Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
I was reading the Wikipedia and thought to see what their article on RAID might contribute to our recent discussion. It reads... RAID is not a good alternative to backing up data. Data may become damaged or destroyed without harm to the drive(s) on which it is stored. For example, part of the data may be overwritten by a system malfunction; a file may be damaged or deleted by user error or malice and not noticed for days or weeks; and of course the entire array is at risk of catastrophes such as theft, flood, and fire. Which is pretty close to what I was trying to get across. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
No. When we suggested RAIDs had other uses - I mentioned for speed - you argued they had no reason to be used for that either. You can't squirm out of this one. But then, I guess this is actually an apology.? :) On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was reading the Wikipedia and thought to see what their article on RAID might contribute to our recent discussion. It reads... RAID is not a good alternative to backing up data. Data may become damaged or destroyed without harm to the drive(s) on which it is stored. For example, part of the data may be overwritten by a system malfunction; a file may be damaged or deleted by user error or malice and not noticed for days or weeks; and of course the entire array is at risk of catastrophes such as theft, flood, and fire. Which is pretty close to what I was trying to get across. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Speed and downtime is the main reason to use RAID...at least in the areas I've used it. On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was reading the Wikipedia and thought to see what their article on RAID might contribute to our recent discussion. It reads... RAID is not a good alternative to backing up data. Data may become damaged or destroyed without harm to the drive(s) on which it is stored. For example, part of the data may be overwritten by a system malfunction; a file may be damaged or deleted by user error or malice and not noticed for days or weeks; and of course the entire array is at risk of catastrophes such as theft, flood, and fire. Which is pretty close to what I was trying to get across. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
No. When we suggested RAIDs had other uses - I mentioned for speed - you argued they had no reason to be used for that either. Why drag that discredited notion back in? The world has not slipped back into the previous century. No savvy person would use RAID today. Let's not go there again. You can't squirm out of this one. But then, I guess this is actually an apology.? :) I'm addressing the original question (see subject line). RAID is not a backup strategy. And don't try to do a Palin on me. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Gotta admire Tom for treating his opinion as fact. Maybe he's charlie gibson in hiding.. On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No. When we suggested RAIDs had other uses - I mentioned for speed - you argued they had no reason to be used for that either. Why drag that discredited notion back in? The world has not slipped back into the previous century. No savvy person would use RAID today. Let's not go there again. You can't squirm out of this one. But then, I guess this is actually an apology.? :) I'm addressing the original question (see subject line). RAID is not a backup strategy. And don't try to do a Palin on me. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Yet so many of today's motherboards, which have gone to SATA drive attachments, come with RAID built-in. At 04:34 PM 9/14/2008, Tom Piwowar wrote: Why drag that discredited notion back in? The world has not slipped back into the previous century. No savvy person would use RAID today. Let's not go there again. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
They come with floppy drive controllers too...not sure that's a good measure hehe Mike On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Fred Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yet so many of today's motherboards, which have gone to SATA drive attachments, come with RAID built-in. At 04:34 PM 9/14/2008, Tom Piwowar wrote: Why drag that discredited notion back in? The world has not slipped back into the previous century. No savvy person would use RAID today. Let's not go there again. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Did you read any of the references that John so thoughtfully provided you? No, because I don't use MySql. I can do native SQL replication with SQL Server 2005, which I have to use, but there is still that pesky issue of vendors not wanting to give away their hardware for free. Funny that. I can see that you're stuck in the consultant's my-one-solution-fits-all template, and that you really just don't get it, so I'll stop bothering with you now. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
I'm putting the argument in the parameters you set. As to if you are acting or not, I won't guess. I'm still waiting for the solution that improves on the old RAID technology..now we sit and wait for you to tell us which HD's you were talking about when you claimed anyone with a failed drive must have bought it at Toys R Us. On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have Tom buy your HD's, he found a place where they don't fail like when you buy them at Toys R Us. Is acting dumb an acceptable way to win an argument? I think not. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
