector --
will be enough to make a practical solution though.

 btw: tapping 0402R is my hobby to calm down ;-)

LOL

- -Andy
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread joerg
Am Fr  15. Februar 2008 schrieb Andy Green:
 Still for quite a few embedded tasks I2C or LVTTL UART --
 let's not forget USB OTG 12Mbps host from the mini USB B connector --
 will be enough to make a practical solution though.
Good point! If i need additional GPIO, so what. I got I2C, so i just chain up 
some with a dirt cheap chip.
The interfacing of the smart battery in GTA01 shouldn't be a big thing this 
way.
Homebrew I2C-GPIO driver, patching GPIO_Bat DEF in src for GTA02 smartbat 
driver. 

So real issue left for some projects is which power should i use (especially 
for those devices that don't do their own power-down).


And i wonder whether there will be *good* (near circuit diagram) specs for the 
connectors. I.E.: 
*-what kind of OverVoltage-Protection (clamp-diodes etc) / HF-blocking / 
ground potential..., can i expect behind any external connector. 
*-What exactly is the impedance (R, C) of headset out, what are the absolute 
maximum ratings (so i may figure out e.g. whether the headset out makes for a 
high-quality (HiFi) 1,[EMAIL PROTECTED] line out, or should i plan for a 56R 
load 
instead of the standard 10k-50k).
*-USB-host power shortcircuit...? Will it blow my battery or whole NEO up in 
smoke? ;-). 
*-etc.
For questions like these i'm used to refer to a c.diagram. If they are 
answered verbatim somewhere, i'm fine with it.

j

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-14 Thread Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu)

Wolfgang Spraul ??:

Andy -


class to expose it so it is generic.  (I don't know for sure if it will
ship with such a battery since it is decided in .tw according to
availability and so on, but I hope it will.)


Yes, I think we can confirm that every GTA02 will ship with this new 
'smart' battery.
There are more steps to go through internally, related to certification, 
some sort of calibration. Tony, do you know more details?
The cell's capacity will increase slightly to 1250 mAh (before was 1200 
mAh).


The battery cell is 1250mAh for GTA02 coulomb battery cell, and the 
coulomb counter setting for battery will around 1200mAh, but not confirm 
all parameter from hardware side yet.


The battery was smart battery, and they will learn the charging curve 
during each charge. So the mA number on the sticker or on the battery 
cell documentation will not that precise during the daily use.


And we change to new coulomb battery, will need re-do some certification 
test for FCC/CE. They are proceeding now.


Tony Tu



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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-13 Thread Michael Shiloh



Nick Guenther wrote:

On Feb 8, 2008 4:04 AM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello,

I've researched this a little, and this is what I've learned:

1. We are still looking at a number of different batteries, so there is
no final capacity or feature set determined yet.

2. The capacity will most likely be around 1200mA.

If you find any place on the wiki that says something other than 1200mA,
can you please make the correction? You may reference this email.


Oh. That's... really disappointing. The battery life is already
unusable, and the faster processor and wifi will just make this even
worse.



We are well aware of software changes we need to make in order to 
improve battery and have simply not had the time to do this. You can 
expect much better battery life when we implement these changes.


In fact if you look in the archives of the kernel mailing list you will 
see that a tremendous amount of progress has happened over the past few 
days. I think the current SVN code supports a much improved suspend mode 
that my very simple testing suggests should last for well over 12 hours. 
And work continues.


Michael

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-13 Thread Uncle Kridley
Michael Shiloh wrote:
 We are well aware of software changes we need to make in order to
 improve battery and have simply not had the time to do this. You can
 expect much better battery life when we implement these changes.
[...]
 that my very simple testing suggests should last for well over 12 hours.

Twelve hours is great compared to the five the GTA01 gets now, but it's
maybe a third of what I'd consider to be the absolute minimum for a
usable phone.  Can you give us an idea of how many hours of talk and
standby you expect the phone to provide once all of these planned
changes have been made?

I want an OpenMoko because I want to carry a computer in my pocket.  I
want to run cron jobs that fetch content from the web.  I want to use it
as a wifi web browser.  I want to turn it into a gps cycle-computer.
And I want it to be my phone, which means that when I've done all of the
above, it needs enough battery left at midnight to call a tow-truck when
my car breaks down.

My Treo 650 has an 1800 mAh battery, and even when it was new I never
got more than three days off a full charge.  Now that it's a few years
old, I can barely make two days.  If the GTA02 needs charging every day,
after maybe a year the battery will be aging, and won't even last a
whole day.  That's not going to be very practical.  Are you guys sure
that 1200 mAh is going to cut it for what amounts to a portable computer?

-- 
   --
  Dirk Bergstrom   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://otisbean.com/

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-13 Thread Kyle Bassett
I have been following the Suspended Mode thread in the kernel ML and they
have made amazing progress within the last week.  As GTA02A5 currently
stands, a cold suspend mode (just GSM in standby awaiting incoming
call/sms), could result in 20 days of standby!

