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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: geemblik
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: geemblik
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. USAGE: odd ones (was Re: Damin)
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. And another North Wind and Sun translation
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Khangaþyagon RFC
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: affixes
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. My first romlang sentence
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: some Bukisi
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: [OT] conplaneteering
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. TECH: Unicode (Re: some Bukisi)
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: TECH: Unicode (Re: some Bukisi)
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: [OT] conplaneteering
From: Michael Poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: [OT] conplaneteering
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: [OT] conplaneteering
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: My first romlang sentence
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. [OT] decimal point/comma (was conplaneteering)
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: some Bukisi
From: Matt Arriola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: [OT] decimal point/comma (was conplaneteering)
From: Phil Bordelon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: [OT] decimal point/comma (was conplaneteering)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: [OT] conplaneteering
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: [OT] conplaneteering
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:52:42 -0500
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: geemblik
René Uittenbogaard ha tera a:
> [...] Are there many examples in other languages
> of reducing six syllables to three?
The most drastic instance of reduction I can think of is the sentence I
described here:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0302D&L=conlang&P=R25463&D=0&H=0&O=T&T=1
(back in my early days on the list before I knew the dangers of
starting Yet Another English Pronunciation Thread)
Basically, the sentence involves the reduction of "I am going to have"
to 2 syllables [aIm g&v], starting from 6 or 4 depending on whether you
take hypercorrect speech or normal-speed colloquial speech as your
starting point.
Another instance that comes to mind is an instance when my sister said
[EMAIL PROTECTED] as a reduced form of "do you want to" - 4 syllables to 2.
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:14:13 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: geemblik
--- Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> René Uittenbogaard ha tera a:
> > [...] Are there many examples in other languages
> > of reducing six syllables to three?
>
> The most drastic instance of reduction
<snip>>
> Basically, the sentence involves the reduction of "I
> am going to have"
> to 2 syllables [aIm g&v], starting from 6 or 4
> depending on whether you
> take hypercorrect speech or normal-speed colloquial
> speech as your
> starting point.
In my region I commonly hear "I am going to" reduced
to "muh" as in "Muh take a walk."
--gary
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:55:42 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: USAGE: odd ones (was Re: Damin)
On 14 Feb 2005, at 11.15 pm, caeruleancentaur wrote:
> http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html
>
> "...thuu is used for large sea-dwelling mammals such as dugongs and
> turtles,..."
>
> I'd like to pick a nit. Surely the author knows that turtles are not
> mammals. I can only see this as another example of believing that
> the words "animal" and "mammal" are synonymous.
While on the subject of odd usages, I just came across a post with the
subject header 'I have diven in agin'
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.crafts.meadmaking/
browse_thread/thread/9a403b43e99e27c1>. It seems 'dive' is a regular
strong verb nowadays :)
--
Tristan.
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:08:01 -0500
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: And another North Wind and Sun translation
Hi all,
Everyone else has been merrily posting theirs, and I just finished the
Franj version, so here it is. Enjoy!
La jell norde et li solai
/la dZEL 'no:r.d@ Et li so'la:j/
The(f) wind north and the(m) sun
1)
La jell norde et li solai ent riyùtent kei estùrent li forsar, qand un
saihatis kei qijùt un kote jiyàl kelùt.
/la dZEL 'no:r.d@ Et li so'la:j E~nt 'ri:.jy.tE~nt_d kej Es'tyr.E~nt
li 'for.sa:r, qo~nd_d a~n saj'ha:.tIs kej 'qi:.Zut_d a~n 'ko:.t@ dZi:'j&l
kE'lYt_d/
La jell norde et li solai ent riyùt.ent kei est.ùr.ent li fors.ar, qand un
saihatis kei qij.ùt un kote jiyàl kel.ùt
The(f) wind north and the(m) sun PF(3pl.fr) dispute.PRT(fr) who be.FUT.PRT
(fr) strong.er(bk), when a(m) traveller who wear.IMP(3sgl.fr) a(m) cloak
warm come.IMP(3sgl.fr)
2)
Ils xexùnt ku li premier kei exkùtùt a farur li saihatis a dusrovur xon
kote, il estùrit apalur forsar di la ùter.
/i:ls 'SE.Sy~nt_d ku: li 'prEm.jEr kej 'ES.kY.tYt_d a fa:'rur li
saj'ha:.tIs a dus'ro:.vur So~:n 'ko:.t@,
i:l 'Es.tYr.i:t_d 'a.pa.lu:r 'for.sa:r di: 'ly:.tEr/
Ils xex.ùnt ku li premier kei exkùt.ùt a far.ur li saihatis a dus.rov.ur
xon kote, il est.ùrit apal.ur fors.ar di la ùter.
