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There are 18 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: A Conlang Sketch I uncovered
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Clockwise without clocks
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: A Conlang Sketch I uncovered
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: History of constructed languages
From: Mark Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: _Seven Last Words of Christ_
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: History of constructed languages
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Clockwise without clocks
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: History of constructed languages
From: JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Baby talk may help infants learn language
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Clockwise without clocks
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. LLL Monthly Update #03/2005
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Clockwise without clocks
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Clockwise without clocks
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Clockwise without clocks
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Clockwise without clocks
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Clockwise without clocks
From: "Jonathyn Bet'nct" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Clockwise without clocks
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Clockwise without clocks
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:24:57 +0000
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A Conlang Sketch I uncovered
>From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: A Conlang Sketch I uncovered
>Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:17:44 -0800
>
>Looking around some files on my computer, I came
>across an old sketch of a conlang. It's more of a
>collection of sentences, but I'll try to figure some
>things out to post here.
*reads* this is a sketch?
*goes pale* ooooh boy. I'm in trouble then.
but *you*, you did superbly. bravo.
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:35:07 -0700
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Clockwise without clocks
Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> Going back to the wheel, saying that clockwise is
>> turning left implies that
>> your speakers are focusing on the top end (9-3) of
>> the wheel. This might not
>> always be the case (maybe if they read
>> bottom-to-top, they might watch the
>> bottom of the wheel first?)
>
> Think not of the wheel but of the wagon. Clockwise is
> the wheel motion of a wagon which is moving to your
> right, so saying right-wheel, rather than clock-wise,
> makes perfect sense.
Ah. I don't know about "perfect" sense, but I see what you
mean here. The ordinary way to say that would be
right-_rolling_, no? Figured that an unusual choice
of word there referred to a different kind of action.
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:15:52 -0800
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A Conlang Sketch I uncovered
--- Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Looking around some files on my computer, I came
> > across an old sketch of a conlang. ...
> Looking at the sentences, it looks very much like
> Inuktitut and the
> sandhi/mutations look very reasonably (naturally)
> irregular. :-) But
> there seems to be no lexical resemblence, however --
> the stems and
> also the endings feel like Inuit, but aren't.
I do believe I wanted an Inuit feel when I made it, it
was some time ago, probably going on 4 years or so,
maybe more. What kinds of irregularity do you see? I
thought it seemed rather regular to me, but, I guess
I'm used to strange sandhi/mutations from having dealt
with Silindion for 8 years.
> Very nice! I like the feel of this language.
Yay! Thanks.
> > Vowels:
> > i u
> > e o
> > a
> >
> > (e and o seem rare)
>
> Inuit langs have /a i u/ with [e o] allophones of /i
> u/ in the
> presence of uvulars. Could it be this? Or are
> those really phonemes?
They seem to be really phonemes, they exist in the
following words/affixes of the corpus:
-ok stative verb
=qo interrogative clitic
wekib black-thing
Rulon (a name)
embo but, however
There's no real rhyme or reason to why they're in
these words, they just seem like they belong
there...much more phoneme like than allophonic.
> Further, the capital G reminds be of a strange velar
> phoneme in
> Kalaallisut that is written |G| by Sadock. It is a
> bit like /k/ but
> often behaves strangely in suffixation processes.
Yes, it's a strange phoneme, I think it's probably a
glottal stop in this language. It behaves weirdly too.
Take the copula and verbalizer that I'm going to talk
about now for an example of this weirdness.
1) Adjectives
Adjectives are basically a special class of verbs that
have two main forms:
a) ROOT-VERBALIZER-TENSE (predicative)
b) ROOT-(RELATIVE)-VERBALIZER-SUBORD. (attributive)
(the subordinate is an infix before the last
consonant of the verbalizer)
The verbalizer is a suffix that is identical to the
copula: "-saG"
Example:
wekib "black thing"
Predicative Adjective:
wekib-V-saG > wekibasa- "to be black"
Present : wekibasannui (wekibasaG-ngui)
Past : wekibasa'asak (wekibasaG-V-sak)
Future : wekibasa'asuq (wekibasaG-V-suq)
Immed. Future : wekibasabat (wekibasaG-pat)
Past Prog. : wekibasagu (wekibasaG-kuG)
Attributive Adjective:
wekib-V-sa.n.G > wekibasang "black" (presently)
wekib-naG-V-saG > wekimba'asa "which was black"
(formerly)
Now on to clitics
2) Clitics
(proclitics: saG "copula", taG "and")
(enclitics: =qo "interrogative", =da "not")
The copular proclitic _saG_ is placed before a
predicate nominal, and causes mutations to that
nominal and, sometimes undergoes some mutations. The
tense of the phrase is expressed on the predicate
nominal itself.
