Re: Which Distro?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 10:05:59PM +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:46:15 -0700 Ken Restivo [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: i repeat... why ONE? why does everyone think we HAVE to support just ONE? why? 1) reliability, bugfixes, fit and finish 2) critical mass of applications 3) usability 4) it's a smartphone, I want to be able to actually use it, not just load distros endlessly on it no - i'm talking toolkit. you are equating distro WITH toolkit. there is no need to do that. OM will ship with 1 image and will be building and supporting an official OM image. other people may build and support their own - this is distros here i am talking about. hey have the freedom toand more power to them! does your desktop linux distro ONLY run gtk apps? you can't use kde or qt apps? or SDL based games? or java apps? the desktop distro must also just choose ONE widget set and then all apps must use it? NO! this is wrong. please stop thinking this way. it's a limiting way of thinking. we have available to I agree with you about the widget sets. I think it's foolish to try to lock a distro to only one widget set, and thus ignore all the great apps that would otherwise be available using another widget set. That said, I want only one distro, which uses all the widget sets. My Debian system is loaded with apps that use every widget set ever known to mankind (Tk, Gtk, Qt, KDE, FLTK, whatever). that is what OM is working on - remember this is openembedded. you can install any package from an OE package feed you like! its not fixed. developers their FAVORITE languages and FAVORITE toolkits - they dont NEED to go learn anything! that is the whole point! use what you already know! Unless you really don't aspire to make anything beyond phones for systems techies, you will have to pick just one distro that the phone will ship with, won't you? You surely cannot switch distros from time to time, since your existing user and developer base will expect to see some continuity. switching distro is up to you. OM will ship a distro by default we work on one. the content and flavor of that distro is aiming at the above - support as much as possible so we dont alienate people. if we said only gtk apps in c then all the python, ruby, java, c#, qt, c++ etc. devs run away, or HAVE to change. Again, I'm very glad that the phone lets me program in Python, or C, or whatever. It was a great thrill to sit here in my terminal and be working with an interactive Python interpreter on my telephone. But, again, as a user, I want one distro that has *everyone* pulling together to make it great and solid-- using whatever programming language, widget set, etc, that pleases them. Diversity in the service of unity. The two always exist simultaneously in tension, and the great art is deciding where to apply the diversity and where to apply the unity. I'm suggesting diversity in toolkits and languages, in the service of unity of finished product. ALL the distros are based on openembedded. they are all compatible (same package manager, pakcaging systems, same base core os packages etc). they just all give you a different starting point. #hank you for the detailed and informative response! I didn't understand any of the above (which was probably very obvious), and you made it very clear to me now. It seems to be a sensible approach. May I paraphrase some of this and turn it into a Wiki page? (Where exactly to put it would be another interesting question). think of it as ubuntu vs xubuntu vs kubuntu etc. its the same os. just different starting point. same if we said qt/c++ only, or phython only, or java only. why should you be boxed into a single box and a distro is only allowed to have 1 box? why? just because every other phone maker works this way does not mean we have to. So perhaps I can clarify: what distro do you intend to ship with to end users? If it is ASU, and I must wait, thats just fine with me, but your response above seems to contradict that. ASU is what openmoko is working on. I'd appreciate your helping us out here since I'm probably not the only one confused ... what am I missing? Then ASU is the one I will work on too. I'm glad to be running it now. It seems excellent. All I need is to get the matchbox keyboard to replace the quite awful and useless keyboard that comes with ASU, and I'm all set to really enjoy this thing. the default keyboard is just as usable as the matchbox one. there is a full qwerty layout file available for it. keyboard layout is just a config file. unlike the matchbox keyboard it is also usable with a finger not just a stylus. Great! I didn't know that. Is this documented anywhere on the Wiki or should I start some page, i.e. Customizing_ASU_keyboard ?
Re: Which Distro?
