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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: long consonants
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Article on Artificial Languages
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: long consonants
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Article on Artificial Languages
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: long consonants
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: long consonants
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: long consonants
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: long consonants
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: long consonants
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: long consonants
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Chinese family names (was Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound
Recording of Asha'ille!))
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:34:17 +0900
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: long consonants
> I'd want to ask if much languages distinguish long and short consonants
> like if /na/ and /n:a/ would have different meanings as it would be of /na/
> and /na:/
Doesn't English have this distinction? I can't think of a minimal pair,
but /n/ in "penknife" is longer than /n/ in "penny". No?
Oops, this is not a bait to start YAEPT.
Seo Sanghyeon
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:52:11 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If [to~:] is correct, the most natural adaption to Meghean would be
_Toñh_
> [toG~], I suppose.
[G~]? That's rather original, albeit Orkish-sounding to me...
kinda like the velar analogon to /F/. I liked it better when
Meghean nasals didn't lenit. And since we're at it, I'm also
not fond of the looks of ñ, though I believe you've had it
before. But it's your lang after all...
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 03:38:28 +0100
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sorry, what's the difference between laminal and
> apical?
I believe apicals are pronounced with the tip of the
tongue, while laminals are pronounced with the broad
surface of the tongue. English and German both have
apical [s] and [z]; I believe some dialects of Spanish
have a laminal [s], which gives the silibants a
'lispy' feel. Basque, IIRC, tells between both laminal
and apical [s] as phonemes.
'Retroflex' can be an extreme case of apicality, by
the way. In one conlang sketch, I had an apical velar
fricative; a 'retroflex' [x], with the tip of the
tongue approaching the velum (I have a very flexible
tongue). Can't think of any natlangs with that
phoneme.
> If there was */ts/, */dz/, and */s/, then we could
> say that */K/ became /S/ in Arabic (rather than
> merging with /S/).
For my current conlang, I tried to get away with using
/shiyn/ for [K], since IIRC, it was possibly
[K]anyways at one point. Didn't 'look' right, so I
decided to use /saad/ (using the logic that /saad/ is
a mere variant of /siyn/, which is an easy and typical
step to make, since I don't expect the speakers of my
language to be expert phonologists).
> However, the South Arabian languages have both /K/
> and /S/. Perhaps */s/ > /S/, */ts/ > /s/, and
> */dz/ > /z/ there. But what would cause /s/ to
> become /S/?
Palatalization? But in a root language like the
Semitics, it would mean that [s] and [S] would
alternate; it would stand to reason that other
consonants would fall under the influence of
palatalization as well; i.e., [z] becoming [Z] or [dZ]
and so on.
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse when I say that
laminal [s] can easily become postalveolar [S]; that's
what happened in German, at least.
> I don't mean to sound pretentious, but I wonder if
> the traditional interpretation of written Akkadian
> is a little incorrect. Not only does Akkadian show
> |š| in the S-stems, where Arabic shows ?- and
> Hebrew h-, but it also has |š| in the personal
> pronouns: šu: 'he', ši: 'she' (cf. Arabic
> huwa 'he', hiya 'she'). So the question is, did
> Akkadian retain an earlier /S/ where Arabic and
> Hebrew did not?
Good question. I'm going to have to look into that;
like I don't have enough to think about already.
Today, at work, I was trying to figure out what an
object with negative mass would be like. I lead a very
rich inner life :).
The alternation between [h] in Hebrew and [s/S] in
Akkadian makes some sense ([s] leniting to [h] is
pretty common in languages, IIRC), but how does Arabic
get away with [?]?
Then again, it could be that Arabic dropped [h] under
certain circumstances (in most dialects, it's a voiced
glottal approximant, and therefore, very weak indeed)
and replaced it with [?], since words in Arabic cannot
begin with an empty onset.
I heard it posited that the definite article /al-/ was
/*hal-/ at some point in both Hebrew and Arabic, and
the two langauges just dropped a different phomene in
each of their respective cases. Makes some sense, at least...