Examples:
a) ma sa bandannui "I am a story-teller"
ma "I"
saG "copula"
pandan-ngui "story.teller-present" (p > b after G)
b) dagann sa'a sanguqqusak "The man was your leader"
dagar "man" > dagann "the man"
saG-V (with connective vowel before "s")
sangun "chief"
-qu 2nd singular possessive sangun-qu > sanguqqu
-sak "past"
c) kapaqqinata sang mallubasak
"The dogs were ours" (literally "at us")
kapang "dog" > kapaqqit "dogs"
> kapaqqinVt "the dogs" + connective vowel before "s"
saG "copula" (G > ng before nasal, except "ng")
ma 1st singular > mal 1st plural
Locative: mal-sub > mallub "at us"
-----------------------------------------------
The other proclitic "taG" works the same way:
sangunn ta'a sangayut "the chief and his tribe"
sangun "chief" > sangunn "the chief"
taG-V (before "s")
sanga "tribe" (-y- is a liaison consonant)
-ut 3rd singular possessive
------------------------------------------------
The two enclitics attach to whatever word is being
negated (in the case of =da) or questioned (in the
case of =qo).
yaqa sa' upasupqo? "is it his?"
yaq "it" (with connective vowel)
saG copula (with glottal stop final before vowel)
upa "his" upasub "at him"
upasub=qo > upasupqo "at.him=interrogative"
---------------------------------------------------
Other than what I've already presented, the corpus
seems to have a derivation process in some of its
words:
qut/puk "sleep"
quppak "bed" (slept-in)
(slightly irregular semantics?)
quppukan "sleeper"
dawuk "give"
dawak "gift" (given)
dawukan "giver"
un/ng "see"
unn "vision" (seen)
unnan "prophet"
tup/mur "fight"
tumbar "war" (fought)
tumburan "warrior"
ya/tu "do, perform"
yata "performance" (done, performed)
yatun "performer"
sa/ngu "rule"
sanga "tribe" (ruled)
sangun "chief, lord"
pat/n "tell, say"
pand "story" (said, told)
pandan "story-teller"
ba/lus "name/be named"
balas "name"
balusan "celebrity"
...And that's it.
> Anyway. Is that lang polysynthetic? How's it
> inspired?
Doesn't really seem polysynthetic to me, no real noun
incorporation that I can see, but perhaps it might
have it, to some extent (outside of the corpus, but of
course, that's up to my imagination)
Inspired by looking at but knowing nothing about
Innuit and other such languages.
-Elliott
> **Henrik
>
__________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:22:00 +0000
From: Mark Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: History of constructed languages
Hi Conlangers,
I've been asked to take part in a radio interview about languages
constructed for works of dramatic fiction (to be broadcast on BBC Radio 4's
Front Row in the UK).
Presumably I've been tracked down because I was the brains behind the one
sentence that finally got used in the final cut of Hallmark's dreadfully
twee mini-series Dinotopia - the rest of the grammar they didn't want, but
it's a long story...
Anyway, I'm far from an expert, and I'd like to know what the first
constructed language for media use might've been. I'm not talking here about
Esperanto or Volapuek etc., but a fictional languages for use in fiction.
Any pointers would be very helpful.
Many thanks
Mark
Mark J. Jones
Department of Linguistics
University of Cambridge
http://kiri.ling.cam.ac.uk/mark
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:38:17 +0200
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: _Seven Last Words of Christ_
In Jovian...
> 1. Pater, dimitte illis, quia nesciunt, quid faciunt.
> Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are
> doing.
O pare, bitte ih, nan nau xin cod faehun.
[A ba:r bit i nan no Sin kA '[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Bitter| is still |diwitter| in my Babel text. I'll
have to do that over yet again. Hrmmm...
That reminds me to add the [dv]->[b] effect to mute
final -d sandhi. Work, work, work...
> 2. Hodie mecum eris in paradiso.
> Today you will be with me in paradise.
Hoe is ere cun mic in pardisun.
