Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team

2009-03-16 Thread The Rasterman
On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 01:04:25 -0400 Jeremy McNaughton
jeremy.mcnaugh...@gmail.com said:

 With Paroli in particular I can't see it being such a big deal to size
 the window so it can be used with Illume.  At least for right now,
 until more time can be dedicated to whatever mysterious way we'll
 eventually use to switch back and forth can be implemented.

actually if they wanted to stay fullscreen - they could. just reauest
fullscreen mode and it will be.. fullscreen - wm will just be in the
background. as long as they provide some way in paroli to:

1. exit paroli (quit)
and/or
2. self-iconify (minimize) (which basically will take you back to previous
app/home).

its that simple. you can have both then. when in paroli - it's fullscreen like
a game - takes over the ui. when flipped out of it to other x apps, wm,
launcher etc. - it just lurks in the bg as a process with a hidden window you
can flip to by:

1. selecting from applist
2. flip forward/back by app flippers
or
3. select paroli icon and if the .desktop file and window have all the right
properties - e will happily just flip to the paroli window instantly without
running it again.

this is all perfectly possible and in fact dead simple to do. it just requires
providing the #1 and/or #2 buttons/menus as above.

(nb - power button is lost when in illume/e - by default its a keybinding for e
for the sys popup with can suspend/power off and even close the current
window or go home as kind of a universal my fullscreen app has just hung and
locked my ui - please rescue me! button. as such if paroli wants to rely on
that feature of a wm (lets say you used some other wm like matchbox etc. - it
may not have this thus #1 and/or #2 above), then it even has to do NOTHING but
open its window AND request fullscreen on start (trivial 1 more function call
if using EFL), and provide the .desktop file so selecting the paroli icon flips
to paroli (and the right properites - maybe 1 or 2 more function calls here).

not telling anyone what to do - just saying that it is possible in this case to
have your cake, and eat it too - with incredibly trivial/little effort. it's a
little surprising that it wasn't done this way from the start just to retain
portability and support for everything else at the same time. :)

-- 
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The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team

2009-03-15 Thread Mirko Lindner
Hej,

I tried to stay out of this thread as the discussion drifted away from 
paroli towards general discussion about OM's behavior, which is not 
controlled by me, but it seems to me that here 2 things are mixed that 
simply are unrelated and I am being judged based on a conversation 
log(!) and deemed unfriendly and what not.

Jeremy McNaughton wrote:
 I've got to agree that some more communication about Paroli would be a
 good thing.

Ok, valid point.

 After all, what was the point of selling the phones so early in the
 development cycle in the first place?  Right on the main page of the
 wiki it says: Openmoko is a project driven by a community of
 passionate and intelligent volunteers. If you have the ability, please
 contribute to our cause. Openmoko's ambitions far exceed the resources
 available.

What does that have to do with paroli?

 
 It can't be both ways.  If Openmoko wants the community to help and/or
 develop for projects like Paroli, they need to be responsive when
 their volunteers ask for more information.

If I get asked about info regarding paroli, its code or what we are 
trying to achieve I am all in. But in this case I was not asked about 
any specifics but Paul asked about the hidden department which 
controls all of OM and I found his question demeaning and out of place, 
let alone his wording.

 
 With Paroli in particular I can't see it being such a big deal to size
 the window so it can be used with Illume.  At least for right now,
 until more time can be dedicated to whatever mysterious way we'll
 eventually use to switch back and forth can be implemented.


Sorry to be a bit rough here, but:Have you looked at the code? Do you 
know what actually is the problem? If so why don't you simply send a 
patch? Or ask for commit rights?

What bugs me here is that I am being pushed around for a) things that 
are not related to paroli and b) based on your assumptions.

 And while I don't know anything about the previous conversations
 between Mirko and Paul, I really hope that I never get dealt with that
 way by anyone with an openmoko.com email account.  Nobody's perfect
 and I don't want to single Mirko out, but the conversation in the
 above IRC logs are less than stellar.  Not a great way to deal with
 volunteers whose effort you're hoping to benefit from, especially when
 those volunteers are also paying customers.

