Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5

[Gail Mooney via CoTyroneList]

Wonderfully written Ron. 

- Original Message -

From: "Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList"  
To: cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com 
Cc: "Ron McCoy"  
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 6:50:03 AM 
Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher 
Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5 



Hi Len and all 

Thank you Len for sharing this with all of us. I read this and many other 
pieces of history. I notice the trend through out of the lack of mention of 
positive attributes of the common people. Empathy for another human being is 
completely devoid in these reports. The time period scribes never seems to 
mention how hard working these people are, how close knit the families be, the 
way communities work together or the weight of unfair and unjust economic 
burdens they struggle under and still survive and more they insist on thriving 
in the face of great adversity. I think these Ordinances are important pieces 
of history not as much about what they report or say on the surface to us but 
because they tell us a lot about the writer and the class structure he dwells 
in. It seems important to him to paint a portrait of the Irish working class 
people at a level of sub human strata (you may see pigs and fowls eating in the 
kitchen and everything is dirty ). The considerable hardships people are forced 
to live in are justified because of their moral depravity, "49th: It is 
believed that there is at least an improvement in the morals and cleanliness of 
children attending Sunday Schools". This article to me paints a picture of a 
people who are brave in the face of over whelming poverty, and unjust taxation 
without representation overseen by absentee land lords. It speaks to me of a 
devotion to preserve the family and traditions at all costs. As people who are 
forced to struggle, their hope lies in their children and their children's, 
children, in other words "us". They would not allow themselves to quit, be 
broken, or trodden under, despite the written word, legal system and their 
betters opinion. They refused to think of themselves as less then any mans 
equal. They put all their hopes in the generations to come, they sacrificed 
everything to bring "us" into a safer , a better place... may we not let them 
down, may we never forget who they were and what they sacrificed for ,"us", for 
,"me". What they did was not easy and it was not pretty but they did it, a 
better world for us, those like us, those like them and those still to come. 
May we be able to say the same Thank you Len for bringing these pieces of 
history to us. 

Cheers 

Ron McCoy 

On 2018-10-25 10:20 PM, Gail Mooney via CoTyroneList wrote: 



Thanks Len - Even knowing the history of those hard times, this piece paints a 
pretty grim picture of the environments our people endured as they struggled to 
survive. I imagine depression was common in the population - reminds me to be 
more grateful for my lucky circumstances. 
- Original Message -

From: "Len Swindley via CoTyroneList"  
To: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com 
Cc: "Len Swindley"  
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 7:02:19 PM 
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher 
Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5 



Hello Listers; 



There has been recent interest expressed in the lives of our Tyrone forbears 
(thanks to Elwyn) and here is an extract from the Ordnance Survey Memoirs of 
the 1820s-30s that offers some observations on living conditions in Clogher 
parish. Having read through many of the memoirs covering the parishes of Co. 
Tyrone, this report could be applied similarly to all parishes. 



Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia 





EXTRACTED FROM ORDNANCE MEMOIRS OF IRELAND: PARISHES OF COUNTY TYRONE VOL. 1 
(INSTITUTE OF IRISH STUDIES, QUEEN’S UNIVERSITY OF BELFAST) (1990) 

STATISTICAL MEMOIR BY LIEUTENANT R. STOTHERD 

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: 

THE HABITS OF THE PEOPLE 

42nd: There is very little order, cleanliness, or neatness in general to be 
found either in the houses or of the more wealthy farmers or in the cottages of 
the poor. The turf stack often approaches within a few yards of the door and 
thus intersects the view and stops the currency of the air. The yard in front 
of the house is full of the odour of the cow house and stable, for they are 
often built in the very front and sometime adjoining the dwellinghouse. The 
lanes and approaches to the house are narrow, rough and filthy in the extreme. 
Within no order is visible; you may see pigs and fowls eating in the kitchen 
and everything is dirty and confused, the furniture a few pots and noggins, a 
stool or a broken chair. The potatoes at meals are thrown out in a basket and 
so laid on the table or on a stool, and the whole family gather round, master, 
mistress, children and servants in a mass, and eat out of the basket witho

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5

[Susan Black via CoTyroneList]

Thank you to Len and Ron for all that you share with us.

I greatly appreciate the snippets from past records. In this case, Ron 
has given us a good reflection from our distance.


The Ordnance Survey writer could only share /his opinions/ and is always 
writing for a particular audience. It is a /Statistical /memoir, as he 
sees things from his position. I imagine his surprise if he knew many of 
the same /people /would shortly be in a new land, progressive community 
members, building fine homes and businesses (always upgrading as means 
allowed), and an integral part of church and community.


