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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Kinship terms and discussion
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
From: Marshall and Endemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. HELP: Translating the Babel Text
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. i-Mutation
From: Yann Kiraly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: i-Mutation
From: Rene Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: i-Mutation
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: i-Mutation
From: Yann Kiraly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: i-Mutation
From: Yann Kiraly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: i-Mutation
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: Simon Richard Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Rejected posting to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: "L-Soft list server at Brown University (1.8d)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 04:00:52 GMT
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Kinship terms and discussion
Yeah, it's me, sorry about my unicode..
you know PD, if ya cant see unicode, your in trouble..:P
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:49:56 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:11:59 -0600, Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:26:33 +0200, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > And monomorphemically: "thigh" vs "thy".
>
> The monomorphy of "thy" is disputable, though. Certainly there are no
> _productive_ morphemes, but it's the same possessive -y added to "my"
> and the same second-person "th" in "thou" and "thine".
Hm... I think I see the point.
> [It's a bit pedantic maybe, but the rule usually given by people who want
> to say that /D/ is not a phoneme is that it seems to occur instead of /T/
> at certain morpheme boundaries.)
Does that mean that "bathe" is made up of two morphemes? Since for me,
I have "bathe" [bEjD] contrasthing with "bath" [bA:T] and if the rule
that selects [D] vs [T] is related to morphemes, I suppose that means
that that the -e is a verb-producing morpheme, or something?
(Similarly with breath/breathe, I suppose, and possibly cloth/clothe.)
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 04:07:44 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:15:34 -0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 2:47 PM
>Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke ?
>
>
>
>>ahh, the old hyloid bone debate. :)
>
>The name of that old bone is hyoid, not hyloid.
>
>
>>besides, "tarzan" isn't monosyllabic. :)
>
>That may depend on how one understands "monosyllabic." Some
>polysyllabic words are composed of two (or more) free form
>monosyllabic morphemes. E.g., "oilcloth" is composed of two such
>morphemes. "Tarzan" is a similar word, a compound of "tar," white,
>and "zan," skin. That is how Mr. Burroughs defined it, if memory
>serves. I guess it would depend on how much of a hiatus there was
>between the two parts of the word when spoken.
How much of what? There's no pronunciation of the word gap, though in
certain languages, certain circumstancial sound changes may depend on the
word boundaries. But 'oil cloth' and 'oilcloth' are the same.
There are writing systems that don't seperate words at all (e.g. Japanese or
Latin written by the Romans).
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:50:27 +1300
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
I can agree with that. But the key detail in most animals with a complex
social structure seems to be the body-brain ratio, and they've got the
erectus brain with its concomitant post-chimp social and technical
developments, with a chimpanzee-size body.
Ergo, their language had the potential to be quite complex - the key detail in
homo sapiens' complex society and complexifying technology, appears to be the
breakdown of the barriers between the different sorts of problem solving, and
the development of symbols.
Wesley Parish
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:40, Chris Bates wrote:
> I didn't say they would have no language, or only language at the same
> level as chimps... I'm just not convinced that they would speak a language
> as complex as ours. :) I was thinking somewhere between the two extremes.
> But we'll probably never know unless they happen to have been advanced
> enough to leave written records for us, and we're clever enough to decipher
> them, which is doubtful since even if such records existed you usually need
> some knowledge of a related language to decipher a writing system like
> that. I know they needed such knowledge to figure out the Egyptian
> hieroglyphs.
>
> > From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: 2004/10/29 Fri AM 08:38:44 GMT
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
> >
> > On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:14, Chris Bates wrote:
> > > Rodlox wrote:
> > > > according to recent archeological discoveries, it is now known that
> > > > Hobbits existed in Indonesia...so, which language do you think they'd
> > > > have known? :)
> > >
> > > The common tongue of course! No... they did find some simple tools with
> > > them and are suggested that despite their brain size (grapefruit sized
> > > apparently) they did use tools. But language is another matter, and I'm
> > > not sure language on our level is possible with a brain the size of a
> > > monkey's.