Paul and I have a short but drastic history of communication and I can 
assure you that is not my normal tone. I am not a fan of people going 
around a blaming so if that happens I either don't respond or become 
defensive, I think that is normal behavior.

In regards to the anyone with an openmoko.com email account I believe 
that the underpinning idea, which is we have to always suck up what ever 
we get thrown at us and smile, nod and be happy about it, is simply 
wrong. This is a community project and volunteers whose effort I am 
[you're] hoping to benefit from of course are not met with disrespect 
and rudeness. I spend much time talking and chatting to explain how 
stuff works and why we do it. And so far you are the first person to 
suggest I am rude, from a secondary source.

I am willing to put up with a lot because I know of the companies 
history and all that and I have done so. However there is a point when I 
simply have to say, Ok, suffered enough, now I think demanding fair 
treatment both ways is what is needed.

So to put it very simple, the way a question is asked determines the way 
I answer. If I feel mistreated I will certainly not play happy, because 
I am doing my best to drive this forward and and also spend my free time 
on this project (yes I work much more than my official hours) so I do 
not see why I should not react as anyone else would.

 
 In general however I think Openmoko is starting to do better with
 communication, Paroli being a notable exception.  

Again I think you are going over the top and put negative energy that 
you have towards the company as a whole towards a single project that 
happens to come your way. Sorry to be so blunt but I see this mail as an 
attack on the work I have done so far and this attack is founded on 
false-grounds.

I agree with one point I could communicate more, but then also give me a 
point, there could be more patches and less complainging about 
unimplemented functions.

/mirko

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Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team

2009-03-15 Thread Jeremy McNaughton
Hey,

Mirko, I'm sorry if I came across overly frustrated or harsh.

I'm really excited about Paroli.  I've read the startup.pdf and I
check the website regularly for updates.  I just want to know more.

Maybe there's some notes from a meeting, plans, brainstorm notes or
something that's not on the site?  I don't know, and I realize it's
probably not up to you.  But for me as a novice developer who's trying
to learn, the more I can read the better.

So yeah, one day you might get patches from me.  First I'm just trying
to learn this stuff, and my feedback to the company is that more info
(about Paroli in particular) would be appreciated.

Forgive my lack of patience,

Jeremy

On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 3:00 AM, Mirko Lindner mi...@openmoko.com wrote:
 Hej,

 I tried to stay out of this thread as the discussion drifted away from
 paroli towards general discussion about OM's behavior, which is not
 controlled by me, but it seems to me that here 2 things are mixed that
 simply are unrelated and I am being judged based on a conversation log(!)
 and deemed unfriendly and what not.

 Jeremy McNaughton wrote:

 I've got to agree that some more communication about Paroli would be a
 good thing.

 Ok, valid point.

 After all, what was the point of selling the phones so early in the
 development cycle in the first place?  Right on the main page of the
 wiki it says: Openmoko is a project driven by a community of
 passionate and intelligent volunteers. If you have the ability, please
 contribute to our cause. Openmoko's ambitions far exceed the resources
 available.

 What does that have to do with paroli?


 It can't be both ways.  If Openmoko wants the community to help and/or
 develop for projects like Paroli, they need to be responsive when
 their volunteers ask for more information.

 If I get asked about info regarding paroli, its code or what we are trying
 to achieve I am all in. But in this case I was not asked about any specifics
 but Paul asked about the hidden department which controls all of OM and I
 found his question demeaning and out of place, let alone his wording.


 With Paroli in particular I can't see it being such a big deal to size
 the window so it can be used with Illume.  At least for right now,
 until more time can be dedicated to whatever mysterious way we'll
 eventually use to switch back and forth can be implemented.