On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:42:58 -0700 Ken Restivo [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: #hank you for the detailed and informative response! I didn't understand any #of the above (which was probably very obvious), and you made it very clear #to me now. It seems to be a sensible approach. May I paraphrase some of this #and turn it into a Wiki page? (Where exactly to put it would be another #interesting question). sure. no problem. rememebr - all are openembedded based. there WILL be small issues between them - more to do with competing packages. eg on one u have one package that provides a panel with applets on another that same functionality is done by another piece of software and thus a different package. so if you want to integrate into desktop environment parts in detail (eg replace today screen or wallpaper stuff etc.) it's the same as desktop distros - you may have issues, but for regular applications it's all an easy walk in the park. right now for phone and such access its a mess of qtopi's qpe in ASU vs gsmd in 2007.2 vs FSO's dbus based access daemons. as such ASU is for now and likely will merge with FSO'd back ends. i know i hope to do a different UI than ASU currently has, myself - a major improvement over it, at least he core desktop, and i am hoping to merge with FSO in that way. ie make full use of FSO's back-ends and integrate and provide a sexy front-end. :) but again - all of the distros use X11 (except the pure qtopia one) so all toolkits work and apps should just work. ASU even support the matchbox kbd activation protocol as well as a newer one i brewed up (thats much more reliable as it uses a window property for keyboard requests). ASU has a fully-fledged desktop WM in it (modified via modules/plugins to have different behavior on such a small screen device), so there isn't much it can't do (given a small amount of work). think of it as ubuntu vs xubuntu vs kubuntu etc. its the same os. just different starting point. same if we said qt/c++ only, or phython only, or java only. why should you be boxed into a single box and a distro is only allowed to have 1 box? why? just because every other phone maker works this way does not mean we have to. So perhaps I can clarify: what distro do you intend to ship with to end users? If it is ASU, and I must wait, thats just fine with me, but your response above seems to contradict that. ASU is what openmoko is working on. I'd appreciate your helping us out here since I'm probably not the only one confused ... what am I missing? Then ASU is the one I will work on too. I'm glad to be running it now. It seems excellent. All I need is to get the matchbox keyboard to replace the quite awful and useless keyboard that comes with ASU, and I'm all set to really enjoy this thing. the default keyboard is just as usable as the matchbox one. there is a full qwerty layout file available for it. keyboard layout is just a config file. unlike the matchbox keyboard it is also usable with a finger not just a stylus. Great! I didn't know that. Is this documented anywhere on the Wiki or should I start some page, i.e. Customizing_ASU_keyboard ? nup. not documented... yet. i am actually in the middle of a keyboard rewrite for ASU. the code is much much much cleaner now and well abstracted, and i have a keyboard layout selector button/icon in addition to swipe up. i'm also including the full qwerty keyboard by default for now - it may get split into a separate package later, but as such the full qwerty keyboard works just like matchbox's qwerty stylus keyboard, but uses the exact same kbd engine as the predictive one. it's just a layout file. i am going from the principle that it's easier for people to write for themselves little keyboard layout files than write whole virtual keyboard programs. i['d eventually hope that people can write a small plethora of them covering different languages and uses (eg one with all the umlauts or accents for french or for german or swedish, russian etc. etc.), and thus people can select variants of keyboard layouts to use that work best for them or their usage. no need for whole new keyboards. the keyboard code though is now abstracted into container - that can accept any vkbd written specially (eg the matchbox multi-tap and qwerty ones) or the internal built-in one. the built-in will be much more resource friendly as you save on excess resources for a new process and new set of init code etc. but it is still limited. no handwriting recognition etc. maybe over time i can abstract gesture recognition into scribbling etc. subsystems... dunno. either way - you get to choose what you want. right now it always creates the internal keyboard - i haven't added code to disable that (and select something else to run), but its not static project, it's under development like a lot of other things. but again - it is a virtual