> >
> > This is inaccurate. The brain size is approx. 380 cc, chimp-sized.
> > However, it is the brain of a homo erectus derivation. Which implies it
> > has had several hundred thousand years worth of homo erectus tool use and
> > the subsequent brain development. Not forgetting, the need to manage
> > vastly more complex social structures than would have been common to
> > australopithecines.
> >
> > And they were three feet high, give or take a few inches. At slighly
> > less than six feet we have a brain about 1300 cc. I would estimate that
> > with a brain about a third of our size, and a body about half, they had
> > enough spare capacity to manage language more complex than the
> > chimpanzees have been shown capable of mastering - consider that a chimp
> > needs that 380+ cc to manage society, and life jumping through trees, and
> > so forth, and the Hobbits no longer had to consider jumping through trees
> > ... that would've freed up about 60 cc, at least, for language use.
> >
> > > Some language perhaps, but I wouldn't expect anything as
> > > complex as a natural language that's spoken by homo sapiens if I
> > > travelled back in time. :)
> >
> > --
> > Wesley Parish
> > * * *
> > Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
> > * * *
> > Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
> > You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
> > Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
> > I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Email provided by http://www.ntlhome.com/
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:49:53 +1300
From: Marshall and Endemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
on 30/10/04 9:07 PM, J. 'Mach' Wust at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> But 'oil cloth' and 'oilcloth' are the same.
Not the way I say them - as with black bird as opposed to blackbird, the two
words contain more or less equal stress and duration. In the compound word
the second syllable has significantly less stress and shorter duration than
the first. The meanings are different too - 'oilcloth', a kind of linen (or
cotton?) impregnated with oil - 'oil cloth' a cloth for cleaning up oil.
Or maybe that's only Kiwi usage?
Chris
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.vaiaata.com
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:01:05 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
Marshall and Endemann wrote:
>on 30/10/04 9:07 PM, J. 'Mach' Wust at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
>
>>But 'oil cloth' and 'oilcloth' are the same.
>>
>>
>
>Not the way I say them - as with black bird as opposed to blackbird, the two
>words contain more or less equal stress and duration. In the compound word
>the second syllable has significantly less stress and shorter duration than
>the first. The meanings are different too - 'oilcloth', a kind of linen (or
>cotton?) impregnated with oil - 'oil cloth' a cloth for cleaning up oil.
>
>Or maybe that's only Kiwi usage?
>
>
No, English too. 'a black bird' is different to 'a blackbird'.
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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 05:25:25 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:01:05 +0100, Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Marshall and Endemann wrote:
>
>>on 30/10/04 9:07 PM, J. 'Mach' Wust at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>>>But 'oil cloth' and 'oilcloth' are the same.
>>
>>Not the way I say them - as with black bird as opposed to blackbird, the
>>two words contain more or less equal stress and duration. In the compound
>>word the second syllable has significantly less stress and shorter
>>duration than the first. The meanings are different too - 'oilcloth', a
>>kind of linen (or cotton?) impregnated with oil - 'oil cloth' a cloth for
>>cleaning up oil.
>>
>>Or maybe that's only Kiwi usage?
>
>No, English too. 'a black bird' is different to 'a blackbird'.
Then I was mistaken. However, the difference is in the stress patterns (and
in the phonetic changes they trigger), not in some kind of 'hiat' between them.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:34:31 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
Hey all!
Last night I thought when I ever get the hang to translate
the Babel Text into Ayeri, there are certainly problems as
for concepts. The Bible says people were making bricks out
of clay, burned them and used mortar. But as far as I
imagined the Ayeri up to now, they're rather using stone,
raffia (right word for "Bast"?) and wood as the main
building materials. There is much stone and even more wood
available where I thought my conpeople to live. Using clay
bricks is not that widely spread. So should I rather
translate "Let's gather stones and wood" etc. because this
method belongs more tightly to the concept of building a
house and is more commonly known? That would seem logical
to me. Anyway, when Luther translated the Bible, AFAIK he
also had to translate the *sense* rather than the *words*
sometimes. "If I took the wings of dawn and stayed at the
utmost sea ..." comes to my mind[1] ... Or do you think in
this case I should better make up a bit of a native story
and translate this one as an example? The first page of
JRRT's _Hobbit_ would be suitable as well for my purposes,
but it uses a striking amount of adjectives.