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 03:33:54 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
Many of these names have a traditional form in Jovian that
has undergone the Grand Master Plan, while more recent
phonetic imports are equally possible.
Henrik: Hendric ['hendriC]
Yep, I'm afraid the Jervans would hear your [R] as an
/r/ and treat it that way. No Jervan would be caught
dead pronouncing [nr] without an epenthetic [d]. So
sue them. :)
It's probably even a rather common name in Jervaine;
they like names in -ic, like Rodric ['ro:driC]
"Roderick", Uoric ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] "Ulrich", Lubic ['lu:biC]
"Ludwig" and Haeric/Hendric ['hajriC 'hendriC]
"Heinrich".
Björn: Biorne, [birn], Boerne [barn]
Arthaey: Arté [EMAIL PROTECTED]'te:], [,ar'te:]; Arteje [EMAIL
PROTECTED]'te:j],
[,ar'te:j]
Angosii: Angosi [EMAIL PROTECTED]'go:zi] or Angossi [EMAIL PROTECTED]'gAssi],
depending
on the voicedness of the s.
Rachel: Traditionally Rahel [ra:l] and Raele [rajl]. From
English: Retxel ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Robert: Traditionally Roverde [rA'vErd] and Rourde [rurd].
From English: Rovver ['[EMAIL PROTECTED], very unconventional.
Geminate v doesn't appear in actual Jovian.
Roland: Traditionally Rolande [rA'land] or Rolan ['ro:l@(n)].
Rudi: Ruodi ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] or Ruodul ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]@l] as nicknames of
Rudouve [ru'dowv].
Lisa: Lisa [li:z] or ['li:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Proper names are the last
bastion of pronounced final |a| in Jovian. Sometimes
it is even fully articulated as [a], but that has a
definite air of snobbery. As such, it is very popular
among the aristocracy.
Stephanie: Tsevaena [tse'vajn]. You're lucky, the male
version can get rather ugly: From Tsevane [tse'va:n]
over Tseffan ['tseff@(n)] to the abominable Tseompfe
[tsEmpf]. Tseffe/Tseffa are rather popular modern
names on that basis.
Andreas Johansson: Traditionally André or (archaic-ish)
Andreja. Johansson would be pronounced ['jo:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or
maybe ['jo:n,tsAn] in analogy to the wildly popular
first name Johan [jo:n].
John Cowen: Johan [jo:n], obviously. There's also the
variants Jandse [jandz] and Jondse [jAndz] from
Johannes. Cowen: Maybe Cauven ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] Incidentally,
I always thought you were pronounced /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/.
Barry Garcia: Is that derived from Bernhard? In that case,
Bernarde [bEr'nard], the alteration Bendrade
[ben'dra:d], Beorran ['bErr@(n)], or Benne [bEn] for
short. Garsija [EMAIL PROTECTED]'si:] or even [gar'si:a] for the
language-conscious.
Paul Bennett: Traditionally Paule [pawl]. Rather straight-
forward, I'm afraid. You can have people call you
Pulloc ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] informally, though. ;) This doesn't
make sense, but my father used to be called Pulock in
school, so there. :))
As for Christian, the straight Jovification would be
Cristsane [kriS'tsa:n] or Cristsan ['kriSts@(n)], which of
course is rather ugly. Therefore, the actual development
is Crixane [kri'Sa:n], Crixan ['kriS@(n)] or just Crix
[kriS]. Thalmann can become Tauman ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] or maybe
Taumanne [taw'man].
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:11:47 +0100
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Or maybe it's a whole different phoneme! Something
> like */C/, maybe...
Didn't ancient Egyptian have [C]?
