Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 13.02.2021 um 22:42 schrieb David Boddie :
> 
> On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:28:01 +0100 Dr. Michael Lauer wrote:
> 
>> When I was younger, I could understand the ?fixation? on getting things into
>> mainline ? now, with more years on my back, I believe things would have
>> turned out differently if we were to follow the path of most commercial
>> developers ? which is, freezing the kernel at one point of time to allow
>> the rest of the folks to move forward without a moving target.
>> 
>> Later on, perhaps, submit stuff upstream, jump to another mainline kernel
>> (if necessary), rinse and repeat.
> 
> I agree. The focus on mainlining everything is above and beyond what the
> license requires.

Indeed the wish for upstreaming is not triggered by license but by practical 
needs.

One factor is that the more code is not part of mainline the more resources
are needed to maintain these non-mainline parts and e.g. take care of memory
leaks, security flaws etc. If they are mainline, the whole community takes
care of this and this saves resources of the project.

> 
> It's great if someone can check out the latest kernel and build it for a
> device, but some patches are never going to get upstream. Also, if your users
> need additional stuff to get a working device, having a buildable mainline
> kernel is of limited use.
> 
> Upstreaming everything is also an overhead that most projects can't afford
> unless you want to tie your features to the release schedules of your
> dependencies. One option is to get your upstreams on-board with your plans,
> but that's also a drain on resources. You also have to give up some control,
> which can be a difficult thing to accept.

The other problem of not following mainline is that it makes a project much 
faster
obsolete than it needs to be. Most users want to be able to install the latest
and greatest on their hardware, even if they do not need it... But they decide
for or against projects on that basis.

___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Mickey,

> Am 13.02.2021 um 20:28 schrieb Dr. Michael Lauer :
> 
>> But app developers (like those developing QtMoko) did expect 100% which we
>> even have not achieved many years after the active development of QtMoko 
>> ended.
> 
> Not just app developers, also middleware. In fact, the whole userland is 
> depending on a 100%
> functioning kernel – otherwise it’s just no fun anymore.
> 
> When I was younger, I could understand the „fixation“ on getting things into 
> mainline – now, 
> with more years on my back, I believe things would have turned out 
> differently if we were
> to follow the path of most commercial developers – which is, freezing the 
> kernel at one point
> of time to allow the rest of the folks to move forward without a moving 
> target.

IMHO the solution is to do both. Try to get things upstream (so that we don't 
have to
maintain them any more if there are upstream modifications to include files or 
function
names etc) *and* try to work on a freezed kernel release.

Fortunately, this has become much easier easier than in v3.x times. Now there 
are longterm
stable releases and it is not that difficult to pull in upstream patches and 
combine them
with non-upstream stuff to make a really good and stable kernel while still 
participating
on security fixes and other backports that are done by the kernel community.

LetuxOS currently defines v5.4 as the current "stable" basis [1] which is not a 
moving target.
It works well on most hardware and isn't missing much. Even the old 
replicant-4.2 boots and
can be used for almost everything by using a slightly modified kernel variant.

v5.10 is the next long term kernel. Unfortunately it has some regressions and 
replicant still
fails boot to a user-interface (which is very difficult to debug). But it will 
come one day.

But generally there is no excuse not to do middleware development :)

> 
> Later on, perhaps, submit stuff upstream, jump to another mainline kernel (if 
> necessary), rinse
> and repeat.

The problem we see with ignoring mainline movements is that there is a too big 
gap between
such long-term kernels like v4.19 and v5.10. This makes it really difficult to 
find out what
the regressions are and how to cure them. This means sticking with only one 
major kernel
release (let's say v4.19) works only for commercial developers who are able and 
want to offer
new hardware let's say every 1-2 years and then abandon all the old stuff.

Unfortunately community hardware like GTA04 or Librem 5 or PinePhone need to 
stay much
longer alive so that nobody would be happy if we stick too long with old 
kernels only...