Thanks for help,
Carsten
[1] Psalm 139:9. AFAIK Luther
had to find an own poetic language when translating the
Psalms, at least that's what we learnt in school. We were
told that Luther's translation of the Psalms are sometimes
rather reproductions (word for "Nachdichtung"?) than direct
translations, this Psalm was quoted as an example. I
assumed the verse quoted above was translated into English
the same way like its German equivalent, "Und nähme ich die
Flügel der Morgenröte und bliebe am äußersten
Meer ..." (or similar).
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 08:17:29 -0400
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:34:31 +0200, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I rather
>translate "Let's gather stones and wood" etc. because this
>method belongs more tightly to the concept of building a
>house and is more commonly known? That would seem logical
>to me.
I agree - I think that's the right approach. It is certainly one of the guiding
principles of translation relays.
- Jeffrey
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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:39:03 +0100
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
--- Jeffrey Henning skrzypszy:
> > I rather translate "Let's gather stones and wood" etc. because
> > this method belongs more tightly to the concept of building a
> > house and is more commonly known? That would seem logical to me.
>
> I agree - I think that's the right approach. It is certainly one of
> the guiding principles of translation relays.
I, on the other hand, have my doubts. The Babel text is a piece of
history (or mythology, if you like) taking place on a more or less
established moment in our world's history, on a fixed place. Usually,
a translator does not transplant the stuff he's working on into a
completely different time and place. In other words, gathering stones
and wood instead of clay and mortar is the same to me as writing:
"And Moses climbed the Empire State Building, and yelled to the
crowd: ..." Even if certain objects or concepts are alien to your
(con)culture, your language may very well have a word for it; like
Dutch, which has a word for mockingbird, even though they don't live
here. Very much does depend on the taste of the translator and the
purpose of the translation, though.
In relays it's slightly different, but that is partly because some of
us work with alien concultures which are not supposed to have ever
had any form of contact with our culture. Besides, translating not
only linguistically but also culturally makes it a lot more
interesting...
All this reminds me of an old Dutch translation of the "Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy", in which London is substituted with Amsterdam,
Arthur Dent is named "Hugo Veld", Ford Prefect "Amro Bank", and
Zaphod Beeblebrox... I think "Zefod Bijsterbuil" or something. Yack!
Jan
=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room
with a mosquito."
Relay 10: http://steen.free.fr/relay10/
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger -
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:06:34 +0100
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
--- Henrik Theiling skrzypszy:
> If you like, take a look at my web-page with a comparison of IPA,
> X-Sampa and CXS:
>
> http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
And excellent page! However, if I may make one small suggestion: add
a font tag with a few Unicode fonts. Like: <FONT FACE="Code2000,
Thryomanes, Gentium, Lucida Sans Unicode, Arial Unicode, etc.">
Because frankly, I only got it working after copying the source and
adding such a tag myself.
Otherwise, a really great page.
Jan
=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room
with a mosquito."
Relay 10: http://steen.free.fr/relay10/
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger -
all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 09:26:01 -0400
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
Hello?! I know that my use of "/.../" was not correctly, but could I please
have an answer on my actual questions? Replace "/.../" with "[...]". If you
want YA(E)PT, please make a splitoff.
Thanks you BPJ for your approach to ignore my mistake and telling your
opinion to my question!
Yours, a little annoyed,
Carsten
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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 09:27:33 -0400
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 09:26:01 -0400, Carsten Becker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hello?! I know
EDIT: by now
> that my use of "/.../" was not correctly,
EDIT: *correct
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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 09:55:09 -0400
From: Yann Kiraly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: i-Mutation
Does anybody have an Idea into what sound an i could mutate (a->ä,o->ö,u-
>ü,e([e]very->ë(German [E]nde))? I am constructing a language that uses
these mutations for grammatical infelction.