[hAj iz e:r kum miC im [EMAIL PROTECTED]'di:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 3. Mulier, ecce filius tuus.
> Woman, behold your son.
O feime, bla tuh fiju.
[A vejm bla tu fi:]
The somewhat ugly |bla| is from French voilà. Maybe I
should look around for a better alternative.
> 4. Deus meus, Deus meus, utquid dereliquisti me?
> My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
O mih Dé, o mih Dé, cure haes xesse mic?
[A vi de: A vi de: ku:r hES Ses miC]
> 5. Sitio.
> I thirst.
Hau side.
[haw si:d]
> 6. Consummatum est.
> It is finished.
Ix pervicte.
[iS pEr'viCt]
> 7. In manus tuas, Domine, commendo spiritum meum.
> Into your hands, Lord, I commend my spirit.
In tus manes, o Doemu, hezo min pfirde.
[in duz ma:nz A zAjm 'he:zA mim pfird]
-- Christian Thalmann
--
Sparen beginnt mit GMX DSL: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:30:05 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: History of constructed languages
Mark Jones wrote:
> Hi Conlangers,
>
> I've been asked to take part in a radio interview about languages
> constructed for works of dramatic fiction (to be broadcast on BBC
> Radio 4's
> Front Row in the UK).
>
> Presumably I've been tracked down because I was the brains behind the one
> sentence that finally got used in the final cut of Hallmark's dreadfully
> twee mini-series Dinotopia - the rest of the grammar they didn't want,
> but
> it's a long story...
>
> Anyway, I'm far from an expert, and I'd like to know what the first
> constructed language for media use might've been. I'm not talking here
> about
> Esperanto or Volapuek etc., but a fictional languages for use in fiction.
Well, you've obviously got Tolkien. That's one of the early examples -
from the 1910s onwards. That's the earliest I can think of, at least
with a grammar of any size.
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:03:23 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Clockwise without clocks
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--- Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
>
> Going back to the wheel, saying that clockwise is
> turning left implies that
> your speakers are focusing on the top end (9-3) of
> the wheel. This might not
> always be the case (maybe if they read
> bottom-to-top, they might watch the
> bottom of the wheel first?)
>>Think not of the wheel but of the wagon. Clockwise is
>>the wheel motion of a wagon which is moving to your
>>right, so saying right-wheel, rather than clock-wise,
>>makes perfect sense.
--gary
--- End forwarded message ---
But what of those cultures that don't know the wheel? That's why I
prefer using the sun as the referent for "clockwise" motion. I
wonder if there is any lexeme in the American Indian cultures for
this concept, prior to colonization.
I have translated these into Senyecan as:
suulámßin - adj., sun-path, i.e., clockwise.
suulámßëvi - adv.
àntïësuulámßin - adj., against-sun-path, i.e.,
counterclockwise.
àntïësuulámßëvi - adv.
BTW, I never heard the word "deosil," although I am acquainted with
widdershins. "Widdershins" is of Germanic origin meaning "counter-
course." Can anyone enlighten me as to the etymology of "deosil"?
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:08:47 -0600
From: JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: History of constructed languages
> Mark Jones wrote:
>
> > Hi Conlangers,
> >
> > I've been asked to take part in a radio interview about languages
> > constructed for works of dramatic fiction (to be broadcast on BBC
> > Radio 4's
> > Front Row in the UK).
> > [snip]
> >
> > Anyway, I'm far from an expert, and I'd like to know what the first
> > constructed language for media use might've been. I'm not talking here
> > about
> > Esperanto or Volapuek etc., but a fictional languages for use in fiction.
>
> Well, you've obviously got Tolkien. That's one of the early examples -
> from the 1910s onwards. That's the earliest I can think of, at least
> with a grammar of any size.
There are previous examples, but they're much less developed. I'm
pretty sure that there are fragments of language that appear in
_Gulliver's Travels_ by Swift, but I doubt that there is much of a
grammar behind them.
I wonder if non-English literatures provide any other examples.
--
JS Bangs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://jaspax.com
"I could buy you a drink
I could tell you all about it
I could tell you why I doubted
And why I still believe."
- Pedro the Lion
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:15:19 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Baby talk may help infants learn language
http://www.reutershealth.com/archive/2005/03/31/eline/links/20050331elin011.html
(Warning: this link will become unusable in about six weeks.)
Interesting stuff.