For those technical people on this list, they have gotten GTA02A5 in suspend
using ~2.07mA @ 3.7v (fully charged batt).  If the GTA02 will have a 1200mAh
battery, that's ~24 days of suspend runtime in a perfect world.  The goal is
set around 1mA-2mA of suspend current draw, with best case scenario suspend
time of ~50 days (sure beats 4 hours... :-P  ).  There are also issues such
as internal battery discharge, ~30% over 90 days for one of the packs that
is being considered, which will reduce the final suspend runtime available.

Currently, work continues attempting to shave even more power consumption
from a sleeping Freerunner.  Individual power consumption of the different
internal devices is still taking place, that way any user can approximate
their battery lifetime (but each internal device has a few different states,
making this a tedious task).  In the very near future, we should see some
numbers coming in about the talk runtime, once some GSM power state issues
are resolved.

There is talk about pushing startup power control of the internal devices
(wifi, bt, gps, mmc, etc.) to user level, as every user may or may not want
certain devices available at bootup/all the time (availability vs.
duration).

It's nice to have some good news, everyone keep up the good work!

-Kyle



On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:



 Nick Guenther wrote:
  On Feb 8, 2008 4:04 AM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hello,
 
  I've researched this a little, and this is what I've learned:
 
  1. We are still looking at a number of different batteries, so there is
  no final capacity or feature set determined yet.
 
  2. The capacity will most likely be around 1200mA.
 
  If you find any place on the wiki that says something other than
 1200mA,
  can you please make the correction? You may reference this email.
 
  Oh. That's... really disappointing. The battery life is already
  unusable, and the faster processor and wifi will just make this even
  worse.


 We are well aware of software changes we need to make in order to
 improve battery and have simply not had the time to do this. You can
 expect much better battery life when we implement these changes.

 In fact if you look in the archives of the kernel mailing list you will
 see that a tremendous amount of progress has happened over the past few
 days. I think the current SVN code supports a much improved suspend mode
 that my very simple testing suggests should last for well over 12 hours.
 And work continues.

 Michael

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-13 Thread Michael Shiloh



Uncle Kridley wrote:

Michael Shiloh wrote:

We are well aware of software changes we need to make in order to
improve battery and have simply not had the time to do this. You can
expect much better battery life when we implement these changes.

[...]

that my very simple testing suggests should last for well over 12 hours.


Twelve hours is great compared to the five the GTA01 gets now, but it's
maybe a third of what I'd consider to be the absolute minimum for a
usable phone.  


I agree. I tried to make it clear that we're not done.


Can you give us an idea of how many hours of talk and

standby you expect the phone to provide once all of these planned
changes have been made?


Not yet.




I want an OpenMoko because I want to carry a computer in my pocket.  I
want to run cron jobs that fetch content from the web.  I want to use it
as a wifi web browser.  I want to turn it into a gps cycle-computer.
And I want it to be my phone, which means that when I've done all of the
above, it needs enough battery left at midnight to call a tow-truck when
my car breaks down.

My Treo 650 has an 1800 mAh battery, and even when it was new I never
got more than three days off a full charge.  Now that it's a few years
old, I can barely make two days.  If the GTA02 needs charging every day,
after maybe a year the battery will be aging, and won't even last a
whole day.  That's not going to be very practical.  Are you guys sure
that 1200 mAh is going to cut it for what amounts to a portable computer?


I don't know what we're sure of in this regard.


In summary:

1. We have made much progress
2. We are aware of more improvements we can make
3. We don't know (yet) what all these improvements will get us

Sincerely,
Michael

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-13 Thread Michael Shiloh
Thanks Kyle for a great summary of the work being discussed on the 
kernel ML. I am simply not able to keep up with all the lists and very 
much appreciate your helping out here.


Michael

Kyle Bassett wrote:
I have been following the Suspended Mode thread in the kernel ML and 
they have made amazing progress within the last week.  As GTA02A5 
currently stands, a cold suspend mode (just GSM in standby awaiting 
incoming call/sms), could result in 20 days of standby!


For those technical people on this list, they have gotten GTA02A5 in 
suspend using ~2.07mA @ 3.7v (fully charged batt).  If the GTA02 will 
have a 1200mAh battery, that's ~24 days of suspend runtime in a perfect 
world.  The goal is set around 1mA-2mA of suspend current draw, with 
best case scenario suspend time of ~50 days (sure beats 4 hours... :-P  
).  There are also issues such as internal battery discharge, ~30% over 
90 days for one of the packs that is being considered, which will reduce 
the final suspend runtime available.


Currently, work continues attempting to shave even more power 
consumption from a sleeping Freerunner.  Individual power consumption of 
the different internal devices is still taking place, that way any user 
can approximate their battery lifetime (but each internal device has a 
few different states, making this a tedious task).  In the very near 
future, we should see some numbers coming in about the talk runtime, 
once some GSM power state issues are resolved.