They(m) decide.IMP(3pl.fr) that the(m) first who succeed.IMP(3sgl.fr) to
make.INF(bk) the(m) traveller to dis.dress.INF(bk) his(m) cloak, he(m)
be.FUT name.INF(bk) strong.er(bk) from the(f) other
3)
La jell norde it ventù qel fors di mùmken, alor li qel fors ell ventùt, li
qel ferm at oralu li saihatis xon kote; et sanda recrùt la jell norde li
esài.
/la ZEL 'no:r.d@ i:t_d vE~n.'ty: qEl fo:rs di: 'mYm.kEn, a'lo:r li qEl
fo:rs EL vE~n.tYt, li qEl fErm a:t o'ra:.lu li saj'ha:.tIs SO~n 'ko:.t@;
et 'so~:n.da rE'kry:t_d la ZEL 'no:r.d@ lE'saj/
La jell norde it vent.ù qel fors di mùmken, alor li qel fors ell vent.ùt,
li qel ferm at oral.u li saihatis xon kote; et sanda recr.ùt la jell norde
li esài
The(f) wind north PF(3sgl.fr) blow.PST(fr) how strong from possible, but the
(m) how strong it(f) blow.IMP(3sgl.fr), the(m) how tight PF(3sgl.bk)
wrap.PST(bk) the(m) traveller his(m) cloak; and eventually give_up.IMP
(3sgl.fr) the(f) wind north the(m) attempt
4)
Then the sun shone out warmly, and immediately the traveller took off his
cloak.
Et alor walatrut li solai jiyàl, et solle dusrovut li saihatis xon kote.
/Et_d a'lo:r gwa.lat'ru:t_d li so'la:j dZi:'j&l, Et_d 'sO.L@ dus'ro:vut_d
li saj'ha:.tIs SO~n 'ko:.t@/
Et alor walatr.ut li solai jiyàl, et solle dus.rov.ut li saihatis xon kote
And but shine.IMP(3sgl.bk) the(m) sun warm, and then dis(bk).dress.IMP
(3sgl.bk) the(m) traveller his(m) cloak
5)
Et anda la jell norde it ùbijù a esmitùr ku li solai estùt li forsar di lùs.
/Et_d 'o~:n.da la ZEL 'no:r.d@ i:t_d 'y:.bi.Zy: a Es'mi:.tYr ku: li so'la:j
Es'tYt_d li 'for.sa:r di lYs/
Et anda la jell norde it ùbij.ù a esmit.ùr ku li solai est.ùt li fors.ar di
lùs.
And so the(f) wind north PF(3sgl.fr) oblige.PST(fr) to admit.INF(fr) that
the(m) sun be.IMP(3sgl.fr) the(m) strong.er of them(3pl.m)
IMP = Past Imperfect
PF = Perfect
PST = Past
bk = when with back vowels
fr = when with front vowels
FUT = Future tense
PRT = Participle
m = masculine
f = feminine
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:37:49 +0000
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Khangaþyagon RFC
I'm still NOMAIL, but, as anyone who reads the Langmaker site or the
Conlang Wiki regularly may be aware, I'm now inviting comments and
questions about Khangaþyagon via the wiki page
http://www.talideon.com/concultures/wiki/?doc=Khangathyagon
I was inspired to do this after a recent conversation with Sally Caves, in
which she asked me several questions about my design goals.
Please take a look and add any questions or comments you think reasonable.
I'm planning to answer questions about once a week.
Pete
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:06:04 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: affixes
* Henrik Theiling said on 2005-02-14 17:52:40 +0100
> * Scotto Hlad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > I'm looking for some lists of very affixes to help me develop nouns
> > for my new conlang. Does anyone know of any lists of affixes that
> > might designate different forms of nouns?
> >
> > eg.
> > stem + affix1 = a tool
> > stem + affix2 = a place.
> >
> > I'm looking for the categories that the affixes would designate.
> > Any direction would be helpful.
>
> I'm using the Greenlandic ('Kalaallisut', Inuit-Aleutic language) approach
> to derive these in my conlang Qthyn|gai, [..]
/snip/
> So if you want a *really* rich system of derivation in your conlang,
> have a look at Kalaallisut: of the Inuit languages, it is said to have
> the most complex derivation system which has adjusted to the exposure
> to new cultural ideas in recent history by pushing the derivational
> system to its extreme. A lexicon (not too easy to get) will list *a
> lot* of affixes that might inspire you. :-)
This seems like a possible resource for Kalaallisut:
http://www.oqaasileriffik.gl/dk/
t.
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:43:20 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: My first romlang sentence
Posting here for general approval before taking it to the romlang group where
it belongs...
I made a try at my first guess at a sentence in my nascent romlang. It deviates
from tradition in that the second NP is indefinite instead of definite. This is
on purpose, to let me see what I think of the system for marking NPs as such.
La agilleta, purra hualpa suilet serca nesigia ncaña.
/la agil_jeta pura walpa silet se4ka nesidZa N_0an_ja/
I might make it based on an island in the British Channel (ish) instead of the
Mediterranian.
