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There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: past tense imperative
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Parable of the Good Samaritan in gjax-zym-byn
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Costanice Phonology Sketch
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: vocabulary
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:57:49 -0700
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: past tense imperative
--- René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A couple of days ago, I was struck by an interesting
> grammatical construction
> in Dutch. Dutch has a construction in which an
> imperative can be used in
> the past perfect:
>
> Had dat dan gezegd! - You should have told me so!
> Was dan niet gegaan! - You shouldn't have gone!
This looks like fun. The only "non-standard" use I've
made of the imperative is in my romconlang (still in
search of a name) where the first person
(sing/plural)of the imperative is used to translate
something like "Let's go." or "I'm leaving." or "Let's
get something to eat."
--gary
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:02:32 -0400
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Parable of the Good Samaritan in gjax-zym-byn
Here is the parable of the Good Samaritan from Luke 10:25-37,
translated from Greek (Textus receptus) into my conlang gjax-zym-byn
(with comparison of several modern translations; I am not
good enough at Greek yet to do this on my own). The English text
following each verse in gzb is a translation of the gzb text, and
shows a minor "telephone" effect compared with English translations
direct from Greek.
The abbreviations are either standard ones from the Leipzig
Glossing Rules ( http://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/files/morpheme.html )
or are glossed at the bottom of this document. Abbreviations only used once
are glossed right after the verse they appear in.
10:25
zxiq-gxax-tla soq goq.
study-law-[professional] certain behold.
su jax-o pq tu-i, kujm-sqar [jesxua-ram] kax-i
standing state-to 3 AGT-at reason-CONJ Jesus-NAME ATT-at
hqiq-zox, kinq twax-zox pqoq: {?rynq-noq-zox mwe,
test-V.ACT and saying-V.ACT QUOTE do-Q.WH-V.ACT IMP
kujm-sqar zunq pjylm-ta miq-i kq sxu-o.}
reason-CONJ life boundary-without TOP-at 1 have.quality-to
Behold a certain lawyer. He stood up, in order to test Jesus,
and said: "What must I do to obtain endless life?"
(The original has [auton] "him" for Jesus here, but since I've taken
this passage out of context, I supply the proper name the first time
he is mentioned in this passage.
The phrase {kq sxu-o} loses the specific sense of [kleronomeso], "to
inherit". There is no single verb in gzb meaning "to inherit"; if
that were literally intended, I would render it as "kq sxu-o woqj [max
kwoq] jqaxr-i zunq-cox jax-o": "receive because [someone] dies".
Since "inherit" seems here to be a picturesque way of saying "come to
possess" and doesn't imply a benefactor dying (in this context), I
declined to be so verbose.)
10:26
moqj pq nxaxw-o pq-kxa tu-i twax-zox pxoq:
but 3 call-to 3-RESP AGT-at saying-V.ACT QUOTE
{?twax noq miq-i twax-cu-gxax i-m ?ru noq
sentence Q.WH TOP-at sentence-system-law in-part.of manner Q.WH
kax-i lju-zox tq tu-i.}
ATT-at read-V.ACT 2 AGT-at
But he said to him: "What saying is in the law? How do you read?"
(The original just uses [ho] or [auton] "he, him" for both Jesus and
the lawyer throughout; I've taken the liberty of supplying
disambiguating suffixes or modifiers to the general third-person
pronoun {pq} in some instance, as here and in verse 28.)
10:27
nu-sqar pq tu-i frax-txaj-zox pxoq:
moment-CONJ 3 AGT-at ask-OPP1-V.ACT QUOTE
{!tq liqw-i paxnx txeq'ku kax-i gy-tq-zox mwe
2 relationship-at lord God ATT-at love-2-V.ACT IMP
tq i-m sxiqn hoql nxiqw-i, pe tq i-m fax-nxiqw
2 in-part.of heart whole faculty-at and 2 in-part.of love-faculty
hoql nxiqw-i, pe tq sxu-i kix'hxu hoql nxiqw-i,
whole faculty-at and 2 have.quality-at strength whole faculty-at
pe tq i-m zym-nxiqw hoql nxiqw-i;
and 2 in-part.of think-faculty whole faculty-at
kinq tq i-j max-nxy-cox txe tq-mym kax-i
and 2 at-near person-distant-OPP2 as 2-self ATT-at
gy-zox mwe saxm-box.}
love-V.ACT IMP same-ADJ
Then he answered: "You must love your Lord God with your whole heart
and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your
whole mind; and love the neighbor near you the same as yourself."
