[computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-12-06 Thread Dave Dyer
>As any incomplete search, it can blunder, but why more than any other >incomplete search? Not worse, just not a magic bullet. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/

[computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-12-06 Thread Jacques Basaldúa
Dave Dyer wrote: In cases where the good moves are the "obvious" ones, you've found them anyway. Ok. Here I agree. In other cases, you prune them away. You are not really pruning, just postponing. Of course you may overlook moves of genius, who doesn't? But if your probabilities are co

Re: [computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-12-05 Thread Álvaro Begué
On Dec 5, 2007 9:39 AM, Dave Dyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The problem with this is that below a few ply, the probabilities are > all effectively zero. All you're really doing is enshrining the > prior probabilities used to sort the first few levels. Why would they be zero? floating-point

[computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-12-05 Thread Dave Dyer
The problem with this is that below a few ply, the probabilities are all effectively zero. All you're really doing is enshrining the prior probabilities used to sort the first few levels. In cases where the good moves are the "obvious" ones, you've found them anyway. In other cases, you prune

[computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-12-05 Thread Dave Dyer
The problem with this is that below a few ply, the probabilities are all effectively zero. All you're really doing is enshrining the prior probabilities used to sort the first few levels. In cases where the good moves are the "obvious" ones, you've found them anyway. In other cases, you prune

Re: [computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-11-24 Thread Peter Kollarik
just a link : http://ticktockbraintalk.blogspot.com/2007/11/brain-clock-temporal-resolution-g-power.html ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/

Re: [computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-11-23 Thread Don Dailey
Raymond Wold wrote: >> The general rule (in my opinion) is that playing strength will require a >> huge amount of "power" because that's what A.I. is. This in no way implies >> that it should not be "efficient" or that it should foolishly squander >> resources (as an internal combustion engin

Re: [computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-11-23 Thread Raymond Wold
> The general rule (in my opinion) is that playing strength will require a huge > amount of "power" because that's what A.I. is. This in no way implies that > it should not be "efficient" or that it should foolishly squander resources > (as an internal combustion engine does.) Instead it shou

Re: [computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-11-23 Thread Don Dailey
I meant to expound a little on this: > (Not to mention that some algorithms are more scalable that others, I want > to talk about that in a minute.) In humans we often try to measure "intelligence" with tests and we call them IQ tests. It has been said that IQ tests actually only measure yo

Re: [computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-11-23 Thread Don Dailey
Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. wrote: > Don, > > I think it is tenuous to predict, much less emphatically assert, that > just because the evidence is linear at the lower scale, it remains so > at higher scales. This is done all the time in science!Many things in science are considered facts that haven

Re: [computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-11-22 Thread Jim O'Flaherty, Jr.
Seo, All I described was the scientific method plus simple probability theory combined with using intuition to explore unknown unknowns creatively. For a layman's explanation into this world, see the works by Talib of "Fooled by Randomness" and "The Black Swan". Not sure about your analogy

Re: [computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-11-22 Thread Sanghyeon Seo
2007/11/23, Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Don, > > I think it is tenuous to predict, much less emphatically assert, that > just because the evidence is linear at the lower scale, it remains so at > higher scales. While it is reasonable to assume, it is not certain. I > see your point

Re: [computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-11-22 Thread Jim O'Flaherty, Jr.
Don, I think it is tenuous to predict, much less emphatically assert, that just because the evidence is linear at the lower scale, it remains so at higher scales. While it is reasonable to assume, it is not certain. I see your point that at this time, your theory about it applying to larger

Re: [computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-11-22 Thread Magnus Persson
My experience from doing search only with Valkyria, is that Go is not different to Chess in the sense that each extra ply really makae a difference. Improving evaluation almost always means that search gets deeper in UCT-type programs. Monte-Carlo simulation + knowledge gives a better signa

Re: [computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-11-22 Thread Raymond Wold
Don Dailey wrote: So I must give up on this. I know if I do the plot again someone will say, "it only applies to depths we can currently test." "Surely it will flatten out next year when the new processors come." I cannot answer to those arguments when no evidence is presented to back it

Re: [computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-11-22 Thread Don Dailey
Hi Dave, You are doing it.No matter what evidence is presented, people will find a way to say it doesn't exist.As I mentioned earlier, the argument was that didn't apply to chess except for the first 4 or 5 ply - then when that didn't happen they expanded it to the first 6 or 7 and to thi

[computer-go] Re: The global search myth

2007-11-22 Thread Dave Dyer
I agree with your exposition of search as it applies to chess, but I think there is a qualitative difference in Go. In chess, evaluators can see clear progress, in the form of material balance and statically determined positional factors, so each additional ply gives you more opportunity to see