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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
From: "Jonathyn Bet'nct" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
From: "Jonathyn Bet'nct" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Rejected posting to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: "L-Soft list server at Brown University (1.8d)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Question about Latin E and Slavic yat'
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
From: "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Japanese & Romans Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Japanese & Romans Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. OT: "Rejected" Conlang Posts
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: 2 Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 19:46:32 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
On Sat, Oct 30, 2004 at 09:26:01AM -0400, Carsten Becker wrote:
> Hello?! I know that my use of "/.../" was not correctly, but could I please
> have an answer on my actual questions? Replace "/.../" with "[...]". If you
> want YA(E)PT, please make a splitoff.
For the record, I didn't answer your question because I don't know the
answer. I wouldn't have bothered posting just to correct the /.../
vs [...] thing; I only added that as an aside in my post, whose primary
purpose was to ask why some Germans are "ashamed" to say [T]. Feeling
ashamed about producing a phone just strikes me as odd. I still don't
understand it.
Nor do I understand why you're annoyed. Several folks did actually
answer your question, including BPJ as you indicate; if the others want
to take the thread in a different direction, well, that's life on a
mailing list.
-Marcos
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 19:54:36 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
> > But Jan is not talking about encoding: I believe he meant that his
> > browser correctly picked up the encoding, but was not smart enough
> > to choose a font that included all the characters used on that
> > page, and requested help.
But that is not the page author's help. It is the height of presumption
on the part of such an author to make any assumptions about what fonts
are available on the system being used to browse the page. Doing so
via the <font> tag is especially wrong, since it no longer exists in standard
HTML. :)
> Well, perhaps the real problem is IE6.0. Is there a way to tell it to
> use a different font when a page is encoded UTF-8?
IE 6 doesn't seem to have such an option. In Tools->Internet Options->Fonts
you can pick which font to use for each script, but all Latin-based
scripts are grouped together under a single font. Perhaps you could
find one you like for general use that is more complete? There might
even be a more complete version of the very font you currently use
available from Microsoft . . .
-Marcos
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 17:39:04 -0700
From: "Jonathyn Bet'nct" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 04:54 PM, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> Doing so via the <font> tag is especially wrong, since it no longer
> exists in standard HTML. :)
YES IT DOES! It may not exist in HTML 4.0, but screw HTML 4.0! The
Internet bureaucrats have been screwing us over by taking out FONT and
EMBED and these other things that have been around for ages, and I've
had it! I'm using FONT if you want me to or not!
Don't get me wrong, I love CSS. I absolutely love it. But they
shouldn't deprecate FONT just because something better albeit more
complicated comes along. There needs to be a simpler option for those
people who are smart enough to learn HTML but too stupid to learn CSS.
Hasta la pasta,
Jonathyn Bet'nct
--
Web site: http://kreativekorp.cjb.net
AIM: tamchel215718
Yahoo: jonrelay
MSN: jonnie1717
ICQ: 76731065 Why would I need an icy cucumber?
I'm hardly ever on IM, but I'll usually answer my e-mail in less than a
day.
When life gives you lemons, you make lemonade, and when the going gets
tough... the tough make lemonade!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:15:28 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
On Sat, Oct 30, 2004 at 05:39:04PM -0700, Jonathyn Bet'nct wrote:
> On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 04:54 PM, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> >Doing so via the <font> tag is especially wrong, since it no longer
> >exists in standard HTML. :)
>
> YES IT DOES! It may not exist in HTML 4.0, but screw HTML 4.0!
Nice attitude.
> The Internet bureaucrats have been screwing us over by taking out FONT
> and EMBED and these other things that have been around for ages, and
> I've had it! I'm using FONT if you want me to or not!
Well, fine, good for you. It will no doubt continue to work forever,
but it's nevertheless built on a faulty presumption: that it makes sense
for HTML markup to include presentation instructions. This was not the
goal of the HTML design, but a side effect of the browser wars, where
Netscape and Microsoft added elements to HTML left and right to try and
convince more page authors to design specifically for their browser and
thereby get more people to use it.
