Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against CrazyStone

2016-05-25 Thread Aja Huang 
On 23 May 2016 08:00, "Rémi Coulom" <remi.cou...@free.fr> wrote:
>
> I think one of the main problems is that the network learns good replies
to good moves. The training set does not have good replies to bad moves,
but the search tree is full of bad moves that need to be punished.

As the joseki that CS messed up was quite basic, it looks like a bug in
your search or a problem of your policy network. Maybe you should train and
run your networks on GPU.

Aja

> Alvaro's suggestion looks good. This is one of the experiments I want to
try.
>
> Rémi
>
>
> On 05/22/2016 11:41 PM, Henry Hemming wrote:
>>
>> If the network is too selective, the cost function used to generate it
doesn't penalize extreme predictions sufficiently? It was generated using
quadratic cost when it should have been using cross-entropy cost?
>>
>> On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 12:08 AM Álvaro Begué <alvaro.be...@gmail.com
<mailto:alvaro.be...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Disclaimer: I haven't actually implemented MCTS with NNs, but I
>> have played around with both techniques.
>>
>> Would it make sense to artificially scale down the values before
>> the SoftMax is applied, so the probability distribution is not as
>> concentrated, and unlikely moves are not penalized as much?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Rémi Coulom <remi.cou...@free.fr
>> <mailto:remi.cou...@free.fr>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Thanks for using Crazy Stone.
>>
>> I tried changes during the week, but nothing worked. So the
>> version that played the game was almost identical to the
>> commercial version.
>>
>> The search did not anticipate Black E8 after B3. It seems the
>> NN makes the search too selective. I will investigate more.
>>
>> Rémi
>>
>> - Mail original -
>> De: "Paweł Morawiecki" <pawel.morawie...@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:pawel.morawie...@gmail.com>>
>> À: computer-go@computer-go.org
>> <mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org>
>>
>> Envoyé: Dimanche 22 Mai 2016 21:29:56
>> Objet: Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented
>> game against  CrazyStone
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It's fun to hear the pro making comments as she goes. I had
>> hoped for a better game, though.
>> Any comments from the CS camp?
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not from CrazyStone Team but a happy user of CS Deep
Learning.
>>
>>
>> I analyzed the game (30 000 playouts per move) with the
>> version commercially available and it got everything right. I
>> mean every move Hajin Lee questioned was also questioned by
>> CrazyStone running on my PC. It includes:
>>
>>
>> - questionable attachment in the first joseki they played
>> - hane in upper-left corner
>> - and finally a blunder at b3 (loosing move) and selection of
>> this joseki as well
>>
>>
>> Remi said that he's been working hard to improve CS over the
>> last week, but it looks like something went wrong and instead
>> he got clearly a weaker program. Particularly this B3 is
>> really strange, where right after this white catches
>> everything with one move. Remi, what went wrong?
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Paweł
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Álvaro.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:58 AM, Xavier Combelle <
>> xavier.combe...@gmail.com <mailto:xavier.combe...@gmail.com> >
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> That's fantastic
>>
>>
>> I suppose crazystone will play with crazystone account, but
>> what will be her handle ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2016-05-16 9:50 GMT+02:00 Rémi Coulom < remi.cou...@free.fr
>> <mailto:remi.cou...@free.fr> > :
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am very happy to announce that Hajin Lee will play a live
>> commented game against Crazy Stone on Sunday, at 8PM Korean
>>

Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against CrazyStone

2016-05-23 Thread Gian-Carlo Pascutto 
On 22/05/2016 23:07, Álvaro Begué wrote:
> Disclaimer: I haven't actually implemented MCTS with NNs, but I have
> played around with both techniques.
> 
> Would it make sense to artificially scale down the values before the
> SoftMax is applied, so the probability distribution is not as
> concentrated, and unlikely moves are not penalized as much?

Not really, you can just treat the values as priors in UCT, and it's a
classical exploration/exploitation dilemma again. No need to fiddle with
the NN itself. You have the search exactly to find whether the NN is
wrong, after all.

Unsurprisingly, self-play favors extreme selectivity, but this does not
hold against other opponents. Wonder if anything went wrong there for CS :-)

-- 
GCP
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Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against CrazyStone

2016-05-23 Thread Rémi Coulom 
I think one of the main problems is that the network learns good replies 
to good moves. The training set does not have good replies to bad moves, 
but the search tree is full of bad moves that need to be punished.


Alvaro's suggestion looks good. This is one of the experiments I want to 
try.


Rémi

On 05/22/2016 11:41 PM, Henry Hemming wrote:
If the network is too selective, the cost function used to generate it 
doesn't penalize extreme predictions sufficiently? It was generated 
using quadratic cost when it should have been using cross-entropy cost?


