Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Study. Nakade is difficult
Le mercredi 30 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit : I must not understand the problem. My program has no trouble with nakade unless you are talking about some special case position.My program immediately places the stone on the magic square to protect it's 2 eyes.I can't believe mogo doesn't do this, it would be very weak if it didn't. Worth to see, http://senseis.xmp.net/?NakadeExample3 This example comes from Modern Famous Games (Gendai no Meikyoku), vol. 6: Go Seigen, II p. 59. In the game, both players, Go Seigen and Fujisawa Kuranosuke misread this corner. (4 points nakade can become 2 points nakade) Also this incredible capture 16 stones, but still dead :) http://senseis.xmp.net/?BiggestKnownEyeSpaceForWhichThereIsANakade Alain. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Study. Nakade is difficult
Good position. I think this illustrates my point. In this case we are not talking about whether a program is capable of seeing a nakade position, but instead a situation very complicated to the extent that even very strong players missed it. For instance I would not use this position to claim humans couldn't understand nakade. I could construct a very complex chess position with a checkmate at the end but so deep a typical chess program cannot find it, but I would not use that to claim the program was incapable of seeing checkmate. - Don Alain Baeckeroot wrote: Le mercredi 30 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit : I must not understand the problem. My program has no trouble with nakade unless you are talking about some special case position.My program immediately places the stone on the magic square to protect it's 2 eyes.I can't believe mogo doesn't do this, it would be very weak if it didn't. Worth to see, http://senseis.xmp.net/?NakadeExample3 This example comes from Modern Famous Games (Gendai no Meikyoku), vol. 6: Go Seigen, II p. 59. In the game, both players, Go Seigen and Fujisawa Kuranosuke misread this corner. (4 points nakade can become 2 points nakade) Also this incredible capture 16 stones, but still dead :) http://senseis.xmp.net/?BiggestKnownEyeSpaceForWhichThereIsANakade Alain. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Study. Nakade is difficult
That particular position is indeed complex, but there are many simpler variations which are not at all difficult to construct. 20kyu human players eventually learn to recognize when their 10 kyu opponents trap them via the simpler positions. 1dan amateur players play still subtler versions. Against human players, programs can reliably expect to see variations of these nakade plays in most games - especially as humans discover their achilles' heel. Yahoo is intermittently doing something odd when it quotes previous replies. sigh Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] “Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.” Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] - Original Message From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:14:24 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Study. Nakade is difficult Good position. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Study. Nakade is difficult
Earlier Don Dailey asked how much of a difference it would make, if UCT programs understood nakade plays. I'll throw out a ballpark figure: if the current UCT programs understood nakade as well as I do ( which is not terribly well), that would make four handicap stones difference on a 19x19 board. That would be what, 95% win rate on an even game? How many elo points is that worth? I leave it to better players than myself to improve this estimate. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Study. Nakade is difficult
terry mcintyre wrote: That particular position is indeed complex, but there are many simpler variations which are not at all difficult to construct. 20kyu human players eventually learn to recognize when their 10 kyu opponents trap them via the simpler positions. 1dan amateur players play still subtler versions. Against human players, programs can reliably expect to see variations of these nakade plays in most games - especially as humans discover their achilles' heel. Of course, and this is as it should be. And likewise, the success of computers will be based on the degree to which they are able to successful attack the human players weaknesses. It will always be the case that computers will do some things much better than their equally ranked human opponents and will do some things much worse than their equally ranked human opponents. The contest will be about which one happens to succeed in any particular game. If you are able to muster additional processors or faster machinery or more efficient algorithms, their weaknesses will diminishing and their strengths will continue to improve. It's no secret that computers have weaknesses we recognize. - Don Yahoo is intermittently doing something odd when it quotes previous replies. sigh Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] “Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.” Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] - Original Message From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:14:24 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Study. Nakade is difficult Good position. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 19x19 Study. Nakade is difficult
terry mcintyre wrote: Earlier Don Dailey asked how much of a difference it would make, if UCT programs understood nakade plays. But actually they already understand nakade play. It was a misconception that they don't, and I at first believed it because I didn't know for sure what nakade was until I looked it up. I'll throw out a ballpark figure: if the current UCT programs understood nakade as well as I do ( which is not terribly well), that would make four handicap stones difference on a 19x19 board. That would be what, 95% win rate on an even game? How many elo points is that worth? I leave it to better players than myself to improve this estimate. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