Any input or questions?
Paul
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:02:01 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: some Bukisi
Hey!
On Sunday 13 February 2005 18:52 +0100, Matt Arriola wrote:
> I know some (all?) of you can't
> see unicode,
That is not (completely) true. If you tell your mail client that
your mail is in Unicode by setting the encoding of the mail
accordingly, it should work. If you send a mail via the web
interface of Listserv, you must set your browser to
"UTF-8". I don't know, though, if the Listserv software is
smart enough to notice the change. It may well be that
Unicode gets mangled that way, at least on the page. It is
true, though, that you need to be careful with Listserv and
Unicode since Listserv doesn't like a whole range of
characters.
> 1. Bhâsa gatî ca kîu sapâna vã hâ uyâna sap yukâ
> 2. Pasti paslphû sislphâ bhukisl spâ, slu sû hâ Sinar smï
> khita, pasva ghibû hâ stî
> [...]
> 1. language one and word-PL uniform is PAST world to whole
> 2. then people migrate-PAST east from, they find PAST
> Shinar in valley, and.then settle PAST there
> [...]
So a pidgin is a simplified mixture of two (or more)
languages, did I understand that correctly? I haven't tried
that yet.
Carsten
--
Edatamanon le matahanarà benenoea eityabo ena
15-A7-58-10-2-1B-23 ena Curan Tertanyan.
» http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:02:32 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering
On Monday 14 February 2005 06:01 +0100, Philip Newton wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:29:46 +0100, Carsten Becker
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> > Kappa Virgo[1]
>
> Kappa Virginis?
That's what the program said. (KAstronomy or something like
that)
> > a radius of 18.38x our sun and a rotation period of
> > 53,000 days (cf. 25,400 days).
>
> Jörg said our sun has a rotation period of
> "twenty-something days", yet you say it's twenty-five
> *thousand* days?
Then this should be 53.000 and 25.400 days accordingly, with
the period seperating the wholes from the fractions.
Philipp Newton said:
> At first I thought that might be a decimal comma, but you
> wrote "18.38x" and not "18,38x".
Mark J. Reed in addition:
> I think it was just a case of inconsistently translating
> from decimal comma to decimal point for the benefit of
> the intended audience.
Yes, Mark is right. Anyway, it's 18 and 38/100. But I should
be more consistent.
Why can't you Anglophones not simply change to comma like
the rest of the world? Or us to the period? Though the
latter one would certainly be more troublesome
("aufwändig", in the meaning of both, efford and costs).
This was a rethorical question.
Carsten
--
Edatamanon le matahanarà benenoea ena 15-A7-58-11-2-1-24 ena
Curan Tertanyan.
» http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:15:31 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: TECH: Unicode (Re: some Bukisi)
Hi!
Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hey!
>
> On Sunday 13 February 2005 18:52 +0100, Matt Arriola wrote:
>
> > I know some (all?) of you can't
> > see unicode,
>
> That is not (completely) true.
Well, the sentence with is true if you use 'some'. :-)
> If you tell your mail client that
> your mail is in Unicode by setting the encoding of the mail
> accordingly, it should work.
But only if the mailer (or newsreader -- I'm using a newsreader to
read this group) is Unicode aware, of course, which mine is not.
To read a message in Unicode that for same lucky reason did not get
mangled by Listserv or anything else, I have to use a Web browser and
have a look at the archives. Not really too comfortable for me.
So, still, *some* people definitely cannot read Unicode here. At
least not well. That's probably what links to the web are for: I
myself cannot live well without UTF-8 anymore in my browser, for
example. :-)
> It is true, though, that you need to be careful with Listserv and
> Unicode since Listserv doesn't like a whole range of characters.
Exactly. That's one reason why I'm not too eager to change
my set-up -- Listserv is not fully prepared for Unicode either.
**Henrik
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:01:45 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: Unicode (Re: some Bukisi)
----- Original Message -----
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Listserv is not fully prepared for Unicode either.
Is that a blanket statement for all versions of Listserv, or only the version
that Brown are using?
If the latter, I say we rally round and mount a stern letter-writing campaign.
Paul
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:08:23 -0000
From: Michael Poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering
I should think a K-type giant star is a better bet than a short-lived B-type
supergiant for a planetary system with a habitable planet. You will need to
site your planet at a comparatively short distance from kappa Vir in order
for it to receive enough em energy to start the biological processes going.
Mike
> While reading this thread, I wondered if it wouldn't be
> better to put my planet into the orbit of κ Virgo[1] to
> make an end to unscientific guesswork. However, an
> astronomy program that came with a version of Knoppix Linux
> said κ Virgo was 85.6x our sun in size, was in class K3III
> (cf. G2V), had a surface temperature of 4730K (cf. 5860K),
> had a radius of 18.38x our sun and a rotation period of
> 53,000 days (cf. 25,400 days). Would it be better suitable
> for life than Mark's star?
