Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] How do you pronounce "Ye" ??
V interesting discussion re the Irish language. Thank you! My Gaeilge is v rusty. Learned English grammar through Irish many moons ago when I was about 10 yrs old. I remember the teacher trying to teach us about slender (‘coal’ = kweel) and broad (‘leathan’ = lahan) vowels. Liz Conlon Groves, Lethbridge, AB, Canada > On May 13, 2020, at 7:02 PM, Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList > wrote: > > Well Jim, > > I like that explanation. It recalls to some extent the background of the > /séimhiú /or lenition in Irish Gaeli/c - //Gaeilge/ - a very, very old > language. The 'h' is not part of the Irish alphabet, which helps to explain > in part, the difficulty in pronunciation of Irish Gaelic. > > In Irish, the /séimhiú/ is used to soften the sound of the letter and in old > Irish was represented by a 'dot' over the consonant. This can be seen in the > Book of Kells, for instance. The dot became difficult to reproduce when > printing became common so a letter, which isn't otherwise used in Irish, the > 'h', was used. The /séimhiú /is applied to consonants and is a bit like the > accents used in many languages to modify the sound of letters - usually a > vowels. > > To take an example, the 'b', which in /Gaeilge /normally sounds like the > English 'b' or 'b-yah' (depending on whether it's sandwiched between broad or > slender vowels) becomes, when lenited as in 'bh', a 'w' or 'v' sound > (depending on whether it's sandwiched between broad or slender vowels). Or > the 'f', which sounds like the English 'f' or 'f-yah' (depending on whether > it's sandwiched between broad or slender vowels), becomes silent when the > /séimhiú /is added as in 'fh'. > // > > Trying to read modern Irish, especially out loud, can be trying for the > novice. > > Thanks for the reference. > > Gordon > > BTW, can anyone on this list speak /Gaeilge/ ? Ulster Gaelic /- Gaeilge > Uladh/ - is still common in parts of Donegal. > > > // > > On 13/05/2020 7:11 pm, Jim McKane via CoTyroneList wrote: >> Well, I was very surprised at the correct answer >> >> https://blog.eogn.com/2020/05/12/how-do-you-pronounce-ye-2/ >> >> Enjoy! >> >> Jim McKane >> Kitchener, Ontario >> ___ >> CoTyroneList Mailing List >> Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com >> Change Your Preferences: >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > > -- > _ > Nereda & Gordon Wilkinson, Hyde Park, South Australia. > Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon Skype id: neredon > Emails: gordon.wilkin...@ozemail.com.aunereda.wilkin...@ozemail.com.au > > ___ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] How do you pronounce "Ye" ??
Well Jim, I like that explanation. It recalls to some extent the background of the /séimhiú /or lenition in Irish Gaeli/c - //Gaeilge/ - a very, very old language. The 'h' is not part of the Irish alphabet, which helps to explain in part, the difficulty in pronunciation of Irish Gaelic. In Irish, the /séimhiú/ is used to soften the sound of the letter and in old Irish was represented by a 'dot' over the consonant. This can be seen in the Book of Kells, for instance. The dot became difficult to reproduce when printing became common so a letter, which isn't otherwise used in Irish, the 'h', was used. The /séimhiú /is applied to consonants and is a bit like the accents used in many languages to modify the sound of letters - usually a vowels. To take an example, the 'b', which in /Gaeilge /normally sounds like the English 'b' or 'b-yah' (depending on whether it's sandwiched between broad or slender vowels) becomes, when lenited as in 'bh', a 'w' or 'v' sound (depending on whether it's sandwiched between broad or slender vowels). Or the 'f', which sounds like the English 'f' or 'f-yah' (depending on whether it's sandwiched between broad or slender vowels), becomes silent when the /séimhiú /is added as in 'fh'. // Trying to read modern Irish, especially out loud, can be trying for the novice. Thanks for the reference. Gordon BTW, can anyone on this list speak /Gaeilge/ ? Ulster Gaelic /- Gaeilge Uladh/ - is still common in parts of Donegal. // On 13/05/2020 7:11 pm, Jim McKane via CoTyroneList wrote: Well, I was very surprised at the correct answer https://blog.eogn.com/2020/05/12/how-do-you-pronounce-ye-2/ Enjoy! Jim McKane Kitchener, Ontario ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY -- _ Nereda & Gordon Wilkinson, Hyde Park, South Australia. Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon Skype id: neredon Emails: gordon.wilkin...@ozemail.com.aunereda.wilkin...@ozemail.com.au ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] How do you pronounce "Ye" ??
And my M'Elrea became Mylrea on the Isle of Man!Kathleen On Wed, 13 May 2020 03:22:10 -0700 elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList wrote There’s similar confusion over the letter Z as it appears in surnames inIreland and Scotland. Gaelic doesn’t have the letter Y and scholars,perhaps unwisely, decided to express that sound using the letter Z instead.So the surname Dalziel is correctly pronounced Dee-Yell. (But sometimes nowspelled Dalyell). Menzies is pronounced Men us or Min us. McKenzie wasoriginally pronounced McKinney. Because of this rather confusingarrangement, in many cases people have started pronouncing the names theway they are spelled. So you can have two totally different pronunciationsof the same word or two quite different spellings of the same surname.So don’t worry too much about the “correct” spelling of any surname, or whya couple of letters may have disappeared over the years. Or whether it wasMc or Mac. (It was originally neither. Early documents mostly use M’).Elwyn ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] How do you pronounce "Ye" ??
There’s similar confusion over the letter Z as it appears in surnames in Ireland and Scotland. Gaelic doesn’t have the letter Y and scholars, perhaps unwisely, decided to express that sound using the letter Z instead. So the surname Dalziel is correctly pronounced Dee-Yell. (But sometimes now spelled Dalyell). Menzies is pronounced Men us or Min us. McKenzie was originally pronounced McKinney. Because of this rather confusing arrangement, in many cases people have started pronouncing the names the way they are spelled. So you can have two totally different pronunciations of the same word or two quite different spellings of the same surname. So don’t worry too much about the “correct” spelling of any surname, or why a couple of letters may have disappeared over the years. Or whether it was Mc or Mac. (It was originally neither. Early documents mostly use M’). Elwyn On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 10:42, Jim McKane via CoTyroneList < cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote: > Well, I was very surprised at the correct answer > > https://blog.eogn.com/2020/05/12/how-do-you-pronounce-ye-2/ > > Enjoy! > > Jim McKane > Kitchener, Ontario > ___ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