Susan Black




On 2018-10-26 5:50 AM, Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList wrote:


Hi Len and all

Thank you Len for sharing this with all of us. I read this and many 
other pieces of history. I  notice the trend through out of the lack 
of mention of positive attributes of the common people. Empathy for 
another human being is completely devoid in these reports. The time 
period scribes never seems to mention how hard working these people 
are, how close knit the families be, the way communities work together 
or the weight of unfair and unjust economic burdens they struggle 
under and still survive and more they insist on  thriving in the face 
of great adversity. I think these Ordinances  are important pieces of 
history not as much about what they report or say on the surface to  
us  but because they tell us a lot about the writer and the class 
structure he dwells in. It seems important to him to paint a portrait 
of the Irish working class people at a level of sub human strata (you 
may see pigs and fowls eating in the kitchen and everything is dirty 
). The considerable hardships people are forced to live in are 
justified because of their moral depravity, "49th: It is believed that 
there is at least an improvement in the morals and cleanliness of 
children attending Sunday Schools". This article to me paints a 
picture of a people who are brave in the face of over whelming 
poverty, and unjust taxation without representation overseen by  
absentee land lords. It speaks to me of a devotion to preserve the 
family and traditions at all costs. As people who are forced to 
struggle, their hope lies in their children and their children's, 
children, in other words "us". They would not allow themselves to 
quit, be broken, or trodden under, despite the written word, legal 
system and their betters opinion. They refused to think of themselves 
as less then any mans equal. They put all their hopes in the 
generations to come, they sacrificed everything to bring "us" into a 
safer , a better place... may we not let them down, may we never 
forget who they were and what they sacrificed for ,"us", for ,"me". 
What they did was not easy and it was not pretty but they did it, a 
better world for us, those like us, those like them and those still to 
come. May we be able to say the same Thank you Len for bringing 
these pieces of history to us.


Cheers

Ron McCoy


On 2018-10-25 10:20 PM, Gail Mooney via CoTyroneList wrote:
Thanks Len - Even knowing the history of those hard times, this piece 
paints a pretty grim picture of the environments our people endured 
as they struggled to survive. I imagine depression was common in the 
population - reminds me to be more grateful for my lucky circumstances.


*From: *"Len Swindley via CoTyroneList" 


*To: *CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
*Cc: *"Len Swindley" 
*Sent: *Thursday, October 25, 2018 7:02:19 PM
*Subject: *[CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of 
Clogher Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5


Hello Listers;

There has been recent interest expressed in the lives of our Tyrone 
forbears (thanks to Elwyn) and here is an extract from the Ordnance 
Survey Memoirs of the 1820s-30s that offers some observations on 
living conditions in Clogher parish. Having read through many of the 
memoirs covering the parishes of Co. Tyrone, this report could be 
applied similarly to all parishes.


Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia

EXTRACTED FROM /ORDNANCE MEMOIRS OF IRELAND: PARISHES OF COUNTY 
TYRONE VOL. 1/ (INSTITUTE OF IRISH STUDIES, QUEEN’S UNIVERSITY OF 
BELFAST) (1990)


STATISTICAL MEMOIR BY LIEUTENANT R. STOTHERD

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS:

THE HABITS OF THE PEOPLE

42nd: There is very little order, cleanliness, or neatness in general 
to be found either in the houses or of the more wealthy farmers or in 
the cottages of the poor. The turf stack often approaches within a 
few yards of the door and thus intersects the view and stops the 
currency of the air. The yard in front of the house is full of the 
odour of the cow house and stable, for they are often built in the 
very front and sometime adjoining the dwellinghouse. The lanes and 
approaches to the house are narrow, rough and filthy in the extreme. 
Within 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5

[Katie Green via CoTyroneList]

Good morning,

One English writer who lived for some years in Ireland to run the postal system 
and was very complimentary to the ordinary Irish folk he knew was Anthony 
Trollop. Check it out!

Katie Green
On Oct 26, 2018, at 6:50 AM, Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList 
 wrote:

> Hi Len and all
> 
> Thank you Len for sharing this with all of us. I read this and many other 
> pieces of history. I  notice the trend through out of the lack of mention of 
> positive attributes of the common people. Empathy for another human being is 
> completely devoid in these reports. The time period scribes never seems to 
> mention how hard working these people are, how close knit the families be, 
> the way communities work together or the weight of unfair and unjust economic 
> burdens they struggle under and still survive and more they insist on  
> thriving in the face of great adversity. I think these Ordinances  are 
> important pieces of history not as much about what they report or say on the 
> surface to  us  but because they tell us a lot about the writer and the class 
> structure he dwells in. It seems important to him to paint a portrait of the 
> Irish working class people at a level of sub human strata (you may see pigs 
> and fowls eating in the kitchen and everything is dirty ). The considerable 
> hardships people are forced to live in are justified because of their moral 
> depravity, "49th: It is believed that there is at least an improvement in the 
> morals and cleanliness of children attending Sunday Schools". This article to 
> me paints a picture of a people who are brave in the face of over whelming 
> poverty, and unjust taxation without representation overseen by  absentee 
> land lords. It speaks to me of a devotion to preserve the family and 
> traditions at all costs. As people who are forced to struggle, their hope 
> lies in their children and their children's, children, in other words "us". 
> They would not allow themselves to quit, be broken, or trodden under, despite 
> the written word, legal system and their betters opinion. They refused to 
> think of themselves as less then any mans equal. They put all their hopes in 
> the generations to come, they sacrificed everything to bring "us" into a 
> safer , a better place... may we not let them down, may we never forget who 
> they were and what they sacrificed for ,"us", for ,"me". What they did was 
> not easy and it was not pretty but they did it, a better world for us, those 
> like us, those like them and those still to come. May we be able to say the 
> same Thank you Len for bringing these pieces of history to us.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ron McCoy
> 
> 
> On 2018-10-25 10:20 PM, Gail Mooney via CoTyroneList wrote:
>> Thanks Len - Even knowing the history of those hard times, this piece paints 
>> a pretty grim picture of the environments our people endured as they 
>> struggled to survive.  I imagine depression was common in the population - 
>> reminds me to be more grateful for my lucky circumstances.  
>> From: "Len Swindley via CoTyroneList" 
>> To: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
>> Cc: "Len Swindley" 
>> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 7:02:19 PM
>> Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher 
>> Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5
>> 
>> Hello Listers;
>>  
>> There has been recent interest expressed in the lives of our Tyrone forbears 
>> (thanks to Elwyn) and here is an extract from the Ordnance Survey Memoirs of 
>> the 1820s-30s that offers some observations on living conditions in Clogher 
>> parish. Having read through many of the memoirs covering the parishes of Co. 
>> Tyrone, this report could be applied similarly to all parishes.
>>  
>> Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
>>  
>>  
>> EXTRACTED FROM ORDNANCE MEMOIRS OF IRELAND: PARISHES OF COUNTY TYRONE VOL. 1 
>> (INSTITUTE OF IRISH STUDIES, QUEEN’S UNIVERSITY OF BELFAST) (1990)
>> STATISTICAL MEMOIR BY LIEUTENANT R. STOTHERD
>> ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS:
>> THE HABITS OF THE PEOPLE
>> 42nd: There is very little order, cleanliness, or neatness in general to be 
>> found either in the houses or of the more wealthy farmers or in the cottages 
>> of the poor. The turf stack often approaches within a few yards of the door 
>> and thus intersects the view and stops the currency of the air. The yard in 
>> front of the house is full of the odour of the cow house and stable, for 
>> they are often built in the very front and sometime adjoining the 
>> dwellinghouse. The lanes and approaches to the house are narrow, rough and 
>> filthy in th

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5

[Jacque Newman via CoTyroneList]

Beautifully written, Ron! 
Thank you so much.  
Jacquelyn

   
 

On Friday, October 26, 2018 9:20 AM, Liz Fitzgerald via CoTyroneList 
 wrote:
 

 #yiv6592541155 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Thank you. This paints a 
picture for me of my ancestors. Love it.From: CoTyroneList 
 on behalf of Len Swindley via 
CoTyroneList 
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 12:02 AM
To: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
Cc: Len Swindley
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher 
Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5 Hello Listers; There has been 
recent interest expressed in the lives of our Tyrone forbears (thanks to Elwyn) 
and here is an extract from the Ordnance Survey Memoirs of the 1820s-30s that 
offers some observations on living conditions in Clogher parish. Having read 
through many of the memoirs covering the parishes of Co. Tyrone, this report 
could be applied similarly to all parishes. Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia  
EXTRACTED FROM ORDNANCE MEMOIRS OF IRELAND: PARISHES OF COUNTY TYRONE VOL. 1 
(INSTITUTE OF IRISH STUDIES, QUEEN’S UNIVERSITY OF BELFAST) (1990)STATISTICAL 
MEMOIR BY LIEUTENANT R. STOTHERDANSWERS TO QUESTIONS:THE HABITS OF THE 
PEOPLE42nd: There is very little order, cleanliness, or neatness in general to 
be found either in the houses or of the more wealthy farmers or in the cottages 
of the poor. The turf stack often approaches within a few yards of the door and 
thus intersects the view and stops the currency of the air. The yard in front 
of the house is full of the odour of the cow house and stable, for they are 
often built in the very front and sometime adjoining the dwellinghouse. The 
lanes and approaches to the house are narrow, rough and filthy in the extreme. 
Within no order is visible; you may see pigs and fowls eating in the kitchen 
and everything is dirty and confused, the furniture a few pots and noggins, a 
stool or a broken chair. The potatoes at meals are thrown out in a basket and 
so laid on the table or on a stool, and the whole family gather round, master, 
mistress, children and servants in a mass, and eat out of the basket without 
knife, fork or any appendage at meals. A man who can give his daughter in 
marriage 50 or 100 pounds will live in this manner. But this is not universally 
the case: sometimes everything is seen comfortable, neat and clean, both within 
and without the farmhouse, the furniture good and decent, the kitchen neatly 
tiled, the outside of the house well whitewashed and thatched, the yard and 
lanes about the house in good repair and clean. It is, however, to be regretted 
that very few instances occur where this order and decency is observed. 
FOOD44th: Potatoes and milk is the general food of the farmers of this barony, 
for breakfast, dinner and supper during 9 months of the year. This is sometimes 
varied by a bit of bacon for dinner, sometimes butter and oaten bread or eggs 
are added to the potatoes for dinner. In 3 of the summer months when potatoes 
begin to fail, stirabout or flummery is substituted for potatoes, for breakfast 
or supper.45th: The same report will serve for the manufacturing class and 
tradespeople.46th: Potatoes and milk, or when milk grows scarce potatoes or 
herrings, or potatoes and salt is almost the only food of the poor inhabitants 
during the entire year. Occasionally a little stirabout is added for supper or 
breakfast in the summer months. EDUCATION47th: There is certainly a general 
desire of instruction in all classes of the people, both Protestants and Roman 
Catholics. The poor are anxious to teach their children reading, writing and 
arithmetic, and although the facilities for the education of the Roman 
Catholics is not so great as for the Protestants, being hindered by their 
priests from attending Sunday and other schools, yet there is certainly a 
desire in the minds even of the Roman Catholics for the education of their 
children.48th: The children of the poor pay for their education according to 
the following rates: for spelling and reading, for writing for arithmetic, for 
book-keeping [blank]49th: It is believed that there is at least an improvement 
in the morals and cleanliness of children attending Sunday Schools. They are 
not permitted to attend unless they are clean and they are expelled if any 
gross immorality be committed. It is also hoped that there is in the 
inhabitants in general, a greater respect for the laws, fewer quarrels and less 
fighting than formerly  Sent from Mail for Windows 10 
___
CoTyroneList mailing list
CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/
(_internal_name)s