To clarify my position vis-a-vis this list: I'll continue posting to it
occasionally, and I'll read followups to my posts via the Web site, though
not typically immediately.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! `Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:47:17 -0800
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Clockwise without clocks
[Multiple replies to keep total posts down]
On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 07:35:07PM -0700, Muke Tever wrote:
> Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
> >Think not of the wheel but of the wagon. Clockwise is
> >the wheel motion of a wagon which is moving to your
> >right, so saying right-wheel, rather than clock-wise,
> >makes perfect sense.
>
> Ah. I don't know about "perfect" sense, but I see what you
> mean here. The ordinary way to say that would be
> right-_rolling_, no? Figured that an unusual choice
> of word there referred to a different kind of action.
[...]
Sorry, I should've said "rolling" instead of "wheeling". I was trying
to describe a possible transliteration from the conlang, where the
rotation words would derive from 'wheel' rather than 'clock'.
On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 04:03:23PM -0000, caeruleancentaur wrote:
> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
> >>Think not of the wheel but of the wagon. Clockwise is
> >>the wheel motion of a wagon which is moving to your
> >>right, so saying right-wheel, rather than clock-wise,
> >>makes perfect sense.
>
> --gary
> --- End forwarded message ---
>
> But what of those cultures that don't know the wheel?
Are there any (real) cultures that don't know the wheel? I can't think
of any offhand.
> That's why I prefer using the sun as the referent for "clockwise"
> motion. I wonder if there is any lexeme in the American Indian
> cultures for this concept, prior to colonization.
[...]
You mean the pre-colonial Amerindian cultures don't know the wheel?
That's interesting.
T
--
Never step over a puddle, always step around it. Chances are that whatever
made it is still dripping.
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:50:20 +0200
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: LLL Monthly Update #03/2005
Hallo!
Another month has passed, and here's what happened in the League.
Angel introduced himself/herself and the idea of Continental English,
which (s)he elaborated on near the end of the month.
Joseph Bridwell asked about Stargate Egyptian (doesn't really belong
into the LLL, though), and Philip posted an update on Maerik.
I also updated the wiki page a bit.
Greetings,
Jörg.
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:03:32 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Clockwise without clocks
On Wednesday, March 30, 2005, at 08:08 , Elyse M. Grasso wrote:
> On Wednesday 30 March 2005 01:49 pm, caeruleancentaur wrote:
>> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "Elyse M. Grasso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>> There's a reason north hemispere clocks run the direction they do...
>>
>>> Ack.... note to self, do not try to type while eating lunch.
>>> That should be sunwise (deosil) and widdershins.
I thought the Scots word for 'sunwise' was spelled _deasil_ - it is BTW
derived from Gaelic _deisiel_.
>> That's the best way to describe it IMO. However, you may need to
>> make
>> another note to yourself. "North hemisphere clocks"? Do clocks in
>> the southern hemisphere run widdershins??? :-)
Depends what you mean by 'widdershins' (another Scots word - also spelled
'withershins' or 'widershins'). In the strictly narrow meaning "contrary
to the course of the sun", then, yes, mechanical clocks do run withershins
in the southern hemisphere (tho I believe one or two individuals have
constructed mechanical clocks that run 'anticlockwise'). Sundials must run
sunwise (deasil) and, thus, 'anticlockwise' in the southern hemisphere :)
Thinks - Why the fondness for Scots dialect when talking about movement of
sun, shadows etc.? What's wrong with plain ol' English 'sunwise' and
'anti-sunwise/counter-sunwise' ?
[snip]
> Sunwise and antisunwise are opposite south of the equator, so since
> clocks in
> the southern hemisphere run clockwise they are running (locally)
> widdershins
> if widdershins is defined by the motion of the sun.
Spot on!
> For other definitions
> (always turning right (or left)) one might argue that widdershins does not
> change phase when you cross the equator. Visualize a sundial...
The trouble with withershins/wid(d)ershins (apart from dialect variation)
is that it is often used loosely to mean 'in the wrong way, in a contrary
direction', which in fact was the original meaning of the word (from Low
German _weddersins_). Cf. Old English _wither_ "against"/ and L.G. _sind_
"direction", O.E. síth (<-- *sinT) "journey").
==============================================
On Thursday, March 31, 2005, at 01:02 , H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 04:36:51PM -0700, Muke Tever wrote:
>> H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 12:17:48PM -0500, Geoff Horswood wrote:
>>>> So how would you express the ideas of "clockwise" and "anticlockwise"
>>>> in a
>>>> culture that doesn't have clocks?