So IMHO the strategy is to run multiple kernel variants. Fortunately, this is 
not as much
additional work as it looks like. This is generally manageable.

The bigger problem is to understand some subtle behaviour of hardware and 
kernel when it
comes to power management. And it needs permanent evaluation if it is broken by 
some changes.

This has become too much work for volunteers... So power management of the 
GTA04 is nowadays
not better (if not worse) than with the old good 3.12 kernel. But a recent 
kernel is much
faster and more secure and adds new functions and even enables new user-space 
features.

Difficult choice if we aim at optimal power management *and* optimal 
functionality+security :)

BR,
Nikolaus

[1]: https://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-kernel/
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[David Boddie]

On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:28:01 +0100 Dr. Michael Lauer wrote:

> When I was younger, I could understand the ?fixation? on getting things into
> mainline ? now, with more years on my back, I believe things would have
> turned out differently if we were to follow the path of most commercial
> developers ? which is, freezing the kernel at one point of time to allow
> the rest of the folks to move forward without a moving target.
> 
> Later on, perhaps, submit stuff upstream, jump to another mainline kernel
> (if necessary), rinse and repeat.

I agree. The focus on mainlining everything is above and beyond what the
license requires.

It's great if someone can check out the latest kernel and build it for a
device, but some patches are never going to get upstream. Also, if your users
need additional stuff to get a working device, having a buildable mainline
kernel is of limited use.

Upstreaming everything is also an overhead that most projects can't afford
unless you want to tie your features to the release schedules of your
dependencies. One option is to get your upstreams on-board with your plans,
but that's also a drain on resources. You also have to give up some control,
which can be a difficult thing to accept.

David


___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Joseph Armbruster]

Jonas,

I'm soo disappointed.  I was dying to get my hands on hardware to start
doing development.  I'm a software/hardware guy and figured it'd be a great
stack to work with.  In the interim, i'm at a point where my daughter is
asking for a phone.  My plan is to hack-up one of the DIY phone projects
and have her use one of those.  That way, she'll have a little more respect
for the technology.

Anyhoo, i'm on the edge of my seat, patiently waiting for the Librem! -)

Joseph Armbruster


On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 2:55 PM Jonas Smedegaard  wrote:

> Quoting Joseph Armbruster (2021-02-13 20:37:17)
> > You're lucky!
> >
> > I ordered my librem 5 in NOV2018.  I have yet to receive any
> > hardware...
>
> Sorry to hear that.
>
> I work for Purism, and was given a phone to help test it (but the last
> draft revision codenamed "Dogwood", not the final "Evergreen" that you
> will get).
>
> I am aware there is still a backlog, but don't know more details: I work
> on the higher end of the software stack, integrating packages with
> Debian and ensuring compliance with both Debian and FSF definitions of
> "Free".  Also, if I _did_ know more details then most likely that would
> be a secret I was not permitted to share here, for commercial reasons.
>
> I dearly hope you will get your phone soon - and that it lives up to
> your expectations.
>
>
>  - Jonas
>
> --
>  * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
>  * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
>
>  [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Joseph Armbruster (2021-02-13 20:37:17)
> You're lucky!
> 
> I ordered my librem 5 in NOV2018.  I have yet to receive any 
> hardware...

Sorry to hear that.

I work for Purism, and was given a phone to help test it (but the last 
draft revision codenamed "Dogwood", not the final "Evergreen" that you 
will get).

I am aware there is still a backlog, but don't know more details: I work 
on the higher end of the software stack, integrating packages with 
Debian and ensuring compliance with both Debian and FSF definitions of 
"Free".  Also, if I _did_ know more details then most likely that would 
be a secret I was not permitted to share here, for commercial reasons.

I dearly hope you will get your phone soon - and that it lives up to 
your expectations.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

signature.asc
Description: signature
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Joseph Armbruster]

You're lucky!

I ordered my librem 5 in NOV2018.  I have yet to receive any hardware...