Re: Which Distro?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 06:17:07AM +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:28:52 -0700 Vijay Vaidyanathan [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Hi Carsten ... On Jul 16, 2008, at 6:14 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: all are included. learn the one u like most - that solves the problem u want to solve best! stop thinking that we will only ver ship and support 1 widget set and then u have to learn that. you will be waiting a very long time. with FSO above you STILL will need to make a choice. back-end system functions are stuffed behind a dbus api. front end (widget set, toolkits whatever) is STILL your problem. Thank you ... okay, I think I see what you are saying, but regrettably, that confuses me even further, so let me rephrase mine (and probably Dirk's) question. Assuming that your aspirations for the phone are to create something that is more than just a tinkertoy for a few systems nerds like me, and that you are hoping to eventually (but in the near future) attract widespread interest from end users fed up with current options, surely you will have to support just a single supported UI and development platform? Even developers of apps will want to code to one UI, one toolkit etc to ensure their apps continue to work with new factory released phones. i repeat... why ONE? why does everyone think we HAVE to support just ONE? why? 1) reliability, bugfixes, fit and finish 2) critical mass of applications 3) usability 4) it's a smartphone, I want to be able to actually use it, not just load distros endlessly on it does your desktop linux distro ONLY run gtk apps? you can't use kde or qt apps? or SDL based games? or java apps? the desktop distro must also just choose ONE widget set and then all apps must use it? NO! this is wrong. please stop thinking this way. it's a limiting way of thinking. we have available to I agree with you about the widget sets. I think it's foolish to try to lock a distro to only one widget set, and thus ignore all the great apps that would otherwise be available using another widget set. That said, I want only one distro, which uses all the widget sets. My Debian system is loaded with apps that use every widget set ever known to mankind (Tk, Gtk, Qt, KDE, FLTK, whatever). developers their FAVORITE languages and FAVORITE toolkits - they dont NEED to go learn anything! that is the whole point! use what you already know! Unless you really don't aspire to make anything beyond phones for systems techies, you will have to pick just one distro that the phone will ship with, won't you? You surely cannot switch distros from time to time, since your existing user and developer base will expect to see some continuity. switching distro is up to you. OM will ship a distro by default we work on one. the content and flavor of that distro is aiming at the above - support as much as possible so we dont alienate people. if we said only gtk apps in c then all the python, ruby, java, c#, qt, c++ etc. devs run away, or HAVE to change. Again, I'm very glad that the phone lets me program in Python, or C, or whatever. It was a great thrill to sit here in my terminal and be working with an interactive Python interpreter on my telephone. But, again, as a user, I want one distro that has *everyone* pulling together to make it great and solid-- using whatever programming language, widget set, etc, that pleases them. Diversity in the service of unity. The two always exist simultaneously in tension, and the great art is deciding where to apply the diversity and where to apply the unity. I'm suggesting diversity in toolkits and languages, in the service of unity of finished product. same if we said qt/c++ only, or phython only, or java only. why should you be boxed into a single box and a distro is only allowed to have 1 box? why? just because every other phone maker works this way does not mean we have to. So perhaps I can clarify: what distro do you intend to ship with to end users? If it is ASU, and I must wait, thats just fine with me, but your response above seems to contradict that. ASU is what openmoko is working on. I'd appreciate your helping us out here since I'm probably not the only one confused ... what am I missing? Then ASU is the one I will work on too. I'm glad to be running it now. It seems excellent. All I need is to get the matchbox keyboard to replace the quite awful and useless keyboard that comes with ASU, and I'm all set to really enjoy this thing. -ken ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Which Distro?