   ___
CoTyroneList mailing list
CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/
(_internal_name)s

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5

[Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList]

Ron,


 
It’s sometimes possible to see our ancestors’lives through rose tinted glasses. 
Sometimes they didn’t live all that well, whether through fecklessnessor simply 
poverty. You are scathing about the description of houses where youcan see 
“pigs and fowls in the kitchen and everything is dirty.” The thing is,that is 
factually correct. That is how poorer folk did live. My own grandmotherwas 
brought up in a farm labourers cottage in the 1890s and she described abare 
earth floor where chickens and ducks wandered in and out through the 
door,defecating all over the place. They weren’t wealthy enough to have a pig 
but itwas common enough for livestock to be kept under the same roof, for 
securityand warmth. It must have been dirty and smelly, just as the OS 
descriptiontells us. You can see cottages like that today in the Cultra Folk 
Park museumoutside Belfast.  But that way of livingwas common enough in the 
1700s and 1800s, across Europe not just here inIreland. Up on the famous 
Scottish Island of St Kilda (150 miles north ofIreland) they had a dreadful 
neo-natal death rate. During the winter months, thesheep and cows were kept in 
the house alongside the family, at one end of thebuilding. A visiting nurse 
eventually discovered that whenever a child wasborn, the family dipped the end 
of the umbilical chord in the animal and humanmanure inside the building “for 
good luck.” Consequently half the babies caughtfatal diseases. And that was in 
the late 1800s.


 
Yousay: “The time period scribes never seems to mention how hard working 
thesepeople are, how close knit the families be, the way communities work 
togetheror the weight of unfair and unjust economic burdens they struggle under 
andstill survive and more they insist on thriving in the face of 
greatadversity”. What’s your evidence for that? Unless people have changed a 
lotover the past 200 years, I would expect they were the much same as today, a 
mixof hard workers, some who worked less hard and quite a few who led 
fairlydissipated lives. (Some of whom you can read about in the court 
newspaperreports on the Co Tyrone website.)


 
The men who compiled and wrote the OS memoirswere a mix of Army Officers and 
civilian assistants. (There’s a goodexplanation of who they were and how they 
worked at the beginning of everyvolume of the Memoirs). They weren’t all crusty 
upper class British Armyofficers. Many were non commissioned soldiers and 
civilian assistants. And the themesin the example Len quoted can be found 
elsewhere in reports for other Ulstercounties. So was there some vast 
conspiracy, do you think, or might thedescriptions (pejorative as they may seem 
at times) perhaps be reasonablyaccurate?


 

 
Elwyn


 

 


  From: Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList 
 To: "cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com"  
Cc: Ron McCoy 
 Sent: Friday, 26 October 2018, 12:52
 Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher 
Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5
   
Hi Len and allThank you Len for sharing this with all of us. I read this and 
many other pieces of history. I  notice the trend through out of the lack of 
mention of positive attributes of the common people. Empathy for another human 
being is completely devoid in these reports. The time period scribes never 
seems to mention how hard working these people are, how close knit the families 
be, the way communities work together or the weight of unfair and unjust 
economic burdens they struggle under and still survive and more they insist on  
thriving in the face of great adversity. I think these Ordinances  are 
important pieces of history not as much about what they report or say on the 
surface to  us  but because they tell us a lot about the writer and the class 
structure he dwells in. It seems important to him to paint a portrait of the 
Irish working class people at a level of sub human strata (you may see pigs and 
fowls eating in the kitchen and everything is dirty ). The considerable 
hardships people are forced to live in are justified because of their moral 
depravity, "49th: It is believed that there is at least an improvement in the 
morals and cleanliness of children attending Sunday Schools". This article to 
me paints a picture of a people who are brave in the face of over whelming 
poverty, and unjust taxation without representation overseen by  absentee land 
lords. It speaks to me of a devotion to preserve the family and traditions at 
all costs. As people who are forced to struggle, their hope lies in their 
children and their children's, children, in other words "us". They would not 
allow themselves to quit, be broken, or trodden under, despite the written 
word, legal system and their betters opinion. They refused to think of 
themselves as less then any mans equal. They put all their hopes in the 
generations to come, they sacrificed everything to bring "us" into a safer , a 
better place..