On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 12:08 AM Álvaro Begué <alvaro.be...@gmail.com 
<mailto:alvaro.be...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Disclaimer: I haven't actually implemented MCTS with NNs, but I
have played around with both techniques.

Would it make sense to artificially scale down the values before
the SoftMax is applied, so the probability distribution is not as
concentrated, and unlikely moves are not penalized as much?



On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Rémi Coulom <remi.cou...@free.fr
<mailto:remi.cou...@free.fr>> wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for using Crazy Stone.

I tried changes during the week, but nothing worked. So the
version that played the game was almost identical to the
commercial version.

The search did not anticipate Black E8 after B3. It seems the
NN makes the search too selective. I will investigate more.

Rémi

- Mail original -
De: "Paweł Morawiecki" <pawel.morawie...@gmail.com
<mailto:pawel.morawie...@gmail.com>>
À: computer-go@computer-go.org
<mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org>
Envoyé: Dimanche 22 Mai 2016 21:29:56
    Objet: Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented
game against  CrazyStone



Hi,









It's fun to hear the pro making comments as she goes. I had
hoped for a better game, though.
Any comments from the CS camp?



I'm not from CrazyStone Team but a happy user of CS Deep Learning.


I analyzed the game (30 000 playouts per move) with the
version commercially available and it got everything right. I
mean every move Hajin Lee questioned was also questioned by
CrazyStone running on my PC. It includes:


- questionable attachment in the first joseki they played
- hane in upper-left corner
- and finally a blunder at b3 (loosing move) and selection of
this joseki as well


Remi said that he's been working hard to improve CS over the
last week, but it looks like something went wrong and instead
he got clearly a weaker program. Particularly this B3 is
really strange, where right after this white catches
everything with one move. Remi, what went wrong?


Cheers,
Paweł













Thanks,
Álvaro.








On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:58 AM, Xavier Combelle <
xavier.combe...@gmail.com <mailto:xavier.combe...@gmail.com> >
wrote:



That's fantastic


I suppose crazystone will play with crazystone account, but
what will be her handle ?





2016-05-16 9:50 GMT+02:00 Rémi Coulom < remi.cou...@free.fr
<mailto:remi.cou...@free.fr> > :


Hi,

I am very happy to announce that Hajin Lee will play a live
commented game against Crazy Stone on Sunday, at 8PM Korean
time. The game will take place on KGS, and she will make live
comments on her youtube channel.

Haylee's youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/c/HayleesWorldofGoBaduk

Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against CrazyStone

2016-05-22 Thread Henry Hemming 
If the network is too selective, the cost function used to generate it
doesn't penalize extreme predictions sufficiently? It was generated using
quadratic cost when it should have been using cross-entropy cost?

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 12:08 AM Álvaro Begué <alvaro.be...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Disclaimer: I haven't actually implemented MCTS with NNs, but I have
> played around with both techniques.
>
> Would it make sense to artificially scale down the values before the
> SoftMax is applied, so the probability distribution is not as concentrated,
> and unlikely moves are not penalized as much?
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Rémi Coulom <remi.cou...@free.fr> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Thanks for using Crazy Stone.
>>
>> I tried changes during the week, but nothing worked. So the version that
>> played the game was almost identical to the commercial version.
>>
>> The search did not anticipate Black E8 after B3. It seems the NN makes
>> the search too selective. I will investigate more.
>>
>> Rémi
>>
>> - Mail original -
>> De: "Paweł Morawiecki" <pawel.morawie...@gmail.com>
>> À: computer-go@computer-go.org
>> Envoyé: Dimanche 22 Mai 2016 21:29:56
>> Objet: Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game
>> against  CrazyStone
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It's fun to hear the pro making comments as she goes. I had hoped for a
>> better game, though.
>> Any comments from the CS camp?
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not from CrazyStone Team but a happy user of CS Deep Learning.
>>
>>
>> I analyzed the game (30 000 playouts per move) with the version
>> commercially available and it got everything right. I mean every move Hajin
>> Lee questioned was also questioned by CrazyStone running on my PC. It
>> includes:
>>
>>
>> - questionable attachment in the first joseki they played
>> - hane in upper-left corner
>> - and finally a blunder at b3 (loosing move) and selection of this joseki
>> as well
>>
>>
>> Remi said that he's been working hard to improve CS over the last week,
>> but it looks like something went wrong and instead he got clearly a weaker
>> program. Particularly this B3 is really strange, where right after this
>> white catches everything with one move. Remi, what went wrong?
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Paweł
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Álvaro.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:58 AM, Xavier Combelle <
>> xavier.combe...@gmail.com > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> That's fantastic
>>
>>
>> I suppose crazystone will play with crazystone account, but what will be
>> her handle ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2016-05-16 9:50 GMT+02:00 Rémi Coulom < remi.cou...@free.fr > :
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am very happy to announce that Hajin Lee will play a live commented
>> game against Crazy Stone on Sunday, at 8PM Korean time. The game will take
>> place on KGS, and she will make live comments on her youtube channel.
>>
>> Haylee's youtube:
>> https://www.youtube.com/c/HayleesWorldofGoBaduk
>>
>> Rémi
>> ___
>> Computer-go mailing list
>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>> ___
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>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>>
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>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against CrazyStone