HTML is supposed to be browser-neutral. Even if you assume that
everybody in the world who browses the web on a computer is using IE on
Windows - which while not true, is true to a high degree of
approximation - you still have people browsing the web on PalmPilots,
cell phones, etc. Plus you have people who are visually impaired who
therefore either don't care about fonts at all because they can't see
them, or very much care about fonts because they can only read certain
ones.
Presenting the document in an appropriate way for the user is the
browser's job, not the page author's, and when the page author tries to
do the browser's job it usually makes the browser's job harder, not
easier.
As for <embed>, that was never in standard HTML at all; it was always an
IE-specific element. Since its usual use is ActiveX controls, that's
not much of a hardship, of course; if you're using ActiveX controls in
your page, you've already decided to throw compatibility out the window.
Finally, I disagree with the premise that CSS is harder than HTML. It's
different, but not harder. It actually makes a lot of things easier. I
mean, if I'm going to specify a font for my page, I'd rather do it once
rather than many, many times with multiple <font> tags all over the
place.
-Marcos
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 19:33:46 -0700
From: "Jonathyn Bet'nct" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 06:15 PM, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 30, 2004 at 05:39:04PM -0700, Jonathyn Bet'nct wrote:
>> The Internet bureaucrats have been screwing us over by taking out FONT
>> and EMBED and these other things that have been around for ages, and
>> I've had it! I'm using FONT if you want me to or not!
>
> Well, fine, good for you. It will no doubt continue to work forever,
> but it's nevertheless built on a faulty presumption: that it makes
> sense
> for HTML markup to include presentation instructions. This was not the
> goal of the HTML design, but a side effect of the browser wars, where
> Netscape and Microsoft added elements to HTML left and right to try and
> convince more page authors to design specifically for their browser and
> thereby get more people to use it.
I know presentation wasn't the goal of HTML, but the cold hard truth is
that on today's Internet presentation is half the web site. In most
instances there probably isn't any valid reason for controlling
formatting, but there are certainly cases in which it would be useful.
> As for <embed>, that was never in standard HTML at all; it was always
> an
> IE-specific element. Since its usual use is ActiveX controls, that's
> not much of a hardship, of course; if you're using ActiveX controls in
> your page, you've already decided to throw compatibility out the
> window.
I've read that it has caused some grief with Flash animations and
QuickTime video, which are not IE-specific at all. <EMBED> never was
standard HTML, I know that; but it was still supported and used, and
when it was pulled out from underneath us it caused unnecessary
trouble. (Not to say that the introduction of <EMBED> in the first case
didn't cause unnecessary trouble, either. :) )
> Finally, I disagree with the premise that CSS is harder than HTML.
> It's
> different, but not harder. It actually makes a lot of things easier.
> I
> mean, if I'm going to specify a font for my page, I'd rather do it once
> rather than many, many times with multiple <font> tags all over the
> place.
I didn't mean that CSS was necessarily harder. It's just that C-style
syntax (brackets, braces, commas, and semicolons everywhere) tends to
scare beginners away.
And yes, it certainly does make things easier with regards to making
site-wide changes.
I would like to apologize for the way I responded to this thread; I
wanted to make a point but I handled it badly. I'm now willing to calm
down and have a more mature conversation.
Hasta la pasta,
Jonathyn Bet'nct
--
Web site: http://kreativekorp.cjb.net
AIM: tamchel215718
Yahoo: jonrelay
MSN: jonnie1717
ICQ: 76731065 Why would I need an icy cucumber?
I'm hardly ever on IM, but I'll usually answer my e-mail in less than a
day.
Apple II Forever!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 01:02:18 -0400
From: "L-Soft list server at Brown University (1.8d)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Rejected posting to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You are not authorized to send mail to the CONLANG list from your
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generates slightly different addresses, but LISTSERV has no way to associate
this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance or if you have
any question regarding the policy of the CONLANG list, please contact the list
owners: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:42:11 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
On Oct 31, 2004, at 1:54 AM, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> But that is not the page author's help. It is the height of
> presumption
> on the part of such an author to make any assumptions about what fonts
> are available on the system being used to browse the page. Doing so
> via the <font> tag is especially wrong, since it no longer exists in
> standard HTML. :)
Then how do you tell the webpage that you want a certain type of font,
or whatever?