Like the way our culture is going :)
It is surprising how unfamiliar many youngsters are with analog clock
movements and indeed cannot tell the time from such clocks - tho perhaps
with increasing use of digital time-pieces, it's not so surprising. It
used to be a standard exercise in teaching modern languages to give
pictures of clock faces for students to give the time in the appropriate
language. When I tried this some 30 years back, some students were quite
lost & since that time, unfamiliarity with analog clocks has increased.
>>> How about the movement of a wheel, whether rotating to the left or
>>> right? (Left-wheeling and right-wheeling for clockwise/counter-
>>> clockwise). Should be pretty unambiguous, I think.
>>
>> Unambiguous? Isn't that the ambiguity "clockwise" and "counterclockwise"
>> are trying to resolve?
>
> By unambiguous I meant that it is clear from the example itself which
> rotation is left-wheeling and which is right-wheeling, as opposed to
> something like "clockwise" and "counterclockwise", which requires that
> the listener have prior knowledge of which of the two possible ways
> the clock turns.
Exactly - quite often, in fact, I find I need to explain what clockwise
means :)
[snip]
>> Going back to the wheel, saying that clockwise is turning left implies
>> that
>> your speakers are focusing on the top end (9-3) of the wheel. This might
>> not
>> always be the case (maybe if they read bottom-to-top, they might watch
>> the
>> bottom of the wheel first?)
> [...]
>
> No, the example is that of *rolling* wheels, not of stationary turning
> wheels.
Quite so. In any case, who focuses on just the top or the bottom of a
wheel?
> When a wheel rolls to the left, its rotation (relative to your
> point of view) is always left-wheeling (clockwise), and when it rolls
> to the right, it is always right-wheeling (anti-clockwise).
Yep - and if you're uncertain, all you have to do is to take a coin from
your pocket and roll it slowing along your desktop, table-top or whatever
:)
> You're not
> deciding left/right based on which part of the wheel you look at;
> you're deciding it based on the motion of the wheel *as a whole*
> across the ground.
Yep - wheels are a bit useless if they do not move as a whole :D
And the advantage of describing the movement by rightwise or leftwise
wheel movement is that it's the same whether you're in the northern or
southern hemisphere, whether your planet is in a solar system with just
one sun or a couple of suns rotating about each other etc.
===============================================
On Wednesday, March 30, 2005, at 09:42 , Christian Thalmann wrote:
> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> So how would you express the ideas of "clockwise" and
>> "anticlockwise" in a
>> culture that doesn't have clocks?
>
> The mathematical way to describe those is "lefthanded"
> and "righthanded". If you look straight onto the
> outstretched thumb of your right hand, the fingers curl
> around it counter-clockwise, and vice versa for the left
> hand.
True - but a wheel rolling rightwards turns clockwise :)
> The direction of the axis is important, since any
> clockwise rotation looks anticlockwise when viewed from
> the other side.
Very true - which is why the Latinate adjectives 'dextrorse' and
'sinistrorse' are not really satisfactory, as they have had opposite
meanings at different times. Of 'dextrorse', my dictionary say:
"rising spirally and turning to the left, i.e. crossing an outside
observer's field of view from left to right upwards (like a screw-nail):
formerly used in the contrary sense (sinistrorse)."
There is a similar entry for 'sinistrorse' :)
That's why, I guess, it's important to know whether we are talking about
righthanded & lefthanded spirals or screw threads, or we are talking about
movement of _rolling_ wheels. At least with a rolling wheel, not only does
a clockwise rotation look anticlockwise when viewed from the other side,
it also rolls along in the opposite direction!
Maybe 'dextrivolvent' (cockwise) and & 'sinistrivolvent' (anti-clockwise)
;)
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:09:26 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Clockwise without clocks
H.S. Teoh et al. wrote:
> >
> > But what of those cultures that don't know the wheel?
>
> Are there any (real) cultures that don't know the wheel? I can't think
> of any offhand.
>
>
> > That's why I prefer using the sun as the referent for "clockwise"
> > motion. I wonder if there is any lexeme in the American Indian
> > cultures for this concept, prior to colonization.
> [...]
>
> You mean the pre-colonial Amerindian cultures don't know the wheel?