>
> Thanks,
> Carsten
>
> [1] Kappa because my first name begins with [k], Virgo
> because I was born on August 26. It's the same method Mark
> Reed or Ray Brown or so used for placing their conworld.
>
> --
> Edatamanon le matahanarà benenoea ena 15-A7-58-10-2-1A-22
> ena Curan Tertanyan.
> » http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/05
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/05
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:47:14 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering
On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 06:02:32PM +0100, Carsten Becker wrote:
> Why can't you Anglophones not simply change to comma like
> the rest of the world?
> (This was a rethorical question.)
Is it really an Anglophone thing? I thought the decimal comma and
thousands-period were in use in the UK, too.
-Marcos
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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:05:06 +0000
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 06:02:32PM +0100, Carsten Becker wrote:
>
>>Why can't you Anglophones not simply change to comma like
>>the rest of the world?
>>(This was a rethorical question.)
>
> Is it really an Anglophone thing? I thought the decimal comma and
> thousands-period were in use in the UK, too.
Lord, no! Strictly speaking, it's a raised dot that's used in the
anglophone world, but with the rise of typewriters and, later,
computer, that became a full-stop.
I wish people'd use the raised dot more.
K.
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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:37:56 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: My first romlang sentence
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> La agilleta, purra hualpa suilet serca nesigia ncaña.
> /la agil_jeta pura walpa silet se4ka nesidZa N_0an_ja/
That's /adZil_jeta/. Also, all nouns are feminine, which is semantically not
right for the English original (though some would argue the original is largely
epicene).
Next on the list, with the help of the Internet, might be a certain passage
from Cicero, just because I happen to have it and a good translation
immediately to hand.
Paul
PS: Apparently, when I use my ISPs webmail, you need to watch the reply-to.
Christian, did you intend your reply to go to me or the list? I can forward it
if you didn't keep a copy.
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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:45:40 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [OT] decimal point/comma (was conplaneteering)
On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:05:06 +0000, Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Strictly speaking, it's a raised dot that's used in the
> anglophone world
Ah! Nostalgia.
That brings back memories from... 7th grade or so (age ~13), and older
British textbooks which used raised dot for decimals. Ah.
For me, it has a slightly quaint feeling :)
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:59:28 -0500
From: Matt Arriola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: some Bukisi
Well, it might be a creole, I'm not sure. Apparently there has never
been a pidgin formed with a fusional superstrate language
> So a pidgin is a simplified mixture of two (or more)
> languages, did I understand that correctly? I haven't tried
> that yet.
>
> Carsten
>
> --
> Edatamanon le matahanarà benenoea eityabo ena
> 15-A7-58-10-2-1B-23 ena Curan Tertanyan.
> » http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
>
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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:16:04 -0600
From: Phil Bordelon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] decimal point/comma (was conplaneteering)
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> Which reminds me - where did the × and ÷ symbols come from? Everyone
> learns them in early grades, and they show up as labels on calculator
> keys, but they're never used in actual mathematics notation . . .
I'm certainly not an expert on, um, anything, but I'd venture to guess
that ÷ is a fraction, with dots representing the locations the two
numbers would go.
> -Marcos
Phil
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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:05:58 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] decimal point/comma (was conplaneteering)
On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 08:45:40PM +0100, Philip Newton wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:05:06 +0000, Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Strictly speaking, it's a raised dot that's used in the
> > anglophone world
>
> Ah! Nostalgia.
Indeed. The raised decimal point goes with those mixed-height numerals
(which someone was talking about on here for use in conlang orthography
since they blend with letters better). It's a dated usage now, however;
even in fancily typeset mathematics, the decimal point is the same as a
full stop. These days, a raised dot is a symbol for multiplication,
used when simple juxtaposition is ambiguous or for special cases like
the vector dot product.
Which reminds me - where did the × and ÷ symbols come from? Everyone
learns them in early grades, and they show up as labels on calculator
keys, but they're never used in actual mathematics notation . . .
-Marcos
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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:39:15 +0100
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
Hallo!
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:01:43 -0500,
Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My name is Damian, and I'm a conlanger.
Welcome!
> I've dabbled for
> years, never "finishing" anything to the point that arbitrary
> conversation is possible.
Well, only few people ever get to that point in conlanging.
Most conlangs remain incomplete.
> I come to this list to ask for help
> in getting past roadblocks. I've read some of the archives,
> but not all 6 1/2 years of them. Here's where I want help:
>
>
> LEXICAL ICONICITY
>
> When creating the a priori lexicon for Qenya (early drafts of
> Quenya), Tolkien chose sound patterns that he felt "fit" a given
> meaning.
