Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 2/27/19 5:52 PM, Nathaniel Kipps wrote: > Since there has not been much else mentioned in the last week, does > anyone else have input, or should I take this as permission to > resurrect the bridge this weekend? Direct responses from Leaf and ryo > are below; mwedel and Partmedia have commented, but have not directly > expressed their support. I would say proceed with the irc bridge set up. I've updated the IRC topic to the following: Topic for #crossfire is: Topic for irc://irc.freenode.net/#crossfire is: Crossfire RPG http://crossfire.real-time.com | Messageboard: http://forum.metalforge.net | IRC channel is using a connection bridge with Discord where conversations are logged - your presence on this channel accepts that provision | Discord channel @ https://discord.gg/CCQqbqu | Common courtesy expected ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
Since there has not been much else mentioned in the last week, does anyone else have input, or should I take this as permission to resurrect the bridge this weekend? Direct responses from Leaf and ryo are below; mwedel and Partmedia have commented, but have not directly expressed their support. --DraugTheWhopper On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 2:45 PM Nicolas Weeger wrote: > Seems fine to me. > > Le lundi 18 février 2019 22:29:52, Rick Tanner a écrit : > > After discussion and raised concerns about privacy, questions answered, > > etc. > > > > My thoughts: > > > > * Proceed with the implementation of a IRC & Discord bridge > > * Two month archive history in Discord > > * Channel topic update on IRC to alert users that conversations are > > logged in Discord for two months > > * Same guidance and recommendations on both channels in regards to > > civility (or right now - IRC channel guidance applying to Discord channel) > > * The bridge goes live at the end of the month or around Mar-1-2019 > > > > Feedback from anyone else on this? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
Hello. Seems fine to me. For the archive history, 2 months seems ok to me. It won't be indexed, apparently. Besides, everyone knows (I hope :)) that chats on IRC that need to be persisted should be sent to the mailing list :p Best regards Nicolas Le lundi 18 février 2019 22:29:52, Rick Tanner a écrit : > After discussion and raised concerns about privacy, questions answered, > etc. > > My thoughts: > > * Proceed with the implementation of a IRC & Discord bridge > * Two month archive history in Discord > * Channel topic update on IRC to alert users that conversations are > logged in Discord for two months > * Same guidance and recommendations on both channels in regards to > civility (or right now - IRC channel guidance applying to Discord channel) > * The bridge goes live at the end of the month or around Mar-1-2019 > > Feedback from anyone else on this? > > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
the archive is not an issue at all. It is sending my communications tog a privately owned communications server that is the problem. I charge $20.00 USD per world for the use of anything I write or speak on any privately owned commercial venture including, but not limited to Discord On 02/18/2019 04:44 PM, Rick Tanner wrote: Anyone else have any thoughts on the archive/history length? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 04:47:26PM -0800, Mark Wedel wrote: > On 02/18/2019 03:56 PM, bill billy wrote: > > > Anyone else have any thoughts on the archive/history length? > > > >I personally think it should be unlimited. IMO to base a limit on > >time would prevent long term threads and to base it on the number > >of posts (i.e delete after 100 or even 1000) could cause important > >conversations to be forgotten. > >Neither the mailing list, irc or the forums have such limitations > >so I'm just not sure why there should be one for Discord. I have no problem with the privacy, perse. I don't want to be actively tracked or investigated because out communications is now being transmited to a for profit, proprietary platform which we have zero say or rights over. > > Unlimited seems fine to me also. Partly because trying to limit it > to 2 months may be difficult - whoever is logging it may purge those > after 2 months, but if some other service is searching the web, > finds them, it could cache them forever, and really be beyond the > control of the initial logging service. > > It also seems to me that someone could take a chat log and post it > someplace else outside of any logging service. Is that against the > terms, and what could one really do about it. It does seem to me > that occasionally this happens - someone cuts/pastes from IRC and > sends it in an e-mail or bug report to provide context, and those > last forever. Though I may be confusing that with other projects - > not 100% sure that has happened with #crossfire. > > Certainly worth noting somewhere the the chat is being logged, so > it is not a surprise to anyone. > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 02/18/2019 03:56 PM, bill billy wrote: > Anyone else have any thoughts on the archive/history length? I personally think it should be unlimited. IMO to base a limit on time would prevent long term