(The translation supplies another instance of {gy-zox} "love" in the
second clause. {gy} normally translates [agapao]; {fax} translates
[phileo] and [erao].)
10:28
kinq pq-kxa tu-i pq-cxax nxaxw-o twax-zox pxoq:
and 3-RESP AGT-at 3-smart call-to sentence-V.ACT QUOTE
{frax-txaj-tq-zox kxy-ja. rynq-poq-zox mwe, kiqn zunq-van.}
ask-OPP1-2-V.ACT truth-fitting do-DEM3-V.ACT IMP and life-V.STATE
And he said to him, "You answered truly. Do this, and live."
10:29
moqj sru-van zqaxj-ja-fwa-ca pq tu-i,
but want-V.STATE justice-fitting-CAUS-V.REFL 3 AGT-at
woqn twax-zox jesxua-ram nxaxw-o pqoq:
therefore sentence-V.ACT Jesus-NAME call-to QUOTE
{?kinq max-noq nxiqn-i kq liqw-i max-nxy-cox.}
and person-Q.WH comment-at 1 relationship-at person-far-OPP2
But he wanted to make himself just, so he said to Jesus: "And who is
my neighbor?"
(In place of a participle [thelon] "desiring" modifying an active verb
[eipe] "said", I make both of them regular verbs, connecting the
clauses with {woqn} "so, therefore".)
10:30
nu-sqar frax-txaj-zox jesxua-ram tu-i twax-zox pxoq:
moment-CONJ ask-OPP1-V.ACT Jesus-NAME AGT-at sentence-V.ACT QUOTE
{jerusalem-wam s-rq-nx jerihxo-wam tx-o-r runx-zxa-zox
Jerusalem-NAME.P top-from-in Jericho-NAME.P bottom-to-distant go-AUG-V.ACT
max soq tu-i, kinq bwiql-txaj-tla gxum-o pq jqaxr-i,
person certain AGT-at and give-OPP2-professional power-to 3 experiencer-at
max-loq tu-i vlym-ta-fwa-zox pq hxy-i, pe traxw-ra-zox,
person-REL AGT-at clothing-without-CAUS-V.ACT 3 P-at and hit-repeated-V.ACT
pe zunq-fja su-jqa jax-i pq kax-rq tyn poq rq runx-zox.
and life-hardly stand-ROT90 STATE-at 3 ATT-from place DEM3 from go-V.ACT
Then Jesus answered saying, "A certain man went down from Jerusalem
toward Jericho, and came under the power of robbers, who stripped him,
beat him up, and went away leaving him him lying there barely alive.
(I supplied {txor}, down toward, where the Greek has simply [eis], to,
toward; it matches {srnx}, down out of, which translates [apo].)
ROT90 = rotate 90 degrees suffix (su "stand" -> su-jqa "lie")
10:31
viqj-sqar rax-zox, hoqnx runx-tx-o-zox peq'hiq-ja
time-CONJ event-V.ACT that go-bottom-to-V.ACT road-along
kixr'baxn-tla soq tu-i; kinq pq kax-i riqm-van sq-i-n,
sacrifice-professional certain AGT-at and 3 ATT-at see-V.STATE
after-at-contact
pq r-o-r vxax-zox peq'hiq i-m wu jqoq k-i.
3 beyond-to-far go-V.ACT road at-part.of side other throughout-at
Then it happened that a certain priest came along the road; and after
seeing him, he went on past him on the other side of the road.
(I've rendered the prepositional phrase [kata sygkyrian] as verb +
conjunction instead: {rax-zox, hoqnx} = "It happened that...". DRV
has "And it chanced, that..." Langenscheidt lists "to happen" as one
of the senses of the related verb [sygkyreo].)
10:32
saxm-sqar tyn poq o-j runx-zox levi-sqam tu-i,
same-CONJ place DEM3 to-near go-V.ACT Levi-NAME.F AGT-at
kinq pq kax-i riqm-van nu-sqar pq r-o-r
and 3 ATT-at see-V.STATE moment-CONJ 3 beyond-to-far
vxax-zox wu jqoq k-i.
go-V.ACT side other throughout-at
In the same way a Levite came near that place, and saw him, then went
past on the other side.
