Re: [CGUYS] Cable vs DSL ( was Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop)
Unfortunately, that relies on security built-in to cable modems. Some people have figured out how to put their cable modems into something called promiscuous mode (ethernet cards support this as well), which allows them to receive any packet being sent on the local wire (usually a neighborhood). Good point. I should not have missed that. The cable company's shared-line architecture is inherently less secure because it pools everyone's traffic on the same line. There is therefore the potential for a neighbor to siphon off all the local traffic and inspect it. DSL and FiOS don't pool the traffic until it is outside the local loops so neighbors can't get to it. Of course this is the point where George Bush siphons off the traffic to build his computerized dossier of your every transaction. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Cable vs DSL ( was Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop)
Again this is in theory. I'm suppose to worry about Dave, my neighbor down the street whom I borrowed hedge trimmers from last summer becoming angry and learning to program cable modems? With the DOCSIS based cable modems standard now security is as good as on DSL lines. On top of that, even the most rudimentary users know about routers now. Worrying about one of my neighbors taking time out from raising his kids, working...washing the car on the weekends or watching the game to download and learn hacking tools to reprogram his modem and spy on me is about as likely as worrying martians are watching me from their spacecraft. http://tinyurl.com/35km7m An interesting article on cable modem security. Note part 5.0 which addresses the issue of promiscuous mode specifically. Impossible? Course not. Unlikely...in spades. Mike On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 8:16 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately, that relies on security built-in to cable modems. Some people have figured out how to put their cable modems into something called promiscuous mode (ethernet cards support this as well), which allows them to receive any packet being sent on the local wire (usually a neighborhood). Good point. I should not have missed that. The cable company's shared-line architecture is inherently less secure because it pools everyone's traffic on the same line. There is therefore the potential for a neighbor to siphon off all the local traffic and inspect it. DSL and FiOS don't pool the traffic until it is outside the local loops so neighbors can't get to it. Of course this is the point where George Bush siphons off the traffic to build his computerized dossier of your every transaction. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Cable vs DSL ( was Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop)
All this cable/DSL talk got me wondering: Is DSL any more secure/safer than cable or vis-a-versa? Tom Piwowar wrote: I never knock the competition. All I can say is that in Verizon territory, you pay for 3 mbps, you get 3 mbps, or a reasonable facsimile. That has been my experience with Verizon DSL. I'm puzzled why Mike is so anti science. Knowing how something really works means that you can figure out how it will work, even under conditions that have not yet been experienced. With Mike's observational approach the best one can ever say is So far go good. Observation brought us astrology, science brought us astronomy. Etc., etc. I agree with Mike that certain companies tend to underperform and that such compalies should be avoided until there is evidence of improvement. But that has nothing to do with the choice of DSL vs cable. Such a company would be a poor performer regardless of the technology they employed. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Cable vs DSL ( was Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop)
I don't know how far anecdotal evidence can resolve this issue but here is my experience. I was a verizon DSL subscriber from the beginning in the Washington DC area. I was paying for 3MB, Verizon stated that they could only give me 1.5MB. and my usual experience ( from the Verizon speed test site was .4 to .8 MB, I rarely got the 1.5 that I was promised and paying for. After many conversations with various Verizon Tech Support people, I am highly aware that that DSL speed is highly dependent on distance from the local central office. Therefore, other people may have a different average speed from their DSL When Verizon informed that they were not likely to get higher speed FIOS to my area in the next 2 years, I switched to Cox Cable. Cox promised by 5MB and I now actually get from 7MB to 11MB at all times. (using the same speed test site.) The speed difference is incredible. I will add that I found the cost to be slightly less for Cox than Verizon if you use the bundled service of each Cox Cable service and system reliability is as good or better. This report is based on five years of Verizon and four months of Cox Cable. Maybe after five years of Cox I might have a different opinion. On 3/15/08, Stephen Brownfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All this cable/DSL talk got me wondering: Is DSL any more secure/safer than cable or vis-a-versa? Tom Piwowar wrote: I never knock the competition. All I can say is that in Verizon territory, you pay for 3 mbps, you get 3 mbps, or a reasonable facsimile. That has been my experience with Verizon DSL. I'm puzzled why Mike is so anti science. Knowing how something really works means that you can figure out how it will work, even under conditions that have not yet been experienced. With Mike's observational approach the best one can ever say is So far go good. Observation brought us astrology, science brought us astronomy. Etc., etc. I agree with Mike that certain companies tend to underperform and that such compalies should be avoided until there is evidence of improvement. But that has nothing to do with the choice of DSL vs cable. Such a company would be a poor performer regardless of the technology they employed. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Cable vs DSL ( was Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop)
