Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-09-03 Thread joerg Reisenweber
Hi!
just as a short newsflash: we got 258 votes-of-interest and even 30 that are 
willing to pay >=700EUR for a Neo900 aka GTA04-NeoN board plus housing and 
other needed parts.
Follow the hype at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142

cheers
jOERG
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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-28 Thread Sebastian Krzyszkowiak
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 1:14 AM, joerg Reisenweber  wrote:
> While rewriting blobs is a long term minor goal of CSSU [1], we won't do a
> complete rewrite of every closed blob for Neo900 fremantle-port. Actually if
> we did, we could use any arbitrary hardware ülatform and just recompile the
> completely liberated fremantle for it. We wouldn't need a GTA04-N900 that's
> close to the original N900 hw-wise. The idea of GTA04-N900 is to reduce the
> hw-diffs to an amount that can get handled in kernel/drivers by patching them.
> You probably know that kernel and kernel driver modules are FOSS in maemo.

Yeah, Neo900 won't be associated with any specific operating system.
SHR, QtMoko or anything else that works now on GTA04 should be very
easy, if not trivial, to run on Neo900. For this community, Neo900 is
just a upgraded GTA04 in different case (well, it might be that Neo900
will cause upgrade of GTA04 itself, so it will be rather something
like "variant of GTA04" rather than "upgrade" to it).

But there's one reason why we need "Fremantle Porting Task Force" -
demand. Maemo community waited for N900 successor for so long, and
with such low demand as we're struggling with those devices, every
single willing buyer helps us a lot. Also, this is not Nokia-owned OS
anymore - community owns it and effort to ditch closed blobs and
switch to free replacements is ongoing, as Joerg pointed out. There
are also some initiatives for rebasing Fremantle on top of current
Debian and to stay as close to upstream as possible.

Those efforts slowly die together with N900. When there are less and
less developers, the goal of "Freemantle" is more and more away.
Neo900 is meant to resurrect this community as soon as possible. While
joining "Freemantle" effort into Neo900 project would mean inevitable
failure (not enough manpower, people being disappointed due to
unstable software etc.), giving Maemo community something pretty much
rock-solid as a good base for future work (even with still with some
closed parts) might be better idea for our long term goals.

It might be that reimplementing some OS part will be easier than
adding some compatibility layer in kernel. In such cases, "Freemantle"
will even benefit directly from "porting task force" work.

And still, if you're not interested in Fremantle, just ignore it.
There are people who are - they will generate some demand, so we'll be
able to get bigger production runs, so everyone will be happier.
Nevertheless, Neo900 will stay true to everything that GTA04
represents right now. It will just get new form factor to attract
different people.

-- 
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos
http://dosowisko.net/

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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-28 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Wed 28 August 2013 22:21:18 Norayr Chilingarian wrote:
[...]
> Also, I believe many apps like GPS apps which use liblocation won't
> work, because liblocation is proprietary, and needs to be rewritten with
> the same interface. 

GolDeliCo won't ship the Neo900 with maemo pre-installed. We got (or will 
have) a fremantle porting task force at maemo community that does the porting, 
provides installable rootfs, and explains how to install and use the closed 
blobs like liblocation. Nokia "donated" maemo to community, and we had the 
permission from Nokia to re-use and even re-distribute the blobs since years 
already.

While rewriting blobs is a long term minor goal of CSSU [1], we won't do a 
complete rewrite of every closed blob for Neo900 fremantle-port. Actually if 
we did, we could use any arbitrary hardware ülatform and just recompile the 
completely liberated fremantle for it. We wouldn't need a GTA04-N900 that's 
close to the original N900 hw-wise. The idea of GTA04-N900 is to reduce the 
hw-diffs to an amount that can get handled in kernel/drivers by patching them. 
You probably know that kernel and kernel driver modules are FOSS in maemo.

cheers
jOERG
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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-28 Thread Norayr Chilingarian
Non-free maemo isn't redistributable.
There's must be free maemo version.
The existing version won't be possible to flash to gta-04 because it is
currently not possible to do that. It's different hardware.
Otherwise it won't be necessary to port SHR to n900, that's obvious.
So, in order to redistribute GTA-04 version of maemo, there must be free
redistributable maemo.