(The Greek has an adverb + conjunction + conjunction construction,
[homoios de kai], which I've simplified into a single conjunction. The suffix
{sqar} derives a conjunction from a root word; here, {saxm} "same".)
10:33
kinq jqwax samaria-wam soq tu-i peq'hiq-zox
and inhabitant Samaria-NAME.P certain AGT-at road-V.ACT
viqj-loq i pq o-n runx-zox, pe pq kax-i riqm-van,
time-REL at 3 to-contact go-V.ACT and 3 ATT-at see-V.STATE
pe pq miq-i pix'wyr-van.
and 3 topic-at compassion-V.STATE
And a certain Samaritan while travelling came to him, and saw him, and
felt compassion for him.
(peq'hiq-zox translates [hodeuo], a travel verb which also derives
from a root meaning "road".] Normally I express "travel" as
{runx-zxa}, but I like this new verbal use of {peq'hiq}.)
10:34
pq o-n vxax-zox, kinq pq-vuj-dox hxy-i vlym-zox,
3 to-contact go-V.ACT and 3-physical-violation P-at clothe-V.ACT
kinq pq s-o-n lyl pe viqn hxy-i flu-fwa-zox.
and 3 on-to-contact oil and wine P-at flow-CAUS-V.ACT
nu-sqar pq hxy-i tyn-zox pq-mym sxaxj-i
moment-CONJ 3 P-at place-V.ACT 3-self have.stuff-at
raxm-toxn s-o-n, kinq pq hxy-i sqax-fwa-zox
cat-GEN on-to-contact and 3 P-at carry-CAUS-V.ACT
jxyj-rjax-kox o-n, kinq pq hxy-i txiq-zox fiqm-fwa.
vigor-seek-place to-contact and 3 P-at help-V.ACT health-CAUS
He went up to him, and bound up his wounds, and poured oil and water
on them. Then he put him on his animal and carried him to an inn, and
took care of him.
10:35
cxeq'txax txoq i, deq'naxr cxu-box hxy-i jxyj-rjax-kox-tla
day next at denarius two-ADJ P-at vigor-seek-place-professional
sxaxj-o bwiql-zox, kinq twax-zox pxoq:
have.stuff-to give-V.ACT and sentence-V.ACT QUOTE
{!pq hxy-i txiq-tq-zox mwe, kinq sxiqw-loq hxy-i tq sxaxj-rq
3 P-a help-3-V.ACT IMP and stuff-REL P-at 2 have.stuff-from
kaxj-tq-zox, tyn toq o-n runx-kq-zox joqj viqj-loq i,
spend-2-V.ACT place DEM2 to-contact go-1-V.ACT again time-REL at
tq sxaxj-o kaxj-ha poq hxy-i vxaxwn-txaj-kq-zox.}
2 have.stuff-to exchange-stuff DEM3 P-at borrow-OPP1-1-V.ACT
The next day, he gave two denarii to the innkeeper, and said: "Take
care of him, and what you spend, when I come back, I will repay you
that money."
10:36
?max dax-box muw-i max-noq miq-i, zym-tq-zox,
person three-ADJ subset-at person-Q.WH TOP-at think-2-V.ACT
bwiql-txaj-tla gxum-o max liqw-i
give-OPP1-professional power-to person relationship-at
max-nxy-cox nxiqn-i.}
person-far-OPP2 comment-at
"Which man out of the three, do you think, was neighbor to the man
who was overpowered by the robbers?"
10:37
nu-sqar pq tu-i twax-zox pxoq: {max loq tu-i pq hxy-i
moment-CONJ 3 AGT-at say-V.ACT QUOTE person REL AGT-at 3 P-at
piq'wyr-zox.} kinq twax-zox pq nxaxw-o jesxua-ram pxoq:
compassion-V.ACT and say-V.ACT 3 call-to Jesus-NAME QUOTE
{!runx-tq-zox mwe, kinq rynq-zox saxm-box.}
go-2-V.ACT IMP and do-V.ACT same-ADJ
Then he said, "The man who took compassion on him." And Jesus said,
"Go and do the same way."
