Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Pardon my cynicism but I think Germany just guaranteed that other countries will develop self driving cars first and Germany will end up adapting someone elses solution after they’ve test driven it on _their_ citizens. Which may be their intent... All of the self-driving car “knowledge" will

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 2017-11-01 at 11:48, adrian.b.rob...@gmail.com wrote: > Robert Jasiek writes: > >>> [..] >> >> In Germany, an ethics commission has written ethical guidelines for >> self-driving cars with also the rule to always prefer avoiding casualties of >> human beings. > > Did

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Robert Jasiek writes: > On 30.10.2017 19:22, Pierce T. Wetter III wrote: >> this car and this child > > In Germany, an ethics commission has written ethical guidelines for > self-driving cars with also the rule to always prefer avoiding > casualties of human beings. Did they

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

There is even a decent site for those situations: http://moralmachine.mit.edu/ (select language and then click "start judging") 2017-10-31 7:55 GMT+01:00 Petri Pitkanen : > and we can allways come up with bizarre situation like casualties insidet > the vehicle vs

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Actually, you can try impersonating the AI yourself: http://moralmachine.mit.edu/ On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 5:16 PM Petri Pitkanen wrote: > and we can allways come up with bizarre situation like casualties insidet > the vehicle vs casualties to persoons outside the

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

and we can allways come up with bizarre situation like casualties insidet the vehicle vs casualties to persoons outside the vehicle. I am pretty sure this will a long discussion with huge research gaps on ethics as well as in engineering 2017-10-31 7:00 GMT+02:00 Robert Jasiek :

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 30.10.2017 19:22, Pierce T. Wetter III wrote: this car and this child In Germany, an ethics commission has written ethical guidelines for self-driving cars with also the rule to always prefer avoiding casualties of human beings. -- robert jasiek

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

I am not sure how people are designing self-driving cars, but if it were up to me, it would be very explicitly about maximizing expected utility. A neural network can be trained to estimate the expected sum of future rewards, usually with some exponential future discount. Actually, that's

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

I would argue that if I was an engineer for a hypothetical autonomous car manufacturer, that it would be critically important to keep a running circular buffer of all the inputs over time for the car. Sort of like how existing cars have Dash Cams that continuously record to flash, but only keep

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

In your hypothetical scenario, if the car can give you as much debugging information as you suggest (100% tree is there, 95% child is there), you can actually figure out what's happening. The only other piece of information you need is the configured utility values for the possible outcomes. Say

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Unlike humans, who have these pesky things called rights, we can abuse our computer programs to deduce why they made decisions. I can see a future where that has to happen. From my experience in trying to best the stock market with an algorithm I can tell you that you have to be able to explain

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Petri and Tom are correct; "intuition" and "subconscious" and "unobserved thought" are names for the same idea.  AlphaGo Zero's neural network, regardless of how well it simulates human neurons or not, cannot be described as being similar to what we think of as the logical, rule-driven part of

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

intuition is handy word for truly automated information processing i.e subconscious. And everything that train conscious decission making trains also the subconscious/intuiton. Intuiton nothing mythical just automation achieved via training 2017-10-29 5:08 GMT+02:00 Thomas Rohde

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 2017-10-28 at 16:36, Robert Jasiek wrote: > IMO, intuition does not exist; it is nothing but an excuse for not > understanding subconscious or currently unobservable thinking yet. Can we > speak of human subconscious thinking, please? Uhm, I always thought the short word

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 28.10.2017 11:13, Petri Pitkanen wrote: Exactly verbalized rules lose to pure analysis power. (I think with "verbalised" you mean "codified in writing", with "pure analysis power" you mean "volume of reading, calculation, sampling or NN processing".) Rules are not meant to win or lose

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Exactly verbalized rules lose to pure analysis power. Though much chess intuiton is coded into evaluation function. Buiding analysis trees to alfa-beta pruning BUT in quite differently human woudl do it, just basic idea/ideas are there. Human intuition is trained with endless repetition. Like IM

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

By way of comparison. It would be ludicrous to ask a world champion chess player to explain their strategy in a "programmable" way. it would certainly result in a player much worse than the best computer player, if it were to be coded up, even if you spent 40 years decoding intuition, etc, and