2016-05-22 Thread Álvaro Begué 
Disclaimer: I haven't actually implemented MCTS with NNs, but I have played
around with both techniques.

Would it make sense to artificially scale down the values before the
SoftMax is applied, so the probability distribution is not as concentrated,
and unlikely moves are not penalized as much?



On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Rémi Coulom <remi.cou...@free.fr> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Thanks for using Crazy Stone.
>
> I tried changes during the week, but nothing worked. So the version that
> played the game was almost identical to the commercial version.
>
> The search did not anticipate Black E8 after B3. It seems the NN makes the
> search too selective. I will investigate more.
>
> Rémi
>
> - Mail original -
> De: "Paweł Morawiecki" <pawel.morawie...@gmail.com>
> À: computer-go@computer-go.org
> Envoyé: Dimanche 22 Mai 2016 21:29:56
> Objet: Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game
> against  CrazyStone
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It's fun to hear the pro making comments as she goes. I had hoped for a
> better game, though.
> Any comments from the CS camp?
>
>
>
> I'm not from CrazyStone Team but a happy user of CS Deep Learning.
>
>
> I analyzed the game (30 000 playouts per move) with the version
> commercially available and it got everything right. I mean every move Hajin
> Lee questioned was also questioned by CrazyStone running on my PC. It
> includes:
>
>
> - questionable attachment in the first joseki they played
> - hane in upper-left corner
> - and finally a blunder at b3 (loosing move) and selection of this joseki
> as well
>
>
> Remi said that he's been working hard to improve CS over the last week,
> but it looks like something went wrong and instead he got clearly a weaker
> program. Particularly this B3 is really strange, where right after this
> white catches everything with one move. Remi, what went wrong?
>
>
> Cheers,
> Paweł
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
> Álvaro.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:58 AM, Xavier Combelle <
> xavier.combe...@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>
>
> That's fantastic
>
>
> I suppose crazystone will play with crazystone account, but what will be
> her handle ?
>
>
>
>
>
> 2016-05-16 9:50 GMT+02:00 Rémi Coulom < remi.cou...@free.fr > :
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I am very happy to announce that Hajin Lee will play a live commented game
> against Crazy Stone on Sunday, at 8PM Korean time. The game will take place
> on KGS, and she will make live comments on her youtube channel.
>
> Haylee's youtube:
> https://www.youtube.com/c/HayleesWorldofGoBaduk
>
> Rémi
> ___
> Computer-go mailing list
> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>
> ___
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> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>
>
> ___
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> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>
>
> ___
> Computer-go mailing list
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Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against CrazyStone

2016-05-22 Thread Rémi Coulom 
Hi,

Thanks for using Crazy Stone.

I tried changes during the week, but nothing worked. So the version that played 
the game was almost identical to the commercial version.

The search did not anticipate Black E8 after B3. It seems the NN makes the 
search too selective. I will investigate more.

Rémi

- Mail original -
De: "Paweł Morawiecki" <pawel.morawie...@gmail.com>
À: computer-go@computer-go.org
Envoyé: Dimanche 22 Mai 2016 21:29:56
Objet: Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against  
CrazyStone



Hi, 









It's fun to hear the pro making comments as she goes. I had hoped for a better 
game, though. 
Any comments from the CS camp? 



I'm not from CrazyStone Team but a happy user of CS Deep Learning. 


I analyzed the game (30 000 playouts per move) with the version commercially 
available and it got everything right. I mean every move Hajin Lee questioned 
was also questioned by CrazyStone running on my PC. It includes: 


- questionable attachment in the first joseki they played 
- hane in upper-left corner 
- and finally a blunder at b3 (loosing move) and selection of this joseki as 
well 


Remi said that he's been working hard to improve CS over the last week, but it 
looks like something went wrong and instead he got clearly a weaker program. 
Particularly this B3 is really strange, where right after this white catches 
everything with one move. Remi, what went wrong? 