Abbreviations
ADJ adjective or adverb, depending on context
ATT attentive case postposition root
AGT agentive case postposition root
CONJ conjunction-forming suffix
DEM1 first-person demonstrative
DEM2 second-person demonstrative
DEM3 third-person demonstrative
NAME personal name marker suffix
NAME.P place name suffix
NAME.F tribe, nation, family name suffix
OPP1 opposite (complement of pair) suffix
OPP2 opposite quality suffix
P patient case postposition root
Q.WH WH-question clitic (forms "who", "where", etc.)
Q.YN yes-no question clitic (like "cxu" in Esperanto, but postpositive)
QUOTE begin-quote conjunction (there is no corresponding end-quote
particle, as in Lojban)
RESP respectful attitudinal suffix
V.ACT active verb suffix
V.REFL reflexive verb suffix
V.STATE stative verb suffix
-- Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/gzb/gzb.htm
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:16:49 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 06:19 , Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> Ray Brown skrev:
>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 10:11 , Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
[snip]
>>> Yes pretty much, tho it's actually [sQ'KQb_0].
>>
>>
>> ..with _hl_ used as in Zulu & Xhosa orthography :)
>
> And in Icelandic, tho only word-initially.
Yes, I knew the |hl| in Sohlob had rather more to do with Icelndic
spelling :)
[snip]
> > Bax
>
> ['pjA:s\i] for me, since I unlearnt ['bA:s\A]!
OK - I am actually having second thoughts on this. As ~bax uses the Roman
script as a syllabary, I am wondering whether in English and other
natlangs it would not be more satisfactory after all to have a proper
_alphabetic_ name for the language, namely Piashi.
That would mean the language was called Piashi, but written in the Piashi
_syllabary_ as ~bax (where the sign ~ indicates a proper name).
===========================
> On Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 08:53 , Andreas Johansson wrote:
[snip]
> Oh, and every body mispronounce these for me:
Oh, what the heck! I might as well join in the game :)
> Tairezazh
/'tajrezaZ/
> Kesheáras
/keSe'aras/
> Altaii
/al'taj.i/
> Meghean
/'mEgean/
> U-Rakh U-Nayargiz-ung
/u'ra:x una'jargIzUN/
> Telendlest
/te'lEndlest/
> Searixina
/sea'rIksina/
> Kalini Sapak
/ka'li:ni sa:pak/
> Steienzh
/'stej.EnZ/
Note: /a/ really is [a] and /r/ is trilled - I picked up these two sounds
during my sojourn in Wales :)
PS - apologies for any which might be correct.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:15:21 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Costanice Phonology Sketch
On Friday, April 15, 2005, at 04:43 , JS Bangs wrote:
> As some people had requested, here's a sketch of the phonology of
> Costanice. I have grammar sketches underway and an outline of the
> sound changes, but those will have to wait until later.
>
> VERY SHORT HISTORY
>
> The various regional dialects of Koine Greek begin to break up early
> into Hellenic and Byzantine groups.
Date? What are these 'Hellenic' but non-Byzantine groups? I thought the
point about Koine was that it the _common_ international (i.e.
non-regional) form, after all it is short for _he koine dialektos_ "the
common dialect" which, under the Roman Empire, completely eclipsed all the
earlier dialects (tho some Doric peculiarities appear to have survived in
Lakonia in southern Greece and in southern Italy).
My understanding is that Byzantine Greek was a developnment from the
Hellenistic Koine.
> When the Turks sacked
> Constantinople in 1452, several hundred refugees speaking Byzantine
> dialects were offered shelter by the Aragonese king,
So Constanice developed from 15th century Byzantine Greek? I had assumed
from some of the archaic features, e.g. the survival of the preposition
_en_ (for which Byzantine Greek had _es_) and declinable present active
participles, which had disappeared early in on Medieval Greek, that
Constanice has developed from a Greek speaking community cut off from the
rest of the Greek speaking world early in the Roman Empire.
If it developed from 15th century Byzantine Greek, how did these archaic
features come to be re-introduced into spoken Greek after being absent for
so many centuries? Or was Byzantine Greek different in IB than it was in
the Byzantine Empire *here*?
> and set up a
> community in Barcelona. From this point on the language was heavily
> influence by Spanish.
But isn't this a _Catalonian_ speaking area?
> About 150 years later their descendants began to
> emmigrate to South America where, after some oppression and a few
> failed revolutions, they eventually got their own state speaking their
> offshoot of Greek, now called Costanice ( < konstantinike:).