-Stephen (Steg)
"Dethrone the past:
this done, day comes up new
though empty-hearted:
O the long silence,
my son!"
~ from _the romulan way_ by diane duane & peter morwood
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:46:23 +0100
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
J. 'Mach' Wust ha tera a:
> There are writing systems that don't seperate words at all (e.g.
Japanese or
> Latin written by the Romans).
I didn't know Japanese was ever written by the Romans :)
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:51:00 -0700
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
--- Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> J. 'Mach' Wust ha tera a:
>
> > There are writing systems that don't seperate
> words at all (e.g.
> Japanese or
> > Latin written by the Romans).
>
> I didn't know Japanese was ever written by the
> Romans :)
>
Well, there was this one time....
But that's a story for another list, isn't it?
-The Sock
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 01:06:26 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
On Sun, Oct 31, 2004 at 07:42:11AM +0200, Steg Belsky wrote:
> Then how do you tell the webpage that you want a certain type of font,
> or whatever?
Well, these days you do that with Cascading Style Sheets (CSS). For
maximum portability you should stick to *type* of font, as in
typewriter, serifed, or sans-serif, rather than *name* of font, like
Courier, Times New Roman, or Arial/Helvetica. But you can specify
font names as well, and one of the nice things about CSS is that you can
have different stylesheets for the same page on different platforms. So
without having to change the HTML at all, so you can basically say "On
Windows, use Arial. On a Mac, use Helvetica. On Unix, use whatever
you like as long as it has no serifs."
In general, though, HTML is better at conveying information than
building pretty documents - especially if, as an author, you're quite
picky about what constitutes "pretty". :) For fine control over the
appearance of the finished page you might be better off making a PDF
instead.
-Marcos
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 01:12:34 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS page (fy: (Mis)Naming a Language)
> I know presentation wasn't the goal of HTML, but the cold hard truth is
> that on today's Internet presentation is half the web site.
True. But websites which care that much about presentation do it with Flash
anyway, so who cares about HTML? :)
> I've read that it has caused some grief with Flash animations and
> QuickTime video, which are not IE-specific at all.
And which should be included via the <object> tag in that case.
> <EMBED> never was standard HTML, I know that; but it was still
> supported and used, and when it was pulled out from underneath us it
> caused unnecessary trouble. (Not to say that the introduction of
> <EMBED> in the first case didn't cause unnecessary trouble, either. :)
It was never "pulled out from underneath" anyone. If you don't care
about your pages working in anything but IE on Windows, you can still
use <embed> as much as you want. If you care about writing
standards-compliant HTML that works in other browsers on other
platforms, then you can't use it - but then, you never could.
> I didn't mean that CSS was necessarily harder. It's just that C-style
> syntax (brackets, braces, commas, and semicolons everywhere) tends to
> scare beginners away.
If you say so, I'll take your word for it; I'm afraid I'm too far
removed to judge, since I've been programming for my entire adult life
(plus a good bit of my pre-adult life as well).
> And yes, it certainly does make things easier with regards to making
> site-wide changes.
Not to mention supporting mild variants of a page without having to
generate the HTML dynamically (via PHP or Java or what have you).
-Marcos
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:46:48 +0000
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
--- Mark J. Reed skrzypszy:
> I only added that as an aside in my post, whose primary purpose
> was to ask why some Germans are "ashamed" to say [T]. Feeling
> ashamed about producing a phone just strikes me as odd. I still
> don't understand it.
In Dutch, [T] can only be heard in the speech of people with a speech
defect. And I think that's the answer to your question. Even though
the effect is not the same when Dutch people speak English, many of
them are hesitant to use it even there. It's like the fear to get
undressed before entering a sauna, even if you know that all the
others are undressed, too. ;)
Likewise, certain sounds only exist in certain dialects (which are
often looked down upon by the speakers of the "standard" language),
and they are likely to produce the same effect.
Jan
=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room
with a mosquito."