You do realize that you don't have to buy a dedicated NAS, but can build one yourself out of any old computer that can run Linux. Same for a MySQL server. Yes, of course. That however, is not a mistake I plan on repeating. I have about 5 servers I built myself out of Intel OEM parts, built to spec. They work fine for the most part, but they tend to be quirky. One failed suddenly earlier this year and one freezes every couple weeks or so. The worst part is that *I* am the warranty and dealing with Intel tech support is some bizarre, hell-like punishment. Never again. When I buy a Dell server, I know that I have their engineering expertise in designing the product and, most importantly, they are the warranty. I suppose if you have a staff filled with minions who have the spare time to deal with the problems from old or custom hardware, then this could be a workable solution. I don't have that kind of time nor the staff. Please try and keep some perspective on what it's like to run a small enterprise. I say enterprise and not business for a reason. A small business, say 20 people or so, can get by with POP email or an SBS server. We can't. We have the needs of a larger company, but on a much smaller scale and without *any* of the resources. You do what you can do with what you have. After all, you want to protect against not just disk drive failure, but also computer failure. Of course, but that is a luxury we can't afford. When you are poor(er), you learn to tolerate risk at a much higher level and deal with the consequences, knowing the risks. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:11 AM, Jeff Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After all, you want to protect against not just disk drive failure, but also computer failure. Of course, but that is a luxury we can't afford. When you are poor(er), you learn to tolerate risk at a much higher level and deal with the consequences, knowing the risks. That is the point that most people are dealing with today, and that Tom keeps emphasizing. If the likelihood of a computer failure is close to the likelihood of a disk drive failure, how do you minimize the risk? It used to be that disk drives failed ten or a hundred times more often than computer systems. But now they are roughly equivalent - hard to determine which is more likely in general. So spending even $200 on a RAID controller and the same on extra disks just for RAID, is probably not the best way to minimize risk to the small business today. Small businesses are better served by off loading risk among multiple computers, not relying on just one computer with a RAID controller. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
That is the point that most people are dealing with today, and that Tom keeps emphasizing. If the likelihood of a computer failure is close to the likelihood of a disk drive failure, how do you minimize the risk? That's the thing. In my experience, the system will fail many, many times less often than will a hard drive. All Tom has are throertetical numbers from drive mfrs to back up his claim. My real world experience shows a very different result. And you minimize the risk with backups, at least at the most basic level. It used to be that disk drives failed ten or a hundred times more often than computer systems. But now they are roughly equivalent - hard to determine which is more likely in general. No, they aren't. Hard drives win the failure contest. Hands down. So spending even $200 on a RAID controller and the same on extra disks just for RAID, is probably not the best way to minimize risk to the small business today. Who keeps extra drives around? I have 5 year warranties on my Dell servers and they have the parts. If I keep a system past the warranty, it's a non-mission critical system and there are scads of spare parts available. Again, this is balancing risk vs. cost vs. priorities. It's not a simple equation and every business is different, not to mention, every system. But you keep arguing with me as if I think replicated servers are a bad thing. I've made it very clear that they aren't, in fact they are quite valuable and I wish I had them. But, they are also very, very costly compared to a RAID array. What will give me a middle ground is a data replication system that will also have bare-metal images of servers that can be restored to a virtual machine if needed, with real-time data snapshots for critical systems. That still is $$$, but nothing close to the cost aand complexity of a replicated server environment. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