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:18:08 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Then I was mistaken. However, the difference is in the stress
patterns (and
in the phonetic changes they trigger), not in some kind of 'hiat'
between them.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
--- End forwarded message ---
I live in the white house in the next block.
I live in the White House.
Different stresses.
I used the word "hiatus" in the hopes of using a word Rodlox knew.
The technical term is, I believe, "juncture." It means the various
boundary features which demarcate grammatical units. Word division
is indicated by pitch, stress, length and a bunch of other devices.
"that stuff" and "that's tough" are the same in a phonological
transcription, but phonetic modifications demarcate the two: the
strong articulation of the /s/ and the unaspirated /t/ in "stuff" and
the opposite in "...s tough." Of course, the differences may vanish
in rapid speech.
I was responding to Rodlox' statement that "Tarzan" was not
monosyllabic. I know it's not in English, but was merely commenting
on the possibility that it might not be in E.R. Burroughs' phonology.
In English we say (I say?) Tárzan, with the accent on the first
syllable and possibly a syllabic n. The gorillas may have seen it as
two words: tar and zan, putting the accent on "zán," the noun:
"Here
comes Tar Zán swinging through the trees." (Watch out for that
tree!!) I wasn't defending a doctoral dissertion.
Y'all have a good weekend.
Charlie
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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:32:57 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jan van Steenbergen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--- Jeffrey Henning skrzypszy:
>> I rather translate "Let's gather stones and wood" etc. because
>> this method belongs more tightly to the concept of building a
>> house and is more commonly known? That would seem logical to me.
>>
>>I agree - I think that's the right approach. It is certainly one of
>>the guiding principles of translation relays.
>>>I, on the other hand, have my doubts. The Babel text is a piece of
>>>history (or mythology, if you like) taking place on a more or less
>>>established moment in our world's history, on a fixed place.
>>>usually, a translator does not transplant the stuff he's working
>>>on into a completely different time and place. In other words,
>>>gathering stones and wood instead of clay and mortar is the same
>>>to me as writing: "And Moses climbed the Empire State Building,
>>>and yelled to the crowd: ..." Even if certain objects or concepts
>>>are alien to your (con)culture, your language may very well have a
>>>word for it.
>>>Jan
I agree with Jan. We're not talking about deeply held religious
principles here (unless someone wants to translate "Romans"), but an
attempt to explain one culture's artifacts to another. Explaining
snow and ice to Samoans, at one time, may have been difficult but
there are circumlocutions.
The whole purpose of that line in the story was to explain to the
Hebrew culture what the Mesopotamian culture used for building. In
their mountains the Hebrews used stone/mortar while on the
Mesopotamian plain they used brick/asphalt. If at all possible, if
the culture does know what stone/bricks/asphalt/mortar are, then
those words should be used. We're not trying to tell the reader how
to build a tower, but how that particular culture built a tower.
Charlie
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--- End forwarded message ---
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Message: 17
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:34:40 +0200
From: Rene Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: i-Mutation
Yann Kiraly wrote:
> Does anybody have an Idea into what sound an i could mutate (a->ä,
> o->ö, u->ü, e([e]very->ë(German [E]nde))? I am constructing a language
> that uses these mutations for grammatical infelction.
[i] cannot be fronted further.
However, in Calénnawn I solved this as follows: plurals are formed by
substituting the final vowel with |i|:
bórmo, bórmi
fish-SG, fish-PL
But |i| gets substituted with |ii| (pronounced as [y]):
réfni [REfni], réfnii [REfny]
woman, women
This is the only situation in which [y] occurs. (It is a funny
coincidence that handwritten |ii| resembles |ü| ).
A solution for your problem might be to let [u] mutate into [}] (or even
[1]) and let [i] mutate into [y].
Éylo,
René
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Message: 18
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 17:00:23 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: i-Mutation
Hi!
Rene Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>...