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:28:52 -0700 Vijay Vaidyanathan [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Assuming that your aspirations for the phone are to create something that is more than just a tinkertoy for a few systems nerds like me, and that you are hoping to eventually (but in the near future) attract widespread interest from end users fed up with current options, surely you will have to support just a single supported UI and development platform? Even developers of apps will want to code to one UI, one toolkit etc to ensure their apps continue to work with new factory released phones. i repeat... why ONE? why does everyone think we HAVE to support just ONE? why? does your desktop linux distro ONLY run gtk apps? you can't use kde or qt apps? or SDL based games? or java apps? the desktop distro must also just choose ONE widget set and then all apps must use it? NO! this is wrong. please stop thinking this way. it's a limiting way of thinking. we have available to developers their FAVORITE languages and FAVORITE toolkits - they dont NEED to go learn anything! that is the whole point! use what you already know! I agree, but I also think that the toolkit should support each others, not only from the look point of view, but also in some things like file selectors, desktop integration... Just Qt, actually, tries to do it. -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Which Distro?
i repeat... why ONE? why does everyone think we HAVE to support just ONE? why? Because developers want to have a stable distro to target against, and that means knowing whats in the distro already so that packages can be delivered reliably that do not have massive dependencies. does your desktop linux distro ONLY run gtk apps? you can't use kde or qt apps? This isn't clearly understood, I think. One thing we really have to understand, clearly (us 3rd-party developers), is that we can build packages that will install - and run - for each of these distros. Say I have an app that I want to sell to 100 OpenMoko users. Can I just make an .ipk that will install on all of those machines, if some of them are running FSO, some ASU, some 2007.2? This has the potential - whether perceived or real or not - to be a support nightmare for 3rd-party developers, unless they understand that its possible to target all 3 distro's and support them easily enough. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Which Distro?
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:46:15 -0700 Ken Restivo [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: i repeat... why ONE? why does everyone think we HAVE to support just ONE? why? 1) reliability, bugfixes, fit and finish 2) critical mass of applications 3) usability 4) it's a smartphone, I want to be able to actually use it, not just load distros endlessly on it no - i'm talking toolkit. you are equating distro WITH toolkit. there is no need to do that. OM will ship with 1 image and will be building and supporting an official OM image. other people may build and support their own - this is distros here i am talking about. hey have the freedom toand more power to them! does your desktop linux distro ONLY run gtk apps? you can't use kde or qt apps? or SDL based games? or java apps? the desktop distro must also just choose ONE widget set and then all apps must use it? NO! this is wrong. please stop thinking this way. it's a limiting way of thinking. we have available to I agree with you about the widget sets. I think it's foolish to try to lock a distro to only one widget set, and thus ignore all the great apps that would otherwise be available using another widget set. That said, I want only one distro, which uses all the widget sets. My Debian system is loaded with apps that use every widget set ever known to mankind (Tk, Gtk, Qt, KDE, FLTK, whatever). that is what OM is working on - remember this is openembedded. you can install any package from an OE package feed you like! its not fixed. developers their FAVORITE languages and FAVORITE toolkits - they dont NEED to go learn anything! that is the whole point! use what you already know! Unless you really don't aspire to make anything beyond phones for systems techies, you will have to pick just one distro that the phone will ship with, won't you? You surely cannot switch distros from time to time, since your existing user and developer base will expect to see some continuity. switching distro is up to you. OM will ship a distro by default we work on one. the content and flavor of that distro is aiming at the above - support as much as possible so we dont alienate people. if we said only gtk apps in c then all the python, ruby, java, c#, qt, c++ etc. devs run away, or HAVE to change. Again, I'm very glad that the phone lets me program in Python, or C, or whatever. It was a great thrill to sit here in my terminal and be working with an interactive Python interpreter on my telephone. But, again, as a user, I want one distro that has *everyone* pulling together to make it great and solid-- using whatever programming language, widget set, etc, that pleases them. Diversity in the service of unity. The two always exist simultaneously in tension, and the great art is deciding where to apply the diversity and where to apply the unity. I'm suggesting diversity in toolkits and languages, in the service of unity of finished product. ALL the distros are based on openembedded. they are all compatible (same package manager, pakcaging systems, same base core os packages etc). they just all give you a different starting point. think of it as ubuntu vs xubuntu vs kubuntu etc. its the same os. just different starting point. same if we said qt/c++ only, or phython only, or java only. why should you be boxed into a single box and a distro is only allowed to have 1 box? why? just because every other phone maker works this way does not mean we have to. So perhaps I can clarify: what distro do you intend to ship with to end users? If it is ASU, and I must wait, thats just fine with me, but your response above seems to contradict that. ASU is what openmoko is working on. I'd appreciate your helping us out here since I'm probably not the only one confused ... what am I missing? Then ASU is the one I will work on too. I'm glad to be running it now. It seems excellent. All I need is to get the matchbox keyboard to replace the quite awful and useless keyboard that comes with ASU, and I'm all set to really enjoy this thing. the default keyboard is just as usable as the matchbox one. there is a full qwerty layout file available for it. keyboard layout is just a config file. unlike the matchbox keyboard it is also usable with a finger not just a stylus. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Which Distro?