Cheers, 
Paweł 













Thanks, 
Álvaro. 








On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:58 AM, Xavier Combelle < xavier.combe...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 



That's fantastic 


I suppose crazystone will play with crazystone account, but what will be her 
handle ? 





2016-05-16 9:50 GMT+02:00 Rémi Coulom < remi.cou...@free.fr > : 


Hi, 

I am very happy to announce that Hajin Lee will play a live commented game 
against Crazy Stone on Sunday, at 8PM Korean time. The game will take place on 
KGS, and she will make live comments on her youtube channel. 

Haylee's youtube: 
https://www.youtube.com/c/HayleesWorldofGoBaduk 

Rémi 
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Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against CrazyStone

2016-05-22 Thread Paweł Morawiecki 
Hi,


> It's fun to hear the pro making comments as she goes. I had hoped for a
> better game, though.
> Any comments from the CS camp?
>
> I'm not from CrazyStone Team but a happy user of CS Deep Learning.

I analyzed the game (30 000 playouts per move) with the version
commercially available and it got everything right. I mean every move Hajin
Lee questioned was also questioned by CrazyStone running on my PC. It
includes:

- questionable attachment in the first joseki they played
- hane in upper-left corner
- and finally a blunder at b3 (loosing move) and selection of this joseki
as well

Remi said that he's been working hard to improve CS over the last week, but
it looks like something went wrong and instead he got clearly a weaker
program. Particularly this B3 is really strange, where right after this
white catches everything with one move. Remi, what went wrong?

Cheers,
Paweł






> Thanks,
> Álvaro.
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:58 AM, Xavier Combelle <
> xavier.combe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> That's fantastic
>>
>> I suppose crazystone will play with crazystone account, but what will be
>> her handle ?
>>
>> 2016-05-16 9:50 GMT+02:00 Rémi Coulom :
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am very happy to announce that Hajin Lee will play a live commented
>>> game against Crazy Stone on Sunday, at 8PM Korean time. The game will take
>>> place on KGS, and she will make live comments on her youtube channel.
>>>
>>> Haylee's youtube:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/c/HayleesWorldofGoBaduk
>>>
>>> Rémi
>>> ___
>>> Computer-go mailing list
>>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against CrazyStone

2016-05-22 Thread Álvaro Begué 
I just saw the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdrV2H5zIOM

It's fun to hear the pro making comments as she goes. I had hoped for a
better game, though.

Any comments from the CS camp?

Thanks,
Álvaro.



On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:58 AM, Xavier Combelle 
wrote:

> That's fantastic
>
> I suppose crazystone will play with crazystone account, but what will be
> her handle ?
>
> 2016-05-16 9:50 GMT+02:00 Rémi Coulom :
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am very happy to announce that Hajin Lee will play a live commented
>> game against Crazy Stone on Sunday, at 8PM Korean time. The game will take
>> place on KGS, and she will make live comments on her youtube channel.
>>
>> Haylee's youtube:
>> https://www.youtube.com/c/HayleesWorldofGoBaduk
>>
>> Rémi
>> ___
>> Computer-go mailing list
>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>
>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against CrazyStone

2016-05-16 Thread Xavier Combelle 
That's fantastic

I suppose crazystone will play with crazystone account, but what will be
her handle ?

2016-05-16 9:50 GMT+02:00 Rémi Coulom :

> Hi,
>
> I am very happy to announce that Hajin Lee will play a live commented game
> against Crazy Stone on Sunday, at 8PM Korean time. The game will take place
> on KGS, and she will make live comments on her youtube channel.
>
> Haylee's youtube:
> https://www.youtube.com/c/HayleesWorldofGoBaduk
>
> Rémi
> ___
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Re: [Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against CrazyStone

2016-05-16 Thread Michael Markefka 
That is awesome! Looking forward to it!

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Rémi Coulom  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am very happy to announce that Hajin Lee will play a live commented game 
> against Crazy Stone on Sunday, at 8PM Korean time. The game will take place 
> on KGS, and she will make live comments on her youtube channel.
>
> Haylee's youtube:
> https://www.youtube.com/c/HayleesWorldofGoBaduk
>
> Rémi
> ___
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[Computer-go] Hajin Lee will play a live commented game against CrazyStone

2016-05-16 Thread Rémi Coulom 
Hi,

I am very happy to announce that Hajin Lee will play a live commented game 
against Crazy Stone on Sunday, at 8PM Korean time. The game will take place on 
KGS, and she will make live comments on her youtube channel.

Haylee's youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/c/HayleesWorldofGoBaduk

Rémi
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