The best scheme for backups I have heard of is something that I have heard with any type of document you want to archive, Multiple copies in multiple places. The more copies and the more places you keep those copies the better off you are. With the costs of HD's it is so much easier to keep two to three externals and make backups and rotate them. I worked hardware support over a decade ago for a company and one of the biggest complaints we had when some ones system went south was I want to restore my backups. OK where are your tapes? They would get their tapes and we would try a restore to only find out their tapes were blank or corrupted. OK where are your other sets of backups (We encouraged a rotating set of backup tapes) If they had been diligent in keeping backups and had rotated the tapes like told we could usually get them back up and running with only a day or two of data lost. Still not a bad philosophy. Stewart At 11:07 AM 9/9/2008, you wrote: That is the point that most people are dealing with today, and that Tom keeps emphasizing. If the likelihood of a computer failure is close to the likelihood of a disk drive failure, how do you minimize the risk? That's the thing. In my experience, the system will fail many, many times less often than will a hard drive. All Tom has are throertetical numbers from drive mfrs to back up his claim. My real world experience shows a very different result. And you minimize the risk with backups, at least at the most basic level. It used to be that disk drives failed ten or a hundred times more often than computer systems. But now they are roughly equivalent - hard to determine which is more likely in general. No, they aren't. Hard drives win the failure contest. Hands down. So spending even $200 on a RAID controller and the same on extra disks just for RAID, is probably not the best way to minimize risk to the small business today. Who keeps extra drives around? I have 5 year warranties on my Dell servers and they have the parts. If I keep a system past the warranty, it's a non-mission critical system and there are scads of spare parts available. Again, this is balancing risk vs. cost vs. priorities. It's not a simple equation and every business is different, not to mention, every system. But you keep arguing with me as if I think replicated servers are a bad thing. I've made it very clear that they aren't, in fact they are quite valuable and I wish I had them. But, they are also very, very costly compared to a RAID array. What will give me a middle ground is a data replication system that will also have bare-metal images of servers that can be restored to a virtual machine if needed, with real-time data snapshots for critical systems. That still is $$$, but nothing close to the cost aand complexity of a replicated server environment. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
The best scheme for backups I have heard of is something that I have heard with any type of document you want to archive, Multiple copies in multiple places. The more copies and the more places you keep those copies the better off you are. The only problem with that is finding the newest copy. To simplify that I rotate drives using a fixed scheme. I either number the drives or label then with the day they are to be rotated. They would get their tapes and we would try a restore to only find out their tapes were blank or corrupted. OK where are your other sets of backups (We encouraged a rotating set of backup tapes) If they had been diligent in keeping backups and had rotated the tapes like told we could usually get them back up and running with only a day or two of data lost. Even better to test your backups periodically. You don't want to discover that your backup stopped running and you have been going through the motions of rotating drives with old data or drives with no data. I have seen it! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
That's the thing. In my experience, the system will fail many, many times less often than will a hard drive. All Tom has are throertetical numbers from drive mfrs to back up his claim. My real world experience shows a very different result. And you minimize the risk with backups, at least at the most basic level. I'm seeing power supply, motherboard, and memory failures at about the same rate as I'm seeing drive failures. I cited the manufacturers' specs for the benefit of our perpetual doubters who will discount my vast personal experience. Of course our perpetual doubters will believe whatever they want to believe. No, they aren't. Hard drives win the failure contest. Hands down. No so. That is why I said to stop buying your drives from Toys R Us. ...you keep arguing with me as if I think replicated servers are a bad thing. I've made it very clear that they aren't, in fact they are quite valuable and I wish I had them. But, they are also very, very costly compared to a RAID array. Again, you are working with out of date ideas. Hardware costs are way down and performance is way up. Dedicated applicances can often lower costs further, decrease maintenance, and increase reliability. For example, I'm running one server here using s $69 linux-based appliance and 2 $100 drives and it is positively a joy. We are trying to drag you into the 21st century. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Small businesses are better served by off loading risk among multiple computers, not relying on just one computer with a RAID controller. Thank you! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Ok instead of talking down to everyone as you tend to do, tell us at long last where you get your drives then? On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No so. That is why I said to stop buying your drives from Toys R Us. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