>
> PRONUNCIATION, THE SHORT VERSION
>
> Pronounce everything as in Castillian Spanish, except that |c| is [tS]
> before a front vowel, not [T]. [T] is always spelled |z|. Stress is
> always penultimate unless marked with an accent.
>
> (Actually, there's some difference with the vowels--see below.)
>
> CONSONANTS
> p t k
> b d g
> f T x
> v
> m n
> l r
>
> Pronunciation is basically as in Spanish. Voiced stops are spirantized
> between vowels, /r/ is a trill, etc. /v/ is marginal--it only occurs
> intervocalically, and for most speakers is [B], i.e. identical to
> intervocalic /b/.
How do the /b/, /d/, /g/ series fit in? What is their origin? From the
example of _zruebo_ below it, it suggests they developed from the voicing
earlier /p/, /t/ and /k/ in certain environments. I notice /v/ is there,
but what has happened to Byzantine /D/ and /G/ (from ancient delta & gamma)
? And what has happened to /z/ which has been part of the Greek phonemic
inventory for more two thousand years?
>
> /k/ and /g/ before front vowels become [tS] and [x] respectively.
I understand the palatalization of /k/ before front vowels; it occurs in
some modern dialects *here*. But why does /g/ apparently become a
fricative instead of being palatalized? What happens *here* in those
dialects that do palatalize is AFAIK:
/k/ --> [tS]
/x/ --> [S]
/G/ --> [j]
(The last is common to all dialects)
> Unlike in Spanish, this actually creates alternations within a
> paradigm: /igo/ > [iGo], /ige/ > [ixe]. (That's "house" in the
> nominative and dative, respectively.)
So, Constanice has revived the ancient _oikos_ for "house" which *here*
had disappeared from Byzantine Greek, having been replaced by Latin
borrowing _(h)ospition_ (modern greek _spiti_).
[snip]
> VOWELS
>
> The only vowel phones are [i u e o a]. However, there are three
> morphophonemic alternations involving [e] and two involving [o]. Each
> of these morphophonemes has three allophones: one when in pre-tonic
> syllables, one when in tonic (stressed) syllables, and one when in
> post-tonic syllables. The alternations are:
>
> PRE TONIC POST
> /e/ i e e
> /e:/ e ie e
> /ei/ e i e
> /o/ u o o
> /o:/ o ue o
>
> The symbols given in slashes represent the etymologies of each
> alternation, although synchronically that's completely arbitrary.
Sorry - I'm puzzled. Are you saying that in IB the ancient distinction
between long and short vowels , which had disappeared *here* at least by
the 4th cent CE, actually remained in Byzantine Greek till the 15th
century? *Here* also |ei| had become a _monophthong_ before the 5th cen
BCE, being, as far as we can tell, simple [e:] in Classical (Attic) Greek
(where eta was [E:]) before giving way sometime between the 4th & 3rd
cents BCE to [i:].
[snip]
> The most usual epenthetic consonant is _n_. For example:
> to zruebo the person
_zreubo_ is presumbly from Byzantine (and modern) /'anTropos/ - but why
the shift in stress from the initial syllable? The diphthongization of
stressed _Vulgar Latin_ /O/ had happened quite a few centuries before the
15th. It would seem from the above that in IB the word was pronounced
/'anTro:pos/ in Byzantium? Was the change of stress something that
happened after the Costanice speakers arrived in the Iberian peninsular?
I'm genuinely puzzled.
> ton igo the house
>
> But some words add a different, lexically determined consonant, such
> as _huesga(r)_ which adds an /r/:
Why /r/?
> Huesga sí because you (sg)...
> Huesgar imas because you (pl)...
Ah, so _imas_ (<-- ymas) survived in IB. *Here* it had become homophonous
with _imas_ "us" and been replaced by (e)sas well before the 15th cent.
> Other forms drop the vowel. The 2pl verbal conjugation is among these:
> poyide tudo you (pl) do this
> poyíd arte? you (pl) do what?
> Note that the stress remains on the same syllable, so an accent mark
> has to be written in the forms lacking final /e/.
I see the ancient _touto_ has survived - but what is origin of _arte_?
> Most interesting, though, is that some words alternate completely
> based on liason. Most propositions and the present conjugation of _to
> be_ are this way. Thus "from" is either _ap_ or _po_ depending on
> whether or not the following word begins with a vowel:
> po tudos from this one
> ap otos from him
> sti tudo It is this one.