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5

[Liz Fitzgerald via CoTyroneList]

Thank you. This paints a picture for me of my ancestors. Love it.

From: CoTyroneList  on behalf of Len 
Swindley via CoTyroneList 
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 12:02 AM
To: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
Cc: Len Swindley
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher 
Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5


Hello Listers;



There has been recent interest expressed in the lives of our Tyrone forbears 
(thanks to Elwyn) and here is an extract from the Ordnance Survey Memoirs of 
the 1820s-30s that offers some observations on living conditions in Clogher 
parish. Having read through many of the memoirs covering the parishes of Co. 
Tyrone, this report could be applied similarly to all parishes.



Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia





EXTRACTED FROM ORDNANCE MEMOIRS OF IRELAND: PARISHES OF COUNTY TYRONE VOL. 1 
(INSTITUTE OF IRISH STUDIES, QUEEN’S UNIVERSITY OF BELFAST) (1990)

STATISTICAL MEMOIR BY LIEUTENANT R. STOTHERD

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS:

THE HABITS OF THE PEOPLE

42nd: There is very little order, cleanliness, or neatness in general to be 
found either in the houses or of the more wealthy farmers or in the cottages of 
the poor. The turf stack often approaches within a few yards of the door and 
thus intersects the view and stops the currency of the air. The yard in front 
of the house is full of the odour of the cow house and stable, for they are 
often built in the very front and sometime adjoining the dwellinghouse. The 
lanes and approaches to the house are narrow, rough and filthy in the extreme. 
Within no order is visible; you may see pigs and fowls eating in the kitchen 
and everything is dirty and confused, the furniture a few pots and noggins, a 
stool or a broken chair. The potatoes at meals are thrown out in a basket and 
so laid on the table or on a stool, and the whole family gather round, master, 
mistress, children and servants in a mass, and eat out of the basket without 
knife, fork or any appendage at meals. A man who can give his daughter in 
marriage 50 or 100 pounds will live in this manner. But this is not universally 
the case: sometimes everything is seen comfortable, neat and clean, both within 
and without the farmhouse, the furniture good and decent, the kitchen neatly 
tiled, the outside of the house well whitewashed and thatched, the yard and 
lanes about the house in good repair and clean. It is, however, to be regretted 
that very few instances occur where this order and decency is observed.



FOOD

44th: Potatoes and milk is the general food of the farmers of this barony, for 
breakfast, dinner and supper during 9 months of the year. This is sometimes 
varied by a bit of bacon for dinner, sometimes butter and oaten bread or eggs 
are added to the potatoes for dinner. In 3 of the summer months when potatoes 
begin to fail, stirabout or flummery is substituted for potatoes, for breakfast 
or supper.

45th: The same report will serve for the manufacturing class and tradespeople.

46th: Potatoes and milk, or when milk grows scarce potatoes or herrings, or 
potatoes and salt is almost the only food of the poor inhabitants during the 
entire year. Occasionally a little stirabout is added for supper or breakfast 
in the summer months.



EDUCATION

47th: There is certainly a general desire of instruction in all classes of the 
people, both Protestants and Roman Catholics. The poor are anxious to teach 
their children reading, writing and arithmetic, and although the facilities for 
the education of the Roman Catholics is not so great as for the Protestants, 
being hindered by their priests from attending Sunday and other schools, yet 
there is certainly a desire in the minds even of the Roman Catholics for the 
education of their children.

48th: The children of the poor pay for their education according to the 
following rates: for spelling and reading, for writing for arithmetic, for 
book-keeping [blank]

49th: It is believed that there is at least an improvement in the morals and 
cleanliness of children attending Sunday Schools. They are not permitted to 
attend unless they are clean and they are expelled if any gross immorality be 
committed. It is also hoped that there is in the inhabitants in general, a 
greater respect for the laws, fewer quarrels and less fighting than formerly





Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10


___
CoTyroneList mailing list
CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/
(_internal_name)s

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5

[Iola Whiteside via CoTyroneList]

Dear Ron,
You have expressed my thoughts perfectly!  Thank you.
iola Whiteside.