I'm seeing power supply, motherboard, and memory failures at about the same rate as I'm seeing drive failures. I would suggest, then, that you stop buying your hardware from Toys R Us. At least upgrade to FAO Schwartz. Again, you are working with out of date ideas. Hardware costs are way down and performance is way up. Dedicated applicances can often lower costs further, decrease maintenance, and increase reliability. For example, I'm running one server here using s $69 linux-based appliance and 2 $100 drives and it is positively a joy. Too funny. Now you know why the big boys won't let you play with them. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Too funny. Now you know why the big boys won't let you play with them. I don't need the ego boost. My job is not to waste money. You would have me spend $10,000 to serve a 5-person office? That would be an example of bad judgement. That $69 server was bought on a lark, with the expectation that it would not be very capable. The surprise was that it works as well as my AppleShare server and my Small Business Server, but it is so much easier to manage. So go call yourself a big boy. I know how to do something right and you don't. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
What is the $69.00 Linux appliance you are using? I'd like to get one! Cisco Linksys NSLU2, which was recently discontinued. Amazon is still selling them for $44. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
I realize you love to call people names. Yes, we all know you are superior. I bow down to your all knowing all seeing knowlege. I'm sorry I'm so thick, too stupid to understand even though you deign to use such simple language. It must be a horror having to deal with such poor jesters in your domain. Feel better about yourself now? Maybe you'd like to call people more names? I hope others will follow my example to keep that bloated ego full. On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 3:49 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok instead of talking down to everyone as you tend to do, tell us at long last where you get your drives then? No secret. These are normally sourced drives. I'm wondering where you find the junk you buy. Drive reliability is way up and you did not get the news. I'm not talking down. Not my fault that some people are thick. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
You would have me spend $10,000 to serve a 5-person office? That would be an example of bad judgement. No, that would be stupid, but I also wouldn't advise someone to get a SOHO device for a 250 person network. Talk about bad judgment. I would look at hosted solutions for a 5 person office and not waste their money on expensive server hardware. That $69 server was bought on a lark, with the expectation that it would not be very capable. The surprise was that it works as well as my AppleShare server and my Small Business Server, but it is so much easier to manage. So go call yourself a big boy. I know how to do something right and you don't. Your problem is one of a lack of vision. You see Google doing something and therefore, everyone should be able to do it. Never mind the cost and complexity, if you don't do it, then you're a poopy-head, and a stinky one at that. Your Linksys example is prime example of that very limited perspective. Big boys look at the complete picture and recommend a workable solution with budgets and resources in mind, rather than fake it and condescend to those not implementing the latest thing you read about in magazine. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Big boys look at the complete picture and recommend a workable solution with budgets and resources in mind, rather than fake it and condescend to those not implementing the latest thing you read about in magazine. You really are badly wedged into '90s tech. Did you read any of the references that John so thoughtfully provided you? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Now this is good...no smart ass toys r us remark anywhere. I agree RAID controllers can cause a very bad day...as can failed HD's. Can we agree that while MTBF has gone up, that hard drives are not mythical machines that never fail? A 25 user client base needing access to data 24/7. The client wants minimum downtime. What would you build this client so you don't get a call about a HD failure and his 25 users sitting twittling their thumbs? I'm open to any solution that works. Thanks. Mike On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 11:15 AM, John DeCarlo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mike, You should look at real-world examples sometime. In one lab where I spend a bit of time, there are about 80 computer server systems. Five years ago, all of them had RAID, and there would be a hard drive failure out of the 300 or so hard drives at least once a month. Pull it out, drop a new one in. About three times a year, a RAID controller would go bad - disassemble everything, put in the spare identical RAID controller, be back and running in a day. Every year, maybe twice a year, there would be a RAID controller failure and no more replacements. Then you rebuild everything from backup onto new hardware. Today, there are some RAID on some of the older servers, but no one buys a system with RAID any more. Not worth the expense of having to buy multiple, identical RAID controllers at the same time. And, the current best practices are often to use shared storage on the network - NAS, SAN, etc. Some of the NAS have