There is talk about pushing startup power control of the internal 
devices (wifi, bt, gps, mmc, etc.) to user level, as every user may or 
may not want certain devices available at bootup/all the time 
(availability vs. duration).


It's nice to have some good news, everyone keep up the good work!

-Kyle



On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Nick Guenther wrote:
  On Feb 8, 2008 4:04 AM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hello,
 
  I've researched this a little, and this is what I've learned:
 
  1. We are still looking at a number of different batteries, so
there is
  no final capacity or feature set determined yet.
 
  2. The capacity will most likely be around 1200mA.
 
  If you find any place on the wiki that says something other than
1200mA,
  can you please make the correction? You may reference this email.
 
  Oh. That's... really disappointing. The battery life is already
  unusable, and the faster processor and wifi will just make this even
  worse.


We are well aware of software changes we need to make in order to
improve battery and have simply not had the time to do this. You can
expect much better battery life when we implement these changes.

In fact if you look in the archives of the kernel mailing list you will
see that a tremendous amount of progress has happened over the past few
days. I think the current SVN code supports a much improved suspend mode
that my very simple testing suggests should last for well over 12 hours.
And work continues.

Michael

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-10 Thread David Pottage
On Saturday 09 February 2008, Shawn Rutledge wrote:

 At least the 1973-compatible Nokia batteries will probably be
 available for a long time (as I'm hoping the Nokia 770 batteries will
 be), but there is still the problem with charging them (the phone
 cannot do it).  The rule of thumb is that no LiIon battery will last
 longer than 3 years or so.

I think we are probably safe on that. The Nokia BL5C is used in quite a lot of 
different Nokia phones, including a number of very low cost models for 
developing countries. Those phones will get manufactured in huge numbers 
(perhaps 100 million), and will be around for a long time. Due to their huge 
numbers, and the fact that some of the owners won't have the money to upgrade 
for a long time, I doubt spare parts availability will be a problem.

You might consider buying one of these cheap phones, both as a backup to use 
if a software update renders you Neo 1973 temporally unusable, and to charge 
the spare battery. I have a Nokia 1100, as a spare, and I use it's battery 
interchangeably with other devices.

-- 
David Pottage

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-08 Thread Michael Shiloh

Hello,

I've researched this a little, and this is what I've learned:

1. We are still looking at a number of different batteries, so there is 
no final capacity or feature set determined yet.


2. The capacity will most likely be around 1200mA.

If you find any place on the wiki that says something other than 1200mA, 
can you please make the correction? You may reference this email.


Michael

Michael Shiloh wrote:

(Please help by changing the subject when the topic changes)

I'll look into this.

Michael

Denis wrote:
The wiki page http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_GTA02_Hardware 
says 1200mAh lithium battery charges when connected to powered host, 
but the page http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_GTA02_Battery says 
it's a 1700mAh one. So where is the typo?


2008/2/6, Christopher Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Maybe a typo in the GTA02 hardware wiki, here is the link

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_GTA02_Hardware

  Denis [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/05/08
8:04 PM 
The wiki history showes that Feb, 3rd it still was 1700mAh. Can
anybody from OpenMoko confirm whether it is correct?

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-08 Thread Marcus Bauer
On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 01:04 -0800, Michael Shiloh wrote:
 Hello,
 
 I've researched this a little, and this is what I've learned:
 
 1. We are still looking at a number of different batteries, so there is 
 no final capacity or feature set determined yet.
 
 2. The capacity will most likely be around 1200mA.

Hello Michael,

I guess many people would like to have a second battery - is there any
chance that you make them available? Openmoko on the Neo is now good
enough for daily use, yet it is running out of battery quickly.

Maybe one of the distributors would be happy to take a batch of them
into stock?

Can you check on this for us?


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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-08 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
On Friday 08 February 2008 17:29:36 Steven ** wrote:
 Search the archives.  There's some Nokia battery that is apparently a
 drop-in replacement for the Neo1973's battery.

Almost. Unfortunately the Bl-5C has only 850mAh and for some reason the Neo 
doesn't charge it. A DT-14 help for the latter.

:M:
-- 
Dr. Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de

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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-08 Thread Marcus Bauer
On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 10:29 -0600, Steven ** wrote:
 Search the archives.  There's some Nokia battery that is apparently a
 drop-in replacement for the Neo1973's battery.  They discovered this a
 long time ago.

The Nokia batteries are AFAIK not a drop-in replacement. According to
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery the Neo doesn't charge the
Nokia Batteries. Has this changed? If not, it would be great to be able
to buy a Neo battery.




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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

2008-02-08 Thread Nick Guenther
On Feb 8, 2008 4:04 AM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hello,

 I've researched this a little, and this is what I've learned:

 1. We are still looking at a number of different batteries, so there is
 no final capacity or feature set determined yet.

 2. The capacity will most likely be around 1200mA.

 If you find any place on the wiki that says something other than 1200mA,
 can you please make the correction? You may reference this email.

Oh. That's... really disappointing. The battery life is already
unusable, and the faster processor and wifi will just make this even
worse.

-Nick

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