threads and to base it on the number of posts (i.e delete after 100 or even 1000) could cause important conversations to be forgotten. Neither the mailing list, irc or the forums have such limitations so I'm just not sure why there should be one for Discord. Unlimited seems fine to me also. Partly because trying to limit it to 2 months may be difficult - whoever is logging it may purge those after 2 months, but if some other service is searching the web, finds them, it could cache them forever, and really be beyond the control of the initial logging service. It also seems to me that someone could take a chat log and post it someplace else outside of any logging service. Is that against the terms, and what could one really do about it. It does seem to me that occasionally this happens - someone cuts/pastes from IRC and sends it in an e-mail or bug report to provide context, and those last forever. Though I may be confusing that with other projects - not 100% sure that has happened with #crossfire. Certainly worth noting somewhere the the chat is being logged, so it is not a surprise to anyone. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
> Anyone else have any thoughts on the archive/history length? I personally think it should be unlimited. IMO to base a limit on time would prevent long term threads and to base it on the number of posts (i.e delete after 100 or even 1000) could cause important conversations to be forgotten. Neither the mailing list, irc or the forums have such limitations so I'm just not sure why there should be one for Discord.___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 2/18/19 3:41 PM, Nathaniel Kipps wrote: > On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 4:30 PM Rick Tanner wrote: >> * Two month archive history in Discord > > Although I would personally prefer an unlimited history, I think two > months is reasonable. Anyone else have any thoughts on the archive/history length? >> * Same guidance and recommendations on both channels in regards to >> civility (or right now - IRC channel guidance applying to Discord channel) > > Is there an official list of those guidelines and recommendations? > Unfortunately, I won't be back at my computer for awhile, so I can't > check the current IRC topic... So far, after about 5.5 years, this has worked and is mentioned at the end of the IRC topic. "Common courtesy is expected" ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 4:30 PM Rick Tanner wrote: > * Two month archive history in Discord Although I would personally prefer an unlimited history, I think two months is reasonable. > * Same guidance and recommendations on both channels in regards to > civility (or right now - IRC channel guidance applying to Discord channel) Is there an official list of those guidelines and recommendations? Unfortunately, I won't be back at my computer for awhile, so I can't check the current IRC topic... ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
After discussion and raised concerns about privacy, questions answered, etc. My thoughts: * Proceed with the implementation of a IRC & Discord bridge * Two month archive history in Discord * Channel topic update on IRC to alert users that conversations are logged in Discord for two months * Same guidance and recommendations on both channels in regards to civility (or right now - IRC channel guidance applying to Discord channel) * The bridge goes live at the end of the month or around Mar-1-2019 Feedback from anyone else on this? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 3:50 PM Rick Tanner wrote: > Are the chat archives in Discord only available to members logged in to > the channel? > > Or are chat logs available for search engines to index, or outside > entities to download, etc.? Discord chat history is only available to current members of that server, and is not publicly archived or indexed. Technically, anyone running a bot in the server would also have access through their bot as well. Also, Discord's staff could presumably snoop on the server if they had a reason to (e.g., it was reported as violating TOS), but the assumption is that they will not do so unless they have a good reason. However, keep in mind that if a link to the Discord is published, then that means anyone could join it on a whim. This could be countered by restricting access to most channels until a moderator manually assigns them a role, but this is a bit far fetched. After all, anyone could join the IRC and log it as well, if they were so inclined --DraugTheWhopper ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