> This is the only situation in which [y] occurs. (It is a funny
> coincidence that handwritten |ii| resembles |ü| ).
>...
Indeed. I always found it strange that Estonian has both |ii| and
|ü|. Finnish is better off with |y| instead of |ü|, which can easily
be distinguished in handwriting.
**Henrik
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Message: 19
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 09:22:21 -0600
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:49:56 +0200, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> [It's a bit pedantic maybe, but the rule usually given by people who want
>> to say that /D/ is not a phoneme is that it seems to occur instead of /T/
>> at certain morpheme boundaries.)
>
> Does that mean that "bathe" is made up of two morphemes? Since for me,
> I have "bathe" [bEjD] contrasthing with "bath" [bA:T] and if the rule
> that selects [D] vs [T] is related to morphemes, I suppose that means
> that that the -e is a verb-producing morpheme, or something?
I'm a bit hazy on it, not quite being a deep believer in it myself, but
roughly... probably not the "-e" per se. The voicing itself may be a
verb-producing morpheme; not just in "breath/breathe", "cloth/"clothe"
(which also undergo vowel changes) but in "half/halve", "house/house",
"use/use", etc. which, to bolster the point, demonstrate verbal voicing
even outside of [T] ~ [D]. I suppose that the morpheme in full may be
to lengthen the vowel before a single fricative, which is to be voiced,
("half" being exempt by virtue of an earlier "l" blocking it, I guess).
I suppose the reasoning is if it's possible that a verb can have such a
voicing rule associated, so can a pronoun; not just in "thy", but also in
the demonstrative series with "th-" ("there", "then", cf. "where", "when"),
which rule would not otherwise be visible since these pronouns are a
closed class.
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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Message: 20
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:22:39 -0400
From: Yann Kiraly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: i-Mutation
I'm sorry I have to ask, put what is the pronunciation of [}]? The X-Sampa
to IPA translator gives me a u with a line through it, which I can't find
in any IPA pronunciation tables.
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Message: 21
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:25:43 -0400
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:32:57 -0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The whole purpose of that line in the story was to explain to the
>Hebrew culture what the Mesopotamian culture used for building. In
>their mountains the Hebrews used stone/mortar while on the
>Mesopotamian plain they used brick/asphalt. If at all possible, if
>the culture does know what stone/bricks/asphalt/mortar are, then
>those words should be used. We're not trying to tell the reader how
>to build a tower, but how that particular culture built a tower.
I guess we should agree to disagree: the translator can have their own
agenda. Are they trying to convey a story that they see as literally true?
Are they trying to convey a story that they regard as a parable? If it is
literally true, then translate it as equivalently as possible. If it is a
parable, then translate it into cultural terms that convey the essence of
the story.
- Jeffrey
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Message: 22
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:39:04 -0400
From: Yann Kiraly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: i-Mutation
Thanks for the replies. I think I will let u mutate into a schwa and spell
it as y and let the i become /y/. That is easy to pronounce and looks good.
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Message: 23
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:35:32 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: i-Mutation
Yann Kiraly wrote:
>I'm sorry I have to ask, put what is the pronunciation of [}]? The X-Sampa
>to IPA translator gives me a u with a line through it, which I can't find
>in any IPA pronunciation tables.
>
>
>
>
Between [y] and [u].
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Message: 24
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:45:47 +0100
From: Simon Richard Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
B. Garcia wrote:
> Oh and here's a small list of amusing taxonomic names from:
>
> http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/menke.html
...
Then, of course there are the owl louse named after Gary Larson
(Strigiphilus garylarsoni):
<http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun2001/991766455.Zo.r.html>
and the (extinct) chenolian named after Terry Pratchett
(Psephophorus terrypratchetti): (2/3rds of the way down)
<http://www.sffworld.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2874.html>
(I found a link to a site on this kind of stuff on the second page
linked to: <http://home.earthlink.net/~misaak/taxonomy.html>)
--
Simon Richard Clarkstone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message: 25
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:20:24 -0400
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Enlar ge your manhood today! QPxI
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:18:16 -0500
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