Logical security? I don't see any basis for any difference. Physical security? No matter what's in the cable (copper twisted pair, copper coax, or fiber), there would be little difference, i.e. if it's strung on poles, a falling tree would part it, but physical strength would make some difference. Putting the wire/cable underground gives it much better physical security. Fred Holmes At 07:29 PM 3/15/2008, Stephen Brownfield wrote: All this cable/DSL talk got me wondering: Is DSL any more secure/safer than cable or vis-a-versa? Tom Piwowar wrote: I never knock the competition. All I can say is that in Verizon territory, you pay for 3 mbps, you get 3 mbps, or a reasonable facsimile. That has been my experience with Verizon DSL. I'm puzzled why Mike is so anti science. Knowing how something really works means that you can figure out how it will work, even under conditions that have not yet been experienced. With Mike's observational approach the best one can ever say is So far go good. Observation brought us astrology, science brought us astronomy. Etc., etc. I agree with Mike that certain companies tend to underperform and that such compalies should be avoided until there is evidence of improvement. But that has nothing to do with the choice of DSL vs cable. Such a company would be a poor performer regardless of the technology they employed. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Cable vs DSL ( was Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop)
All this cable/DSL talk got me wondering: Is DSL any more secure/safer than cable or vis-a-versa? Depends on how it is connected. Old-style provisioning, that did not use a router/firewall, had you sharing your home network with 500 neighbors. So you could print stuff out on your neighbor's network connected printer, etc. If you have a router/firewall it should be as secure. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Cable vs DSL ( was Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop)
Cable systems are built on ethernet technology, this is where the idea that you share your connection with the rest of the neighborhood, you are basically on the same network. Most if not all current cable modems are built to filter out packets not meant for your IP therefore the old story of opening up my computer and seeing your neighbors shared drives doesn't happen anymore. Security has been built into the modems hardware so both technologies are pretty much equal in security. Mike On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 5:19 PM, Fred Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Logical security? I don't see any basis for any difference. Physical security? No matter what's in the cable (copper twisted pair, copper coax, or fiber), there would be little difference, i.e. if it's strung on poles, a falling tree would part it, but physical strength would make some difference. Putting the wire/cable underground gives it much better physical security. Fred Holmes At 07:29 PM 3/15/2008, Stephen Brownfield wrote: All this cable/DSL talk got me wondering: Is DSL any more secure/safer than cable or vis-a-versa? Tom Piwowar wrote: I never knock the competition. All I can say is that in Verizon territory, you pay for 3 mbps, you get 3 mbps, or a reasonable facsimile. That has been my experience with Verizon DSL. I'm puzzled why Mike is so anti science. Knowing how something really works means that you can figure out how it will work, even under conditions that have not yet been experienced. With Mike's observational approach the best one can ever say is So far go good. Observation brought us astrology, science brought us astronomy. Etc., etc. I agree with Mike that certain companies tend to underperform and that such compalies should be avoided until there is evidence of improvement. But that has nothing to do with the choice of DSL vs cable. Such a company would be a poor performer regardless of the technology they employed. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Cable vs DSL ( was Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop)
After many conversations with various Verizon Tech Support people, I am highly aware that that DSL speed is highly dependent on distance from the local central office. Therefore, other people may have a different average speed from their DSL We tend to forget that DSL is an amazing trick to get high speeds on very old POTS circuits that were never intended to carry anything over 2KHz. The technology was delivered with a clear statement that it would work for many people, but there were a bunch of things that would degrade or defeat it. If your particular situation hits one of those roadblocks you are SOL. I think most the the DSL horror stories occur in marginal situations. The provide is taking a risk when they do not tell the customer to go away. It is hard to tell a customer to go away. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Cable vs DSL ( was Verizon DSL Service Dry Loop)
On Sat, 15 Mar 2008, mike wrote: Cable systems are built on ethernet technology, this is where the idea that you share your connection with the rest of the neighborhood, you are basically on the same network. Most if not all current cable modems are built to filter out packets not meant for your IP therefore the old story of opening up my computer and seeing your neighbors shared drives doesn't happen anymore. Security has been built into the modems hardware so both technologies are pretty much equal in security. Unfortunately, that relies on security built-in to cable modems. Some people have figured out how to put their cable modems into something called promiscuous mode (ethernet cards support this as well), which allows them to receive any packet being sent on the local wire (usually a neighborhood). This nice presentation describes some of the details (e.q. it's easier to snoop on traffic from the internet to your neighbor than vice versa): http://sfs.poly.edu/presentations/boris_cable%20modem%20sniff.ppt On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 5:19 PM, Fred Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Logical security? I don't see any basis for any difference. Physical security? No matter what's in the cable (copper twisted pair, copper coax, or fiber), there would be little difference, i.e. if it's strung on poles, a falling tree would part it, but physical strength would make some difference. Putting the wire/cable underground gives it much better physical security. Fred Holmes At 07:29 PM 3/15/2008, Stephen Brownfield wrote: All this cable/DSL talk got me wondering: Is DSL any more secure/safer than cable or vis-a-versa? -- Vicky Staubly http://www.steeds.com/vicky/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
