Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
2008/7/28 Ray Tayek [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 07:53 PM 7/27/2008, you wrote: The traditional programs are around 10 kyu, but the new ones are 2 to 4 kyu, at least on KGS. I've seen some handicap games against dan players that are consistent with these ratings. wow. that's impressive. can one buy these or just play the on kgs? You can download for free an old version of MoGo (which reached 2k on KGS on a 4 CPU machine) at: http://www.lri.fr/~gelly/MoGo_Download.htm Enjoy, Sylvain It wouldn't surprise me to see 1 dan from an MC program before 2010, running on an 8 processor mainstream system. David 1-dan in two years? i must give your opinion a lot a weight, but i remain skeptical. how strong will the next version of manyfaces be? (and when can i buy it). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ray Tayek Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 7:09 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most? At 06:23 PM 7/27/2008, you wrote: I have a strong interest in seeing a 19x19 computer go program that is at least 3-dan by 2010. we all do. but as the programs are only about 10-kyu these days, we will be lucky to get to the small kyu ratings by 2010 and then you will hit a hard wall. i think michael is correct when he mentions incentive. there are not to many $'s out there to go after. some of us try to get the programs into tournaments (like http://www.cotsengotournament.com/), but the aga refuses to allow the games for credit. ... --- vice-chair http://ocjug.org/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
2008/7/28 David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The traditional programs are around 10 kyu, but the new ones are 2 to 4 kyu, at least on KGS. I've seen some handicap games against dan players that are consistent with these ratings. It wouldn't surprise me to see 1 dan from an MC program before 2010, running on an 8 processor mainstream system. David Here is a big catch for setting goals. 3-dan by which organization/server/whatever. At what point of time? KGS has gone through mane abrupt ratings changes and and I don't see any reason why it would not go through such a thing in future as well. Currently 2k KGS is about 5k EGF. So best of MC programs would still need about 7-9 stones handicap from European 3-dan (which is not well defined strength either). That is about 700-1000 Elo-points and if we assume 100 elo gain for a doubling of CPU power . So 1D KGS within year or two 1D EGF I doubt if that happen within 5 years, But if thre is a new innovation on par with MC_UCT. Then maybe. -- Petri Pitkänen e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
My question isn't about how strong programs are now, or what is the definition of a dan, or what you think will happen in the future. The question is: what do you need to give your current 19x19 program another 6-ish ranks in strength (or 6+N where N is the distance between your program and the top programs). Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n, linux, ...) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
I'm not the author of a strong program, but I'll throw another item into the list: more incentive. For many, computer go competes for time with many other hobbies and perhaps even a day job. The big Ing prize brought many people into computer-go, all working in parallel, competing, to make mediocre programs. And plenty of progress has been made in the past few years, without any big money being offered. Could it be that the lack of financial incentive makes people willing to share their work and knowledge, and that that is behind recent progress? (I don't know, it could just be coincidence.) Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n, linux, ...) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
Personally, I think the next big strength jump would come from combining localized searches/sequences with the global search's MC playouts. Curiously, my guess is the opposite: using UCT as the node evaluation in a more traditional alpha-beta searcher. (It's been mentioned a few times here but I don't think anyone has given it a serious try yet?) (BTW, David, the new Many Faces combines traditional algorithms and UCT; how are they working together?) I always recommend to new developers that they join forces with other developers to reduce the total work to get a strong bot. I think the more people we have starting from a solid bot implementation, the faster we'll discover the next great strength breakthrough. There are lots of competing projects, some open source, some in universities, some commercial. The thinking behind my question is perhaps I can help them all by working on a really good opening library (or connection patterns, or optimized UCT implementation, or whatever is needed most). Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n, linux, ...) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
Various branches of the US government (including NIST) have developed a very successful approach to funding research. Set up a measurable competition (such as we already have with CGOS) and then fund research groups through a series of rounds, with the results of each funding round being influenced by the group's success at the measurable competition in the previous rounds. This obviously works better in some fields than in others, but there's no reason it couldn't work for go. cheers stuart On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 8:54 PM, Darren Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not the author of a strong program, but I'll throw another item into the list: more incentive. For many, computer go competes for time with many other hobbies and perhaps even a day job. The big Ing prize brought many people into computer-go, all working in parallel, competing, to make mediocre programs. And plenty of progress has been made in the past few years, without any big money being offered. Could it be that the lack of financial incentive makes people willing to share their work and knowledge, and that that is behind recent progress? (I don't know, it could just be coincidence.) Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n, linux, ...) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
For example, CrazyStone [1k]and MoGoBot1 [2k]. i found and played a few bots on kgs. can you tell me the name of yours and some of the stronger ones? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