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:55:55 +0200 Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: i repeat... why ONE? why does everyone think we HAVE to support just ONE? why? Because developers want to have a stable distro to target against, and that means knowing whats in the distro already so that packages can be delivered reliably that do not have massive dependencies. i was talking toolkits (as there seems to have been an aligning of distro == toolkit). does your desktop linux distro ONLY run gtk apps? you can't use kde or qt apps? This isn't clearly understood, I think. One thing we really have to understand, clearly (us 3rd-party developers), is that we can build packages that will install - and run - for each of these distros. Say I have an app that I want to sell to 100 OpenMoko users. Can I just make an .ipk that will install on all of those machines, if some of them are running FSO, some ASU, some 2007.2? This has the potential - whether perceived or real or not - to be a support nightmare for 3rd-party developers, unless they understand that its possible to target all 3 distro's and support them easily enough. yes you can. it's called dependencies. if you need something that isnt on the system by default - it is sucked in as a dependency. :) see my other mail. they are all based on the same OS (openembedded). -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Which Distro?
yes you can. it's called dependencies. if you need something that isnt on the system by default - it is sucked in as a dependency. :) see my other mail. they are all based on the same OS (openembedded). This just has to be made really clear to future 3rd party developers, is all. Its not difficult, as you mention, but it has to be obvious - not everyone understands that the basic distro is the same underneath FSO/ASU/2007.2 .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Which Distro?
Am Donnerstag 17 Juli 2008 14:05:59 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: the default keyboard is just as usable as the matchbox one. there is a full qwerty layout file available for it. Where is it available? If there are arrow keys on it I have everything I need. Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Which Distro?
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:49:28 +0200 (CEST) Michael Münch [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Am Donnerstag 17 Juli 2008 14:05:59 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: the default keyboard is just as usable as the matchbox one. there is a full qwerty layout file available for it. Where is it available? If there are arrow keys on it I have everything I need. aaah the full qwerty one doesn't have arrow keys... but he layout file is just a text config file. svn checkout http://svn.projects.openmoko.org/svnroot/illume keyboards/Full-QWERTY.kbd is hwta u want just copy that on top of Default.kbd (or make it a symlink) on the system (/usr/lib/enlightenment/modules/illume/... in the keyboards dir). or even better just dump it there then u can flip from numeric, default and full qwerty just by sliding up. you can add some arrow keys easily to the file - the .kbd files are just simple text. they define keys in a virtual layout area and what keys they produce. mind u - i'm working on the code right now fixing a bunch of stuff up.. so thing may shuffle around a bit in future and change. the idea was to make the keyboard layout a config file - not compiled into they keyboard so you dont have to keep changing virtual keyboards for a simply change in layout or key sets. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Which Distro?