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:39:34 -0800
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Article on Artificial Languages
I just got word of an article that's to appear in Routledge's
Encyclopedia of Linguistics--a two volume set:
http://www.routledge-ny.com/ref/linguistics/
I heard that there was going to be an article on artificial
languages, and a professor here at UCSD (an Esperantist)
sent it as an attachment. So I read it. And uploaded it
here:
http://ling.ucsd.edu/~djp/dlstuff/esperantic.pdf
I think it's about four pages long. It discusses, amongst
many other fascinating topics:
(1) Various auxiliary languages
(2) Attempts at regularizing old European languages
(3) Volapuk
(4) Esperanto
And that's it. This is how artificial languages are being
represented in a major linguistic work. Sally: How's that
book coming?
-David
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:51:24 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
On 9 Mar 2005, at 2.33 pm, Christian Thalmann wrote:
> John Cowen: Johan [jo:n], obviously. There's also the
> variants Jandse [jandz] and Jondse [jAndz] from
> Johannes. Cowen: Maybe Cauven ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] Incidentally,
> I always thought you were pronounced /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/.
The traditional pronunciation is indeed the one you given. John,
however, tells a story wherein his father's PE teacher (I think)
regularly mispronounced it as Cow-en, and the pronunciation stuck.
(Note for instance John's name in Lojban is _la djan kau,n_, as you can
see from e.g.
<http://www.lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/pref.html>.)
--
Tristan.
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:58:52 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 03:33:54 -0000, Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Barry Garcia: Is that derived from Bernhard? In that case,
> Bernarde [bEr'nard], the alteration Bendrade
> [ben'dra:d], Beorran ['bErr@(n)], or Benne [bEn] for
> short. Garsija [EMAIL PROTECTED]'si:] or even [gar'si:a] for the
> language-conscious.
I've seen several conflicting origins for my first name. It's a common
Irish name, supposedly and what i've read is this:
- A Derivation of Barruch
- A Celtic word meaning "marksman" (I assume Irish.)
- Also from a Celtic word meaning "fair hair": "Barry" is derived
from "Bairre", a nickname for Fionnbharr ("Fair head")
Incidentally, I was named after a Jewish doctor from New York who
delivered my brother and I :).
--
And they don't give the answers at the end of the test
So you can't simply stand there and hope for the best
So wake me up at the border when we reach Mexico
I'll tell you a secret I don't even know...
King of the Jailhouse - Aimee Mann
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:43:45 -0800
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: long consonants
--- Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > --- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I'd want to ask if much languages distinguish
> long
> > > and short consonants
> >...
> > Consonant lengthening, called 'gemination' is
> found in
> > Finnish, and I think a few Semetic languages. It's
> > uncommon, but not that much so.
>
> Uncommon? That's not what I would say. To travel
> around the world,
> naming a few not-so-unknown langs: it exists in
> Finnish, Estonian,
> Japanese, Arabic, Greenlandic, Inuktitut, Swiss
> German, and many
> others. (And I'm sure I forgot a few other famous
> ones.)
>
> I'd say it's quite common.
>
I stand corrected, and bow to your superior linguistic knowledge.
-The Sock
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:17:33 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Article on Artificial Languages
----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>I just got word of an article that's to appear in Routledge's
> Encyclopedia of Linguistics--a two volume set:
>
> http://www.routledge-ny.com/ref/linguistics/
>
> I heard that there was going to be an article on artificial
> languages, and a professor here at UCSD (an Esperantist)
> sent it as an attachment. So I read it. And uploaded it
> here:
>
> http://ling.ucsd.edu/~djp/dlstuff/esperantic.pdf
>
> I think it's about four pages long. It discusses, amongst
> many other fascinating topics:
>
> (1) Various auxiliary languages
> (2) Attempts at regularizing old European languages
> (3) Volapuk
> (4) Esperanto
Yeah. Read it.
> And that's it. This is how artificial languages are being
> represented in a major linguistic work. Sally: How's that
> book coming?
The less you see of me, the more I'm getting done. :) The Survey was really
helpful, thanks, guys.
S.
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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:15:22 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: long consonants
Henrik Theiling wrote:
>bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > --- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I'd want to ask if much languages distinguish
>long
> > > and short consonants
> >...