> http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/vice.htm
>
> However, I seem to have a dulled sense of aesthetics, possibly
> caused by my Asperger syndrome that causes me to distrust vague
> hunches. Much of the time, I can't seem to do better than creating
> phonotactic rules and then randomly assigning Swadesh-list glosses
> to sound patterns, possibly with the aid of a computer program.
> Are there some general procedures that govern lexical innovation
> in natlangs and naturalistic conlangs? Has anybody successfully
> implemented ding-dong or ta-ta in their conlangs?
The relationship between sound and meaning in languages is generally
arbitrary, with only few words approaching iconicity. And aesthetics
is a very subjective issue. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I find naturalistic conlangs (i.e., conlangs that look like natlangs,
with a sense of historicity) beautiful and conlangs that give away
their artificiality at first sight ugly, but there are people around
here who have a different taste.
There have been attempts to create conlangs that avoid the
arbitrariness inherent in natlangs. They are called "philsophical
languages", and they were failures. There is no such thing as
an "iconic language".
> DEFAULT SETTINGS OF GRAMMAR
>
> I don't want to make euroclones all the time, but I don't want to
> make an unspeakable language that violates fifty-two universals
> either. What structures are "easier" for the developing hominid
> brain to parse? For example, do learners intrinsically prefer
> object-verb order or verb-object order? What about adjective-noun
> or noun-adjective? Is there any appeal to iconicity for this?
The variation among human languages is enormous, and it is hard
to say whether left-branching (object-verb, adj-noun, postpositions)
or right-branching (verb-object, noun-adj, prepositions) structures
are easier to parse.
> CULTURAL-PHONETIC CORRELATION
>
> Does tendency for open or closed syllables, for softer or harder
> sounds, or for tones or no tones, depend on culture? I've heard
> of the Inuit and the Arabs, whose languages have fewer distinct
> vowel heights and more back consonants because their harsh
> environments make it painful to open the mouth to the elements
> in order to produce low vowels.
Few linguists would subscribe to that. There seems not to be
any correlation between culture and phonology.
> In addition, Tolkien's chaotic
> orcs speak a phonaesthetically "harsher" language than his
> lawful elves. Is such correlation the rule or the exception?
Again, it's subjective. Tolkien decided that the good guys in
his story would speak languages he'd consider beautiful, and the
bad guys languages he'd consider ugly. The next author will have
different ideas about what is beautiful, and build his languages
accordingly.
> CULTURAL-GRAMMATIC CORRELATION
>
> Likewise, are any grammatical qualities correlated to aspects
> of the culture? Does an environmental or cultural constraint
> correlate with an OV or VO preference, with obligate marking
> of various properties of a noun or verb, or anything similar?
> I can see how a more paranoid culture might lead to evidentiary
> markers becoming grammaticalized; are there other examples?
There is perhaps more of a correlation between culture and grammar
than between culture and phonology. A rigidly stratified culture
is perhaps more likely top develop an elaborate system of honorifics
than an egalitarian one, for example.
> SIMPLIFICATION
>
> I understand that the lexicon can be reduced to sizes that
> may initially appear absurd while retaining expressiveness.
> Evidence: A conlang called Toki Pona manages to convey every
> meaning one can think of in 120 basic words.
Closed vocabularies don't really work. You will find that the
words that aren't there must be replaced by circumlocutions
which must be learned individually just like words. No natlang
has a closed vocabulary.
> Is this true of grammar as well? For instance, in computing, the
> problem called 2-SAT is not NP-complete, but 3-SAT is NP-complete.
> Does this result have an analog in human language? Is it possible
> to make a fully expressive language that uses two-word clauses?
I don't know, but I doubt it.
> Specifically, is the narrator's description of the language of
> the Eloi in chapter 5 of HG Wells's _The_Time_Machine_ unnatural?
>
> "Either I missed some subtle point or their language was
> excessively simple - almost exclusively composed of concrete
> substantives and verbs. There seemed to be few, if any, abstract
> terms, or little use of figurative language. Their sentences
> were usually simple and of two words, and I failed to convey
> or understand any but the simplest propositions."
Sounds like a pidgin.
> (N.B.: The description doesn't match movie Eloi by John Logan.
> But then little in the book matched the movie.)
This is a recurrent problem with movies based on books ;-)
> FURTHER READING
>
> When I search for some of these topics, Google often gives me
> results that look promising but say "Download this article for $30".
> Once Google fails me for gratis web resources, and my local public
> library's search engine fails me for print resources, what are some
> good resources for learning about these subjects without spending
> $500 on buying books and buying individual PDF article downloads?
> Or is conlanging a rich man's hobby?
It is not. There is plenty of good free stuff on the Net.
For a good start, read the Language Construction Kit, which tells
you how to build a conlang and addresses most of your questions:
http://www.zompist.com/kit.html
Greetings,
Jörg.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:09:41 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:50:05 -0500, Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I'd say it's an exception. There's this stereotype that good guys go
>"ellinnilathienithiethiaeaenennelli" and bad guys go "blug blag ugga chunk
>jukblag zoglogga gluk". I even saw one site** that prescribed these as rules
>to use in giving sounds to the language of your conculture (!). Tolkien had
>an aesthetic preference in sounds and it shows in which sounds he assigned
>to which cultures. But there's no reason why you MUST use his template.