Joseph Armbruster

On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 4:45 AM michael spreng 
wrote:

> Hi
>
> Some time ago there was a discussion if any librem5 have shipped, so I
> thought I would write a bit about mine:
>
> In December I received my librem5 phone and now had some time to try it
> out. It seems to work reasonably well, can make phone calls and
> messages. Though there is no support yet for the camera. It has a
> console which is preinstalled, ant apt install just works, nice. Though
> programs not adapted for the phone screen are rather weird, like vlc.
> But console ones is no problem, which is nice.
>
> Now let's see if it is as long lived as the gta04
>
> best regards
> Michael
> ___
> Community mailing list
> Community@tinkerphones.org
> http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
> http://www.tinkerphones.org
>
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Dr. Michael Lauer]

> But app developers (like those developing QtMoko) did expect 100% which we
> even have not achieved many years after the active development of QtMoko 
> ended.

Not just app developers, also middleware. In fact, the whole userland is 
depending on a 100%
functioning kernel – otherwise it’s just no fun anymore.

When I was younger, I could understand the „fixation“ on getting things into 
mainline – now, 
with more years on my back, I believe things would have turned out differently 
if we were
to follow the path of most commercial developers – which is, freezing the 
kernel at one point
of time to allow the rest of the folks to move forward without a moving target.

Later on, perhaps, submit stuff upstream, jump to another mainline kernel (if 
necessary), rinse
and repeat.

:M:

___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2021-02-13 14:53:00)
> 
> > Am 13.02.2021 um 11:52 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
> > 
> > Quoting michael spreng (2021-02-13 10:45:18)
> >> In December I received my librem5 phone and now had some time to try 
> >> it out. It seems to work reasonably well, can make phone calls and 
> >> messages. Though there is no support yet for the camera.
> > 
> > Seems camera support saw progress for the low-level driver part as 
> > recent as yesterday: 
> > https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/linux-next/-/merge_requests/309
> > 
> > User-level access to camera seems tracked here: 
> > https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/Apps_Issues/-/issues/6
> > 
> > Using the camera from sripts seems possible since 2 months (but possibly 
> > specific to certain revision of the phone, or maybe the devkit): 
> > https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/linux-next/-/merge_requests/255
> > 
> > The phone ships with the more stable "amber" release of PureOS.  Geeks 
> > might wanna explore the in-progress "byzantium" release instead, to get 
> > and play with bleeding edge changes: 
> > https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/Development_Environment/Phone/Troubleshooting/Reflashing_the_Phone.html
> > 
> > 
> >> Though programs not adapted for the phone screen are rather weird, 
> >> like vlc.
> > 
> > A geeky way to locate _some_ adaptive apps is to look for packages 
> > depending on libhandy-1-0 (or libhandy-0.0-0).  That only covers GTK 
> > apps, though - I am unaware if any such package-level indicators exist 
> > for Qt-based apps like VLC.
> > 
> > The user-friendly way is to use the appstore, which shows only adaptive 
> > apps - and yes, there are only very few so far...
> 
> I am sure this will change.

If by "this" you mean availability of adaptive apps, then I agree: Seems 
to me there is enough momentum - e.g. multiple vendors reusing code from 
each other, all tied to mainline Linux


> Our GTA04 history shows that the basics must work and then come apps. 
> Unfortunately it is a sisyphos work to make the basics work and keep 
> them running... So manpower to keep pace with upstream kernel releases 
> is key.
> 
> The main reason why we were (are) stuck with QtMoko and Replicant 
> is that the kernel is still not in a perfect shape like people need
> so that they can focus on improving their apps. And in the meantime
> nobody knows any more how to rebuild QtMoko and Replicant from scratch
> on a recent build system.

Seems to me the failure is directly tied to getting code pushed 
upstream.

Obviously when upstream project is dead (as is the case for QtMoko) 
there is no way to upstream - apart from taking over as upstream.  And I 
guess over-the-fence upstreams like Qt and Google can be painful to push 
changes to (e.g. require copyright assignment), but I am not familiar 
with the details of those.

