Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Go, scalability with time vs handicap
Christoph Birk wrote: I am sure that Daniel is wrong here ... 2 kyu difference is more like 80% likelyhood of win. That depends on strength. Between a 20 and 22 kyu, it is even lower. But in professional play Daniel should be right. Note that 2 steps means 2 stones handicap. It is clear that in professional play 2 handicap stones is overwhelming. Jacques. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Go, scalability with time vs handicap
It is clear that in professional play 2 handicap stones is overwhelming. Kageyama mentioned a student who had been playing him at a small handicap and winning. The student didn't think he could lose a game and nine stones. So they played a nine stone game; Kageyama kicked his butt and says the student wouldn't believe that he'd been playing at full strength in all the other games. The closest to this I actually saw was with a guy who'd been sandbagging his rating when he entered a local tournament--and I think the extra stones really hurt him, because he would normally have been harder to beat. Handicaps are tricky. A program playing with a big handicap might not be vulnerable to the same 'psychological' kind of mistake, like trying to defend all its stones... but a program capable of playing like a human might be. Forrest Curo - This email was sent using AIS WebMail. http://www.americanis.net/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Go, scalability with time vs handicap
On Sun, 22 Apr 2007, Sylvain Gelly wrote: For human players a difference of 2 kyu means that the winning ratio of the stronger player is almost 100%. Is it? Do you have some statistics? If so, that is interesting, because that means that neither MoGo nor GnuGo exploit well (comparing to humans) the handicap stones (see results of handicaps with settings which make them even at H0). I am sure that Daniel is wrong here ... 2 kyu difference is more like 80% likelyhood of win. Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Go, scalability with time vs handicap
Hello Daniel, With the addition of fuseki and joseki library will its rating increase? Especially a fuseki library. Will a fuseki library be consistent with its playing style? That is an interesting and not trivial question. The problem is that the player has somewhere to understand the opening not to destroy it after. The problem is not that MoGo is playing some strange moves, it is that it is happy with them :-). For human players a difference of 2 kyu means that the winning ratio of the stronger player is almost 100%. Is it? Do you have some statistics? If so, that is interesting, because that means that neither MoGo nor GnuGo exploit well (comparing to humans) the handicap stones (see results of handicaps with settings which make them even at H0). My feeling is that it's going to take more than double of speed for MoGo to reach 3kyu. Actually my goal was not to argue about how to reach some rating, but what happens when giving more time against a fixed player with handicap. Also, I feel like the KGS rating is not well adapted to bots rating, because of the inertia. Bots are playing so many games a week that once they reach one stable rating, the rating will change very slowly. Also, strange results happen in MoGo vs human games: white almost always wins! That means the stronger player, no matter the handicap, manages to win the game. That is quite asymetrical. BTW it was one of the reason I launch those experiments, expecting asymetrical results when playing black or white with handicap. This did not appears in those experiments. Sylvain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Go, scalability with time vs handicap
Le dimanche 22 avril 2007 22:26, Sylvain Gelly a écrit : Hello Daniel, Le dimanche 22 avril 2007 21:26, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : For human players a difference of 2 kyu means that the winning ratio of the stronger player is almost 100%. Is it? Do you have some statistics? If so, that is interesting, because that means that neither MoGo nor GnuGo exploit well (comparing to humans) the handicap stones (see results of handicaps with settings which make them even at H0). For kyu players 2 handicap does not mean very much. For dan players the difference becomes more significant. Nice stats on even game http://gemma.ujf.cas.cz/~cieply/GO/statev.html For pro i have been told that Lee Chang Ho is 2 points stronger than one of his favorite partner but has more than 70% victory, and he considers improving his game play by 2 points a workload for one life :) Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