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 26, 2018, at 5:52 AM, Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Len and all
> 
> Thank you Len for sharing this with all of us. I read this and many other 
> pieces of history. I  notice the trend through out of the lack of mention of 
> positive attributes of the common people. Empathy for another human being is 
> completely devoid in these reports. The time period scribes never seems to 
> mention how hard working these people are, how close knit the families be, 
> the way communities work together or the weight of unfair and unjust economic 
> burdens they struggle under and still survive and more they insist on  
> thriving in the face of great adversity. I think these Ordinances  are 
> important pieces of history not as much about what they report or say on the 
> surface to  us  but because they tell us a lot about the writer and the class 
> structure he dwells in. It seems important to him to paint a portrait of the 
> Irish working class people at a level of sub human strata (you may see pigs 
> and fowls eating in the kitchen and everything is dirty ). The considerable 
> hardships people are forced to live in are justified because of their moral 
> depravity, "49th: It is believed that there is at least an improvement in the 
> morals and cleanliness of children attending Sunday Schools". This article to 
> me paints a picture of a people who are brave in the face of over whelming 
> poverty, and unjust taxation without representation overseen by  absentee 
> land lords. It speaks to me of a devotion to preserve the family and 
> traditions at all costs. As people who are forced to struggle, their hope 
> lies in their children and their children's, children, in other words "us". 
> They would not allow themselves to quit, be broken, or trodden under, despite 
> the written word, legal system and their betters opinion. They refused to 
> think of themselves as less then any mans equal. They put all their hopes in 
> the generations to come, they sacrificed everything to bring "us" into a 
> safer , a better place... may we not let them down, may we never forget who 
> they were and what they sacrificed for ,"us", for ,"me". What they did was 
> not easy and it was not pretty but they did it, a better world for us, those 
> like us, those like them and those still to come. May we be able to say the 
> same Thank you Len for bringing these pieces of history to us.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ron McCoy
> 
> 
>> On 2018-10-25 10:20 PM, Gail Mooney via CoTyroneList wrote:
>> Thanks Len - Even knowing the history of those hard times, this piece paints 
>> a pretty grim picture of the environments our people endured as they 
>> struggled to survive.  I imagine depression was common in the population - 
>> reminds me to be more grateful for my lucky circumstances.  
>> From: "Len Swindley via CoTyroneList" 
>> To: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
>> Cc: "Len Swindley" 
>> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 7:02:19 PM
>> Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher 
>> Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5
>> 
>> Hello Listers;
>>  
>> There has been recent interest expressed in the lives of our Tyrone forbears 
>> (thanks to Elwyn) and here is an extract from the Ordnance Survey Memoirs of 
>> the 1820s-30s that offers some observations on living conditions in Clogher 
>> parish. Having read through many of the memoirs covering the parishes of Co. 
>> Tyrone, this report could be applied similarly to all parishes.
>>  
>> Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
>>  
>>  
>> EXTRACTED FROM ORDNANCE MEMOIRS OF IRELAND: PARISHES OF COUNTY TYRONE VOL. 1 
>> (INSTITUTE OF IRISH STUDIES, QUEEN’S UNIVERSITY OF BELFAST) (1990)
>> STATISTICAL MEMOIR BY LIEUTENANT R. STOTHERD
>> ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS:
>> THE HABITS OF THE PEOPLE
>> 42nd: There is very little order, cleanliness, or neatness in general to be 
>> found either in the houses or of the more wealthy farmers or in the cottages 
>> of the poor. The turf stack often approaches within a few yards of the door 
>> and thus intersects the view and stops the currency of the air. The yard in 
>> front of the house is full of the odour of the cow house and stable, for 
>> they are often built in the very front and sometime adjoining the 
>> dwellinghouse. The lanes and approaches to the house are narrow, rough and 
>> filthy in the extreme. Within no order is visible; you may see pigs and 
>> fowls eating in the kitchen

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5

[Ron McCoy via CoTyroneList]

Hi Len and all

Thank you Len for sharing this with all of us. I read this and many other 
pieces of history. I  notice the trend through out of the lack of mention of 
positive attributes of the common people. Empathy for another human being is 
completely devoid in these reports. The time period scribes never seems to 
mention how hard working these people are, how close knit the families be, the 
way communities work together or the weight of unfair and unjust economic 
burdens they struggle under and still survive and more they insist on  thriving 
in the face of great adversity. I think these Ordinances  are important pieces 
of history not as much about what they report or say on the surface to  us  but 
because they tell us a lot about the writer and the class structure he dwells 
in. It seems important to him to paint a portrait of the Irish working class 
people at a level of sub human strata (you may see pigs and fowls eating in the 
kitchen and everything is dirty ). The considerable hardships people are forced 
to live in are justified because of their moral depravity, "49th: It is 
believed that there is at least an improvement in the morals and cleanliness of 
children attending Sunday Schools". This article to me paints a picture of a 
people who are brave in the face of over whelming poverty, and unjust taxation 
without representation overseen by  absentee land lords. It speaks to me of a 
devotion to preserve the family and traditions at all costs. As people who are 
forced to struggle, their hope lies in their children and their children's, 
children, in other words "us". They would not allow themselves to quit, be 
broken, or trodden under, despite the written word, legal system and their 
betters opinion. They refused to think of themselves as less then any mans 
equal. They put all their hopes in the generations to come, they sacrificed 
everything to bring "us" into a safer , a better place... may we not let them 
down, may we never forget who they were and what they sacrificed for ,"us", for 
,"me". What they did was not easy and it was not pretty but they did it, a 
better world for us, those like us, those like them and those still to come. 
May we be able to say the same Thank you Len for bringing these pieces of 
history to us.