Purism evidently invest in pushing code to mainline Linux and u-boot 
(and other projects higher up the stack as well).  Time will tell if 
they push enough, and if there continues to be enough momentum.

I am optimistic.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

signature.asc
Description: signature
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 13.02.2021 um 11:52 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
> 
> Quoting michael spreng (2021-02-13 10:45:18)
>> In December I received my librem5 phone and now had some time to try 
>> it out. It seems to work reasonably well, can make phone calls and 
>> messages. Though there is no support yet for the camera.
> 
> Seems camera support saw progress for the low-level driver part as 
> recent as yesterday: 
> https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/linux-next/-/merge_requests/309
> 
> User-level access to camera seems tracked here: 
> https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/Apps_Issues/-/issues/6
> 
> Using the camera from sripts seems possible since 2 months (but possibly 
> specific to certain revision of the phone, or maybe the devkit): 
> https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/linux-next/-/merge_requests/255
> 
> The phone ships with the more stable "amber" release of PureOS.  Geeks 
> might wanna explore the in-progress "byzantium" release instead, to get 
> and play with bleeding edge changes: 
> https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/Development_Environment/Phone/Troubleshooting/Reflashing_the_Phone.html
> 
> 
>> Though programs not adapted for the phone screen are rather weird, 
>> like vlc.
> 
> A geeky way to locate _some_ adaptive apps is to look for packages 
> depending on libhandy-1-0 (or libhandy-0.0-0).  That only covers GTK 
> apps, though - I am unaware if any such package-level indicators exist 
> for Qt-based apps like VLC.
> 
> The user-friendly way is to use the appstore, which shows only adaptive 
> apps - and yes, there are only very few so far...

I am sure this will change. Our GTA04 history shows that the basics
must work and then come apps. Unfortunately it is a sisyphos work
to make the basics work and keep them running... So manpower to
keep pace with upstream kernel releases is key.

The main reason why we were (are) stuck with QtMoko and Replicant 
is that the kernel is still not in a perfect shape like people need
so that they can focus on improving their apps. And in the meantime
nobody knows any more how to rebuild QtMoko and Replicant from scratch
on a recent build system.

___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 13.02.2021 um 10:45 schrieb michael spreng :
> 
> Hi
> 
> Some time ago there was a discussion if any librem5 have shipped, so I
> thought I would write a bit about mine:
> 
> In December I received my librem5 phone and now had some time to try it
> out. It seems to work reasonably well, can make phone calls and
> messages. Though there is no support yet for the camera. It has a
> console which is preinstalled, ant apt install just works, nice. Though
> programs not adapted for the phone screen are rather weird, like vlc.
> But console ones is no problem, which is nice.
> 
> Now let's see if it is as long lived as the gta04

Yes, I hope so...

> 
> best regards
> Michael
> ___
> Community mailing list
> Community@tinkerphones.org
> http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
> http://www.tinkerphones.org

___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting michael spreng (2021-02-13 10:45:18)
> In December I received my librem5 phone and now had some time to try 
> it out. It seems to work reasonably well, can make phone calls and 
> messages. Though there is no support yet for the camera.

Seems camera support saw progress for the low-level driver part as 
recent as yesterday: 
https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/linux-next/-/merge_requests/309

User-level access to camera seems tracked here: 
https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/Apps_Issues/-/issues/6

Using the camera from sripts seems possible since 2 months (but possibly 
specific to certain revision of the phone, or maybe the devkit): 
https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/linux-next/-/merge_requests/255

The phone ships with the more stable "amber" release of PureOS.  Geeks 
might wanna explore the in-progress "byzantium" release instead, to get 
and play with bleeding edge changes: 
https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/Development_Environment/Phone/Troubleshooting/Reflashing_the_Phone.html


> Though programs not adapted for the phone screen are rather weird, 
> like vlc.

A geeky way to locate _some_ adaptive apps is to look for packages 
depending on libhandy-1-0 (or libhandy-0.0-0).  That only covers GTK 
apps, though - I am unaware if any such package-level indicators exist 
for Qt-based apps like VLC.