> > Consonant lengthening, called 'gemination' is
>found in
> > Finnish, and I think a few Semetic languages. It's
> > uncommon, but not that much so.
>
>Uncommon? That's not what I would say. To travel
>around the world,
>naming a few not-so-unknown langs: it exists in
>Finnish, Estonian,
>Japanese, Arabic, Greenlandic, Inuktitut, Swiss
>German, and many
>others. (And I'm sure I forgot a few other famous
>ones.)
>
>I'd say it's quite common.
>
ok thanks for these explainations I now feel more rassured about using them
in conlangs and feeling them natural
but still a question: are long consonants... geminated consonants phonemic
in these languages?
Are geminated consonants opposed to the short ones enough to make that
pronounciating a germinated consonant as short would make the sense
different or would it remains the same?
And are they really phonemes in the sense it may be used in a root or do
they simply *occur* when you paste a word that ends with the same consonant
it is pasted to, like it is in the "penknife" example Sanghyeon Seo gave?
- Max
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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:27:58 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: long consonants
#1/Max wrote:
> Henrik Theiling wrote:
>
> To travel
> >around the world,
> >naming a few not-so-unknown langs: it exists in
> >Finnish, Estonian,
> >Japanese, Arabic, Greenlandic, Inuktitut, Swiss
> >German, and many
> >others. (And I'm sure I forgot a few other famous
> >ones.)
> >
> >I'd say it's quite common.
> >
>
> ok thanks for these explainations I now feel more rassured about using
> them
> in conlangs and feeling them natural
>
> but still a question: are long consonants... geminated consonants phonemic
> in these languages?
They can be considered phonemic, in that they distinguish meaning in minimal
pairs: Ital. anno [an:o] 'year' :: ano [ano] 'anus'. But it may depend on
how one defines "phonemic" and what theoretical model one uses...And of
course they can originate historically in a variety of ways-- assimilation
of cons. clusters, for ex.
IIRC in Arabic, gemination of C is a feature of some derivational processes.
>
> Are geminated consonants opposed to the short ones enough to make that
> pronounciating a germinated consonant as short would make the sense
> different or would it remains the same?
Yes, definitely. I don't have my lists handy, but there are lots of
min.pairs in the South Sulawesi languages-- some I remember, Bugis mita
['mita] 'to see' :: mitta ['mit:a] 'long time'; Makassarese, near-minimal:
tallu '3', allo 'sun' :: alu 'pestle', talo 'defeated'
>
> And are they really phonemes in the sense it may be used in a root or do
> they simply *occur* when you paste a word that ends with the same
> consonant
> it is pasted to, like it is in the "penknife" example Sanghyeon Seo gave?
That can happen too, but it's purely phonetic; in such cases there's always
a morpheme boundary. Again Bugis: aseng 'name' + -ku 'my' > asekku 'my
name'; + -mu 'your' asemmu. Similary in Arab. where the -l of the article
_al_ assimilates to certain initial consonants--
as/salaam '(the) peace', ar/rahman 'the omnipotent'.
Geminates are fascinating!!
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:22:32 +0900
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: long consonants
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:15:22 -0500, # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Are geminated consonants opposed to the short ones enough to make that
> pronounciating a germinated consonant as short would make the sense
> different or would it remains the same?
I think I already gave a minimal pair in Korean. Some other not-quite-minimal
examples:
[tasima] (sea tangle) [simmaJi] (ginseng digger)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Korean lute) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (inspecting question)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (to lead, head, take care of) [EMAIL PROTECTED]@da] (to go
across)
There are more examples involving [ll], which I condiser a geminate, but this
is not phonemic as [l] alone doesn't surface in Korean. Underlying [l] alone
between vowels becomes [4] (alveolar flap as in American "water" or "better").
Therefore we transcribe English [r] as /l/ [4], and English [l] as
/ll/ [ll], except
initially, where /l/ remains [l]. So "holy" becomes "holli", etc.