Relay 10: http://steen.free.fr/relay10/
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 08:15:30 +0000
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Question about Latin E and Slavic yat'
(sorry for crossposting)
Hello!
During the last few weeks, I have been working on Wenedyk quite
intensively. The result is the largest batch of changes ever made to
the language since I started developing it. Basically, these changes
are the correction of mistakes I made in the beginning due to my very
limited knowledge about Vulgar Latin. Most problems are solved
easily, but one thing causes me so much trouble that it actually
stands in the way of any further work, and that's the letter E. I
would appreciate any help.
Two things about this vowel are bothering me.
First of all, diphthongisation. According to my books, Latin long E
and OE were pronounced [e] in Vulgar Latin, while Latin short E and
AE were pronounced [E]. Until now, I have been assuming that long E
and long I diphthongised to [iE], thus giving SE: > *sje > sze. But
I'm slowly finding out that in all Romance languages except
Portuguese diphthongisation occurred rather in the short version,
[E]. Now here's my question: when did this diphthongisation of [E]
take place in Romance? And, how likely would it be that it did not
happen in the Vulgar Latin that would later develop into Wenedyk (and
Slvanjec, for that matter), but that instead [e] were diphthongised?
The second problem is the mapping to the Common Slavic yat' (e^]. For
some reason, I have always mapped Latin long E and OE to the yat',
and short E and AE to the Slavic E. Intuititively, that works well in
general, but I'm having some doubts about plausibility. My books are
not generous with precise info about the nature of Slavic yat' and e,
but the general picture I'm getting is that yat' was pronounced [æ]
((&] in CXS), and the _e_ rather like [e] or [E]. I have a strong
feeling that there must be more to it, though, like vowel length or
pitch. Could somebody please enlighten me?
If my suspicions are true, I've been working with an [E] > [e] / [e]
> [&] schedule, which I really don't think can hold any longer.
Thanks in advance,
Jan
=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room
with a mosquito."
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 03:48:27 -0600
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
About once per day I'm getting "Rejected posting" e-mails from our Listserv
saying "You are not authorized to send mail to the CONLANG list from your
account", followed by header information, and then various types of spam. Is
it just me or is anyone/everyone else getting these?
I'm also checking to see if I or another has some sort of malware forcing us
to send this spam. I have anti-virus and spyware remover installed, but I
just want to make sure. Thanks ahead of time!
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:57:49 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
* Danny Wier said on 2004-10-31 10:48:27 +0100
> About once per day I'm getting "Rejected posting" e-mails from our Listserv
> saying "You are not authorized to send mail to the CONLANG list from your
> account", followed by header information, and then various types of spam. Is
> it just me or is anyone/everyone else getting these?
I'm getting them, and (gasp!) deleting them. The weird thing is though,
when I forget and use the wrong from-adress, I get such a "rejected
posting"-mail, but only to *me*, so how come this spam is still sent
through the list?
t.
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:18:36 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>About once per day I'm getting "Rejected posting" e-mails from our
>Listserv saying "You are not authorized to send mail to the CONLANG
>list from your account", followed by header information, and then
>various types of spam. Is it just me or is anyone/everyone else
>getting these?
>I'm also checking to see if I or another has some sort of malware
>forcing us to send this spam. I have anti-virus and spyware remover
>installed, but I just want to make sure. Thanks ahead of time!
--- End forwarded message ---
I'm getting them, too. Three so far.
Charlie
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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 05:23:21 -0600
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
From: "caeruleancentaur"
(and in rely to Talesin as well)
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>About once per day I'm getting "Rejected posting" e-mails from our
>>Listserv saying "You are not authorized to send mail to the CONLANG
>>list from your account", followed by header information, and then
>>various types of spam. Is it just me or is anyone/everyone else
>>getting these?
> I'm getting them, too. Three so far.
Oh good, it's not me; my computer is clean. Somebody here is just spamming
the list.
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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 13:31:44 +0200
From: "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
Carsten Becker wrote:
> Using clay
> bricks is not that widely spread. So should I rather
> translate "Let's gather stones and wood" etc. because this
> method belongs more tightly to the concept of building a
> house and is more commonly known?
