Re: [Computer-go] On proper naming
The technique originated with backgammon players in the late 1970's, who would roll out positions manually. Ron Tiekert (Scrabble champion) also applied the technique to Scrabble, and I took that idea for Maven. It seemed like people were using the terms interchangeably. -Original Message- From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Darren Cook Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 6:16 AM To: computer-go@computer-go.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] On proper naming > but then it does not make sense to call that algorithm "rollout". > > In general: when introducing a new name, care should be taken that the > name describes properly what is going on. Speaking of which, why did people start calling them rollouts instead of playouts? Darren P.S. And don't get me started on "chains": at one point this seemed to be the standard term for a solidly connected set of stones, the basic unit of tactical search (as distinguished from a "group", which is made up of 1+ chains). But then somewhere along the way people started calling them strings. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] On proper naming
Hi Darren,
> > but then it does not make sense to call that algorithm "rollout".
> > ...
>
> Speaking of which, why did people start calling them rollouts
> instead of playouts?
it comes from the Backgammon scene, where for instance
rungames in the endgame were estimated by dozens or
hundreds of rollouts in the 1970's in the New York
scene.
Even further back, already Emanuel Lasker proposed
rollouts (in Backgammon) in his classic book "Brettspiele
der Voelker" from 1931. However, on p.239 Lasker does not
call it "rollouts" but "Versuche machen" ("making experiments").
To my knowledge, this is the oldest proposal to use
rollouts in 2-person game play.
**
In 1988, Bruce Abramson proposed Monte-Carlo runs in
2-person games without chance. However, he could his
approach "expected outcome". He even tried to apply
it to chess.
https://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/Bruce+Abramson
Ingo.
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@computer-go.org
http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] On proper naming
> but then it does not make sense to call that algorithm "rollout". > > In general: when introducing a new name, care should > be taken that the name describes properly what is going on. Speaking of which, why did people start calling them rollouts instead of playouts? Darren P.S. And don't get me started on "chains": at one point this seemed to be the standard term for a solidly connected set of stones, the basic unit of tactical search (as distinguished from a "group", which is made up of 1+ chains). But then somewhere along the way people started calling them strings. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
[Computer-go] On proper naming
Hi Dan, hi friends, > There is actually no randomness in the algorithm, just like AlphaZero's... but then it does not make sense to call that algorithm "rollout". ** In general: when introducing a new name, care should be taken that the name describes properly what is going on. * When Bernd Brügmann introduced the name "Monte Carlo Go" back in 1993, it did very properly describe the behavior of the algorithm. * When Rémi Coulom introduced the term "Monte Carlo Tree Search" back in 2005, this described very well - for more then ten years of development - what the algorithm was doing. (Although, over the years it became obvious that the rollouts had only a small degree of randomness in strong engines.) * When the AlphaGo team used the name "MCTS" to describe AlphaGo's search without rollouts but with NN-evaluations instead, things became problematic. AlphaGo still used the tree search part of MCTS, but no longer in combination with rollouts. * And when now someone (Dan) looks at alpha-beta with single-node extensions instead of iterative deepening, "rollouts" is a completely misleading term. I can not predict if Dan's approach will be successful. In any case, he should look for another proper name to describe it. Ingo. PS. One example from the history of astronomy: For many centuries seven planets were known (from Mercury to Saturn). And suddenly Galilei got a (little) telescope (in 1609/1910) and discoverd four new planets [sic!] around Jupiter. It took a while until these moons were not called planets any longer. And, when in 1801, asteroid Ceres was discovered and in the following years/decades a good handful of other asteroids, they first were called planets, later planetoids, and nowadays finally asteroids. So, there the are chances to repair wrong names - but it costs energy, and in the meantime confusion has happened. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