software-based RAID mirroring to allow for a drive failure without losing data for even a minute. But what the admins are really looking at is having the same data replicated on multiple NAS. You can do a lot of that with a good SAN, but interoperability issues and expense can limit you there. Also, hardly any server runs its own local database. There are dedicated database machines, some with Oracle, some with MySQL, and they are all replicated to other machines on the network. Does this help you any? On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 6:59 PM, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm still waiting for the solution that improves on the old RAID technology..now we sit and wait for -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Can you elaborate? I get that a HD failure will make back ups on it mute, but I am now backing up onto an external drive. Is the idea that if I also back up on the HD, I will then have 2 copies in case one or the other drives fail? You are doing the right thing. Your backup should be on at least 1 external drive. I use 3 in rotation and always keep 1 of them off premises. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
But what the admins are really looking at is having the same data replicated on multiple NAS. You can do a lot of that with a good SAN, but interoperability issues and expense can limit you there. Also, hardly any server runs its own local database. There are dedicated database machines, some with Oracle, some with MySQL, and they are all replicated to other machines on the network. John--What you are talking about is great, if you are for-profit company (or an extremely large non-profit like yours) with far greater resources at your disposal than many companies have. You have almost 3 times the servers in your one lab than I do on our entire network. I have a 5 TB NAS, but only one. The least expensive SAN solution that would have met our needs was triple the cost, so our databases run locally, which works out fine. Server and SAN replication is a wonderful thing and I wish I could do that, but comes at a cost that is astronomical compared to RAID. Tom reminds me of the yacht club president sniffing over port and brie about the terrible conditions that he is forced to endure on the water with all the riff-raff commercial fishing boats about. Why can't they be more like him? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Jeff Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a 5 TB NAS, but only one. You do realize that you don't have to buy a dedicated NAS, but can build one yourself out of any old computer that can run Linux. Same for a MySQL server. For a small business, I would generally recommend using computers they would otherwise discard and set up two, replicated MySQL servers for a reliable database that won't stop if one computer or one disk drive fails. You could do the same thing with two older computers that still work reliably, setting up replicated NAS. After all, you want to protect against not just disk drive failure, but also computer failure. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
For a small business, I would generally recommend using computers they would otherwise discard and set up two, replicated MySQL servers for a reliable database that won't stop if one computer or one disk drive fails. Thank you. Some of our geezers are still acting like the hard drive was the weakest component in the system, but this is no longer the case. Today any one of the components is equally likely to go. So replication is your best bet. However, it won't help you with soft errors that are far more likely than hard errors. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Maybe what I'm really asking is what does the back up on the computer actually do and what and how does it prevent nasty things from happening? That depends on how you have your backup set up. It is therefore a good idea to occasionally pretend that your hard drive has failed and see what your backups can do for you. Sometimes the answer is not a happy one. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Have Tom buy your HD's, he found a place where they don't fail like when you buy them at Toys R Us. Is acting dumb an acceptable way to win an argument? I think not. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Tom, Can you elaborate? I get that a HD failure will make back ups on it mute, but I am now backing up onto an external drive. Is the idea that if I also back up on the HD, I will then have 2 copies in case one or the other drives fail? No idea what RAID is, and almost afraid to ask or want to know if I need to know about this, yet another thing to ponder and maybe spend money on. Thanks, Randall On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe what I'm really asking is what does the back up on the computer actually do and what and how does it prevent nasty things from happening? That depends on how you have your backup set up. It is therefore a good idea to occasionally pretend that your hard drive has failed and see what your backups can do for you. Sometimes the answer is not a happy one. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