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 27.10.2017 13:58, Petri Pitkanen wrote: doubt that your theory is any better than some competing ones. For some specialised topics, it is evident that my theory is better or belongs to the few applicable theories (often by other amateur-player researchers) worth considering. For a broad

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

You playing strength is anecdotal evidence. And quite often going through just systematic way your thinking is more valuable than the actual end product. As it programs you subconscious decision making. You said that it is not part of your decision making but that is unlikely to be true. People do

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

It's related to this line of thinking by Douglas Hoffstadter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_(software) Namaste, Jim O'Flaherty Founder/CEO Precision Location Intelligence, Inc. • Irving, TX, USA 469-358-0633 <4693580633> •

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On Behalf Of Robert Jasiek Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 10:17 AM To: computer-go@computer-go.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright? On 26.10.2017 13:52, Brian Sheppard via Computer-go wrote: > MCTS is the glue that binds incompatible rules. This is, howeve

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

what are semantic genetic algorithm ? to my knowledge genetic algorithm lead to poor result except as a metaheuristic in optimisation problem Le 26/10/2017 à 14:40, Jim O'Flaherty a écrit : > When I get time to spend dozens of hours on computer go again, I plan > to play in Robert's area with

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 26.10.2017 08:52, Petri Pitkanen wrote: Unfortunately there is no proof that you principles work better than those form eighties. No computer-go proof. There is evidence in the form of my playing strength: with the principles "from the eighties", I got to circa 1 kyu. L+D reading

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 26.10.2017 13:52, Brian Sheppard via Computer-go wrote: MCTS is the glue that binds incompatible rules. This is, however, not what I mean. Conflicting principles (call them rules if you like) must be dissolved by higher order principles. Only when all conflicts are dissolved should MCTS

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

When I get time to spend dozens of hours on computer go again, I plan to play in Robert's area with semantic genetic algorithms. I am an Architect Software Engineer. Robert's work will allow me better than starting entirely from random in much the same way AlphaGo bootstrapped from the 100K of

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Combelle Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 1:50 AM To: computer-go@computer-go.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright? >> The reason why (b) had became unpopular is because there is no go >> theory precise enough to implement it as an algorithm > > T

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Unfortunately there is no proof that you principles work better than those form eighties. Nor there is any agreement that your pronciples form any improvement over the old ones. Yes you are a far better player than me and shows that you are - way better at reading - have hugely better go

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

>> The reason why (b) had became unpopular is because there is no go theory >> precise enough to implement it as an algorithm > > There is quite some theory of the 95% principle kind which might be > implemented as approximation. E.g. "Usually, defend your weak > important group." can be

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

> What do you want evaluate the software for ? corner cases which never > have happen in a real game ? If the purpose of this mailing list is a community to work out how to make a 19x19 go program that can beat any human, then AlphaGo has finished the job, and we can shut it down. But this list

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Le 24/10/2017 à 22:41, Robert Jasiek a écrit : > On 24.10.2017 20:19, Xavier Combelle wrote: >> totally unrelated > > No, because a) software must also be evaluated and can by go theory and What do you want evaluate the software for ? corner cases which never have happen in a real game ? The

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

We're suffering under the burden of so much success from other methods that ​it's hard for many people to imagine that anything else is worth considering. Of course this is not true. Tromp's enumerations are particularly enjoyable for me. Human-built decision trees have been so unsuccessful,

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 24.10.2017 20:19, Xavier Combelle wrote: totally unrelated No, because a) software must also be evaluated and can by go theory and b) software can be built on exact go theory. That currently (b) is unpopular does not mean unrelated. -- robert jasiek

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Could we PLEASE take this off-list? If you don't like someone, or what they post, filter them. If you think someone should be banned, present your case to the list owner(s). Darren ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

"In the current time, computer-go discussion and research has a very high percentage of people discussing the side of mainly programs and programming but I belong to the very low percentage of people discussing mainly go-theoretical aspects of computer-go. With a higher percentage of the latter,

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 24.10.2017 16:45, Xavier Combelle wrote: I don't understand what you mean by go-theorical aspects. Go theory is an ambiguous term and means everything from informal ("Starting with a standard corner move can't be wrong.") via principle ("Usually, defend a weak important group.") to formal