The user-friendly way is to use the appstore, which shows only adaptive 
apps - and yes, there are only very few so far...


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

signature.asc
Description: signature
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5 news or progress?

[Matthias Weiß]

Have you seen this: 
https://puri.sm/posts/running-plasma-mobile-on-an-imx6-test-board/ 
 ?


> Am 22.12.2017 um 11:04 schrieb H. Nikolaus Schaller :
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> Am 22.12.2017 um 10:54 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
>> 
>> Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-12-22 08:25:35)
>>> I looked into the Forum and it seems to be very quite inactive to me:
>>> 
>>> https://forums.puri.sm/c/librem/phones?order=activity
>>> 
>>> Is there a mailing list or some active news blog or irc to follow?
>> 
>> News blog: https://puri.sm/news/
> 
> Well, I meant a Librem 5 specific one. The last post there seems to be from 
> beginning of October.
> 
> BR,
> Nikolaus
> 
> ___
> Community mailing list
> Community@tinkerphones.org
> http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
> http://www.tinkerphones.org

___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 28.10.2017 um 15:45 schrieb Paul Boddie :
> 
> On Saturday 28. October 2017 14.14.26 rhn wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 13:33:17 +0200 "H. Nikolaus Schaller"
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> But I just found this morning:
>>> https://community.imgtec.com/developers/powervr/documentation/
>>> 
>>> This looks to be very important (dated 07 Apr 2017):
>>> http://cdn.imgtec.com/sdk-documentation/PowerVR+Instruction+Set+Referenc
>>> e.pdf
>>> 
>>> I haven't spent time to look through the other material, but it looks as
>>> if IMG has become much more open!
> 
> I think expectations are so low with Imagination Technologies and openness of 
> PowerVR that any new public documentation (if it is new) could easily pass by 
> unnoticed. I wonder if policies will change under their new ownership 
> (subject 
> to approval of the acquisition).
> 
>>> Maybe this material is already sufficient to write an open source
>>> firmware for the PVR and assembler/compiler for shaders but this is
>>> something for 3D/GPU experts (you know I am hardware expert and still
>>> struggle with Linux kernels :).
>> 
>> this is a nice find! Quite a few documents there indeed.
>> 
>> As you have said, shaders got suddenly much easier. Still, there's a long
>> way to go from there, as shader ISA is only part of the equation. I had
>> just a skim, but I couldn't immediately find the two other important
>> pieces: communication protocol and, if it's relevant for this GPU,
>> initialization and power features.

Well, the communication protocol can either be found out by analyzing the
open source drivers on SoC side, e.g.:


http://git.goldelico.com/?p=gta04-kernel.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/work/letux-base/hns/gpu/pvr-v4

or we could think about developing our own. It must only match between libs and 
firmware.

The firmware is of course very important and almost unknown, except that it
exists and is loaded into the GPU by the SoC.

And to add another unknown: memory management.

> 
> I also saw this:
> 
> "Refer to the main PowerVR ISR document (NDA required) for precise 
> information 
> regarding feature availability."

Yes, I have seen this as well, but if it is about feature availability only,
we could start with the lowest common denominator which would be PowerVR 5.

> 
> I don't see any opcode or instruction format details, so perhaps this is also 
> an obstacle.

Yes, but there has been done some reverse engineering years ago. It was just
not possible to match that with assembler mnemonics:


http://web.archive.org/web/20161110215418/http://powervr.gnu.org.ve/doku.php?id=opcodes

http://web.archive.org/web/20160423202102/http://powervr.gnu.org.ve/doku.php?id=instructionencoding

We were never able to understand what these bit patterns mean. With the new 
documentation
it seams in reach.

And for instruction encoding, there are also tools for download to compile
shader code from source (PowerVRShaderEditor). It looks like it shows a 
disassembler
listing, just not the binary. But if we have the binary of known code, it is 
not that
difficult to deduce the encoding scheme.