I don't understand. Is this for the default OM2007.2 image? I don't have that directory. Is this for ASU? -Steven On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:06 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:49:28 +0200 (CEST) Michael Münch [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Am Donnerstag 17 Juli 2008 14:05:59 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: the default keyboard is just as usable as the matchbox one. there is a full qwerty layout file available for it. Where is it available? If there are arrow keys on it I have everything I need. aaah the full qwerty one doesn't have arrow keys... but he layout file is just a text config file. svn checkout http://svn.projects.openmoko.org/svnroot/illume keyboards/Full-QWERTY.kbd is hwta u want just copy that on top of Default.kbd (or make it a symlink) on the system (/usr/lib/enlightenment/modules/illume/... in the keyboards dir). or even better just dump it there then u can flip from numeric, default and full qwerty just by sliding up. you can add some arrow keys easily to the file - the .kbd files are just simple text. they define keys in a virtual layout area and what keys they produce. mind u - i'm working on the code right now fixing a bunch of stuff up.. so thing may shuffle around a bit in future and change. the idea was to make the keyboard layout a config file - not compiled into they keyboard so you dont have to keep changing virtual keyboards for a simply change in layout or key sets. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Which Distro?
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:36:08 -0500 Steven ** montgoss [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: asu I don't understand. Is this for the default OM2007.2 image? I don't have that directory. Is this for ASU? -Steven On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:06 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:49:28 +0200 (CEST) Michael Münch [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Am Donnerstag 17 Juli 2008 14:05:59 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: the default keyboard is just as usable as the matchbox one. there is a full qwerty layout file available for it. Where is it available? If there are arrow keys on it I have everything I need. aaah the full qwerty one doesn't have arrow keys... but he layout file is just a text config file. svn checkout http://svn.projects.openmoko.org/svnroot/illume keyboards/Full-QWERTY.kbd is hwta u want just copy that on top of Default.kbd (or make it a symlink) on the system (/usr/lib/enlightenment/modules/illume/... in the keyboards dir). or even better just dump it there then u can flip from numeric, default and full qwerty just by sliding up. you can add some arrow keys easily to the file - the .kbd files are just simple text. they define keys in a virtual layout area and what keys they produce. mind u - i'm working on the code right now fixing a bunch of stuff up.. so thing may shuffle around a bit in future and change. the idea was to make the keyboard layout a config file - not compiled into they keyboard so you dont have to keep changing virtual keyboards for a simply change in layout or key sets. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Which Distro?
Hi Vijay On 16/07/2008, Vijay Vaidyanathan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm trying to make a decision on whether to drop in a new distribution to replace the 2007.2 that came preinstalled on my FR. Is there an official distribution that is blessed and supported by OpenMoko - The Company and is most future-proof. Yes, this is the ASU that Openmoko is funding development of However, it is not ready yet. | I get the feeling that the answer is not really More like not really ready yet Openmoko are also keen to see community based efforts e.g. SHR and that users are sort of expected to pick whatever one they feel like hacking or think might eventually win out. If that is so, I have two follow up questions: 1. Why has OpenMoko (The Company) chosen not to support one definitive distribution as its official one? I'd like to understand the logic behind it. What are end-users (i.e. those who will surely have no desire to flash a new distro) expected to be eventually using? They have. Originally 2007.2 was the supported / official one - i think they paid Openhand to make this for them.Then they recognised the enormity of the task around making this a complete working distro (also underlying probs with stability of gsmd) and realised they needed to take advantage of the Trolltech work Now it is ASU be patient... 2. Which distro are you currently using, and why? None, i don't have a FR yet JW ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Which Distro?