>(I'm prejudiced, of course; by JRRT's standards my Rhean is an "ugly"
>language, but not by mine!)
Well, when developing the phonetical changes for my Matein Einlich, I first
looked which changes were feasible, and of those I often took those which
were most aesthetical pleasing to me :)
At least with the consonants, having many diphtongs was more of a
conincidence, but I like it too.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:58:35 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jörg Rhiemeier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Hallo!
>
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:01:43 -0500,
> Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> My name is Damian, and I'm a conlanger.
This does sound like a twelve step program, doesn't it! :) Hello, Damian!
Sed tso o karyts narlty! ("We welcome you warmly").
>> I've dabbled for
>> years, never "finishing" anything to the point that arbitrary
>> conversation is possible.
>
> Well, only few people ever get to that point in conlanging.
> Most conlangs remain incomplete.
It's like Xeno's paradox. That arrow never gets to its target, no matter
how many words you invent. If you invent a word for house, then you have to
invent the things inside a house, ever spiraling down to the microcosmic;
you're at the dressing table. What are the words for brush? bristles in a
brush? hairs caught in the bristles in a brush? You get the idea. I
imagine natural languages go through this process too, and its speakers feel
just as helpless. Imagine Mulcaster, trying to defend the validity of the
English tunge in the face of the clearly superior (to him and others) Latin,
cum French and Italian of the sixteenth century.
>> I come to this list to ask for help
>> in getting past roadblocks. I've read some of the archives,
>> but not all 6 1/2 years of them. Here's where I want help:
>>
>>
>> LEXICAL ICONICITY
>>
>> When creating the a priori lexicon for Qenya (early drafts of
>> Quenya), Tolkien chose sound patterns that he felt "fit" a given
>> meaning.
>> http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/vice.htm
>>
>> However, I seem to have a dulled sense of aesthetics, possibly
>> caused by my Asperger syndrome that causes me to distrust vague
>> hunches. Much of the time, I can't seem to do better than creating
>> phonotactic rules and then randomly assigning Swadesh-list glosses
>> to sound patterns, possibly with the aid of a computer program.
>> Are there some general procedures that govern lexical innovation
>> in natlangs and naturalistic conlangs? Has anybody successfully
>> implemented ding-dong or ta-ta in their conlangs?
Words that are onomatopoeic? Tsyttsytsa is "cricket" in Teonaht, and it
intends to imitate the sound a cricket makes. In the early stages of
Teonaht, Damian, I just pulled words out of the air arbitrarily. I had a
strong sense at the time (which you claim you don't but you may surprise
yourself!) that a word would "fit" its meaning, and as the language
developed I resorted to more and more compounding. But I state as strongly
as Jörg does that this is completely subjective.
> The relationship between sound and meaning in languages is generally
> arbitrary, with only few words approaching iconicity. And aesthetics
> is a very subjective issue. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Exactly. In looking over Teonaht, I have found that I find "nrina" rather
beautiful, although it starts with a rather unconventional consonant
cluster. I have tended to favor quite a lot of clucky sounds: kemkrilyt for
"labyrinthine" is full of clusters that other people might find harsh, and
yet I adore that word. I have a book of words I pulled out of the air
(where the F*#)(@)k is it?) and to which I had planned to assign meanings,
and many tend towards three syllables with stress on the first syllable.
Avgyab, begrimod, krestimait, zydzyend, etc. I find these collection of
syllables pleasing, though there is nothing inherently beautiful about them.
> I find naturalistic conlangs (i.e., conlangs that look like natlangs,
> with a sense of historicity) beautiful and conlangs that give away
> their artificiality at first sight ugly, but there are people around
> here who have a different taste.
So Jörg, what conlangs give their artificiality away? There are so many
features of a language that could considered "artificial." Many of the
linguistic scholars of glossolalia were so sure they could identify the
artificial aspects of that linguistic practice by noting the 1) open
syllables, 2) reduced phonology, 3) echoism, etc. that we find in Hawaiian,
for instance. An over regularity of grammar?
> There have been attempts to create conlangs that avoid the
> arbitrariness inherent in natlangs. They are called "philsophical
> languages", and they were failures. There is no such thing as
> an "iconic language".
>
>> DEFAULT SETTINGS OF GRAMMAR
>>
>> I don't want to make euroclones all the time, but I don't want to
>> make an unspeakable language that violates fifty-two universals
>> either. What structures are "easier" for the developing hominid
>> brain to parse? For example, do learners intrinsically prefer
>> object-verb order or verb-object order? What about adjective-noun
>> or noun-adjective? Is there any appeal to iconicity for this?