For example:

#version 310 es

precision mediump float;

in vec4 inVertex;
out vec2 textureCoordinate;

void main()
{
textureCoordinate = vec2(1.0, 1.0);
gl_Position = inVertex;
}

=>

0: mov ft0, vi3
   mov ft0.e0.e1.e2.e3, ft0
   uvsw.write ft0, 3;

1: mov ft0, vi2
   mov ft0.e0.e1.e2.e3, ft0
   uvsw.write ft0, 2;

2: mov ft0, vi1
   mov ft0.e0.e1.e2.e3, ft0
   uvsw.write ft0, 1;

3: mov ft0, vi0
   mov ft0.e0.e1.e2.e3, ft0
   uvsw.write ft0, 0;

4: mov ft0, c64
   mov ft0.e0.e1.e2.e3, ft0
   uvsw.write ft0, 5;

5: mov ft0, c64
   mov ft0.e0.e1.e2.e3, ft0
   uvsw.write ft0, 4;


> 
> [...]
> 
>> Depending on the level of control that firmware has on PVR, replacing it
>> may be necessary. With new NVIDIA cards, nouveau is stuck with power
>> issues: clock speeds can only be altered by signed firmware they have no
>> access to. I haven't seen anything about firmware among the PVR docs.
> 
> This kind of thing was already worrying me, and now you have confirmed that 
> it 
> is actually done, which is very troubling indeed.

As far as I have experiences, it is not. At least for the older SGX530 and 
SGX544
inside TI SoC.

BR,
Nikolaus

___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Paul Boddie]

On Saturday 28. October 2017 14.14.26 rhn wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 13:33:17 +0200 "H. Nikolaus Schaller"
>  wrote:
> > 
> > But I just found this morning:
> > https://community.imgtec.com/developers/powervr/documentation/
> > 
> > This looks to be very important (dated 07 Apr 2017):
> > http://cdn.imgtec.com/sdk-documentation/PowerVR+Instruction+Set+Referenc
> > e.pdf
> > 
> > I haven't spent time to look through the other material, but it looks as
> > if IMG has become much more open!

I think expectations are so low with Imagination Technologies and openness of 
PowerVR that any new public documentation (if it is new) could easily pass by 
unnoticed. I wonder if policies will change under their new ownership (subject 
to approval of the acquisition).

> > Maybe this material is already sufficient to write an open source
> > firmware for the PVR and assembler/compiler for shaders but this is
> > something for 3D/GPU experts (you know I am hardware expert and still
> > struggle with Linux kernels :).
> 
> this is a nice find! Quite a few documents there indeed.
> 
> As you have said, shaders got suddenly much easier. Still, there's a long
> way to go from there, as shader ISA is only part of the equation. I had
> just a skim, but I couldn't immediately find the two other important
> pieces: communication protocol and, if it's relevant for this GPU,
> initialization and power features.

I also saw this:

"Refer to the main PowerVR ISR document (NDA required) for precise information 
regarding feature availability."

I don't see any opcode or instruction format details, so perhaps this is also 
an obstacle.

[...]

> Depending on the level of control that firmware has on PVR, replacing it
> may be necessary. With new NVIDIA cards, nouveau is stuck with power
> issues: clock speeds can only be altered by signed firmware they have no
> access to. I haven't seen anything about firmware among the PVR docs.

This kind of thing was already worrying me, and now you have confirmed that it 
is actually done, which is very troubling indeed.

