Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
Seriously, you know I'm a fan of your software (wrote you a few e-mail IIRC) but lately, in every thread I read, you are scaring away potential contributors and you never really answer the basic questions: 1) why don't you give people feedback on their patches? 2) why don't you use a mailinglist/SVN/bugtracker? if you did this, you wouldn't have to worry about a fork: 3) what is bad about a fork? I have no troubles whatsoever if you say: It's my project and I don't want to give anybody else even the slightest influence it's your right to do that but ATM your words and actions are contradictory: either say a) that you want to do tangogps solo (or with a select few that you chose) and tell people to fuck off with their stupid attempts at patches, or say b) that they are welcome to try and help out, and set up some infrastructure or at least give them feedback either way, there will be no need for anyone anymore to complain to you Beaviour like this (previous e-mails) is making me consider to opkg remove tangogps and install a fork as soon as it comes out and no, this does not mean that forking is bad, this means that forking gives people a choice people will chose the best one (like I did when we couldn't load gpx tracks in the official tangogps version, but could in a patched version - http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/devel/2009-April/005321.html -) I forwarded you that message and got no response, for which I personally do not blame you btw It was only a forward and took me 2 seconds But if I had written a patch, and got no response, I would seriously consider not writing a patch again in the future And yes, I'm not a programmer, but I have tried to do what I can; help people on IRC in the early days, file bug reports, do some early testing for a bunch of programmes, try to give feedback to the creators, add things to the wiki, I even consider some of my posts on the ML us...) In short: please answer those three questions -1) 2) 3)- (or don't, that is an answer on it's own) and communicate a) or b) (or c if you have a different opinion) just make it sure that everyone knows what they can expect because at this moment people have made efforts they wouldn't have done if they had known were they stood (e.g. not getting any feedback to a patch) I personally hope the project continues to evolve and improve, because I find it a big addition to the available software on the openmoko. Kind regards, yorick On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Marcus Bauer marcus.ba...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:19:25 -0400 Stephen Pape srp...@gmail.com wrote: Okay. I'm not sure what you're getting at, or why you're completely changing the subject to make a personal attack on me over an argument involving software development practices. So when you use Google it is okay and when I use Google it is a personal attack? Hey, you are such a cutie :-) You should try to sue Google for diffamation - you could get rich quick! :D And I will join you because Linus Torvalds and Openmoko has a lot more Google hits than me and that guy has never done any work on Openmoko at all. I'll right tomorrow write him an email about what's wrong with his completely fair scheduler. I think there are situations where it is not fair enough. And I'll be really upset if he disregards my email just because I have never contributed to the kernel (almost at least). Maybe you should look inwards regarding your complains about developer ego. I have scheduled 4 hours for this task next weekend. You think that's enough? Good luck. Thank you. And thank you for your example that the best way for avoiding questions about forking is not to make any open source software at all. ...gosh, what a cutie Stephen is... :D HAVE FUN. Last mail, day over. Thanks guys. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
you are definitely off topic. this list is neither to insult others at your pleasure nor to discuss issues with your project or ego. those entirely tangogps related mails are filling up my account and have nothing to do with openmoko. please, stop abusing other projects infrastructure for your personal needs. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
On martedì 13 aprile 2010 11:43:19, arne anka wrote: you are definitely off topic. this list is neither to insult others at your pleasure nor to discuss issues with your project or ego. those entirely tangogps related mails are filling up my account and have nothing to do with openmoko. please, stop abusing other projects infrastructure for your personal needs. full quote,definitely. regards ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 11:43 +0200, arne anka wrote: you are definitely off topic. this list is neither to insult others at your pleasure nor to discuss issues with your project or ego. those entirely tangogps related mails are filling up my account and have nothing to do with openmoko. please, stop abusing other projects infrastructure for your personal needs. No, you're at least one thread too early. This discussion has been (partly) about setting up that kind of infrastructure for tangogps. It was originally a program for Openmoko phones and its business has always been discussed here (afaik). In fact, only relatively recently has there been much use outside the freerunner community. I would agree that it needs its own infrastructure or if it's forked that fork should- but right not this thread is appropriate here. And Yorick, I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
