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There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: McGuffey Readers and animals
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: McGuffey Readers and animals
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Ventricular phonation
From: william drewery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: McGuffey Readers and animals
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Ventricular phonation
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. TECH: Sound Change program
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: TECH: Sound Change program
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: TECH: Sound Change program
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:33:30 -0800
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: McGuffey Readers and animals
On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 10:41:46PM +0100, Carsten Becker wrote:
> Hey!
>
> So I downloaded the first McGuffey Reader and skimmed a bit
> through it. What gave me headache is that there are
> frequently mentioned everyday animals. Since the Ayeri are
> supposed to live on another planet, there are of course no
> dogs, cats, duck(ling)s and such per se. But I don't know
> enough about Biology and I can't draw well enough to make
> up own animals of the respective kinds. Should I simply
> make up words for these animals then? Should I mangle their
> Latin name or their German or their English name?
[...]
> I guess I should really make up names for animals and say
> that they're quite similar to ours. What did you others do
> in this case?
[...]
I have the same problem in Ebisédian and Tatari Faran. Ebisédian,
first of all, is set in a completely different universe, and the only
thing in common with the earth there is that the Ebisédi are human.
Everything else is radically different. Which means that in
translating animal names, I have to *really* improvise.
But, different universe or not, the common problem in both Ebisédian
and Tatari Faran is culture-clash. Tatari Faran is spoken on Earth,
but some aspects of san faran culture are incompatible with how things
are depicted in the Reader.
For example, they don't have such things as pet dogs that children
play with. The closest they have is the packs of guard wolves they
keep---but you'd hardly let a child play with one of those wolves.
There aren't any domestic dogs in Fara---there may be the odd coyote
but you don't let children play with them, just as you would rather
children not play in fox holes.
And then there's the pet *cats*... in Fara, there are only wild cats
and lynxes. Lynxes are significantly more vicious than your typical
housecat, and stockier too. Again, not the type of animal you'd have
your children cuddle up with.
As for ducks... these are *food* for the san faran. When they see a
duck in a pond, their reaction is not "oh how cute", but "look!
Dinner!" Now, you might think that's rather barbaric, but the san
faran would call us modern, supposedly-cultured people, equally
barbaric, especially for eating cattle and other farm-raised animals.
In Fara, it is considered vulgar to eat a domestically-raised animal.
Meat is a delicacy deserved only if you *hunt* the animal. Raising an
animal and then killing it for food is as repulsive to the san faran
as eating your own children.
Now some kinds of birds *are* kept as pets... but confining them in
cages is regarded as cruel and inhumane. So you can just imagine the
contradiction that arises in that lesson where a girl is playing with
her pet bird with a cage in the background---the symbol of cruelty to
animals---and the text claims that she loves the bird very much.
And I've not gotten to the part about hats and caps yet. In Fara,
nobody except clowns and fools wears hats. Respectable men wear
turbans, and respectable women wear shawls. :-) The word for 'helmet'
itself is derogatory and jocial when used in that sense.
The problem with the McGuffey Reader is that it is rather culturally
biased. But you really don't have a choice---what else would you write
about in a Reader for children, if not culturally-specific things such
as dogs and cats for pets? Some culture, somewhere, would have some
taboo against just about anything you might write about. If you take
away these things there'd be nothing left to write about. Nothing
interesting, at least. I much prefer to adapt the idea of the Readers
and re-write it as appropriate for the san faran, than to insist on
only translating culturally-neutral, whitewashed boring prose.
The adaptation approach also has its linguistic merits: the structure
of the Readers, from what I can tell so far, is that words are slowly
introduced and then repeated often for reinforcement. Well, the
problem is that this requires one to choose the simplest, most
frequently used set of words to begin with. Such frequent words as
"have" or "can" are used in idiomatic ways only possible in English.
Even such constructs as "a girl on a horse" and "a frog on a rock" are
translated differently in Tatari Faran: to literally translate "on a
horse" gives the rather ridiculous idea of somebody standing on the
head of a horse, or someone lying limp across a horse (whatever that
means). You don't get "on" a horse; you *ride* a horse. Similarly, you
don't "have" anything; you *own* things or *carry* things. Also, you
don't "run at" things; you *chase* things. Running is running, and
chasing is chasing. English conflates the two in a single verb, but
you can't do that in Tatari Faran.