Paul
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Matthias Weiß]

This would be nice especially because of quantum step x)

Am Mittwoch 25. Oktober 2017 schrieb H. Nikolaus Schaller:
> 
> > Am 25.10.2017 um 12:11 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
> > 
> > Quoting Rainer Dorsch (2017-10-25 10:57:38)
> >> On Mittwoch, 25. Oktober 2017 09:55:24 CEST Belisko Marek wrote:
> >>> I didn't pledged because I was not aware that such thing exists :)
> >> 
> >> I think you can still preorder...
> > 
> > Correct: Fundraising campaign is formally over, but Librem 5 can still 
> > be pre-ordered until available for regular sale.
> 
> If we are talking about funding: it is also still possible to donate/fund the
> tinkerphones and Letux-OS activities:
> 
> http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Products=Project%20Support
> 
> Maybe, this can even be made running on the Librem 5 once it becomes
> available. To have even more alternatives to what is already promised.
> 
> BR,
> Nikolaus
> ___
> Community mailing list
> Community@tinkerphones.org
> http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
> http://www.tinkerphones.org
>

-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Matthias Weiß
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Rainer Dorsch]

On Mittwoch, 25. Oktober 2017 09:55:24 CEST Belisko Marek wrote:
> I didn't pledged because I was not aware that such thing exists :)

I think you can still preorder...

Rainer

-- 
Rainer Dorsch
http://bokomoko.de/
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Belisko Marek]

Hi,

On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 7:09 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
wrote:
> Hi,
> Librem 5 was now successfully funded.
>
> Anyone here on this list who pledged for one?
I didn't pledged because I was not aware that such thing exists :)
>
> I'd be interested in what you expect it can do
> what the Letux activities can't or don't.
I think what is good selling point is how final device will look like
(for sure  people care about HW, more ram, flash, fast CPU and a lot
of storage) but finally people always choose based on feeling.
To be honest I used my gta02 for few months as main phone for few
months. It was nice as people was starring at it and asking questions
:). But in final nobody buy it :( So even maybe phones for tinkering
should get some nice cover could gain atractivity for "normal people.
Other that that I think Letux & Nikolaus is doing great job - hat
down.
>
> BR,
> Nikolaus
>
> ___
> Community mailing list
> Community@tinkerphones.org
> http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
> http://www.tinkerphones.org

BR,

marek



-- 
as simple and primitive as possible
-
Marek Belisko - OPEN-NANDRA
Freelance Developer

Ruska Nova Ves 219 | Presov, 08005 Slovak Republic
Tel: +421 915 052 184
skype: marekwhite
twitter: #opennandra
web: http://open-nandra.com
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Paul Bryan]

I pledged for the developer unit, really out of curiousity. I don't see
Librem seriously challenging the phone platform duopoly anytime soon.
It would take a large following to do so, or a mass migration toward
web-based mobile apps (I'm secretly hoping FireFoxOS was just ahead of
its time).

My crowdfunding well is not dry for such initiatives. I backed the
Neo900 (which I've now written off) and am currently a Pyra LTE model
backer. I'm personally hoping one platform can get some kind of a niche
foothold, and build a following from there.

Paul

On Tue, 2017-10-24 at 19:09 +0200, H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> Hi,
> Librem 5 was now successfully funded.
> 
> Anyone here on this list who pledged for one?
> 
> I'd be interested in what you expect it can do
> what the Letux activities can't or don't.
> 
> BR,
> Nikolaus
> 
> ___
> Community mailing list
> Community@tinkerphones.org
> http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
> http://www.tinkerphones.org___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[W. Martin Borgert]

On 2017-10-24 19:09, H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> Anyone here on this list who pledged for one?

I pledged for the developer board, because I want to be sure,
that "my" Debian packages will run fine on it. Also, I will try
to use it as a landline SIP phone and XMPP terminal.

Still, as a mobile device, I find other devices more interesting
than Librem 5. E.g. ZeroPhone, because it is cheap and simple or
Pyra, because it has a nice keyboard.

A very good thing about Librem 5 is, IMHO, that it has the
potential to boost Linux on mobile devices in general. All other
"non-Android-Linux" devices will benefit from it.