No. This is wrong because bricks are important for the meaning of the story.
> That would seem logical
> to me. Anyway, when Luther translated the Bible, AFAIK he
> also had to translate the *sense* rather than the *words*
> sometimes. "If I took the wings of dawn and stayed at the
> utmost sea ..." comes to my mind[1] ...
It's an almost literal translation of the original "Esa kanfei shahhar ,
eshkena be-ahharit yam".
> Or do you think in
> this case I should better make up a bit of a native story
> and translate this one as an example?
A good idea.
---------------------
Jeffrey Henning wrote:
> I agree - I think that's the right approach. It is certainly one of the
guiding principles of translation relays.
I would rather disagree. Why? See the explanation about "essential" below.
--------------------------
Jan van Steenbergen wrote:
> Usually,
> a translator does not transplant the stuff he's working on into a
> completely different time and place.
I second it.
-----------------------
caeruleancentaur wrote:
> We're not talking about deeply held religious
> principles here (unless someone wants to translate "Romans"),
and even this one may have several alternative interpretations...
> If at all possible, if
> the culture does know what stone/bricks/asphalt/mortar are, then
> those words should be used. We're not trying to tell the reader how
> to build a tower, but how that particular culture built a tower.
Absolutely true.
----------------------
Jeffrey Henning wrote:
> I guess we should agree to disagree: the translator can have their own
> agenda. Are they trying to convey a story that they see as literally
true?
> Are they trying to convey a story that they regard as a parable? If it
is
> literally true, then translate it as equivalently as possible.
For that purpose we need to know the essence of the story, what is relevant
and what is irrelevant. In this particular case bricks, being man-made, are
essential for the meaning, as opposed to stones, given by G-d as they are.
It doesn't matter much if the story here is historically true, or a mere
parable.
> If it is a
> parable, then translate it into cultural terms that convey the essence of
> the story.
This is one of the principles the Wycliff Translators use. I think it is
basicly wrong. When the cultural element in the story is relevant, it must
be preserved, even if it needs long explanations, but not re-interpreted.
Otherwise you can have smth like "In older days there were news, and the
news were together with Humpbacked Spirit..."
-- Yitzik
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:45:58 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
On Saturday 30 October 2004 17:25, Jeffrey Henning wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:32:57 -0000, caeruleancentaur
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> >The whole purpose of that line in the story was to
> > explain to the Hebrew culture what the Mesopotamian
> > culture used for building. In their mountains the
> > Hebrews used stone/mortar while on the Mesopotamian
> > plain they used brick/asphalt. If at all possible, if
> > the culture does know what stone/bricks/asphalt/mortar
> > are, then those words should be used. We're not trying
> > to tell the reader how to build a tower, but how that
> > particular culture built a tower.
>
> I guess we should agree to disagree: the translator can
> have their own agenda. Are they trying to convey a story
> that they see as literally true? Are they trying to
> convey a story that they regard as a parable? If it is
> literally true, then translate it as equivalently as
> possible. If it is a parable, then translate it into
> cultural terms that convey the essence of the story.
As I wrote, I thought my people know what bricks are etc.,
but bricks are not very much used. So I think from what you
wrote that it's better to translate the text how it is
written in the Bible in my case.
Thanks,
Carsten
--
Eri silveváng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoieváng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:44:35 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
On Sunday 31 October 2004 01:46, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> For the record, I didn't answer your question because I
> don't know the answer. I wouldn't have bothered posting
> just to correct the /.../ vs [...] thing; I only added
> that as an aside in my post, whose primary purpose was to
> ask why some Germans are "ashamed" to say [T]. Feeling
> ashamed about producing a phone just strikes me as odd.
> I still don't understand it.
>
> Nor do I understand why you're annoyed. Several folks
> did actually answer your question, including BPJ as you
> indicate; if the others want to take the thread in a
> different direction, well, that's life on a mailing list.
Sorry. I'll re-read the posts then ... indeed, getting away
from the actual topic happens quickly and does occur
naturally in discussions. One thing always leads to
another.