Hi, as I recently struggled with the same issues I'd like to comment on some of the suggestions On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 1:19 AM, Joshua Judson Rosen roz...@geekspace.comwrote: ... Most importantly: How should I keep up with work that you're doing upstream between releases? Maintaining the patches that I use is vital to me, and it's harder to do that if I have no idea where you're going upstream--if I have no idea what's going to change out from under me with the next release. I can only second that - I ported my geocaching enhancements from version to version, but am becoming more and more reluctant to do so with every new release. Any public repository would be helpful in distributing and maintaining these features, even if they wouldn't be included immediately in any official release. As I said, I *do* really *like* tangoGPS--I owe you a big thanks for giving me a good base application on which to build! I could not agree more - and yet I'd really appreciate it if the full potential of community driven enhancements would also be available. In the current state, my features collect virtual dust on my HD and will probably never ever see a release, with chances decreasing as I loose interest in developing them further with all the burdens of porting and adapting. I can fully understand Marcus' focus on quality, and TangoGPS is a great result of that approach - but still I hope that someday a reasonable public access is possible with his help instead of forking. Stefan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
2010/4/12 Joshua Judson Rosen roz...@geekspace.com: So, how *should* I collaborate? What mailing-list should I use? When I fix an upstream bug, in what BTS should I publish the patch? Where can we talk on IRC about current developments in tangoGPS, if anywhere? I agree. After my second translation patch (fixing a few typos and adding a few more translations) was not included, found out only by waiting a few months for the next TangoGPS code drop, I dropped contributing until there is a proper version control system where one can see if changes are committed or not, and a mailing list. It's now been a year or two since that. There is unofficial, non-endorsed IRC channel nowadays. I wouldn't mind if there was an unofficial, non-endorsed version control system and mailing list as well. -Timo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:47:55 +0300 Timo Jyrinki timo.jyri...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't mind if there was an unofficial, non-endorsed version control system and mailing list as well. Essentially it is the constant threads about forks that have been started and fuelled over and over again by Risto that keep me having always a few aces in my sleeve and restricting access to people who I have confidence that they keep the project over their ego. As long as nobody speaks up and tells them to shut up, I'll certainly keep having aces in my sleeve :-) Nevertheless, this totally doesn't prevent anybody to participate in the development. In any case up to today nobody here came to me and said: hey, how can I help out with the project? and was refused. It is important to show that these are a few -albeit very vocal- people who first want to serve their ego and then the users of the project. The fork shouters are known as poisonous people and they can befall any project. There is a Google talk about the subject from the SVN developers. Marcus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
Hi Stefan before it gets lost in all the other discussions: I'd still be happy to integrate this. Remarks: * it must be usable for people that have not signed for the 30$ premium account * everything must work from the user interface, command line is not an option * no python dependency - you can use either libsoup or libcurl Send me your last working tarball and I'll have a look and make suggestions or give you a hand. Marcus On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 09:46:46 +0200 Stefan Fröbe frob...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi, as I recently struggled with the same issues I'd like to comment on some of the suggestions On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 1:19 AM, Joshua Judson Rosen roz...@geekspace.comwrote: ... Most importantly: How should I keep up with work that you're doing upstream between releases? Maintaining the patches that I use is vital to me, and it's harder to do that if I have no idea where you're going upstream--if I have no idea what's going to change out from under me with the next release. I can only second that - I ported my geocaching enhancements from version to version, but am becoming more and more reluctant to do so with every new release. Any public repository would be helpful in distributing and maintaining these features, even if they wouldn't be included immediately in any official release. As I said, I *do* really *like* tangoGPS--I owe you a big thanks for giving me a good base application on which to build! I could not agree more - and yet I'd really appreciate it if the full potential of community driven enhancements would also be available. In the current state, my features collect virtual dust on my HD and will probably never ever see a release, with chances decreasing as I loose interest in developing them further with all the burdens of porting and adapting. I can fully understand Marcus' focus on quality, and TangoGPS is a great result of that approach - but still I hope that someday a reasonable public access is possible with his help instead of forking. Stefan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