I meant to say ...that a HD failure will make back ups on it MOOT... On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 7:50 PM, Ranbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom, Can you elaborate? I get that a HD failure will make back ups on it mute, but I am now backing up onto an external drive. Is the idea that if I also back up on the HD, I will then have 2 copies in case one or the other drives fail? No idea what RAID is, and almost afraid to ask or want to know if I need to know about this, yet another thing to ponder and maybe spend money on. Thanks, Randall On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe what I'm really asking is what does the back up on the computer actually do and what and how does it prevent nasty things from happening? That depends on how you have your backup set up. It is therefore a good idea to occasionally pretend that your hard drive has failed and see what your backups can do for you. Sometimes the answer is not a happy one. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
If you don't know what RAID is I'd stay away from it. 99.9% of home users don't need it...the other .1% are hobbyists most likely. RAID is for small businesses who can't afford downtime and enterprise level. Mike On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Ranbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom, Can you elaborate? I get that a HD failure will make back ups on it mute, but I am now backing up onto an external drive. Is the idea that if I also back up on the HD, I will then have 2 copies in case one or the other drives fail? No idea what RAID is, and almost afraid to ask or want to know if I need to know about this, yet another thing to ponder and maybe spend money on. Thanks, Randall On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe what I'm really asking is what does the back up on the computer actually do and what and how does it prevent nasty things from happening? That depends on how you have your backup set up. It is therefore a good idea to occasionally pretend that your hard drive has failed and see what your backups can do for you. Sometimes the answer is not a happy one. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
I have upgraded my laptop to a 120gb hdd and used an upgrade kit from apricorn which comes with an external usb case for the old drive and software to do the image and move that to the new drive ...for most cases you buy the drive, stick it in the case, and run the software and you're in business. It came as a bundle with the new drive from newegg for a very good price. In my case I had to take out the old drive first and stick it in the external case and do it from there ...that is ONLY for thinkpads for some reason. It is detailed on their website. Now, you ask why I told you this? Because, the old drive (which was running fine) 40gb is great for a backup. The apricorn software included also does incremental backups and imaging so you can use it as a backup solution afterwards. It has rescue features so you can make the image drive bootable if you must. That's one thing. Another is Karen Ware (google it) ...she has a FREE incremental backup app you can get off her site ...so no excuses for not backing up properly, eh? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
I have used something similar, I use Trueimage plus an external HD adapter to clone my system HD for upgrades. Will have to change to a new adapter as the present laptop has sata HD's. This is on sale right now at Newegg plus a rebate. Stewart At 09:34 PM 9/7/2008, you wrote: I have upgraded my laptop to a 120gb hdd and used an upgrade kit from apricorn which comes with an external usb case for the old drive and software to do the image and move that to the new drive ...for most cases you buy the drive, stick it in the case, and run the software and you're in business. It came as a bundle with the new drive from newegg for a very good price. In my case I had to take out the old drive first and stick it in the external case and do it from there ...that is ONLY for thinkpads for some reason. It is detailed on their website. Now, you ask why I told you this? Because, the old drive (which was running fine) 40gb is great for a backup. The apricorn software included also does incremental backups and imaging so you can use it as a backup solution afterwards. It has rescue features so you can make the image drive bootable if you must. That's one thing. Another is Karen Ware (google it) ...she has a FREE incremental backup app you can get off her site ...so no excuses for not backing up properly, eh? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Back ups on computer if backing up on external driv
Mike--Don't sweat it. Tom is the grasshopper to the rest of us ants. When, not if, our drives fail, the hive will reward us for our forward thinking and employing fault tolerance for the hardware. Tom, OTOH, will be sitting outside and crying into his thorax, cursing the exaggerated claims of theoretical failures by marketing departments. We won't even talk about his not understanding the meaning of the word mean, at least as far as it goes to statistics. -Original Message- I'm putting the argument in the parameters you set. As to if you are acting or not, I won't guess. I'm still waiting for the solution that improves on the old RAID technology..now we sit and wait for you to tell us which HD's you were talking about when you claimed anyone with a failed drive must have bought it at Toys R Us. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