 Sorry to be a bit rough here, but:Have you looked at the code? Do you know
 what actually is the problem? If so why don't you simply send a patch? Or
 ask for commit rights?

 What bugs me here is that I am being pushed around for a) things that are
 not related to paroli and b) based on your assumptions.

 And while I don't know anything about the previous conversations
 between Mirko and Paul, I really hope that I never get dealt with that
 way by anyone with an openmoko.com email account.  Nobody's perfect
 and I don't want to single Mirko out, but the conversation in the
 above IRC logs are less than stellar.  Not a great way to deal with
 volunteers whose effort you're hoping to benefit from, especially when
 those volunteers are also paying customers.

 Paul and I have a short but drastic history of communication and I can
 assure you that is not my normal tone. I am not a fan of people going around
 a blaming so if that happens I either don't respond or become defensive, I
 think that is normal behavior.

 In regards to the anyone with an openmoko.com email account I believe that
 the underpinning idea, which is we have to always suck up what ever we get
 thrown at us and smile, nod and be happy about it, is simply wrong. This is
 a community project and volunteers whose effort I am [you're] hoping to
 benefit from of course are not met with disrespect and rudeness. I spend
 much time talking and chatting to explain how stuff works and why we do it.
 And so far you are the first person to suggest I am rude, from a secondary
 source.

 I am willing to put up with a lot because I know of the companies history
 and all that and I have done so. However there is a point when I simply have
 to say, Ok, suffered enough, now I think demanding fair treatment both ways
 is what is needed.

 So to put it very simple, the way a question is asked determines the way I
 answer. If I feel mistreated I will certainly not play happy, because I am
 doing my best to drive this forward and and also spend my free time on this
 project (yes I work much more than my official hours) so I do not see why I
 should not react as anyone else would.


 In general however I think Openmoko is starting to do better with
 communication, Paroli being a notable exception.

 Again I think you are going over the top and put negative energy that you
 have towards the company as a whole towards a single project that happens to
 come your way. Sorry to be so blunt but I see this mail as an attack on the
 work I have done so far and this attack is founded on false-grounds.

 I agree with one point I could 

Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team

2009-03-14 Thread Paul Fertser
Hi,

Jeremy McNaughton jeremy.mcnaugh...@gmail.com writes:
 And while I don't know anything about the previous conversations
 between Mirko and Paul, I really hope that I never get dealt with that
 way by anyone with an openmoko.com email account.

Jeremy, i can assure you that Mirko treated me fairly and i posted the
log to share information, not emotions.

Yes, i didn't exactly like his way of answering questions, but my way
of asking is probably not really appropriate either; i guess that's
ok, not all people are using the same language and compatible exchange
protocols.

-- 
Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software!
mailto:fercer...@gmail.com

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Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team

2009-03-14 Thread Steve 'dillo Okay

On Mar 13, 2009, at 22:04 , Jeremy McNaughton wrote:
[...]


 And while I don't know anything about the previous conversations
 between Mirko and Paul, I really hope that I never get dealt with that
 way by anyone with an openmoko.com email account.  Nobody's perfect
 and I don't want to single Mirko out, but the conversation in the
 above IRC logs are less than stellar.

I would take some of that as possibly a language issue more than  
outright rudeness or lack of social skills,
esp. when working on a project that involves people from many  
different countries for whom this might be a second
or third language. It's easy to miss or not know subtleties of social  
cues or polite forms if you're not a native speaker/writer.