Also, I believe many apps like GPS apps which use liblocation won't
work, because liblocation is proprietary, and needs to be rewritten with
the same interface. Otherwise, full compatibility is just not possible,
without replacing those proprietary parts with free parts.

I personally have no problem using SHR on n900 like device. But you are
the one who considers maemo compatibility to be the key feature. That's
why I am writing this.

>The maemo fremantle porting project is not targeted at creating a fork
or new release of maemo OS, but strictly to keep >compatibility from
N900 to Neo900 so users can ideally restore a backup from their old N900
to their new Neo900 and the device >acts exactly like user got used to.
Also we don't plan to recompile the repositories with all the
applications, and for the much needed >core apps like dialer we even
can't do that since they are closed. However you're free to run any
distro you like on GTA04 and >GTA04-N900 aka Neo900, just the maemo
community fremantle porting task force will not bother about "rebasing
on debian" or >whatever, the goals of that task force are clearly defined.

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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-28 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Wed 28 August 2013 10:33:47 Paul Wise wrote:
> There is some info about how different Maemo (all versions) is from
> Debian in these files:
> 
> http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/Maemo/sources.new
> http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/Maemo/sources.patches
> http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/Maemo/patches/
> 
> These are derived from this data:
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census/Maemo

Maybe related resp helping:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages (NB that's not my POV, usual 
disclaimers apply), and
http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages

The maemo fremantle porting project is not targeted at creating a fork or new 
release of maemo OS, but strictly to keep compatibility from N900 to Neo900 so 
users can ideally restore a backup from their old N900 to their new Neo900 and 
the device acts exactly like user got used to. Also we don't plan to recompile 
the repositories with all the applications, and for the much needed core apps 
like dialer we even can't do that since they are closed.

However you're free to run any distro you like on GTA04 and GTA04-N900 aka 
Neo900, just the maemo community fremantle porting task force will not bother 
about "rebasing on debian" or whatever, the goals of that task force are 
clearly defined.

cheers
/j

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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-28 Thread Paul Wise
On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 10:12 AM, arne anka wrote:

> maemo isn't "great"

If I were using Maemo, I guess the biggest problem for me would be
security support, I wonder if there is any right now?

> imo, the way to go would be to port all of maemo to debian thereby getting

Your wording isn't clear here, but I guess you mean join Debian and
get all the new packages and patches from Maemo added to Debian? If
you want to start doing that, take a look at these pages. I'm sure
that the Debian mobile folks will be happy to help guide you with
this.

http://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers
https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile

> iirc there is/was work going on in that direction.

At one point the Hildon stuff was in Debian but it got removed because
it became clear that it did not have a future upstream since Nokia was
dropping it. Now some things like 0x are in Debian but not much
else. In particular I don't think that Debian has a version of Linux
that can run on the N900 yet, same for GTA02/GTA04. Probably the same
for bootloaders etc.

There is some info about how different Maemo (all versions) is from
Debian in these files:

http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/Maemo/sources.new
http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/Maemo/sources.patches
http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/Maemo/patches/

These are derived from this data:

https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census/Maemo

If there is anyone from the Maemo community interested in being the
contact point for maintaining this info, I get the impression that
Jeremiah is no longer involved in Maemo so it would be great to have a
replacement for him.

https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census
https://wiki.debian.org/DerivativesFrontDesk

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pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-28 Thread arne anka