> est oto It is he.
Are we assume that, unlike *here*, the old diphthong /aw/ survived in IB
Byzantine Greek? We do not know exactly when the shift from /aw/ to /av/ ~
/af/ took place *here*, but it was probably establish by early Medieval
period. Certainly *here* it was very well established by the 15th century
(indeed, probably for about 100 years). Is the change from /aw/ to /o/
something that took place in the post-exile development of Costanice, or
had it already taken place in Byzantine Greek in IB?
And ancient _esti_ has survived in IB; *here* it had been replaced by
_eni_ early in the Middle Ages (and that has now, through analogy with
other forms, become _ine_ in modern Greek).
This is both interesting and puzzling. It is obvious that Byzantine (and
earlier?) Greek had already developed differently in IB than it had *here*
long before the Turks (both in IB and *here*) caused the 'proto-Costanice'
to flee to the protection of the King of Aragon.
I may be mistaken, but it does seem to me that Constanice is basically
sound changes that happened to Vulgar Latin in Castilian Spanish to
ancient (not Byzantine) Greek pronounced (largely) in the Erasmian manner
(which would IMO give a very attractive result).
Now, obviously what you do with your own conlang and its associated
con-history is up to you (tho presumably if Costanice is one of the
languages of IB, the con-history should not contradict IB con-history),
but - and I am making this suggestion as a *friendly* suggestion -
There were Greek colonies in Spain at a very early date - certainly by the
6th cent BCE and possibly even earlier. Why not have Greeks moving from
the coast and setting up an enclave somewhere in the interior of the
Iberian peninsular (maybe, to flee from the growing power of the
Carthaginians) who would then have become isolated from developments over
in the Aegean area? This would account for a more conservative form of
Greek, preserving ancient forms which disappeared elsewhere. It would also
allow the changes similar to those that affected Vulgar Latin to affect
the development of Greek as spoken by these people.
Just a suggestion.
However - one point I feel I must mention. The form _zruebo_ seems to
derive fom the ghastly Henninian stress accentuation of ancient Greek (a
system *never* used by Greeks, either ancient or modern). It is due to a
17th cent Dutch doctor of medicine, Heinrich Christian Henning (who
Latinized himself as 'Henninius'), who put forward the remarkable theory
that the accents printed on Greek texts had nothing to do with ancient
pronunciation and that ancient Greek was pronounced with the same stress
rules as Classical Latin. For some reason, his ideas got adopted in the
Netherlands and in the UK and its erstwhile Empire. It was even for a time
used in the US until, early in the 19th century, German influence caused
the Americans to adopt saner ideas :)
We know that in fact the written accents do indicate the _pitch_ accent of
the ancients (the details of which we do not know in full) and *here* they
gave way to stress in the late Hellenic period. The rest of the world,
which wisely IMHO took no notice of Henninius, also stresses Greek this
way even where the Erasmian pronunciation is used.
I know that in conlangs and conhistories _anything_ is possible - but
Henninian stress - ach y fi!!!!
Ray
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http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:21:42 -0400
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: vocabulary
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> li toki e ni:
>any verbal root can have 4 uses (but the 4 may not all exist):
>Alone it will be an impersonnal verb, when it agrees with the arguments it's
>a descriptive/stative verb, when it has the marker "de" and agrees with an
>argument it's an active verb, and when it has the prefix "ai-" it's a noun.
>Also, I derived the verbs "die" and "kill" from the same root, "die" being
>the stative and "kill" the active
>But when I had to say what'd be the name related to that root, I realise it
>would mean both "death" and "murder"
Or "dying" and "killing".
Could you apply the nominalizer prefix to a verb that already has the "de"
marker?
I don't know what your actual root is, so
ai-[death] = death, dying
ai-de-[death] = killing (not necessarily "murder", as other posters have
pointed out).
Alternatively, you might have a noun phrase for killing - something like
"causing death"
ai-[cause] ai-[death]
(not necessarily in that order)
>(Out Topic question: why are there some much way to die
>and so less to born and live?)
Hm... maybe some cultures would want distinct words for
"be born naturally", "be born by C-section", "be born as one's
mother is dying", "be born at home", "be born in a hospital"...
maybe all derived from underlying verb forms meaning "give birth
[under such-and-such conditions]".
-- Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang.htm
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