---Steve

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Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team

2009-03-13 Thread Robin Paulson
2009/3/13 Eldon Koyle eko...@gmail.com:
 contributors).  They have goals they are trying to accomplish -- like
 finally getting a usable software stack for a phone.  They also have to
 make money somewhere.

i think you got those the wrong way round

 If by saving the effort of communicating with everyone who thinks it
 should be their business is allowing them to spend more time making a
 usable set of applications, more power to them.  They are still giving
 you the source, and if you don't like something I'm sure patches are quite
 welcome.

true, but they can't have it both ways. if they say, 'we want input
from the community' on something or other, the likelihood of
disagreement/flames/arguments etc. goes up. then they either can
ignore them, which isn't great when they're asking people for help -
people will soon stop helping if they're being ignored at critical
points - or follow up on all the arguments, and continue with the 'we
listen to the community' mantra.

everything has a cost

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Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team

2009-03-13 Thread arne anka
 Openmoko (the company) doesn't have any responsibility to be open to the
 community.

to be open to the community is at the core of their business model --  
and, what's more, it accounts for a huge part of their customer base.

 Look at what happens every time a hardware-related (ie. gta03) post
 occurs on this list: there is a very strong split between people who
 want mutually-exclusive features, followed by a lot of arguing about
 which is better, when it really comes down to a matter of preference
 (the resistive vs. capacitive argument reminds me a lot of the
 stereotypical vim vs. emacs comparison which is guaranteed to start a
 flamewar on any LUG mailing list).


well, how are they (om) supposed to know, what their customers want?

and you certainly cannot stop people from arguing about specific features  
-- even users of totally closed hardware do.
question is: how much has the discussion in the community to influence  
actual decisions inside openmoko.

so far, i didn't see anyone being adamant that his/her demands have to be  
accepted by om.


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Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team

2009-03-13 Thread Eldon Koyle
On  Mar 13 21:30+1300, Robin Paulson wrote:
snip
 true, but they can't have it both ways. if they say, 'we want input
 from the community' on something or other, the likelihood of
 disagreement/flames/arguments etc. goes up. then they either can
snip

They don't ask for input from the community on everything, though.  I
was merely trying to point out that there shouldn't be any expectation
of them telling 'the community' what they are going to do before they do
anything.  Obviously they should still communicate with any significant
contributors about anything they are doing that will affect said
contributors -- but there is no reason to try to communicate it to the
whole community; and it would be ridiculous to expect all of these
communications to be public.

-- 
Eldon Koyle

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Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team

2009-03-13 Thread Jeremy McNaughton
I've got to agree that some more communication about Paroli would be a
good thing.

Arne's got it exactly right by saying to be 'open to the community'
is at the core of their business model -- and, what's more, it
accounts for a huge part of their customer base.

After all, what was the point of selling the phones so early in the
development cycle in the first place?  Right on the main page of the
wiki it says: Openmoko is a project driven by a community of
passionate and intelligent volunteers. If you have the ability, please
contribute to our cause. Openmoko's ambitions far exceed the resources
available.

It can't be both ways.  If Openmoko wants the community to help and/or
develop for projects like Paroli, they need to be responsive when
their volunteers ask for more information.

With Paroli in particular I can't see it being such a big deal to size
the window so it can be used with Illume.  At least for right now,
until more time can be dedicated to whatever mysterious way we'll
eventually use to switch back and forth can be implemented.

And while I don't know anything about the previous conversations
between Mirko and Paul, I really hope that I never get dealt with that
way by anyone with an openmoko.com email account.  Nobody's perfect
and I don't want to single Mirko out, but the conversation in the
above IRC logs are less than stellar.  Not a great way to deal with
volunteers whose effort you're hoping to benefit from, especially when
those volunteers are also paying customers.

In general however I think Openmoko is starting to do better with
communication, Paroli being a notable exception.  I'm still very
excited about the direction the platform is taking.  FSO is a very
good idea, and one day Openmoko phones will kick ass (as phones! :)


Jeremy McNaughton

On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Eldon Koyle eko...@gmail.com wrote:
 On  Mar 13 21:30+1300, Robin Paulson wrote:
 snip
 true, but they can't have it both ways. if they say, 'we want input
 from the community' on something or other, the likelihood of
 disagreement/flames/arguments etc. goes up. then they either can
 snip

 They don't ask for input from the community on everything, though.  I
 was merely trying to point out that there shouldn't be any expectation
 of them telling 'the community' what they are going to do before they do
 anything.  Obviously they should still communicate with any significant
 contributors about anything they are doing that will affect said
 contributors -- but there is no reason to try to communicate it to the
 whole community; and it would be ridiculous to expect all of these
 communications to be public.

