There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: the /twi/ in /twilight/ ?
From: Rene Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Let me introduce myself
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: affricates/grammar help/intransitivity/free word order
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. CHAT: Re: affricates/grammar help/intransitivity/free word order
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: the /twi/ in /twilight/ ?
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Happy New Year
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: writing system
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Updated webpages...
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 19:46:43 +0100
From: Rene Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: the /twi/ in /twilight/ ?
Muke Tever wrote:
> caeruleancentaur wrote:
>>
>> "Nigh" is not related. The "gh" is a remnant from the OE "neoh,"
>> near. This "gh" is retained in our English word "neighbor." one who
>> dwells near.
>
> And "nigh" itself is just the positive of a series of familiar adjectives:
>
> positive |nigh| (Old English néah)
> comparative |near| (i.e., 'nigher', OE néara)
> superlative |next| (i.e., 'nighest', OE níehsta)
>
> ...though nowadays "near" and "next" have lost their comparative and
> superlative force, and nigher and nighest have been recreated.
>
These look a lot like the German words:
nah - near
näher - nearer
nächst - nearest _or_ next
It is curious to see that these superlatives have changed their meaning
("nearest" -> "next") in both German and English.
This reminds me of:
a little bit (from the verb "to bite")
ein Bißchen (from the verb "beißen")
een beetje (from the verb "bijten")
The meaning of "a bit" etc. has become quite different from the meaning
of the verb it was originally derived from, but it fascinates me to see
that the same etymology occurs in English, German, *and* Dutch.
René
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 10:49:31 -0800
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself
--- "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2004 at 03:22:39PM -0600, Thomas R.
> Wier wrote:
> > > > Yeah, well, us Texans have ten times more...
> er...
> > > > desert! AW YEA. We've got more desert than
> those
> > > > shivering peoples up there!
> > >
> > > You know I'm a Texan, right? They say that
> sometimes the difference
> > > between a Jewish joke and an antisemitic joke is
> who's telling it...
> >
> > Sounds like Bob's a Texan too, Thomas, so who
> exactly is in danger
> > of offending you here? I'm confused.
>
> The way I interpreted his remarks, they sounded like
> he was offended
> by my remarks about Texans. That is, it was not I
> who was in danger
> of being offended, but I who was in danger of
> offending.
>
It takes more than emails to get me offended. Maybe a
knife to the face, but little else will. Don't worry
about me! I'm just here, man.
=====
-The Sock
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:11:55 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: affricates/grammar help/intransitivity/free word order
Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:51:44 -0500, J. 'Mach' Wust <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 02:13:51 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:29:13 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >>> >
> >>> >> >German has the labiodental affricate [pf]
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Yes, but only in the middle of the word or at the end. Word-initial it
> >>> >> is "f".
> >>> >
> >>> >Many varieties, yes. Duden German, no.
> >>>
> >>> Duden German != spoken German in most areas. Not in all, but at least in
> >>> a lot of cases, so you're better off not taking it as a guideline for
> >>> anything. In essence, the Duden is quite useful to stop a desk or chair
> >>> from wobbling, but it's very unsuitable to make qualitative statements
> >>> about the actually spoken German.
> >
> >Your own variety of standard German seems to be much worse, since it has
> >long consonants, which is definitly not found in most varieties of standard
> >German.
>
> First, I never said something about my dialect having long consonants, no
> idea where you got that from...
Your posts about how you, in the old spelling, could tell whether a word should
have an eszett or a double s based on syllable borders make no sense at all
unless you've got geminates.
> >The prescriptive standard, that is, the variety of standard German that is
> >teached abroad, equals the Duden variety, and it is very differnt from
> >Pascal Kramms local variety. He seems to be stuck in the out of date point
> >of view that there's only one pronunciation of standard German, and for a
> >reason I can't figure he assumes that his own pronunciation (which is very
> >peculiar) is that only pronuciation of standard German, which is definitly
> >wrong.
>
> I never said anything like that, don't make it appear as if I did.
You've only given that impression in pretty much every post on the subject of
German you've ever made on this list ...
> The above
> is rather true for you, who is apparently of the opinion that the Duden
> variety is the only valid one, while you scorn every other variety of
> Standard German, whereas those are at least as valid.
You're making a fool of yourself. No-one has pointed out the variety of
pronunciations of Hochdeutsch as often and consistently as Mach, nor insisted
on their 'validity' as much as him.
> >Many deny that any variety of standard German is more standar than the
> >others. But if there is any variety that is more standard than the others,
> >then it's the prescriptive standard of old, the variety teached abroad, the
> >variety pointed out in the pronunciation Duden, no matter what Pascal Kramm
> >believes.
>
> There you go again... the prescriptive Duden variety is certainly not the
> least bit better than any other variety of Standard German,
You _do_ seem to have serious difficulties in reading English.
Andreas
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:25:53 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: CHAT: Re: affricates/grammar help/intransitivity/free word order
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 11:09:03 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>> Duden German != spoken German in most areas. Not in all, but at least
>>>> in a lot of cases, so you're better off not taking it as a guideline
>>>> for anything. In essence, the Duden is quite useful to stop a desk or
>>>> chair from wobbling, but it's very unsuitable to make qualitative
>>>> statements about the actually spoken German.