Hi Marcus, I guess with those prerequisites I won't make any geocaching submission soon - while all the features are usable as long as you have obtained a GPX file with all the data, the conversion to an sqlite3 db is done on the CLI with (one call to) bash/python scripts. Looking at gpxview [1], for example, I do not want to re-implement all that again - and as that program now also compiles cleanly without any Maemo dependancies on my desktop and also has maps support, there might no longer be a point to patching TangoGPS. GPXView just is more specific and may therefore well be the better tool for geocaching. But thanks for the offer, I'll check my history for any other patches I got queued and come back to you, Stefan [1] https://vcs.maemo.org/viewvc/trunk/?root=gpxview before it gets lost in all the other discussions: I'd still be happy to integrate this. Remarks: * it must be usable for people that have not signed for the 30$ premium account * everything must work from the user interface, command line is not an option * no python dependency - you can use either libsoup or libcurl Send me your last working tarball and I'll have a look and make suggestions or give you a hand. Marcus On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 09:46:46 +0200 Stefan Fröbe frob...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi, as I recently struggled with the same issues I'd like to comment on some of the suggestions On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 1:19 AM, Joshua Judson Rosen roz...@geekspace.comwrote: ... Most importantly: How should I keep up with work that you're doing upstream between releases? Maintaining the patches that I use is vital to me, and it's harder to do that if I have no idea where you're going upstream--if I have no idea what's going to change out from under me with the next release. I can only second that - I ported my geocaching enhancements from version to version, but am becoming more and more reluctant to do so with every new release. Any public repository would be helpful in distributing and maintaining these features, even if they wouldn't be included immediately in any official release. As I said, I *do* really *like* tangoGPS--I owe you a big thanks for giving me a good base application on which to build! I could not agree more - and yet I'd really appreciate it if the full potential of community driven enhancements would also be available. In the current state, my features collect virtual dust on my HD and will probably never ever see a release, with chances decreasing as I loose interest in developing them further with all the burdens of porting and adapting. I can fully understand Marcus' focus on quality, and TangoGPS is a great result of that approach - but still I hope that someday a reasonable public access is possible with his help instead of forking. Stefan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
2010/4/12 Marcus Bauer marcus.ba...@gmail.com: Essentially it is the constant threads about forks that have been started and fuelled over and over again by Risto that keep me having always a few aces in my sleeve and restricting access to people who I have confidence that they keep the project over their ego. I don't know what egos you are discussing (I haven't followed previous TangoGPS discussions that closely). You can restrict any access even if you allow read-only following of the development version source control. It's essential for any open source development project with more than one person interested in developing it. The fear of forks is probably simply because currently there is no way to really have a development project where others than one person can eventually affect the future of the project. E-mail patches without return channel or follow-up possibility does not really work. Anyway, I personally wouldn't want a fork, if it can be avoided. The developer community, if there is more than one person, just completely needs developer tools like version control and mailing lists, which are currently not available for this project, and have been in absence even despite months of silence on the front (so no shutting up of anyone needed). I was thinking about a system where latest source code is imported and patches can be tracked, which are applied, which are pending review, which are rejected etc. -Timo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:32:59 +0200 Stefan Fröbe frob...@googlemail.com wrote: I guess with those prerequisites I won't make any geocaching submission soon - while all the features are usable as long as you have obtained a GPX file with all the data, the conversion to an sqlite3 db is done on the CLI with (one call to) bash/python scripts. Well, .LOC should be possible and for reading GPX files there is already code in tangoGPS. Running a loop over the GPX and inserting it in a db is probably in a few dozen lines of code possible. I could have a look into it. Up to you. Marcus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
Aces in your sleeve? You mean you're keeping the development process intentionally closed to discourage forkers? What? There's no reason you can't have a public SVN with read only access to everyone except your chosen few. Google code or sourceforge would work fine. Why does all this discussion go on in the openmoko mailing list anyway? Why don't you have your own project forums/bug tracking/mailing list/whatever? On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Marcus Bauer marcus.ba...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:47:55 +0300 Timo Jyrinki timo.jyri...