Cheers
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[rhn]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 22:06:00 +0200
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 9:46 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >  
> > > Am 24.10.2017 um 20:43 schrieb Matthias Weiß :
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > i also backed on one.
> > >
> > > I like the cooperation with gnome/kde projects and the focus on matrix.  
> >
> > Yes, this are important steps.
> >
> > Gnome/KDE could theoretically just be some
> >
> > apt-get install gnome
> >
> > on the GTA04. I never had the idea to try:)
> >
> > Probably it will be a little slow and more importantly the applications and 
> > widgets
> > are not optimized for the portrait screen format and rather low pixel 
> > density.
> >
> > So it will be almost impossible to operate. Unless someone is heavily 
> > modifying
> > the code. That seems to be the case with the KDE/Gnome & Purism partnership 
> > that
> > they now start to do something.  
> 
> KDE has had some projects for providing mobile-optimized Plasma UI
> since KDE 4, while GNOME Shell feels like a tablet UI even on the
> desktop. I think both can be used already on some Android phones via
> compatibility layers like libhybris.
> 
> The only problem is that both are heavily relying on OpenGL (ES)
> acceleration, and I think that's the main differentiating point
> between GTA04 and Librem 5 when it comes to software support - free
> drivers for GLES on the GPU.
> 
> (Plasma should be possible to run without OpenGL with QtQuick's 2D
> renderer that has been open sourced with Qt 5.6 IIRC, but that's
> definitely not a well-supported setup. May be worth some tinkering
> though to check how it works on GTA04 :))
> https://plasma-mobile.org/
> 
> BTW. What's the situation with PowerVR closed drivers on GTA04 with
> current kernels? Unfortunately I got slightly out of touch these days,
> time to catch up :)

The state is not so good for PowerVR:

https://nullr0ute.com/2017/09/the-state-of-open-source-accelerated-graphics-on-arm-devices/

that's one of the reasons I decided to go for Librem 5 instead of considering a 
Pyra-phone, apart from the latter having no camera.

Cheers,
rhn
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Matthias Weiß]

Hello, 

i also backed on one. 

I like the cooperation with gnome/kde projects and the focus on matrix. 
With a i.MX 8 / 3GB RAM it has also enough power to run most applications with 
desktop features 
(for example with external display or just if i want a full firefox/libreoffice 
like on ubtouch/libertine).
Also the kill switches and the „external modem“ are nice promised features.

But indeed i liked it more with the gta04 form factor ;)

The gta04 has (for me) just not enough power; 
if it would based for example on the pyra boards i had backed/brought a 
„gtaPyra“ rather than on the Librem 5.

cu
Matthias


> Am 24.10.2017 um 19:09 schrieb H. Nikolaus Schaller :
> 
> Hi,
> Librem 5 was now successfully funded.
> 
> Anyone here on this list who pledged for one?
> 
> I'd be interested in what you expect it can do
> what the Letux activities can't or don't.
> 
> BR,
> Nikolaus
> 
> ___
> Community mailing list
> Community@tinkerphones.org
> http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
> http://www.tinkerphones.org

___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org

Re: [Tinkerphones] Librem 5

[Gilles Filippini]

H. Nikolaus Schaller a écrit le 24/10/2017 à 19:09 :
> Hi,
> Librem 5 was now successfully funded.
> 
> Anyone here on this list who pledged for one?

I did.

> I'd be interested in what you expect it can do
> what the Letux activities can't or don't.

I had an Openmoko from 2008 until 2011. It looked like already outdated
by then, and I missed many calls but struggled to keep it barely
working. I had to send it in germany, then, for a few weeks to fix a
hardware bug, and bought a cheap Adndroid 2 Huawei phone for the
interim. When I received my patched Openmoko I was used to Android and
having a working phone. I never could switch back to my Openmoko which
has been collecting dust in a drawer since then.
I've been following the tinkerphone mailing list all this time and was
quite disappointed about the complex soldering problems you've experienced.
When I heard about the Librem 5 project I just felt more confident in
their capacity to overcome these difficulties, because of their
experience with notebooks.

Anyway, thank Nikolaus for your tireless work toward a free phone. What
you've done so far is awesome.

_g.
___
Community mailing list
Community@tinkerphones.org
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/community
http://www.tinkerphones.org