I would say, maemo fremantle is great.
if we could manage to make it free, i. e. rewrite it's non-free parts,
and make it available on more platforms, like nexus, it'll be great.
having free hardware in n900 case it good too.
but first of all let's get working free, indeed free maemo. not the
proprietary one that could be flashed from nokia images.
but the one which is possible to port to different devices. so may be
someone does not like n900 and want to use it on n9 or nexus. or
whatever phone he has.
I like SHR for that reason - there are at least a couple of platforms
supported.


maemo isn't "great", maemo is a purposefully crippled debian with the  
added benefit to prevent the user from simply using debian armel packages.
imo, the way to go would be to port all of maemo to debian thereby getting  
rid of nokia's imcompatibilities also inside packages (gtk springs to  
mind).

iirc there is/was work going on in that direction.


BTW: PLEASE cut quotes to the least needed amount and do not just hit  
reply!

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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-27 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 26.08.2013 um 14:35 schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak:

> Hello!
> 
> Short introduction, as I was rather inactive in this community
> recently: I'm dos, long time Openmoko supporter, owner of GTA02 and
> (now broken) Nokia N900. Few years ago I was quite an active developer
> of FSO (opimd) and SHR. Few days ago I've created website draft for
> GTA04.
> 
> As we all know, GTA04 project has few non-technical problems. Poor
> demand is one of them, poor availability of parts is the second one.
> Those two problems together are pretty much show stoppers, cause if we
> fix one, the second one becomes harder.
> 
> But Joerg Reisenweber came up with brilliant idea of adapting GTA04
> board into N900 case. Why?
> - second source N900 housings are very cheap and available on eBay in
> big quantities -> problem with very small amount of Openmoko cases
> solved
> - there are still new spare parts floating around on free market
> 
> But using N900 gives us more:
> - GTA04 with physical keyboard!
> - screen that doesn't appear to be off in full sunlight
> - it seems that while some people like Openmoko case (I do), most
> rather think "it's nice idea, but I wouldn't show up anywhere with
> such a brick" :( N900 case seems to be more commonly accepted by
> public ;)
> 
> Wait, there's even more!
> - if done right, we can engage Maemo community and increase the demand a lot!
> 
> There are LOTS of broken N900s in possession of Maemo community
> members due to problems with faulty USB connector and GSM modem. Many
> of them (owners ;)) are waiting for proper N900 successor that never
> came (N9 is not, and Nokia is not interested in platform anymore at
> all).
> 
> This might be great time to merge efforts from Openmoko/OpenPhoenux
> and Maemo communities. Neo900 project can benefit from both of them -
> there will be QtMoko/SHR/Replicant on the one side (it's just modified
> GTA04, so running all of them should be very easy), and there will be
> Maemo, Meego and maybe more porting initiatives on the other side.
> Joerg's idea includes full port of Maemo 5 (Fremantle) to allow N900
> users to have drop-in upgrade - just like now GTA04 is for GTA01/02
> owners. I think that can increase interest a lot!
> 
> For now we named it "Neo900" - making nods to both N900 and Openmoko roots :)
> 
> I'm super excited about this idea, and it seems that I'm not the only one:
> Look at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142
> 
> You can also read logs from #maemo from yesterday and today:
> https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-08-25.log.html
> https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-08-26.log.html
> 
> It seems there is some interest, and that's just on Maemo side :)
> 
> What do you think?

Very good idea. If we can use the same basic design both, the GTA04 and
the Neo900 could have many common components. And adding the
number of chips bought of one type will help to reduce the purchase
price of both. So trying to merg this is to the benefit of both.

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-27 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 26.08.2013 um 16:24 schrieb Tomas Nackaerts:

> Hi all!
> 
> I actually think this is a great idea! I always liked the N900 formfactor. 
> But 
> is it technically possible? I remember somebody mention that the option modem 
> is quite big?

Yes, but it is the flattest one we could get. And from the photos of the N900 
board I have
seen they even need more space for the separate modem chips.


> And if there will be a redesign the fit the gta04 to the n900 
> will it possible to update the specs a bit? faster cpu and stuff like that?