At 12:43 AM 7/28/2008, you wrote: 2008/7/28 Ray Tayek mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] At 07:53 PM 7/27/2008, you wrote: The traditional programs are around 10 kyu, but the new ones are 2 to 4 kyu,... wow. that's impressive. can one buy these or just play the on kgs? You can download for free an old version of MoGo (which reached 2k on KGS on a 4 CPU machine) at: http://www.lri.fr/~gelly/MoGo_Download.htmhttp://www.lri.fr/~gelly/MoGo_Download.htm the exe just sits there. iirc, i need some sort of gui ? can you tell me what that is? thanks --- vice-chair http://ocjug.org/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
You can download for free an old version of MoGo (which reached 2k on KGS on a 4 CPU machine) at: http://www.lri.fr/~gelly/MoGo_Download.htmhttp://www.lri.fr/%7Egelly/MoGo_Download.htm http://www.lri.fr/~gelly/MoGo_Download.htmhttp://www.lri.fr/%7Egelly/MoGo_Download.htm the exe just sits there. iirc, i need some sort of gui ? can you tell me what that is? Yes you need some sort of gui. In the section Installation and use instructions I give some name and links to some available gui. Did you try the 2 first? Drago gives specific instructions for MoGo at: http://www.godrago.net/Engines.htm GoGui should not be more difficult to use either. Cheers, Sylvain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
Oops. Please ignore ... AvK ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
the $500K/year to hire an expert team of programmers to incorporate everyone's source code into an open-source framework is pretty wasteful. just let people dig through the code on their own. it'd be good enough, and save $500K/year. there's no real reason to give out the hardware, either, unless you want to encourage people to spend their time each year developing tinier and tinier high-powered wireless devices for cheating. all they need is access to an equivalent machine (say, ssh access) during the year to test and write speed optimizations. also, after this ran for a few years and started to get very competitive, it'd be difficult to convince people to give away their source code every year for the chance to win $100K/year. one reason is that commercial exploitation of their code would begin to be worth more as the strength improved significantly. another way to do all of this is to set aside a large chunk of money, let it accumulate interest, and have small milestones set each year that can pay prizes from a portion of that interest if they are met. this automatically ends up raising the value of the milestones over time. s. On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 4:24 AM, Mark Boon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's a question I have often contemplated. I don't think you can do anything now that will greatly influence what the level in 2010 will be. You have to think a little longer term. What it takes is fairly simple, it takes a million bucks per year (roughly). Getting that million bucks is not so simple, but if I had it to spend on computer-Go, here's what I'd do: - Use a system like CGOS to create an online testing system / community. - At some predetermined date the top n programs (say 16) get a standard state-of-the-art PC to work on. - Half a year later those 16 programs play an extensive tournament using the standard hardware. - Prize-money is $100K, $80K, $60K, $40K and $20K for the top five. - All participants contribute their source-code to an open-source project created for this event. - The cost of organising the competition above is about $500K per year, the other $500K is spent on hiring a team of expert programmers who incorporate the contributions of the competing programs into an open-source framework. This is sketchy and lacks some vital details, but you get the idea. The main points are a) Everybody starts from an equal base each year. b) The PC used is a standardized piece of equipment. c) The prize-money is enough to make people turn in their source-code. Since coming in 2nd or 3rd isnt much less an achievement as coming in 1st, the prize-money is also not much less. With a competition like this in place, I think the progress in a decade will be astounding. Now we have to find a sugar-daddy who's willing to put in the $1M each year :-) Mark On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Darren Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a strong interest in seeing a 19x19 computer go program that is at least 3-dan by 2010. The recent jump in strength on the 9x9 board has given me new hope and I want to ask people here, especially the authors of strong programs, what you now need to make the next jump in strength. There seem to be four broad categories: * More hardware (CPU cycles? Memory? Faster networking? Do you just need that hardware for offline tuning, or for playing too?) * More data * New algorithms (if so, to solve exactly what? evaluation? search? other?) * More community By community I mean things like this mailing list, CGOS, open source projects, etc. By data I mean things like: game records, or board positions, marked up with correct/incorrect moves; game records generally; pattern libraries; test suites; opening libraries. Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n, linux, ...) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
On Jul 28, 2008, at 5:04 AM, Darren Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I think the next big strength jump would come from combining localized searches/sequences with the global search's MC playouts. Curiously, my guess is the opposite: using UCT as the node evaluation in a more traditional alpha-beta searcher. (It's been mentioned a few times here but I don't think anyone has given it a serious try yet?) I have an alpha beta searcher that uses MC node evaluations. The last time I played with it was before I got my core 10x faster. I don't expect grand things from it yet. For example I don't have CrazyStone's ELO move ratings would be great for-based move ordering. Also, I'm unsure if MC noise would dominate the alpha-beta search. (BTW, David, the new Many Faces combines traditional algorithms and UCT; how are they working together?) I always recommend to new developers that they join forces with other developers to reduce the total work to get a strong bot. I think the more people we have starting from a solid bot implementation, the faster we'll discover the next great strength breakthrough. There are lots of competing projects, some open source, some in universities, some commercial. The thinking behind my question is perhaps I can help them all by working on a really good opening library (or connection patterns, or optimized UCT implementation, or whatever is needed most). Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n, linux, ...) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