Carsten
--
Eri silveváng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoieváng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:08:38 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Japanese & Romans Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
----- Original Message -----
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
> J. 'Mach' Wust ha tera a:
>
> > There are writing systems that don't seperate words at all (e.g.
> Japanese or
> > Latin written by the Romans).
>
> I didn't know Japanese was ever written by the Romans :)
*singing*
"here we are,
"born to be kings,
"we're the Consuls of the universe;
"here we belong,
"Bushido-ing to survive,
"in a world with the Caesar-est power,
"HAI!"
*stops singing*
>
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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:04:50 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Japanese & Romans Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
----- Original Message -----
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: word separation (was:Hobbits spoke ?)
> --- Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > J. 'Mach' Wust ha tera a:
> >
> > > There are writing systems that don't seperate
> > words at all (e.g.
> > Japanese or
> > > Latin written by the Romans).
> >
> > I didn't know Japanese was ever written by the
> > Romans :)
*singing*
"here we are,
"born to be kings,
"we're the Consuls of the universe;
"here we belong,
"Bushido-ing to survive,
"in a world with the Caesar-est power,
"HAI!"
*stops singing*
> >
>
> Well, there was this one time....
>
> But that's a story for another list, isn't it?
>
> -The Sock
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 13:50:39 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: rejected spam postings -- is it me?
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:57:49 +0100, taliesin the storyteller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * Danny Wier said on 2004-10-31 10:48:27 +0100
> > About once per day I'm getting "Rejected posting" e-mails from our Listserv
> > saying "You are not authorized to send mail to the CONLANG list from your
> > account", followed by header information, and then various types of spam. Is
> > it just me or is anyone/everyone else getting these?
>
> I'm getting them, and (gasp!) deleting them. The weird thing is though,
> when I forget and use the wrong from-adress, I get such a "rejected
> posting"-mail, but only to *me*, so how come this spam is still sent
> through the list?
I'm getting them, too.
The thing is, the rejection notice *is* only sent to the "sender" -
but the spammer forged the list's address as sender.
The technical details were explained on this list at some point, but
if I remember correctly, they go something like this: the list
address, [EMAIL PROTECTED], is not permitted to send mail to
the list, so if a spammer forges that as from address, it'll be
bounced with "you're not a member or maybe you got your address
wrong". The bounce will be sent to the "sender",
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (i.e. the list submission address) -- and
it so happens that the address which is used in the From field of
bounces *is* permitted to send email to the list (for arcane technical
reasons, I believe, involving the necessity of occasionally sending
administrative mail or the like). So the bounce is accepted by the
mailing list software (since the sender -- the generator of the bounce
-- is a member of the CONLANG list and had posting access) and is
distributed to all other members.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 24
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 08:21:34 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: "Rejected" Conlang Posts
Whoa! Just read Danny Weir's post, and Taliesin's reply. This is what I
was going to send to the list, until I looked down the mailspool. Yes, I'm
getting them, too, and I think someone has suddenly discovered our listserv
who has no interest in inventing languages.
---------------------------- Original letter:
For some reason, I have started receiving messages this weekend from the
mailer daemon telling me that I am not authorized to send messages to the
CONLANG list. The most recent one is from a certain Julia D. Nadeau, whose
message is about how to enlarge one's virile member. I wonder how it is
that my account is being used for this spam? I have a firewall and spam
control. If Ms. N, or whoever, is the one sending the messages, why are
they coming to me? is he/she trying to use my name and account?? Is
anybody else the victim of this trick? They are taking up space in my
mailbox.
Sally
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Message: 25
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:04:52 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 2 Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
----- Original Message -----
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
> On Saturday 30 October 2004 17:25, Jeffrey Henning wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:32:57 -0000, caeruleancentaur
> As I wrote, I thought my people know what bricks are etc.,
> but bricks are not very much used.
minor question - are bricks not much used because they're seen as
expensive/unclean/other ? the answer to that might - *might* - influence
how your conlang's speakers would view the Tower of Babel when you translate
it.
just a thought.
sorry.
have nice days.
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