Faster CPU: yes - the idea is to use the 1GHz DM3730 which is 25-30% faster
(at least at peak performance - if clock is reduced to 200MHz it is also slow).

> But to be honest, i will probably not buy this device if it has the same 
> problems the current gta04 has. (power usage and modem enumeration)

Well, we can't say if it will have the same problems - and even if the problems
if the GTA04 are really problems or just lack of a solution.

And, I must warn a little - a Neo900 design may have other problems
we will only see if it has been built and tested by hundredts of users.


Nikolaus
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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread Norayr Chilingarian
I would say, maemo fremantle is great.
if we could manage to make it free, i. e. rewrite it's non-free parts,
and make it available on more platforms, like nexus, it'll be great.
having free hardware in n900 case it good too.
but first of all let's get working free, indeed free maemo. not the
proprietary one that could be flashed from nokia images.
but the one which is possible to port to different devices. so may be
someone does not like n900 and want to use it on n9 or nexus. or
whatever phone he has.
I like SHR for that reason - there are at least a couple of platforms
supported.

08/27/13 12:57 -???, joerg Reisenweber-?  ?:
> On Mon 26 August 2013 14:35:50 Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
> [...]
>> Joerg's idea includes full port of Maemo 5 (Fremantle) to allow N900
>> users to have drop-in upgrade - just like now GTA04 is for GTA01/02
>> owners. I think that can increase interest a lot!
> Indeed I consider maemo fremantle compatibility a key feature of this 
> project, 
> since fremantle is proven on OMAP3 platform, both for power management and 
> general every day usability. And userbase at maemo mostly expects 
> compatibility.
> We (would) need to adapt GTA04 to mach resp resemble N900 enough so that all 
> remaining differences can get handled on kernel/driver level.
> On an encouraging sidenote, we have already at least 2 volunteers for doing 
> that kernel morphing, one of them even a ex-nokian kernel maintainer \o/
>
> There are still some _severe_ issues that need to get evaluated/tackled ASAP:
> *) instabilities/issues reported for GTA04, with power management and modem
> **) USB / musb core in OMAP which is a greedy hog as long as powered.
> *) camera (N900 has 5MP with autofocus)
> *) N900 has 32GB eMMC
> *) interfacing the flex circuit board (aka ribbon cable) connection to  to 
> screen half, that also has ALS, secondary (VGA?) camera, proxy sensor, 3color 
> LED
> *) component sourcing for speakers, antennae, et al
> *) completely different charging (N900 uses bq24150)
> *) AV-connector with auto-detection of headphones, headset, AV (maybe simply 
> replace that in userland by a requester to pick type of cable/connection
> *) audio at large, N900 has a quite different circuitry for whole audio, and 
> fremantle has some nasty PA modules, some of them even closed blobs (XPROT 
> speaker protection, some limiter/compressor/EQ/overtemp-cutout)
>
> *)... I'm afraid there's more to come, that I don't see right now
>
> Anyway, the general mood is best described by "extremely excited" and it 
> seems 
> it's maybe worth following this idea some further, even with the above points 
> pending to get solved.
>
> See http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142
>
> I hope I didn't state anything that Nikolaus will bash me for when tomorrow 
> he 
> reads all the stuff that happened.
>
> The poll I added on that ^^^ thread on tmo however shows that 7/8 of users 
> are 
> expecting us to compete with Samsung for the price range. Well, that been 
> expected. The resulting discussion is maybe helpful nevertheless.
>
>
> cheers
> jOERG
>
>
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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Mon 26 August 2013 14:35:50 Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
[...]
> Joerg's idea includes full port of Maemo 5 (Fremantle) to allow N900
> users to have drop-in upgrade - just like now GTA04 is for GTA01/02
> owners. I think that can increase interest a lot!