Hi Mark, I like your basic idea very much (minor details aside of course.) I think 2 things have been largely responsible for the sudden increase in the strength of computer go programs: 1. Nicks KGS tournaments. 2. CGOS And your idea is an extension and improvement of these 2 things.I don't agree with all the details, but probably no 2 people would! - Don Mark Boon wrote: It's a question I have often contemplated. I don't think you can do anything now that will greatly influence what the level in 2010 will be. You have to think a little longer term. What it takes is fairly simple, it takes a million bucks per year (roughly). Getting that million bucks is not so simple, but if I had it to spend on computer-Go, here's what I'd do: - Use a system like CGOS to create an online testing system / community. - At some predetermined date the top n programs (say 16) get a standard state-of-the-art PC to work on. - Half a year later those 16 programs play an extensive tournament using the standard hardware. - Prize-money is $100K, $80K, $60K, $40K and $20K for the top five. - All participants contribute their source-code to an open-source project created for this event. - The cost of organising the competition above is about $500K per year, the other $500K is spent on hiring a team of expert programmers who incorporate the contributions of the competing programs into an open-source framework. This is sketchy and lacks some vital details, but you get the idea. The main points are a) Everybody starts from an equal base each year. b) The PC used is a standardized piece of equipment. c) The prize-money is enough to make people turn in their source-code. Since coming in 2nd or 3rd isnt much less an achievement as coming in 1st, the prize-money is also not much less. With a competition like this in place, I think the progress in a decade will be astounding. Now we have to find a sugar-daddy who's willing to put in the $1M each year :-) Mark On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Darren Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a strong interest in seeing a 19x19 computer go program that is at least 3-dan by 2010. The recent jump in strength on the 9x9 board has given me new hope and I want to ask people here, especially the authors of strong programs, what you now need to make the next jump in strength. There seem to be four broad categories: * More hardware (CPU cycles? Memory? Faster networking? Do you just need that hardware for offline tuning, or for playing too?) * More data * New algorithms (if so, to solve exactly what? evaluation? search? other?) * More community By community I mean things like this mailing list, CGOS, open source projects, etc. By data I mean things like: game records, or board positions, marked up with correct/incorrect moves; game records generally; pattern libraries; test suites; opening libraries. Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n, linux, ...) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
Hi Don, Yes, there would be as many different approaches as people. I also agree that the KGS tournaments and CGOS have contributed a lot. But don't underestimate the influence of idea-sharing. Both GNU- Go and the many research papers about UCT/MC have contributed a lot, both by getting knowledge out and people in (volved). IMO more even than the online tournaments. But it's hard to quantify these things I also think that in the past the Ing competition has boosted computer-Go more than anything since. And that with only 1/10th of the money in my 'proposal'. Mark On 28-jul-08, at 11:06, Don Dailey wrote: Hi Mark, I like your basic idea very much (minor details aside of course.) I think 2 things have been largely responsible for the sudden increase in the strength of computer go programs: 1. Nicks KGS tournaments. 2. CGOS And your idea is an extension and improvement of these 2 things. I don't agree with all the details, but probably no 2 people would! - Don Mark Boon wrote: It's a question I have often contemplated. I don't think you can do anything now that will greatly influence what the level in 2010 will be. You have to think a little longer term. What it takes is fairly simple, it takes a million bucks per year (roughly). Getting that million bucks is not so simple, but if I had it to spend on computer-Go, here's what I'd do: - Use a system like CGOS to create an online testing system / community. - At some predetermined date the top n programs (say 16) get a standard state-of-the-art PC to work on. - Half a year later those 16 programs play an extensive tournament using the standard hardware. - Prize-money is $100K, $80K, $60K, $40K and $20K for the top five. - All participants contribute their source-code to an open-source project created for this event. - The cost of organising the competition above is about $500K per year, the other $500K is spent on hiring a team of expert programmers who incorporate the contributions of the competing programs into an open-source framework. This is sketchy and lacks some vital details, but you get the idea. The main points are a) Everybody starts from an equal base each year. b) The PC used is a standardized piece of equipment. c) The prize-money is enough to make people turn in their source- code. Since coming in 2nd or 3rd isnt much less an achievement as coming in 1st, the prize-money is also not much less. With a competition like this in place, I think the progress in a decade will be astounding. Now we have to find a sugar-daddy who's willing to put in the $1M each year :-) Mark On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Darren Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a strong interest in seeing a 19x19 computer go program that is at least 3-dan by 2010. The recent jump in strength on the 9x9 board has given me new hope and I want to ask people here, especially the authors of strong programs, what you now need to make the next jump in strength. There seem to be four broad categories: * More hardware (CPU cycles? Memory? Faster networking? Do you just need that hardware for offline tuning, or for playing too?) * More data * New algorithms (if so, to solve exactly what? evaluation? search? other?) * More community By community I mean things like this mailing list, CGOS, open source projects, etc. By data I mean things like: game records, or board positions, marked up with correct/incorrect moves; game records generally; pattern libraries; test suites; opening libraries. Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n, linux, ...) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