>
> The variation among human languages is enormous, and it is hard
> to say whether left-branching (object-verb, adj-noun, postpositions)
> or right-branching (verb-object, noun-adj, prepositions) structures
> are easier to parse.
Teonaht is a direct violation of the Greenbergian rules for syntax. It is
OSV, or more colloquially SOV with adjectives that are postpositional and
prepositions that are... for the lack of a better word. . .prepositional,
although you do find the -jo and -ro among the conjuntions that are
postpositional.
If I were ever to invent a new language, don't hold your breath! I would
probably make its words far more monosyllabic; it would be inflected with a
syntax that expresses topic and focus. Or I would invent a Teonivar who
invents a philosophical language. And have it fail, or taken up by
Rrordaly's mimes.
>> CULTURAL-PHONETIC CORRELATION
>>
>> Does tendency for open or closed syllables, for softer or harder
>> sounds, or for tones or no tones, depend on culture? I've heard
>> of the Inuit and the Arabs, whose languages have fewer distinct
>> vowel heights and more back consonants because their harsh
>> environments make it painful to open the mouth to the elements
>> in order to produce low vowels.
>
> Few linguists would subscribe to that. There seems not to be
> any correlation between culture and phonology.
Again, exactly. It's like the amateur linguists who wanted to psychologize
the Welsh for their initial mutations ("they're lazy") or better, for the
particles that precede initial verbs and predicates. "Nothing touches. They
are secretive, careful, mystical." Bosh!
>> In addition, Tolkien's chaotic
>> orcs speak a phonaesthetically "harsher" language than his
>> lawful elves. Is such correlation the rule or the exception?
>
> Again, it's subjective. Tolkien decided that the good guys in
> his story would speak languages he'd consider beautiful, and the
> bad guys languages he'd consider ugly. The next author will have
> different ideas about what is beautiful, and build his languages
> accordingly.
However, I might add that there is some research being done into the
aesthetics of western language by no other than the Cornish Language
revivalists; I talked to one at the Berkeley conference I attended two years
ago. I don't know if this was his particular bailiwick, or one that has a
larger calling. But language aesthetic, especially in the reconstruction of
language, or the creation of a dead language, is of interest to some people.
We talked about the relatively common assumption that front consonants and
liquids with few clusters are considered "prettier" than back consonants and
back consonant clusters. I like Mike Ellis's examples! HAH! But again,
this is cultural. Like what chords and note sequences express
"sorrowfulness" vs. "an upbeat attitude" in music.
>> CULTURAL-GRAMMATIC CORRELATION
>>
>> Likewise, are any grammatical qualities correlated to aspects
>> of the culture? Does an environmental or cultural constraint
>> correlate with an OV or VO preference, with obligate marking
>> of various properties of a noun or verb, or anything similar?
>> I can see how a more paranoid culture might lead to evidentiary
>> markers becoming grammaticalized; are there other examples?
>
> There is perhaps more of a correlation between culture and grammar
> than between culture and phonology. A rigidly stratified culture
> is perhaps more likely top develop an elaborate system of honorifics
> than an egalitarian one, for example.
I agree. But I don't think that syntax can be tied down to cultural
constraints. I also don't think that a culture need be "paranoid" to
produce evidentiary markers, any more than a culture is overly precise and
fussy because it shows redundant marking with gender/number and
noun/adjective. The French however... :) :) :D
>> SIMPLIFICATION
>>
>> I understand that the lexicon can be reduced to sizes that
>> may initially appear absurd while retaining expressiveness.
>> Evidence: A conlang called Toki Pona manages to convey every
>> meaning one can think of in 120 basic words.
>
> Closed vocabularies don't really work. You will find that the
> words that aren't there must be replaced by circumlocutions
> which must be learned individually just like words. No natlang
> has a closed vocabulary.
>
>> Is this true of grammar as well? For instance, in computing, the
>> problem called 2-SAT is not NP-complete, but 3-SAT is NP-complete.
>> Does this result have an analog in human language? Is it possible
>> to make a fully expressive language that uses two-word clauses?
>
> I don't know, but I doubt it.
>
>> Specifically, is the narrator's description of the language of
>> the Eloi in chapter 5 of HG Wells's _The_Time_Machine_ unnatural?
>>
>> "Either I missed some subtle point or their language was
>> excessively simple - almost exclusively composed of concrete
>> substantives and verbs. There seemed to be few, if any, abstract
>> terms, or little use of figurative language. Their sentences
>> were usually simple and of two words, and I failed to convey
>> or understand any but the simplest propositions."
>
> Sounds like a pidgin.
Sounds, rather, like that South American tribe whose name I can't remember;
I have it on the tip of my tongue. Their language was also almost devoid of
abstractions, and they showed an inability to calculate, as well, i.e., to
think in abstractions. We even discussed it about a year ago.