Indeed I consider maemo fremantle compatibility a key feature of this project, 
since fremantle is proven on OMAP3 platform, both for power management and 
general every day usability. And userbase at maemo mostly expects 
compatibility.
We (would) need to adapt GTA04 to mach resp resemble N900 enough so that all 
remaining differences can get handled on kernel/driver level.
On an encouraging sidenote, we have already at least 2 volunteers for doing 
that kernel morphing, one of them even a ex-nokian kernel maintainer \o/

There are still some _severe_ issues that need to get evaluated/tackled ASAP:
*) instabilities/issues reported for GTA04, with power management and modem
**) USB / musb core in OMAP which is a greedy hog as long as powered.
*) camera (N900 has 5MP with autofocus)
*) N900 has 32GB eMMC
*) interfacing the flex circuit board (aka ribbon cable) connection to  to 
screen half, that also has ALS, secondary (VGA?) camera, proxy sensor, 3color 
LED
*) component sourcing for speakers, antennae, et al
*) completely different charging (N900 uses bq24150)
*) AV-connector with auto-detection of headphones, headset, AV (maybe simply 
replace that in userland by a requester to pick type of cable/connection
*) audio at large, N900 has a quite different circuitry for whole audio, and 
fremantle has some nasty PA modules, some of them even closed blobs (XPROT 
speaker protection, some limiter/compressor/EQ/overtemp-cutout)

*)... I'm afraid there's more to come, that I don't see right now

Anyway, the general mood is best described by "extremely excited" and it seems 
it's maybe worth following this idea some further, even with the above points 
pending to get solved.

See http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142

I hope I didn't state anything that Nikolaus will bash me for when tomorrow he 
reads all the stuff that happened.

The poll I added on that ^^^ thread on tmo however shows that 7/8 of users are 
expecting us to compete with Samsung for the price range. Well, that been 
expected. The resulting discussion is maybe helpful nevertheless.


cheers
jOERG
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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread arne anka
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 22:25:06 +0200, joerg Reisenweber   
wrote:



On Mon 26 August 2013 21:47:08 arne anka wrote:

the most striking part of jörg's n900 idea seems not to attract any
comments -- he said, he'd know at least one company who would be
interested.


Oh? where did I say this? Been a communication error. Or a complete  
storage
dropout ;-)  Sorry both happens to me sometimes, so I'd really be  
interested

in a pointer or citation.

cheers
jOERG


"know for sure there's a (comparatively) huge community"

but when c&p'ing it i discovered that i had read "company" instead of  
"community". darn ...


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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Mon 26 August 2013 21:47:08 arne anka wrote:
> the most striking part of jörg's n900 idea seems not to attract any
> comments -- he said, he'd know at least one company who would be
> interested.

Oh? where did I say this? Been a communication error. Or a complete storage 
dropout ;-)  Sorry both happens to me sometimes, so I'd really be interested 
in a pointer or citation.

cheers
jOERG
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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread arne anka
the most striking part of jörg's n900 idea seems not to attract any  
comments -- he said, he'd know at least one company who would be  
interested.
being interested does not necessarily translate into will buy, but at  
least it would be worth to contemplate ...


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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread Tomas Nackaerts
Hi all!

I actually think this is a great idea! I always liked the N900 formfactor. But 
is it technically possible? I remember somebody mention that the option modem 
is quite big? And if there will be a redesign the fit the gta04 to the n900 
will it possible to update the specs a bit? faster cpu and stuff like that?

But to be honest, i will probably not buy this device if it has the same 
problems the current gta04 has. (power usage and modem enumeration)
and also i don't want to pay 600+ for a smartphone. But i hope if this idea 
takes of and there is enough interest the price will be much lower. 


greetings,

tomas






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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread Patryk Benderz
[cut]
> What do you think?
Hello Dos,
I think it is  great showcase how open projects can benefit from
synergy.
However I personally am not interested in HW keyboard and I will wait
until my present phone wears off, before I buy next device.

-- 
Patryk "LeadMan" Benderz
Linux Registered User #377521
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