Dear All,
The missing property of outcome is so far deliberate in the CRM, because
we could not identify a general case. In contrast, there are models with
input-output semantics, but this is a very small subset.
As in all such cases, we first need a collection of examples, and study
if there exist common semantics, or if it splits in a set of more
specific cases. I'd expect about 5 kinds of outcomes. If you give me the
time, I can present in the next meeting some.
All the best,
Martin
On 12/20/2021 6:45 PM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote:
Hi Thanasi,
The proposal creates a consistent way of doing the 'type of' version
of a property that relates one particular to another particular.
So each individual property:
https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P20-had-specific-purpose/version-7.1.1
has its typed version like:
https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P21-had-general-purpose/version-7.1.1
Right?
But I contend there IS NO particular property in regular CRM that
expresses the semantics I indicate above (therefore the
proposal cannot generate its typed version). P21 DOES NOT express the
semantics I need (hence also not P23).
O13 triggers more or less does. in particular. But I need the
generalization. Triggered an outcome of type.
Anyhow, not sure if anyone else needs this, but very common in my data.
Cheers,
G
On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 4:35 PM Athanasios Velios
<thana...@softicon.co.uk> wrote:
Following Athina's response and in relation to the question about the
extant properties, I guess the "type of type" can be replicated with
thesaurus related properties (e.g. P127 has broader term). I would
consider the instances of E55 Type slightly differently to normal
instances and not extent the idea to them.
T.
On 14/12/2021 19:42, George Bruseker wrote:
> Hi Thanasi,
>
> Yes that's true. Good reminder. That might be a solution but
then we
> would need the particular property for expressing that two
events are
> causally connected. I avoided to put it in the last email so as
not to
> stir up to many semantic teapots. But obviously to have the general
> property we should have the particular property. So we have for
example
> we have the particular properties:
>
>
https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P20-had-specific-purpose/version-7.1.1
>
<https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P20-had-specific-purpose/version-7.1.1>
> and
>
https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P21-had-general-purpose/version-7.1.1
>
<https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P21-had-general-purpose/version-7.1.1>
>
> so the analogy to this in my situation is probably
>
> O13 triggers (is triggered by)
> https://cidoc-crm.org/crmsci/sites/default/files/CRMsci%20v.1.4.pdf
>
<https://cidoc-crm.org/crmsci/sites/default/files/CRMsci%20v.1.4.pdf>
> and we need the analogy of p21 to make the model complete....
>
> On another note out of curiosity, in the extension where every
property
> has a 'type of' property what happens with the extant 'type of'
> properties? I assume there isn't any has general purpose of type
> property... or is there?
>
> Cheers
>
> G
>
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 9:20 PM Athanasios Velios via Crm-sig
> <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
>
> Hi George, all,
>
> As part of Linked Conservation Data (and with the help of
Carlo, Martin
> and Steve) we proposed the idea of Typed Properties which
derive from
> current CRM properties and always have E55 Type as range.
>
> E.g. "bears feature" → "bears feature of type" so that one
can describe
> the type of something without specifying the individual. It
is very
> economical in conservation where we want to avoid describing
> hundreds of
> individuals of similar types.
>
> We are still baking the exact impact of such a reduction from
> individuals to Types. One issue in RDFS is the multitude of new
> properties. There seems to be a simple implementation in OWL
with
> property paths. Not an immediate solution but a flag for
more to come.
>
> All the best,
>
> Thanasis
>
> On 14/12/2021 15:49, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have situations in which I have events where the data
curators
> > describe events for which they have generic knowledge of the
> outcome:
> > sold, completed, incomplete, this sort of thing. So there is
> knowledge
> > but it is not knowledge of the particular next event but of a
> general
> > kind of outcome.
> >
> > We have properties like: P21 had general purpose (was
purpose of)
> which
> > is very useful for when the data curator only has generic
knowledge
> > knowledge and not particular knowledge regarding purpose.
This
> seems a
> > parallel to this case.
> >
> > Anybody else have this case and have an interest in a
property
> like 'had
> > general outcome' or 'had outcome of type' that goes from
Event to a
> > Type? Or, better yet if possible, a solution that doesn't
involve
> a new
> > property but that does meet this semantic need without
too many
> contortions?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > George
> >
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