So the result is that the current Tatari Faran translation of the
McGuffey Readers kinda defeats the whole purpose, in that it does not
make sense culturally (the idea of children playing with wolves is
rather ridiculous), and many different words are introduced all at
once to substitute for the same English verb, and the Review sections
contain new words because the English version uses existing words in a
way that requires a different word in Tatari Faran.
In the end, I just decided to leave the current translation as a
"literal foreign text" rather than to try to correct these flaws. One
of these days I should do a better, more liberal adaptation of the
McGuffey Readers into Tatari Faran, one that makes sense culturally
and follows the spirit, not the letter, of the Readers.
T
--
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:06:32 -0800
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: McGuffey Readers and animals
Carsten wrote:
<<
What gave me headache is that there are
frequently mentioned everyday animals. Since the Ayeri are
supposed to live on another planet, there are of course no
dogs, cats, duck(ling)s and such per se.
>>
Depends on what your goal is. If your goal is simply to show
off sentence structure, that it doesn't really matter what animals
are in the pictures. You can call them all "blings" (or whatever
the equivalent of a nonce word is in Ayeri).
If your goal is to introduce people to the culture or vocabulary,
then just don't use the McGuffey Reader. One that you came
up with on your own would definitely be more suited to your
language, and would probably be much, much better (I don't
think much of the McGuffey Reader).
What I always did was I use a TY book for a similar language.
So, for example, Kamakawi is a language that's supposed to
be spoken on an island in a clime not at all unlike that of Hawai'i,
so what I've been doing is working through a TY Hawaiian
book (not that series--I have several different ones), and doing
all the exercises in both Hawaiian and Kamakawi. This way I
both learn Hawaiian and flesh out the vocabulary of Kamakawi.
Plus, I never have to worry about clashes (well, except for
concepts/words/animals that were introduced to Hawaii from
the mainland).
Of course, if your culture is too different, you won't be able to
find a TY book that's similar, but maybe something will be close.
On a different issue...
Teoh wrote:
<<
As for ducks... these are *food* for the san faran. When they see a
duck in a pond, their reaction is not "oh how cute", but "look!
Dinner!" Now, you might think that's rather barbaric, but the san
faran would call us modern, supposedly-cultured people, equally
barbaric, especially for eating cattle and other farm-raised animals.
>>
<opinion>
What, so cows can't be cute in our culture? Or chickens? This is
just like my girlfriend's family, who are all vegetarian. They like
to make fun of me by saying, "Hey, look, there's a cow. Doesn't
it make you hungry?" NO! I don't look at a cow and think "food",
even though I eat beef, and I don't think I would think that about
an animal I had to hunt, either.
</opinion>
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:26:39 -0800
From: william drewery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Ventricular phonation
Is ventricular phonation the same as creaky-voice? If not, just what is it? and
is it possible to produce a distinct fricative using the ventricular folds?
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:34:57 -0800
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: McGuffey Readers and animals
On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 04:06:32PM -0800, David J. Peterson wrote:
[...]
> Teoh wrote:
> <<
> As for ducks... these are *food* for the san faran. When they see a
> duck in a pond, their reaction is not "oh how cute", but "look!
> Dinner!" Now, you might think that's rather barbaric, but the san
> faran would call us modern, supposedly-cultured people, equally
> barbaric, especially for eating cattle and other farm-raised animals.
> >>
>
> <opinion>
> What, so cows can't be cute in our culture? Or chickens? This is
> just like my girlfriend's family, who are all vegetarian. They like
> to make fun of me by saying, "Hey, look, there's a cow. Doesn't
> it make you hungry?" NO! I don't look at a cow and think "food",
> even though I eat beef, and I don't think I would think that about
> an animal I had to hunt, either.
[...]
Ah, but the san faran think of hunted meat as a delicacy, you see.
Their normal diet is mostly vegetarian, but meat is a treat. So when
they see ducks in a pond, a very likely reaction would be "look,
ducks! Let's hunt them for a snack!", or "let's catch them and bring
them home for the kids' dinner!". Not exactly the same thing as when
we beef eaters look at cows, you see. Their reaction is more
comparable with, as a random example, when bubble tea lovers see a
bubble tea shop, or when coffee lovers see a Tim Horton's (or
Starbucks for the 'Merrycans), or when (most) children see a candy
store.
I think we lack that kind of reaction about cattle because we aren't
directly involved in the slaughtering and preparation of the meat, and
the meat itself isn't something out of the ordinary so there's nothing
to be excited about. It's rather different with the san faran, in that
meat is a special treat for them, like candy is to (most) children.