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Le 24/10/2017 à 14:35, Robert Jasiek a écrit : > On 24.10.2017 11:45, David Ongaro wrote: >> very seldom saw a discussion with Robert lead to anything. > > (You seem to only refer to discussion on this mailing list.) > > Apart from this being a discussion about one particular person, let me >

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

David Ongaro and Xavier Combelle, I am respectfully requesting you stop inappropriately discussing and addressing the person Robert Jasiek in your posts. He has not acted in any way inappropriate on this list (I fully read every post). Therefore he hasn't done anything which needs to be addressed

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 24.10.2017 11:45, David Ongaro wrote: very seldom saw a discussion with Robert lead to anything. (You seem to only refer to discussion on this mailing list.) Apart from this being a discussion about one particular person, let me ignore this for a moment: In the current time, computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 2017-10-23 at 23:56, Thomas Rohde  wrote: > On 2017-10-23 at 19:15, Xavier Combelle wrote: > > > Hi Robert Jasiek, > >  > > you might have a delusional way to see the game of go and life, >  > this is quite an insult Do you consider Robert's style of discussion "kind"? I for my part do not.

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 23.10.2017 19:15, Xavier Combelle wrote: [personal attack deleted] Did you already encounter a real game with "disturbing life kos or anti-sekis" and especially "ladders (...) beyond 250 moves" ? If not how do you believe that Alphago would learn how to manage such situations. Dave Dyer

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 2017-10-23 at 19:15, Xavier Combelle wrote: > Hi Robert Jasiek, > > you might have a delusional way to see the game of go and life, this is quite an insult, IMO, and I’d prefer not to read such personal attacks in this list. What about staying on-topic? > but

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

If you wanted to do research on a specific joseki to see if AG0 found weaknesses or explored alternatives, especially in games past day 3 (when it began besting AGM), it would be quite interesting to see, through that explicit filter, what kinds of things emerged around that specific joseki. You

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Hi Robert Jasiek, you might have a delusional way to see the game of go and life, but I would love that you would not pollute my mailbox with such a delusional vision. I'm certain that a lot of person of this mailing list and other forums share my view. To sum up, I would be pleased and I'm

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

If the AG got better by playing against itself rather than training on previous good players then I do not thing training data is that important. Perhaps it is but google has shown that actually u dont need it. Just loads of processing will do the trick. 2017-10-23 15:05 GMT+03:00 Jim

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

On 23.10.2017 14:05, Jim O'Flaherty wrote: Couldn't they be useful as part of a set of training data for newly trained engines and networks? All the millions of games would be very useful for many purposes. E.g., I want to know whether the reconstructed knowledge includes such basic things

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

No, they are too few games for that. On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Jim O'Flaherty wrote: > Couldn't they be useful as part of a set of training data for newly > trained engines and networks? > > On Oct 23, 2017 2:34 AM, "Petri Pitkanen"

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Couldn't they be useful as part of a set of training data for newly trained engines and networks? On Oct 23, 2017 2:34 AM, "Petri Pitkanen" wrote: > They are free to use in any attribution. Game score is a reflection of > historical fact and hence not copyrightable.

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

"Petri Pitkanen" wrot: > They are free to use in any attribution. Game score is a reflection of > historical fact and hence not copyrightable. "reflection of historical fact" concerns games that were played in public. Over the decades, there were several

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

They are free to use in any attribution. Game score is a reflection of historical fact and hence not copyrightable. Dunno what use them are to anyone though. Petri 2017-10-23 2:29 GMT+03:00 Lucas Baker : > Hi Robert, > > The AlphaGo Zero games are free to use with proper

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

2017-10-23 0:29 GMT+01:00 Lucas Baker : > Hi Robert, > > The AlphaGo Zero games are free to use with proper attribution, so please > use them as you like for commentaries as long as you credit DeepMind. > Yes, Lucas is right. We hope you enjoy AlphaGo Zero games. :) Best

Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Hi Robert, The AlphaGo Zero games are free to use with proper attribution, so please use them as you like for commentaries as long as you credit DeepMind. Best, Lucas Baker On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 3:59 PM Robert Jasiek wrote: > AlphaGo Zero games are available as zipped SGF