Seo Sanghyeon
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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:32:50 +0000
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: long consonants
Henrik Theiling wrote:
>Hi!
>
>bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>
>>--- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'd want to ask if much languages distinguish long
>>>and short consonants
>>>
>>>
>>...
>>Consonant lengthening, called 'gemination' is found in
>>Finnish, and I think a few Semetic languages. It's
>>uncommon, but not that much so.
>>
>>
>
>Uncommon? That's not what I would say. To travel around the world,
>naming a few not-so-unknown langs: it exists in Finnish, Estonian,
>Japanese, Arabic, Greenlandic, Inuktitut, Swiss German, and many
>others. (And I'm sure I forgot a few other famous ones.)
>
>I'd say it's quite common.
>
>
In Estonian, it's actually used to mark the Illative case.
eg.
Ma lähen kinno
Ma lähe-n kinno
1s go-1s cinema.ILL
I am going to the cinema
but:
Ma olen kinos
Ma ole-n kino-s
1s be-1s cinema-INESS
I am in the Cinema
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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:25:53 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: long consonants
On Mar 9, 2005, at 7:15 AM, # 1 wrote:
> but still a question: are long consonants... geminated consonants
> phonemic in these languages?
> Are geminated consonants opposed to the short ones enough to make that
> pronounciating a germinated consonant as short would make the sense
> different or would it remains the same?
> And are they really phonemes in the sense it may be used in a root or
> do
> they simply *occur* when you paste a word that ends with the same
> consonant it is pasted to, like it is in the "penknife" example
> Sanghyeon Seo gave?
> - Max
In the Semitic languages, geminated consonants are modifications of the
non-geminated ones, with semantic meaning. So it's a phonemic
difference, but not in the sense that /t/ and /tt/ are completely
separate independent phonemes.
For example:
the root |QPTz| in Hebrew.
In the _pa`al_ (G; "Simple") paradigm:
/k>apats)>/ [k>Ofats)>] "he jumped"
In the _pi`eil_ (D; "Intensive") paradigm:
/k>ippets)>/ [k>ippets)>] "he hopped around"
the root |GNB| in Hebrew.
In the _pa`al_ paradigm:
/ganab/ [gOnav] "he stole"
In a 'job' pattern:
/gannab/ [gannOv] "(a) thief"
the root |ZBN| in Aramaic.
(sorry, i can't remember the exact vowel qualities)
In the _pe`al_ (G) paradigm:
/z b n/ "buy"
In the D paradigm:
/z bb n/ "sell"
Btw:
G = simple paradigm (Hebrew PA`AL, Arabic FA`ALA, Aramaic [EMAIL PROTECTED])
D = paradigm with geminated middle root consonant
-Stephen (Steg)
"and it's a heave-ho! hi-ho! coming down the plains
stealing wheat and barley and all the other grains
and it's a ho-hey! hi-hey! farmers bar your doors
when you see the jolly roger on regina's mighty shores"
~ from 'the last saskatchewan pirate'
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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:56:27 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Mar 9, 2005, at 5:11 AM, Steven Williams wrote:
> --- Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Or maybe it's a whole different phoneme! Something
>> like */C/, maybe...
> Didn't ancient Egyptian have [C]?
Not sure... I seem to remember it had something along the lines of /c/,
though. (transliterated |tj|). As well as the voiced equivalent.
-Stephen (Steg)
"it's a *thatch* hatchet!"
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Message: 17
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:55:25 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Mar 9, 2005, at 4:38 AM, Steven Williams wrote:
> I heard it posited that the definite article /al-/ was
> /*hal-/ at some point in both Hebrew and Arabic, and
> the two langauges just dropped a different phomene in
> each of their respective cases. Makes some sense, at least...
That seems to be the most common theory, from what i've seen. I
learned a few more controversial ones in the class i took, one of which
i adopted for my Semiticonlang.
-Stephen (Steg)
"it's a *thatch* hatchet!"
