Re: [Computer-go] Those were the days ...

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hi Detlef,

>I gave pure DCNN 54% a try against the 15 kyu version:)

did I get it right, that these 54 % were from normal 6-dan games
("normal" meaning small or no handicap)?

I think you need "Mueller High Handicap games" for feeding the CNN.
 
Cheers, Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Those were the days ...

[Detlef Schmicker]

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Hash: SHA1

Yes, the published

http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/2015-December/008324.html

I think, you can not win this with "normal" good moves :)

You have to exploit mfgo

Detlef

Am 29.12.2015 um 15:18 schrieb "Ingo Althöfer":
> Hi Detlef,
> 
>> I gave pure DCNN 54% a try against the 15 kyu version:)
> 
> did I get it right, that these 54 % were from normal 6-dan games 
> ("normal" meaning small or no handicap)?
> 
> I think you need "Mueller High Handicap games" for feeding the
> CNN.
> 
> Cheers, Ingo. ___ 
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> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> 
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Re: [Computer-go] Those were the days ...

[Detlef Schmicker]

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I gave pure DCNN 54% a try against the 15 kyu version:)

http://files.gokgs.com/games/2015/12/29/mfgo15kyu0-NiceGo19N.sgf

There was no pass handling, therefore filled an eye, without would
have been 133.5 loss or so :)

Detlef

Am 29.12.2015 um 11:20 schrieb "Ingo Althöfer":
> Hello all,
> 
> 
>> Martin understood computer go weaknesses, so he played to exploit
>> them.  A modern program not specifically tuned for those
>> weaknesses would have a much more difficult time.
> 
> Agreed. Concerning CNN bots (like darkfores3), a natural way would
> be to find some players of Martin's calibre who play hundreds of
> games against the old MFoG at handicap 29. These games might become
> the training set for the CNN.
> 
>> I released version 10 in 1997, so it might be more accurate to
>> play against version 10 rather than against version 12 at 12 kyu
>> level.  I probably still have a version 10 CD somewhere.
> 
> I also still have one, I think.
> 
> Anyway, as soon as a serious contender shows up, I am willing to
> allow a match environment that may - in case of disputes - be
> helpful for the bot.
> 
> Ingo.
> 
> PS. I want to see my 1,000 Euros finding their way to a pocket of
> a talented go programmer! 
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Re: [Computer-go] Those were the days ...

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hello all,


> Martin understood computer go weaknesses, so he played to exploit them.  A 
> modern program 
> not specifically tuned for those weaknesses would have a much more difficult 
> time.

Agreed. Concerning CNN bots (like darkfores3), a natural way would be to find
some players of Martin's calibre who play hundreds of games against the old MFoG
at handicap 29. These games might become the training set for the CNN.

> I released version 10 in 1997, so it might be more accurate to play against 
> version 10 
> rather than against version 12 at 12 kyu level.  I probably still have a 
> version 10 CD somewhere.

I also still have one, I think.

Anyway, as soon as a serious contender shows up, I am willing to allow
a match environment that may - in case of disputes - be helpful for the bot. 

Ingo.

PS. I want to see my 1,000 Euros finding their way to a pocket of a
talented go programmer!
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Re: [Computer-go] Those were the days ...

[uurtamo .]

That might be a stone or two difference for that software at best, no?

s.
On Dec 28, 2015 6:58 AM, "Michael Sué"  wrote:

> > Remember 1998: In the US Go Congress an exhibition match
> > took place: 5-dan Martin Mueller against Many Faces of Go.
> > Martin gave 29 handicap stones - and won "handily".
> > 29 stones - can you believe it?
>
> Martin Mueller, 5d, won an H-29 game against a 1998 go-program that ran
> run on a 1998 computer. So, in order to reproduce the playing strength of
> the old program and get a fair comparison it should again run on an old
> machine while the modern go-programs use today's hardware.
> - Michael.
>
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[Computer-go] Those were the days ...

[Ingo Althöfer]

Remember 1998: In the US Go Congress an exhibition match
took place: 5-dan Martin Mueller against Many Faces of Go.
Martin gave 29 handicap stones - and won "handily". 
29 stones - can you believe it?

ManyFaces was a top bot in those days. 
In the meantime computer go strength has increased a lot. However,
so far not a single go bot was able to repeat such an H-29 win
against the old ManyFaces (from 1998).

Four years ago I announced a "Handicap-29-Prize" for the
first bot that would achieve an H-29 win: 1,000 Euro for its programmer!

The programmers are still waiting in their closets. However, with help
of the new CNN evaluations a win might have come into reach.
I would even allow the Facebook Millionaires to go for the prize!
(Not sure though, if they really need the money ;-)

More details on the prize are online here:
http://www.althofer.de/handicap-29-prize.html

Cheers, Ingo.

PS. Instead of the traditional MFoG also the 12-kyu level of
MFoG 12 may be used as an opponent.
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Re: [Computer-go] Those were the days ...

[David Fotland]

The old program had a fixed search, so it wouldn’t get any stronger on faster 
hardware.

Martin understood computer go weaknesses, so he played to exploit them.  A 
modern program not specifically tuned for those weaknesses would have a much 
more difficult time.

I released version 10 in 1997, so it might be more accurate to play against 
version 10 rather than against version 12 at 12 kyu level.  I probably still 
have a version 10 CD somewhere.

David

> -Original Message-
> From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of
> "Ingo Althöfer"
> Sent: Monday, December 28, 2015 7:07 AM
> To: computer-go@computer-go.org
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Those were the days ...
> 
> Hello,
> 
> >  > Remember 1998: In the US Go Congress an exhibition match  > took
> > place: 5-dan Martin Mueller against Many Faces of Go.
> >  > Martin gave 29 handicap stones - and won "handily".
> >  > 29 stones - can you believe it?
> >
> > Martin Mueller, 5d, won an H-29 game against a 1998 go-program that
> > ran run on a 1998 computer. So, in order to reproduce the playing
> > strength of the old program and get a fair comparison it should again
> > run on an old machine while the modern go-programs use today's hardware.
> > - Michael.
> 
> I discussed your point in depth with David Fotland (father of MFoG).
> Back in 1998, MFoG had long thinking time (2 hours for all) in the game.
> In the current MFoG vesion the 12-kyu level plays quickly and is - according
> to David - comparable in strength with the 1998 long thinker.
> 
> Ingo.
> 
> 
> 
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