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:14:49 -0700 Dirk Bergstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Vijay Vaidyanathan wrote: I'm trying to make a decision on whether to drop in a new distribution to replace the 2007.2 that came preinstalled on my FR. Me too. Is there an official distribution that is blessed and supported by OpenMoko - The Company and is most future-proof. AFAIK, the answer is Not yet, but many people are working very hard to get to a better answer. 1. Why has OpenMoko (The Company) chosen not to support one definitive distribution as its official one? I'd like to understand the logic behind it. What are end-users (i.e. those who will surely have no desire to flash a new distro) expected to be eventually using? There has been a lot of (sometimes bitter) discussion about this. 2. Which distro are you currently using? I'm using whatever came on the phone. I did 'opkg update opkg upgrade' the day after I got the phone. I've made a few changes based on the wiki, or stuff I read in emails. The one that made the biggest difference was installing the matchbox keyboard, as built by Arne. I don't really plan on doing a whole lot more for the next couple weeks. and why? Several reasons: *) I expect that something better will be along shortly. I think having real hardware in people's hands constitutes a critical mass, and we'll start seeing a clear(er) direction. *) I'm completely swamped with work right now, and then I'm going to be traveling for ten days (including going to OSCON). I might have some time to play with the phone while I'm away, but not much. *) I'm hoping that the FSO framework will make some good progress. That seems (to me) like the right way to go. I can wrap my head around a dbus based world, and more importantly, I can code to it in python. *) I'm waiting for some of the dust to settle in the GTK / Enlightenment / Qt fracas. I only want to learn one UI toolkit. all are included. learn the one u like most - that solves the problem u want to solve best! stop thinking that we will only ver ship and support 1 widget set and then u have to learn that. you will be waiting a very long time. with FSO above you STILL will need to make a choice. back-end system functions are stuffed behind a dbus api. front end (widget set, toolkits whatever) is STILL your problem. *) I'm a high-level guy, and embedded stuff is way out of my comfort zone, so there's not much I can *do* right now anyways. The major stuff I want to do is dependent on things like cron/scheduling and a working browser (with adjustable font sizes, bookmarks, and the ability to read local files). -- Dirk ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Which Distro?
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:28:52 -0700 Vijay Vaidyanathan [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Hi Carsten ... On Jul 16, 2008, at 6:14 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: all are included. learn the one u like most - that solves the problem u want to solve best! stop thinking that we will only ver ship and support 1 widget set and then u have to learn that. you will be waiting a very long time. with FSO above you STILL will need to make a choice. back-end system functions are stuffed behind a dbus api. front end (widget set, toolkits whatever) is STILL your problem. Thank you ... okay, I think I see what you are saying, but regrettably, that confuses me even further, so let me rephrase mine (and probably Dirk's) question. Assuming that your aspirations for the phone are to create something that is more than just a tinkertoy for a few systems nerds like me, and that you are hoping to eventually (but in the near future) attract widespread interest from end users fed up with current options, surely you will have to support just a single supported UI and development platform? Even developers of apps will want to code to one UI, one toolkit etc to ensure their apps continue to work with new factory released phones. i repeat... why ONE? why does everyone think we HAVE to support just ONE? why? does your desktop linux distro ONLY run gtk apps? you can't use kde or qt apps? or SDL based games? or java apps? the desktop distro must also just choose ONE widget set and then all apps must use it? NO! this is wrong. please stop thinking this way. it's a limiting way of thinking. we have available to developers their FAVORITE languages and FAVORITE toolkits - they dont NEED to go learn anything! that is the whole point! use what you already know! Unless you really don't aspire to make anything beyond phones for systems techies, you will have to pick just one distro that the phone will ship with, won't you? You surely cannot switch distros from time to time, since your existing user and developer base will expect to see some continuity. switching distro is up to you. OM will ship a distro by default we work on one. the content and flavor of that distro is aiming at the above - support as much as possible so we dont alienate people. if we said only gtk apps in c then all the python, ruby, java, c#, qt, c++ etc. devs run away, or HAVE to change. same if we said qt/c++ only, or phython only, or java only. why should you be boxed into a single box and a distro is only allowed to have 1 box? why? just because every other phone maker works this way does not mean we have to. So perhaps I can clarify: what distro do you intend to ship with to end users? If it is ASU, and I must wait, thats just fine with me, but your response above seems to contradict that. ASU is what openmoko is working on. I'd appreciate your helping us out here since I'm probably not the only one confused ... what am I missing? - VV ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