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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:49:17 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
Quoting Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > If [to~:] is correct, the most natural adaption to Meghean would be
> _Toñh_
> > [toG~], I suppose.
>
> [G~]? That's rather original, albeit Orkish-sounding to me...
I'm positive I've never seen an orclang with nasalized fricatives. :p
> kinda like the velar analogon to /F/. I liked it better when
> Meghean nasals didn't lenit. And since we're at it, I'm also
> not fond of the looks of ñ, though I believe you've had it
> before. But it's your lang after all...
The _ñ_ has been in all along. I'm not terribly happy with it either - it's the
only diacritic'd letter, for a start - but the realistic alternative is using
'k' or 'q' for [N], either of which seems overly perverse to me, not to speak
of 'kh' or 'qh' for [G~], or, horror of horrors, 'kc' or 'qc' for [Nk].
I kind of like the nasal frics. They give rise to some very neat alterations. :)
What did you think of the introduction of [h]? I must say I'm rather proud of
alterations like _tash_ [tah] ~ _tans_ [tans].
Your name, BTW, would most straightforwardly be adapted as Cris-Tiean Tal-Man
[kris.tSi.jan tal.man] or Cris-Tean [kris.tSan]. In normal usage, the hyphens
would be dropped, of course. In fact, I've not yet decided whether a
hyphen-equivalent is used at all in the native script.
Incidentally, I'm considering making [G~] > [Z~] before front vowels. Would make
sense, since [G] > [Z] in the same position.
Andreas
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Message: 19
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:28:33 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
* Christian Thalmann said on 2005-03-09 04:33:54 +0100
> Many of these names have a traditional form in Jovian that
> has undergone the Grand Master Plan, while more recent
> phonetic imports are equally possible.
>
> Henrik: Hendric ['hendriC]
> Yep, I'm afraid the Jervans would hear your [R] as an
> /r/ and treat it that way. No Jervan would be caught
> dead pronouncing [nr] without an epenthetic [d]. So
> sue them. :)
This *is* great fun. Maybe somebody could make a page of our (=on-list)
languages translations of our names; could prettify the "On so-and-so
date someone wrote the following" lines when replying. It is rather
internal of course, so probably not suited for for instance langmaker.
It'd make a good standard translation-exercise too, testing the phonology
hard.
Actually, I find that learning about the phonology (and bits of culture
as above) this way much easier than reading charts of sound-letter
correspondences, easier to remember too.
t.
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Message: 20
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:29:16 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: long consonants
# 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>...
> Are geminated consonants opposed to the short ones enough to make that
> pronounciating a germinated consonant as short would make the sense
> different or would it remains the same?
Sure. An impressive example from Finnish:
http://tinyurl.com/3poxn
It has minimal pairs:
tulen tullen
tuleen tulleen
tuulen tuullen
tuuleen tuulleen
> And are they really phonemes in the sense it may be used in a root or do
> they simply *occur* when you paste a word that ends with the same consonant
> it is pasted to, like it is in the "penknife" example Sanghyeon Seo gave?
In many langs, they may be part of the root itself, yes. On others,
they mainly/only occur when words are composed and morphemes fuse.
There are no global constraints, I think. :-)
**Henrik
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Message: 21
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:35:46 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
On Monday 07 March 2005 20:56 +0100, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> > Just to play the game, examples from Tyl Sjok:
> > - 'Henrik': [hEn=Xik=],
> > - 'Björn': [djEl3n=] oder [gjEl3n=],
> > - 'Arthaey Angosii': [?al=sE ?ENgVsi] -- quite
> > close, I think. :-)
- Henrik: Henring ["hEn.4IN], because [k] -> [N] at the end
of words. Additionally, h/C/#_ often happens.
- Björn: Byern [bjE6n]
- Arthaey Angosii Artey Angosi ["a4t_dEI) AN"gosi]
(I even don't know how to pronounce that in English!)