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't mind if there was an unofficial, non-endorsed version control system and mailing list as well. Essentially it is the constant threads about forks that have been started and fuelled over and over again by Risto that keep me having always a few aces in my sleeve and restricting access to people who I have confidence that they keep the project over their ego. As long as nobody speaks up and tells them to shut up, I'll certainly keep having aces in my sleeve :-) Nevertheless, this totally doesn't prevent anybody to participate in the development. In any case up to today nobody here came to me and said: hey, how can I help out with the project? and was refused. It is important to show that these are a few -albeit very vocal- people who first want to serve their ego and then the users of the project. The fork shouters are known as poisonous people and they can befall any project. There is a Google talk about the subject from the SVN developers. Marcus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:02:05 -0400 Stephen Pape srp...@gmail.com wrote: Aces in your sleeve? You mean you're keeping the development process intentionally closed to discourage forkers? What? I happily explain it again to you: forks are potentially damaging to any project. Here and actually only here on openmoko there have been some people actually massively aggressing me and threatening me on any occasion with a fork. So yes, you got that right :) I do not always have time to work on tangoGPS and still can do a constant flow of new features. You are a funny man - big scandale that not all my brain activity is monitorable :) I know that RMS would like to enclose all software developers in a gulag with constant thought monitoring - yeah! Any software thought must be freed at once :) Just to mention it: the linux kernel had been developed for the first years purely based on tarballs and patches without any public distributed VCS and collaboration has worked without problems. Simply because in 1992 pretty much nobody had a 24/7 permanent online internet access. It is not as if 80% of the code changes in a week. And it is not as if there would be legions of willing developers. Actually any open source project that I know is short of good developers and much more software doesn't even get developed because people lack skill, focus, energy and long term commitment. Last not least I am replying here because the thread was opened here and because many people have bought Freerunners to run tangoGPS on them. A last word: the vast majority of the members of the Openmoko community are here for the opportunities that open hardware and open software offer. Hwoever a small fraction has a misunderstanding about free software. I have seriously received bizarre emails of people telling me what I have to do because I am a free software developer and as they don't know how to write software I have to do it for them. Best regards, Marcus - creator of successful free software :-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
I do not always have time to work on tangoGPS and still can do a constant flow of new features. You are a funny man - big scandale that not all my brain activity is monitorable :) I know that RMS would like to enclose all software developers in a gulag with constant thought monitoring - yeah! Any software thought must be freed at once :) No one is asking you to dump every thought you have for public viewing. I don't think a publicly viewable SVN server, so people have some sense of what's going on, takes it to your extreme scenario. They would, however, like to know if their patch was accepted, if there was a problem with it, or if someone's working on a similar feature at the same time. Just to mention it: the linux kernel had been developed for the first years purely based on tarballs and patches without any public distributed VCS and collaboration has worked without problems. Simply because in 1992 pretty much nobody had a 24/7 permanent online internet access. Sure, that was fine way back then. Times have changed, and people do have 24/7 permanent online internet access. You'll notice the kernel developers shifted away from that development approach. A last word: the vast majority of the members of the Openmoko community are here for the opportunities that open hardware and open software offer. Hwoever a small fraction has a misunderstanding about free software. I have seriously received bizarre emails of people telling me what I have to do because I am a free software developer and as they don't know how to write software I have to do it for them. This has nothing to do with people telling you what to do because they can't write software. I'm not saying you have to give up control and let people hijack the direction you want to go in. I'm saying when someone takes the time and energy required to write a patch, they should know if it's going to be accepted or rejected without having to wait for the next release. They should get a chance to clean it up if there's a problem. There should be discussion so someone can ask if they should even bother doing the work and get feedback. Your current approach discourages anyone from contributing back to you, and yet you discourage anyone from creating a fork. Have you seen the people trying to help? Someone mentioned feeling like they're trying to hit a moving target, while blindfolded, just to help out. Forking is not a bad thing. In fact, sometimes forks end up being more successful than the original project. Xorg from XFree86 ? How about gcc? Apache, maybe? I'd suggest you read this if you have a fear of forking http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Licensing_and_Law/forking.html (WHY LINUX WON'T FORK: And why being able to fork is still A Good Thing) I tried to find something explaining how forking hurts open source software, but I couldn't find any useful results with Google. If someone feels they can do a better job, I'd encourage them to try forking. -Stephen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