Cheers

Ron McCoy

On 2018-10-25 10:20 PM, Gail Mooney via CoTyroneList wrote:
Thanks Len - Even knowing the history of those hard times, this piece paints a 
pretty grim picture of the environments our people endured as they struggled to 
survive.  I imagine depression was common in the population - reminds me to be 
more grateful for my lucky circumstances.

From: "Len Swindley via CoTyroneList" 
<mailto:cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com>
To: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com<mailto:CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com>
Cc: "Len Swindley" <mailto:len_swind...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 7:02:19 PM
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher 
Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5

Hello Listers;

There has been recent interest expressed in the lives of our Tyrone forbears 
(thanks to Elwyn) and here is an extract from the Ordnance Survey Memoirs of 
the 1820s-30s that offers some observations on living conditions in Clogher 
parish. Having read through many of the memoirs covering the parishes of Co. 
Tyrone, this report could be applied similarly to all parishes.

Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia


EXTRACTED FROM ORDNANCE MEMOIRS OF IRELAND: PARISHES OF COUNTY TYRONE VOL. 1 
(INSTITUTE OF IRISH STUDIES, QUEEN’S UNIVERSITY OF BELFAST) (1990)
STATISTICAL MEMOIR BY LIEUTENANT R. STOTHERD
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS:
THE HABITS OF THE PEOPLE
42nd: There is very little order, cleanliness, or neatness in general to be 
found either in the houses or of the more wealthy farmers or in the cottages of 
the poor. The turf stack often approaches within a few yards of the door and 
thus intersects the view and stops the currency of the air. The yard in front 
of the house is full of the odour of the cow house and stable, for they are 
often built in the very front and sometime adjoining the dwellinghouse. The 
lanes and approaches to the house are narrow, rough and filthy in the extreme. 
Within no order is visible; you may see pigs and fowls eating in the kitchen 
and everything is dirty and confused, the furniture a few pots and noggins, a 
stool or a broken chair. The potatoes at meals are thrown out in a basket and 
so laid on the table or on a stool, and the whole family gather round, master, 
mistress, children and servants in a mass, and eat out of the basket without 
knife, fork or any appendage at meals. A man who can give his daughter in 
marriage 50 or 100 pounds will live in this manner. But this is not universally 
the case: sometimes everything is seen comfortable, neat and clean, b

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5

[Gail Mooney via CoTyroneList]

Thanks Len - Even knowing the history of those hard times, this piece paints a 
pretty grim picture of the environments our people endured as they struggled to 
survive. I imagine depression was common in the population - reminds me to be 
more grateful for my lucky circumstances. 
- Original Message -

From: "Len Swindley via CoTyroneList"  
To: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com 
Cc: "Len Swindley"  
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 7:02:19 PM 
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher 
Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5 



Hello Listers; 



There has been recent interest expressed in the lives of our Tyrone forbears 
(thanks to Elwyn) and here is an extract from the Ordnance Survey Memoirs of 
the 1820s-30s that offers some observations on living conditions in Clogher 
parish. Having read through many of the memoirs covering the parishes of Co. 
Tyrone, this report could be applied similarly to all parishes. 



Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia 





EXTRACTED FROM ORDNANCE MEMOIRS OF IRELAND: PARISHES OF COUNTY TYRONE VOL. 1 
(INSTITUTE OF IRISH STUDIES, QUEEN’S UNIVERSITY OF BELFAST) (1990) 

STATISTICAL MEMOIR BY LIEUTENANT R. STOTHERD 

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: 

THE HABITS OF THE PEOPLE 

42nd: There is very little order, cleanliness, or neatness in general to be 
found either in the houses or of the more wealthy farmers or in the cottages of 
the poor. The turf stack often approaches within a few yards of the door and 
thus intersects the view and stops the currency of the air. The yard in front 
of the house is full of the odour of the cow house and stable, for they are 
often built in the very front and sometime adjoining the dwellinghouse. The 
lanes and approaches to the house are narrow, rough and filthy in the extreme. 
Within no order is visible; you may see pigs and fowls eating in the kitchen 
and everything is dirty and confused, the furniture a few pots and noggins, a 
stool or a broken chair. The potatoes at meals are thrown out in a basket and 
so laid on the table or on a stool, and the whole family gather round, master, 
mistress, children and servants in a mass, and eat out of the basket without 
knife, fork or any appendage at meals. A man who can give his daughter in 
marriage 50 or 100 pounds will live in this manner. But this is not universally 
the case: sometimes everything is seen comfortable, neat and clean, both within 
and without the farmhouse, the furniture good and decent, the kitchen neatly 
tiled, the outside of the house well whitewashed and thatched, the yard and 
lanes about the house in good repair and clean. It is, however, to be regretted 
that very few instances occur where this order and decency is observed. 



FOOD 

44th: Potatoes and milk is the general food of the farmers of this barony, for 
breakfast, dinner and supper during 9 months of the year. This is sometimes 
varied by a bit of bacon for dinner, sometimes butter and oaten bread or eggs 
are added to the potatoes for dinner. In 3 of the summer months when potatoes 
begin to fail, stirabout or flummery is substituted for potatoes, for breakfast 
or supper. 