> That's interesting.
>
Apparently not. Bear in mind, until the horse was brought in by the
Spaniards, there were no adequate beasts of burden. (Dogs and people can't
pull much; llamas are difficult, plus an Andean mountainside isn't someplace
you'd want to be in a wheeled vehicle....). Mexican/Mayan cultures, maybe--
IIRC ceramic wheeled toys (or miniature models?) have been found.
I was pondering-- aside from the sun, what other rotating things would be
known in a non-wheeled culture? Maybe circle dances (in which the direction
might be ritually important); other shamanistic rituals, where again the
correct rotation of ritual items/stirring things in pots etc. might be
crucial. You stir your eye of newt mixture one direction, well and good; the
wrong way, uh-oh!!
Circle dances: isn't it a bit counter-intuitive (since "clockwise" is
essentially right-moving) that if you're facing the center, you dance to
your _left_; or, OTOH in a line facing 90° from the center, you would first
have turned to your _left_, then dance forward. Perhaps even after acquiring
wheels and clocks, "clockwise" might still be translated as "in the manner
of the XXXX dance".
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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:25:52 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Clockwise without clocks
Addendum:
Maybe we should be thinking of "wheel/cart-forward or -backward" motion???
And a new, perverse thought: how to describe a "figure-8"? (In Kash, it
might be an image of the letters "i" and "u" superimposed on each other.
Now, what to call it.....moyot (pattern) iyu-uwi [iyu?uwi] ???)
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:19:15 EST
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Clockwise without clocks
In a message dated 3/30/2005 7:03:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>Think not of the wheel but of the wagon. Clockwise is
>the wheel motion of a wagon which is moving to your
>right, so saying right-wheel, rather than clock-wise,
>makes perfect sense.
Ok, that's perfectly clear now.
Of course, it assumes the language in question has words for "right" and
"left."
Are those universal? I seem to recall reading that some cultures did not
distinguish right & left.
Doug
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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:40:32 -0800
From: "Jonathyn Bet'nct" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Clockwise without clocks
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:19:15 EST, Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Of course, it assumes the language in question has words for "right" and
> "left."
> Are those universal? I seem to recall reading that some cultures did not
> distinguish right & left.
If they don't distinguish between left and right, would they need to
distinguish between clockwise and counterclockwise?
--
Hasta la pasta,
Jonathyn Bet'nct.
--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_
I tried the real world once; didn't really care for it.
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:13:38 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Clockwise without clocks
--- Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 3/30/2005 7:03:37 PM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> >Think not of the wheel but of the wagon. Clockwise
> is
> >the wheel motion of a wagon which is moving to your
> >right, so saying right-wheel, rather than
> clock-wise,
> >makes perfect sense.
>
> Ok, that's perfectly clear now.
> Of course, it assumes the language in question has
> words for "right" and
> "left."
<snip>
OK, so when you are sitting by the fire at the camp of
old Banuch and Rijam Tal goes by leading his oxcart to
the marketplace, you describe the motion of a rotating
object as "Banuch sees Tal going to market." (In the
spirit of "Darmak and Jalad at Tenagra.")
--gary
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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:11:40 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Clockwise without clocks
All of these arguments about if wheels turn left or right or things
roll left Vs. right when you're in a cart or whatever, is why I
suggested "forward rolling" and "backward rolling" - from the point
of view of someone looking at it from the side. If you take a round
log from a tree, and push it away along the ground it rolls forward -
clockwise to an observer looking at it. If you pull it back to you the
thing rolls backward, counter-clockwise to someone looking at it.
I feel that this topic has been getting increasingly more complex than
it needs to be.
Deosil and Widdershins works if you're taking the words whole cloth,
but no one had defined them, which is what I think the OP was asking,
how would you translate the words. I've only see Ray define what those
terms mean. If you propsed "Deosil" and "widdershins" to my Saalangal,
they'd then ask you "That's nice, but we have no idea what that
means".
--
Sindaká, hasemangyara tensa ku kang, taana inu jumosara ika wangkane
abarasara ika.
Nasay, haalingyaay kria siga ting seu mayuhaw. Saban, hamakotraak kria
ku kriang ura bansan.
Ating ura sindaká, ating ura sindaká, ane haligansara kria ku ting?
Ikudsara ati. Setsusaan san.
Sindaká, sinokyara ati seu kriang ura nga mura ating ura kuyan .
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