> Rachel -> datsere [da.'tsE.4E]
> Robert -> doberet [dO.bE.'4Et]
> Roland -> doran ['dO.4an]
> Rudy -> duri ['du.4i] (you can see how [4] and [d] swap
> here) Lisa -> disa ['di.sa]
- Rachel: Reisyel ["4EI)[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Robert: Robern ["robE6n]
- Rudy: Rudi ["4ud_di]
- Lisa: Laysa ["lAI)sa]
As for some of the currently active people from the list ...
- Sally Caves: Seli Ceves ["seli "kevEs]
- Roger Mills: Rodya Mils ["4od_dja mils]
- Philip Newton: Vilim Nyutan ["vilim njut_dAn]
- Teoh: Teo ["t_deo]
- Jörg Rhiemeier: Yeng Rimaya [jEN 4i"maja]
- Andreas Johansson: Andreas Yohanson [An"d4eAs jo"hAnsOn]
(h/X/_[+back])
- Christian Thalmann: Cristyan Talman ["k4t_djAn "t_dalmAn]
- David Peterson: Devin Pitersan ["d_devin pi"t_de6sAn]
- Benct Philip Jonsson: Beng Vilim Yonson [bEN "vilim
"jonsOn]
- Thomas Weir: Tomas Ver ["t_domAs vE4]
- Carsten Becker: Carseten Becer [ka4"set_dEn "beke4]
- René Uittenbogaard: Rene Eytanbogarn ["4ene
"EI)tAn"boga4n]
- Tristan McLeay: Triseten Mecley [t4i"set_dEn me"klEI)]
- Isaac Penzev: Isang Pensem ["isAN "pEnsEm]
- Steg Belsky: Seteng Belseci [se"t_dEN bel"seki]
Carsten
--
Edatamanon le matahanarà benenoea ena 15-A7-58-11-2-19-41
ena Curan Tertanyan.
» http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 22
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:52:08 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
Quoting Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> - Andreas Johansson: Andreas Yohanson [An"d4eAs jo"hAnsOn]
> (h/X/_[+back])
It's worth noting that the 'h' in my surname is mute, and that the 'o' spells
[u:].
Andreas
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Message: 23
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:20:09 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:52:08 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Quoting Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> - Andreas Johansson: Andreas Yohanson [An"d4eAs jo"hAnsOn]
>> (h/X/_[+back])
>
>It's worth noting that the 'h' in my surname is mute, and that the 'o' spells
>[u:].
Oh. I didn't know that. It'd be "Yoansun" ["joAnsUn] then, or even possibly
["wAnsUn] because of [o, u] -> [w] sometimes.
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Message: 24
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:16:13 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
>
>>Andreas Johansson > Andræyas Yuhensun /6ndr&j6s juhi\nsun/ (3)
>
> [snip]
>
>>(3) or Yohanson /jQh6nsQn/.
>
>
> The later sounds alot like the usual German mangling of my surname.
>
> You couldn't have "Yuhanson" /juh6nsQn/?
No, that would break the vowel-harmony rules, and we can't do that,
can we? All vowels in a non-compound word must be either all high
or all low. While _yuh_ looks like a nice Sohlob word _(h)anson_
definitely does not(*), so that rules out the compound possibility.
(*)Possible, but not fitting the lámatyáve.
> Bent Feilip Unson [bEnt fejlIp UnsOn] (you may want to spell it Fílip
> [fejlIp])
Feilip is OK, not least since it is Fei in Mandarin.
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 25
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:23:47 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Chinese family names (was Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound
Recording of Asha'ille!))
Philip Newton wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:16:59 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>>"Yuansun" looks like it could be a Chinese name. Is it?
>
>
> So it appears; Google for it and you'll see it appears in connection
> with a couple of Chinese family names. Pretty rare, though, if Google
> frequency is any indication.
Iss there any online list of Chinese family names?
> And pronounce something like /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/, I'd guess.
[HAnsun]. [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be Yuensun.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Watch the Reply-To!
>
>
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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