45th: The same report will serve for the manufacturing class and tradespeople. 

46th: Potatoes and milk, or when milk grows scarce potatoes or herrings, or 
potatoes and salt is almost the only food of the poor inhabitants during the 
entire year. Occasionally a little stirabout is added for supper or breakfast 
in the summer months. 



EDUCATION 

47th: There is certainly a general desire of instruction in all classes of the 
people, both Protestants and Roman Catholics. The poor are anxious to teach 
their children reading, writing and arithmetic, and although the facilities for 
the education of the Roman Catholics is not so great as for the Protestants, 
being hindered by their priests from attending Sunday and other schools, yet 
there is certainly a desire in the minds even of the Roman Catholics for the 
education of their children. 

48th: The children of the poor pay for their education according to the 
following rates: for spelling and reading, for writing for arithmetic, for 
book-keeping [blank] 

49th: It is believed that there is at least an improvement in the morals and 
cleanliness of children attending Sunday Schools. They are not permitted to 
attend unless they are clean and they are expelled if any gross immorality be 
committed. It is also hoped that there is in the inhabitants in general, a 
greater respect for the laws, fewer quarrels and less fighting than formerly 





Sent from Mail for Windows 10 



___ 
CoTyroneList mailing list 
CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com 
http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
(_internal_name)s 

___
CoTyroneList mailing list
CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/
(_internal_name)s

[CoTyroneMailingList] Observations on the Inhabitants of Clogher Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1833-5

[Len Swindley via CoTyroneList]

Hello Listers;

There has been recent interest expressed in the lives of our Tyrone forbears 
(thanks to Elwyn) and here is an extract from the Ordnance Survey Memoirs of 
the 1820s-30s that offers some observations on living conditions in Clogher 
parish. Having read through many of the memoirs covering the parishes of Co. 
Tyrone, this report could be applied similarly to all parishes.

Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia


EXTRACTED FROM ORDNANCE MEMOIRS OF IRELAND: PARISHES OF COUNTY TYRONE VOL. 1 
(INSTITUTE OF IRISH STUDIES, QUEEN’S UNIVERSITY OF BELFAST) (1990)
STATISTICAL MEMOIR BY LIEUTENANT R. STOTHERD
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS:
THE HABITS OF THE PEOPLE
42nd: There is very little order, cleanliness, or neatness in general to be 
found either in the houses or of the more wealthy farmers or in the cottages of 
the poor. The turf stack often approaches within a few yards of the door and 
thus intersects the view and stops the currency of the air. The yard in front 
of the house is full of the odour of the cow house and stable, for they are 
often built in the very front and sometime adjoining the dwellinghouse. The 
lanes and approaches to the house are narrow, rough and filthy in the extreme. 
Within no order is visible; you may see pigs and fowls eating in the kitchen 
and everything is dirty and confused, the furniture a few pots and noggins, a 
stool or a broken chair. The potatoes at meals are thrown out in a basket and 
so laid on the table or on a stool, and the whole family gather round, master, 
mistress, children and servants in a mass, and eat out of the basket without 
knife, fork or any appendage at meals. A man who can give his daughter in 
marriage 50 or 100 pounds will live in this manner. But this is not universally 
the case: sometimes everything is seen comfortable, neat and clean, both within 
and without the farmhouse, the furniture good and decent, the kitchen neatly 
tiled, the outside of the house well whitewashed and thatched, the yard and 
lanes about the house in good repair and clean. It is, however, to be regretted 
that very few instances occur where this order and decency is observed.

FOOD
44th: Potatoes and milk is the general food of the farmers of this barony, for 
breakfast, dinner and supper during 9 months of the year. This is sometimes 
varied by a bit of bacon for dinner, sometimes butter and oaten bread or eggs 
are added to the potatoes for dinner. In 3 of the summer months when potatoes 
begin to fail, stirabout or flummery is substituted for potatoes, for breakfast 
or supper.
45th: The same report will serve for the manufacturing class and tradespeople.
46th: Potatoes and milk, or when milk grows scarce potatoes or herrings, or 
potatoes and salt is almost the only food of the poor inhabitants during the 
entire year. Occasionally a little stirabout is added for supper or breakfast 
in the summer months.

EDUCATION
47th: There is certainly a general desire of instruction in all classes of the 
people, both Protestants and Roman Catholics. The poor are anxious to teach 
their children reading, writing and arithmetic, and although the facilities for 
the education of the Roman Catholics is not so great as for the Protestants, 
being hindered by their priests from attending Sunday and other schools, yet 
there is certainly a desire in the minds even of the Roman Catholics for the 
education of their children.
48th: The children of the poor pay for their education according to the 
following rates: for spelling and reading, for writing for arithmetic, for 
book-keeping [blank]
49th: It is believed that there is at least an improvement in the morals and 
cleanliness of children attending Sunday Schools. They are not permitted to 
attend unless they are clean and they are expelled if any gross immorality be 
committed. It is also hoped that there is in the inhabitants in general, a 
greater respect for the laws, fewer quarrels and less fighting than formerly


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

___
CoTyroneList mailing list
CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com
http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/
(_internal_name)s