>>
>>Your own variety of standard German seems to be much worse, since it has
>>long consonants, which is definitly not found in most varieties of
>>standard German.
>
>First, I never said something about my dialect having long consonants, no
>idea where you got that from...
I'm sorry, it was me who had the idea when I was relating your variety of
standard German to Swiss German, since both feature short /&/, which is
definitly not found in most varieties of standard German:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0410B&L=conlang&P=R5304
>Second, just because my variety has some features which you're apparently
>unable to handle still doesn't give you the right to condemn it and
>classify it as "much worse" than any other.
I'm sorry for the wording. Here's a second try: Your variety is less useful
"as a guideline to anything" than the Duden standard, because it features
peculiarties such as a short /&/ which are not found in most varieties of
standard German.
>The Duden variety has also lots of features which are definitely not found
>in most varieties of Standard German.
The pronunciation? That's new to me. Could you give some examples?
>>And don't forget that it's the Duden variety that is teached abroad,
>>not yours. So if your making any assertions on German on this list, you'd
>>better make them on the Duden variety, not on your local one.
>
>Sad, but true - it's the same problem as with English, where you won't find
>much native speakers who speak exactly that Oxford English you're taught in
>school/college.
I wasn't teached Oxford English. I think that foreigners are happy that
there is a widely accepted standard they can learn.
>>The prescriptive standard, that is, the variety of standard German that is
>>teached abroad, equals the Duden variety, and it is very differnt from
>>Pascal Kramms local variety. He seems to be stuck in the out of date point
>>of view that there's only one pronunciation of standard German, and for a
>>reason I can't figure he assumes that his own pronunciation (which is very
>>peculiar) is that only pronuciation of standard German, which is definitly
>>wrong.
>
>I never said anything like that, don't make it appear as if I did.
You haven't said it explicitly. You've implied it, since you've never
pointed out that you were talking about your local pronunciation when you
have claimed something to be pronounced like this or like that in German.
Have a look at the YAEPT, and you'll see that nobody says that this or that
is the pronunciation of English and that's it, but everybody says: In my
place, people pronounce this and that.
If you're making a statement on German pronunciation without specifying
where this pronunciation is used, people will assume you're talking about
the standard pronunciation unless they know German very well.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j.m.w.
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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:27:00 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: the /twi/ in /twilight/ ?
MT= Muke Tever
MT> And "nigh" itself is just the positive of a series of familiar adjectives:
I said that. :)
RU = Rene Uittenbogaard
RU> These look a lot like the German words:
RU> It is curious to see that these superlatives have changed their meaning
RU> ("nearest" -> "next") in both German and English.
It's not really a change in meaning, though, merely of focus; a
connotational change, not a denotational one. When
speaking spatially, after all, the nearest is the next, and vice versa.
RU> The meaning of "a bit" etc. has become quite different from the meaning
RU> of the verb it was originally derived from, but it fascinates me to see
RU> that the same etymology occurs in English, German, *and* Dutch.
Perhaps the derivation occurred before they split, or perhaps they
influenced each other in the process?
-Marcos
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:37:02 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Happy New Year
MJR = Mark J. Reed
MJR> I think "pascua" is Easter/Passover
PN = Philip Newton
PN> Also used for Christmas, though -- "¡Felices Pascuas!" at that time
PN> would be understood as an abbreviation of the more complete "¡Felices
PN> Pascuas de Navidad!", AFAIK.
Huh. No sabía éso. Gracias por la información.
-Marcos
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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:42:48 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: writing system
I think it helps a lot if you practice a little bit with the tools the
writing system is intented to be written with, e.g. with a broad ink pen or
with a brush. Already within very little time, I'm talking about a few
hours, you may be able to see which letter forms work.
My writing systems got better the longer I used them. I learn them by memory
and then keep practicing. I once had a project of finding out into what my
handwriting would finally evolve if I kept simplifying it. I already had
evolved it into script that were similar to runes, to arabic, to cuneiform,
to lowercase Roman letters, and several more, so I thought there might be a
final simplification (I've always been interested in the reduction of
forms), but I abandoned this project when I saw that there would be no such
final form.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:49:50 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Updated webpages...
* Pascal A. Kramm said on 2004-12-31 20:14:35 +0100
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:15:04 +0100, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> > The pages for my conlang Taruven has been updated, and are in the
> > process of being cleaned up and converted to utf8 and xhtml.
> >
> > <http://taliesin.nvg.org/taruven/>
> >
> > Please stop by, have a look-see and tell me (preferably with link to
> > a screenshot) if anything renders strangely [..]
>
> [..] even with Firefox, I get lots of funny symbols. The cause for
> this is that you use utf8, but don't specify this in the header as you
> should.
XHTML is utf8 by default, so it should show correctly anyway. Though, I
did get to check in IE and have now *YUCK!* added explicit charset-info
in the files that need utf8.
Demanding that the server (yep, the spec. says so) has to tell/know what
charsets its files are in is so hare-brained that the mind she boogles
over and rolls down the hill... (Why this is so is left as an exercise
to the reader.)
t.
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