Hi Stephen, thanks for your feedback - especially as you are a programmer as you once stated on the openmoko mailing list [1]. On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:36:38 -0400 Stephen Pape srp...@gmail.com wrote: but I couldn't find any useful results with Google. Dang! I have exactly the same problem when trying to find 'useful results with Google' when searching for your contributions to Openmoko: stephen pape openmoko - 18 results (2 from this discussion) http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=%22stephen+pape%22+openmokostart=10 Well, have a nice evening and dream well :-) Marcus [1] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/014875.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
Okay. I'm not sure what you're getting at, or why you're completely changing the subject to make a personal attack on me over an argument involving software development practices. I haven't been very active with openmoko, so I guess that makes anything I say invalid? And you're the one complaining about developers with egos? You still haven't been able to produce any useful argument about why forking is bad for open source, and how keeping the development process under your own strict control helps open source. Best regards, Marcus - creator of successful free software :-) Maybe you should look inwards regarding your complains about developer ego. I suspect this is why you don't want anyone else forking your code. Good luck. -Stephen On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Marcus Bauer marcus.ba...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Stephen, thanks for your feedback - especially as you are a programmer as you once stated on the openmoko mailing list [1]. On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:36:38 -0400 Stephen Pape srp...@gmail.com wrote: but I couldn't find any useful results with Google. Dang! I have exactly the same problem when trying to find 'useful results with Google' when searching for your contributions to Openmoko: stephen pape openmoko - 18 results (2 from this discussion) http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=%22stephen+pape%22+openmokostart=10 Well, have a nice evening and dream well :-) Marcus [1] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/014875.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:19:25 -0400 Stephen Pape srp...@gmail.com wrote: Okay. I'm not sure what you're getting at, or why you're completely changing the subject to make a personal attack on me over an argument involving software development practices. So when you use Google it is okay and when I use Google it is a personal attack? Hey, you are such a cutie :-) You should try to sue Google for diffamation - you could get rich quick! :D And I will join you because Linus Torvalds and Openmoko has a lot more Google hits than me and that guy has never done any work on Openmoko at all. I'll right tomorrow write him an email about what's wrong with his completely fair scheduler. I think there are situations where it is not fair enough. And I'll be really upset if he disregards my email just because I have never contributed to the kernel (almost at least). Maybe you should look inwards regarding your complains about developer ego. I have scheduled 4 hours for this task next weekend. You think that's enough? Good luck. Thank you. And thank you for your example that the best way for avoiding questions about forking is not to make any open source software at all. ...gosh, what a cutie Stephen is... :D HAVE FUN. Last mail, day over. Thanks guys. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tangoGPS community development, patches (was: tangoGPS magnify patch)
Now it's just getting silly. So when you use Google it is okay and when I use Google it is a personal attack? Hey, you are such a cutie :-) You're just twisting words and sidestepping arguments. You used Google to specifically try and prove that I don't know what I'm talking about. You're turning a discussion on development methodology into name calling. (Cutie? Really?) I used Google looking for an argument against forking, trying to figure out what you're talking about. You keep saying it hurts open software. As far as I can tell, the open software community seems to think the ability to fork at any time is a major benefit. You can get around projects that have limitations or refuse to move forward. If your fork fails, it's no big deal, but there's always a chance that it'll become the next great thing. Of course you don't want to discuss it, it's easier to be petty and make it personal. You should try to sue Google for diffamation - you could get rich quick! :D And I will join you because Linus Torvalds and Openmoko has a lot more Google hits than me and that guy has never done any work on Openmoko at all. Who said anything about suing anyone? When did I ever indicate that I care who has more Google hits? I couldn't care less. This isn't a competition for fame, stop making it out to be one. I'll right tomorrow write him an email about what's wrong with his completely fair scheduler. I think there are situations where it is not fair enough. And I'll be really upset if he disregards my email just because I have never contributed to the kernel (almost at least). I'm not challenging your code itself, or telling you that you don't know what you're doing. It's not comparable to your example. Thank you. And thank you for your example that the best way for avoiding questions about forking is not to make any open source software at all. When did I make an example that you should make closed source software to avoid questions about forking? Obviously you're going to continue being unreasonable, and now you're down to name calling and blatantly making things up, so I won't bother with this line of discussion anymore. I feel bad for all of the developers that want to help. I wouldn't want to have to work with you. -Stephen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