Back to work,
Sally
Al eskkoat ol ai sendran rohsan nuehra celyil takrem bomai nakuo
(I'm just noticing all those "k"s :)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 23
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:21:04 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering
On 16 Feb 2005, at 4.47 am, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 06:02:32PM +0100, Carsten Becker wrote:
>> Why can't you Anglophones not simply change to comma like
>> the rest of the world?
>> (This was a rethorical question.)
>
> Is it really an Anglophone thing? I thought the decimal comma and
> thousands-period were in use in the UK, too.
IIUC, decimal comma and thousand-period were meant to be adopted along
with the metric system in the UK. But that was never going to work.
The recommended system in ustralia is decimal point with numbers and
money (which is often done raised when handwritten but never when
printed), a (thin) space for thousands separators with numbers, and,
for some bizarre reason, a comma for thousands separators with money.
(Note that using a space for thousands separators includes thousandths
separators, so whereas you'd write '33,345.3423463' and sit around
scratching your head trying to work out how many figures there were
after the decimal, you'd write '33 345.342 346 3' and you can see
straight away there's seven.)
I also understand that BIPM, who defines the SI, was once against using
decimal points, but they've since seen the light and accept that in
English you should use a point but in other languages they insist upon
commas. They also recommend the use of a space for thousands
separators.
If everyone could agree on using spaces for thousands then it wouldn't
matter if you were using , or . for the decimal point; this is clearly
the intention of BIPM. Unfortunately I doubt this will happen till
keyboards get a non-breaking space key on them.
I find all the Swedish products I deal with at IKEA really weird when
they say things like 'Gewicht* 3,5 kg/Weight 123,5 oz' though. It's
even weirder when the only language on the packaging is English and
they still use commas for decimal points. It seems to me that
translating punctuation (and time into 12-hour) is just as much a part
of translation as translating 'Gewicht' into 'Weight'.
* I can only remember the German word for 'weight', but chances are the
German word will be on it somewheres.
--
Tristan.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 24
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:37:12 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:58:35 -0500, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The relationship between sound and meaning in languages is generally
> > arbitrary, with only few words approaching iconicity. And aesthetics
> > is a very subjective issue. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
>
Exactly. I find spoken German more pleasant than spoken French. But I
prefer sung french over sung German. I also find Tagalog and other
Philippine languages beautiful, but I know people who find it not so
nice.
Your own esthetcics, Damian will be different from mine. You may think
you don't have any, but they're there. Try not to judge what your
esthetics should be based upon what others have done with their
languages.
> >
> > Few linguists would subscribe to that. There seems not to be
> > any correlation between culture and phonology.
>
> Again, exactly. It's like the amateur linguists who wanted to psychologize
> the Welsh for their initial mutations ("they're lazy") or better, for the
> particles that precede initial verbs and predicates. "Nothing touches. They
> are secretive, careful, mystical." Bosh!
It reminds me of those "Folk explanations" that say "such and such
ruler/king/chief had a lazy tongue, so everyone began to imitate him".
I've heard that one millions of times, especially in regard to the
development of /l/ in certain environments in Aklanon to /G/: Aklanon
/ak'lanon/ > akeanon /ak'Ganon/ (e is oddly enough used to represent
that consonant sound in Akeanon).
> >
> > Again, it's subjective. Tolkien decided that the good guys in
> > his story would speak languages he'd consider beautiful, and the
> > bad guys languages he'd consider ugly. The next author will have
> > different ideas about what is beautiful, and build his languages
> > accordingly.
>
I'd be very amused to see someone write fiction where the good guys
have a "rough, harsh" language, and the bad guys have a flowing,
pretty one. Anyone actually done that?
> Sounds, rather, like that South American tribe whose name I can't remember;
> I have it on the tip of my tongue. Their language was also almost devoid of
> abstractions, and they showed an inability to calculate, as well, i.e., to
> think in abstractions. We even discussed it about a year ago.
The pirahã is who you're thinking of. I still can't wrap my head
around not having stories, or histories further back than one's grand
parents.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 25
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:47:24 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering
Quoting Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Mark J. Reed wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 06:02:32PM +0100, Carsten Becker wrote:
> >
> >>Why can't you Anglophones not simply change to comma like
> >>the rest of the world?
> >>(This was a rethorical question.)
> >
> > Is it really an Anglophone thing? I thought the decimal comma and
> > thousands-period were in use in the UK, too.
>
> Lord, no! Strictly speaking, it's a raised dot that's used in the
> anglophone world, but with the rise of typewriters and, later,
> computer, that became a full-stop.
>
> I wish people'd use the raised dot more.
Here, it's a decimal comma, and spaces separating the groups of three letters.
In my personal notes, I tend to use a decimal dot, however; it's more practical
when you're spearating multiple values in a vector or function argument with
commas, and also when listing nummerical values.
Andreas
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
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