The only sense they'd consider ducks 'cute' is in the sense of 'how
delicious it would be', in the same way a child's fascination for
candy isn't to admire and pet it, but to eat it.
T
--
"Uhh, I'm still not here." -- KD, while "away" on ICQ.
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:34:43 +0100
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ventricular phonation
--- william drewery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is ventricular phonation the same as creaky-voice?
> If not, just what is it? and is it possible to
> produce a distinct fricative using the ventricular
> folds?
Ventricular folds? I'm imagining a language whose
speakers are constantly spurting blood everywhere,
thanks to the use of their ventricles as a point of
articulation :)...
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:17:02 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: TECH: Sound Change program
As an assignment for a programming course I'm taking, I'm building a
program to read a sound change list and a corpus, and output the corpus as
modified by the sound changes.
Once it's written, I'm going to release the source to this list, and maybe
other places.
What features would you most like to see in your ideal sound change
program?
Right now, I'm thinking the sound change list will be applied in the order
as found in the file, with entries in the familiar format:
from > to / environment
such as:
d > t / _ #
In addition I will recognise labels like:
1500:
to mark the (idealised) year a set of sound changes takes place. There
will be a slider to set the output to any such labelled year.
The corpus, sound changes, and output will be UTF-8 files.
All other ideas appreciated, for any facet of the design.
Thanks,
Paul
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:50:37 -0800
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: Sound Change program
Paul wrote:
<<
from > to / environment
such as:
d > t / _ #
>>
First, it's great to hear you're undertaking this tack. Right on!
I actually have something that does exactly this, and the *most*
annoying thing about it is that only A > B / C_D is understood.
So, a quick example. Let's say a language has the stops p, b, t, d,
k, g and q. Now let's say you have a rule that reads as follows:
C[-cont] > [+cont] / V_V
The program I have doesn't understand:
(1) features
(2) variables
So in order to get this to work, you have to input the following
(assuming a five vowel language):
p > f / a_a
p > f / a_e
p > f / a_i
p > f / a_o
p > f / a_u
p > f / e_a
...and on, and on, and on, for *every* stop. The list grows enormous!
And lord help you if you want to modify the rule slightly some time
in the future.
So, if your program could understand user-designed variables (e.g.,
it understands that "a, e, i, o and u" are V if you say so), and *maybe*
features (that might be too hard), or at least have a way to deal with
features, that would be a significant improvement.
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:22:22 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: Sound Change program
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:50:37 -0500, David J. Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Paul wrote:
> <<
> from > to / environment
>
> such as:
>
> d > t / _ #
> >>
>
> First, it's great to hear you're undertaking this tack. Right on!
Woo!
> I actually have something that does exactly this, and the *most*
> annoying thing about it is that only A > B / C_D is understood.
[snip example of annoyingness]
> So, if your program could understand user-designed variables (e.g.,
> it understands that "a, e, i, o and u" are V if you say so), and *maybe*
> features (that might be too hard), or at least have a way to deal with
> features, that would be a significant improvement.
Well, the language has pattern matching using fairly traditional []
notation, so I could do
p > b / [aeiou]_[aeiou]
with very few problems, if any.
The problem with named variables, and features for that matter, is that
they (may) change from one stage of the language to the next. I'd need
another file with (e.g.)
1066:
V=aeiou
1300:
V=aeiouy
Also, I'd need some kind of escape mechanism to distinguish named
variables from text, since it's plausible that the user would want to use
some horrible language like Klingon (or indeed CXS), where upper and lower
case can mix within plain text.
I've thought about using $ before variables, to keep in step with several
programming and scripting languages, but $ is used in environments for
"morpheme boundary", and it would be a shame to have to use $$ there.
Features, similarwise. if I used [aeiou] notation for variables, I'd need
some other mechanism for marking features, and a file that looks something
like
1066:
t=[+stop][+alveolar][-voice]
Okay, I'm thinking on my feet here...
Make the sound-change file reader multi-pass.
First pass, gobble up all the [features] and re-mark with some other
character, like `feature' or something. Second pass, take all the
(variables) and rewrite them in [regex notation].
Hmm...
Thinking is occuring...
Ack! Another notation I want to write down before I forget it:
1066:
C[voice]
+=bdgj
-=ptkc
Paul
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