[computer-go] Turing test

2007-04-05 Thread dhillismail
I don't play go, so apply whatever discount seems appropriate.
 
Go is a zero sum game - except when humans are involved. People are clearly 
dealing with a multi-criteria optimization task. Losses can be moral victories; 
wins can be humiliating; style and tradition matter. Virtually every KGS 
tournament has had a case where the author of a bot has said I don't want my 
bot to win this game under these circumstances!
 
Go, as played by most people, can *almost* be described algorithmically. There 
are variants of go that can be described algorithmically. And people can be 
persuaded to play that way, albeit with much grumbling and quibbling. This can 
lead some to assert that anything else doesn't exist. (Due to the influence of 
Internet servers, maybe some day that will be true.) I won't generalize to 
everyone, but my own work is focused on a mathematical abstraction of the game. 
When I'm ignoring 3000 years of tradition, should I still call the game I'm 
modeling go? 
 
When a bot racks up a lot of wins against human players, through what they see 
as gimmicks like winning by 1/2 point, you can explain that 2 ways. In a sense, 
the humans are irrational, they play with pride and try to salvage their 
dignity or grandstand: they are making emotional mistakes. Or... the bot is 
maximizing a single criteria (winning percentage) at the expense of everything 
else. It gets an artificially high rating by playing churlishly.
 
The friend, who first suckered me into trying my hand at computer go, once told 
me: a game of go is like a conversation. I think that has meaning on many 
levels. His immediate point was that playing a computer program felt like 
arguing with a chat-bot.
 
Perhaps, at the current level of play, it doesn't matter. But when one of the 
engines reaches shodan at 19x19 (not so far away, I think) , I wonder if it 
should try to play the way people do. Or if maybe we should choose another name 
for the game it's playing that doesn't have so much history.
 
Do strong chess programs pass turing tests? Should they?
 
- Dave Hillis

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Re: [computer-go] Turing test

2007-04-05 Thread Ray Tayek

At 02:47 PM 4/5/2007, you wrote:
I don't play go, so apply whatever discount seems appropriate 
But when one of the engines reaches shodan at 19x19 (not so far 
away, I think)  ...


probably still *very* far away. the best programs are rated at about 
10-kyu. 10 stones is a *long* way. it's non-linear


thanks

---
vice-chair http://ocjug.org/


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