 --
 Eldon Koyle

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Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team

2009-03-12 Thread Eldon Koyle
rant
Openmoko (the company) doesn't have any responsibility to be open to the
community.  I personally do appreciate when they are, but I can see why
they might want to be a little more closed.  I think a lot of time is
spent arguing with community members over things that aren't extremely
important in the long-term.

When it comes right down to it, there is no reason for them to tell us
everything that is going on.  Let them make their design decisions so
that they can make better use of their time in accomplishing their
goals, whatever they may be.  Chances are you won't agree with some of
their design goals.  They can't please everyone, so they shouldn't try
to.  The beauty of open source is that you can change it however you
want.  If you disagree strongly enough, you make a fork or write
something yourself.

Companies involved in open source projects aren't involved solely for
the sake of open source (although they are usually very good
contributors).  They have goals they are trying to accomplish -- like
finally getting a usable software stack for a phone.  They also have to
make money somewhere.

If by saving the effort of communicating with everyone who thinks it
should be their business is allowing them to spend more time making a
usable set of applications, more power to them.  They are still giving
you the source, and if you don't like something I'm sure patches are quite
welcome.

Look at what happens every time a hardware-related (ie. gta03) post
occurs on this list: there is a very strong split between people who
want mutually-exclusive features, followed by a lot of arguing about
which is better, when it really comes down to a matter of preference
(the resistive vs. capacitive argument reminds me a lot of the
stereotypical vim vs. emacs comparison which is guaranteed to start a
flamewar on any LUG mailing list).

/rant

-- 
Eldon Koyle

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Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team

2009-03-12 Thread George Brooke
On Thursday 12 March 2009 20:51:47 Eldon Koyle wrote:
 rant
 Openmoko (the company) doesn't have any responsibility to be open to the
 community.  I personally do appreciate when they are, but I can see why
 they might want to be a little more closed.  I think a lot of time is
 spent arguing with community members over things that aren't extremely
 important in the long-term.

 When it comes right down to it, there is no reason for them to tell us
 everything that is going on.  Let them make their design decisions so
 that they can make better use of their time in accomplishing their
 goals, whatever they may be.  Chances are you won't agree with some of
 their design goals.  They can't please everyone, so they shouldn't try
 to.  The beauty of open source is that you can change it however you
 want.  If you disagree strongly enough, you make a fork or write
 something yourself.

 Companies involved in open source projects aren't involved solely for
 the sake of open source (although they are usually very good
 contributors).  They have goals they are trying to accomplish -- like
 finally getting a usable software stack for a phone.  They also have to
 make money somewhere.

 If by saving the effort of communicating with everyone who thinks it
 should be their business is allowing them to spend more time making a
 usable set of applications, more power to them.  They are still giving
 you the source, and if you don't like something I'm sure patches are quite
 welcome.

 Look at what happens every time a hardware-related (ie. gta03) post
 occurs on this list: there is a very strong split between people who
 want mutually-exclusive features, followed by a lot of arguing about
 which is better, when it really comes down to a matter of preference
 (the resistive vs. capacitive argument reminds me a lot of the
 stereotypical vim vs. emacs comparison which is guaranteed to start a
 flamewar on any LUG mailing list).

 /rant
Thank you very much someone needed to say something along those lines.

solar.george


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Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team

2009-03-12 Thread Paul Fertser
George Brooke solar.geo...@googlemail.com writes:
 On Thursday 12 March 2009 20:51:47 Eldon Koyle wrote:
 rant
...
 Thank you very much someone needed to say something along those lines.

Would you mind to share your comments on TRIsoft letter as well?

-- 
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mailto:fercer...@gmail.com

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