Are the chat archives in Discord only available to members logged in to the channel? Or are chat logs available for search engines to index, or outside entities to download, etc.? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 2/8/19 11:54 AM, greenscene8 wrote: > the i tended purpose the intended purpose is to make money for venture capital -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 2/8/19 7:01 PM, Nathaniel Kipps wrote: > I think the two mentioned were Discord and Slack. I think that both of > them are great choices, they are both propreitary systems and non-starters -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 2/8/19 5:16 PM, Rick Tanner wrote: > I appear to be overlooking something.. Where is the "ownership" of > Crossfire shown or listed? A better question is who is the ownership of Discourse? It sure isn't anyone that can be trust for say, most of our lifetime From the FSF site: Antifeature: Backpedaling Community The godot website indirectly promotes the use of non-free/libre software like Discord or steam but it also promotes the use of social medias who are known for their unethical behaviour like censoring and tracking while having solutions like GNUsocial, postactiv, jitsi, tox and more. The software itself is still under a free license. It would be nicer if a native C or C++ linux/bsd client was produced with a better chat interface which was always problematic at best. 'shout Hello ALL instead of wasting effort to connect to a proprietary software which will sell our personal information to the highest bidder and expose users to government tracking, there are still some nice work that can be done on the interface for communications and map rendering. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 5:24 PM Rick Tanner wrote: > What are the options or choices for the bridge services that you mention? I think the two mentioned were Discord and Slack. I think that both of them are great choices, due to their familiarity among large groups of people. There are also options, Telegram is one that comes to mind. I would certainly lean toward Discord, for several reasons. First and foremost, it's already the primary communication system for the majority of people who play videogames on PC platforms. Since CF is a videogame, it would make sense to cater to this crowd of people. Secondly, I'm quite familiar with Discord, and I've already managed to cobble together the bot, so in the absence of anyone else stepping up to maintain it, I am certainly capable. If Discord is catered toward gamers, then Slack is catered toward enterprise users. It is intended for collaboration inside an enterprise, where users are provisioned and managed by an administrator, and possibly having chats and users organized by groups and departments. > As for retention time - does the EU Data Retention Directive apply here? > "According to the directive, member states had to store citizens' > telecommunications data for a minimum of 6 months and at most 24 > months." What about other guidelines or recommendations? I am not in the EU, nor am I a good resource to ask about GDPR. About all I can do is point you to Discord's FAQ regarding their compliance with the GDPR: https://support.discordapp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360003858092-Privacy-Policy-Update-and-GDPR-FAQ > Not sure how to query and notify IRC channel members about the change, > other than to state in the channel Topic, "By logging in and using this > channel you consent to.." That is about the best thing I can think of as well. > Yes, past history and experience has shown - the discord channel will > need some sort of moderator with the power to ban, mute, kick, etc. > problematic users or bots. As I mentioned above, I am willing to maintain and moderate the Discord as necessary, at least for the foreseeable future. Of course, if the CF project leaders would like to have different or additional moderators, or have control of the Discord server itself turned over to them, that is certainly their prerogative. --DraugTheWhopper ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 5:16 PM Rick Tanner wrote: > I appear to be overlooking something.. Where is the "ownership" of > Crossfire shown or listed? I was operating under the assumption that it was a "benevolent dictatorship", consisting primarily of the original author (who I understand to be mwedel). However, perhaps you are insinuating that it is more decentralized, and noone "owns" it at all. For a game like Crossfire, it only makes sense to me that *someone* should be the one making ultimate decisions about the trajectory of the project, as there is something to be said for having a more or less strict vision for what the game *should* look like. After all, you need to draw the line somewhere on how to determine what gets accepted, and what should instead be forked into a separate project. --DraugTheWhopper ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 5:24 PM Rick Tanner wrote: > I am not sure how the messages from IRC appeared in the discord > channel/server. I was not logged in there at the time. They appeared in a similar fashion, e.g., with the bot sending a message, but prefixing it with the original IRC nick. An unfortunate side effect is that things like colored IRC nicks are no longer as universal, *but* that may be something that could be improved. If anyone is very new to Discord, and would like to simply poke their head in and look around, they are welcome to use this link: https://discord.gg/CCQqbqu. You can simply follow that link in a browser, and it will toss you in the server with a nick of your choice, without requiring an account or anything. It is then up to you if you want to actually finalize the account by adding an email/password/etc. Of course, other things like mobile or desktop apps are optional, you can use the web interface all you like. --DraugTheWhopper ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 1/30/19 2:10 PM, DraugTheWhopper wrote: > > > * Which bridge services should be acceptable > * Chat history retention time > * Either querying or notifying the "active people" on IRC to ensure they > consent > * Moderation and regulating access to the Discord (will there be a > need to appoint moderators, for anti-spam or other reasons?) What are the options or choices for the bridge services that you mention? As for retention time - does the EU Data Retention Directive apply here? "According to the directive, member states had to store citizens' telecommunications data for a minimum of 6 months and at most 24 months." What about other guidelines or recommendations? Not sure how to query and notify IRC channel members about the change, other than to state in the channel Topic, "By logging in and using this channel you consent to.." Yes, past history and experience has shown - the discord channel will need some sort of moderator with the power to ban, mute, kick, etc. problematic users or bots. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 1/31/19 11:47 PM, Mark Wedel wrote: > > I should probably transfer ownership of crossfire to someone else - I > haven't had much time to work on it lately, and seems unlikely that I'll > find time anytime soon. But that wasn't really the question here. I appear to be overlooking something.. Where is the "ownership" of Crossfire shown or listed? At SourceForge, I see four people listed. Brought to you by: mwedel, partmedia, rjtanner, ryo_saeba ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 1/31/19 11:47 PM, Mark Wedel wrote: > > - Set up a gateway. As noted, this could have issues related to > freenode policy. One thought there is to change the topic to clear > state that there is a gateway being used. I'm not actually sure how > messages would get attributed when moved between the 2 chats - I'd > imagine there may be a forwarding agent string involved. When the discord-IRC bridge was in place, messages from the discord server/channel would appear in IRC like this: Jan 29 19:19:33unfortunately, there is still the matter of making the bridge run as a service... I am not sure how the messages from IRC appeared in the discord channel/server. I was not logged in there at the time. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Looking like this discussion has taken a direction unrelated to Crossfire and using Discord in conjunction with the existing FreeNode IRC channel. Please move the corporate data mining, privacy, historical discussion off the mailing list. Thank you. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJcXfiXAAoJEPDixCQ/Y50wY4YQAJjF/dWIEyme11RxCnd3Oyr+ Tdw8uM8LPaaaKfDpA6z0gJNuQZplvL49/03BJaNFAPeOB2eV1b1tuJGYE5MUG14x YElzurZ9877FnJxwcY2q+M6DdulCpN+gE1aOeXSxtXni66bDYvHx9pW+jSK3t7eu EzX/uyax4WlfWQjwk1PS2DwSbEG6XQ/RagwZdntwW3H6SyicnEN7tinmnH3B8Peo 2IY4sLhU8lrJ3CHiU7iBZkqaDJkVlDyjP1jcHMCdJULR4WBoOrIYTYFA4JDiKk2x UM51p9TXuX+mrk7rWZF4jKUbW7C3PszfYEcAerK3Ta9IpP2xiN9cw4kkQDhDeZZP QsmAfwMAebqfYzR37dGxtYy8b3fEj1Fw7XUzeZSyANu5fJyz0EnRWwJhyarr+h1S 1n8Hfn17IIe8hTbF+9LcLPLdSkBk+vdped4/JemLonmzzZmC5rk9ex0vEZV04srF HCJi6gWvbihicaFWmgO0EPEZbk0ptZDSVvi3ReooFMsb+Lu4pCSNRQ6ghjVfAvb3 28oNvhFvfo/zUbiy+jvI7IVrobcR46ycJg3MEOT9JcN8PGF+RCHFgcjTfHVOWgb7 OuG4gVWc95Bw1KNUnNVs7xq9hBjUUhWkpALjffbOTLnZInDiyAeU83Xo0zOYu+Zd tFz8hOdWhNiXAWK+E87L =g15Z -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Fri, Feb 08, 2019 at 08:23:49PM +, bill billy wrote: > You can't be serious. > > So just to recap: You object to Discord because it is in cahoots with IBM to > sell data to the Nazis in preparation of some imminent fourth reich? > > Can we just have the bridge set up and move on from this ridiculousness. > > PS. > Nobody is tracking you, 1984 really got in your head. No, the systematic murder and genocide of my family mutple times over mutiple generations is what got into my head... that and the basic prinicples of Freedom such as was the concern of Hamilton, Jeferson and Madison.. Stick to something you know, because in this subject you have no knowledge nor do you understand history nor the current state of affairs, Nor are you cognisant of the consequences.. nor are you aware of the dangers involved. Your clueless and it would be alright except that your ignorance is a result of a generation brought up on facebook and it represents an genuine danger to the public at large and Jews like me in particular. You have no idea what AI is being unleashed on the world and you have never yet lived in a world that was free of this kind of police state so you think it is normal. Go away and stay far away from my family. Your a danger. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna968711 > On Friday, February 8, 2019, 2:19:54 PM EST, Ruben Safir > wrote: > > On 2/8/19 11:54 AM, greenscene8 wrote: > > I agree... Discord helps keep gaming communities together. Not worth > > arguing about. It's an excellent forum to discuss program ideas, the i > > tended purpose. If youre worried about the spy state- keep the bomb > > discussions to minimal and we should all be safe from the swat teams and > > holocusts. > > > Until they come after you Dovid! Tracking is no game. > > https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/facebook-dilemma/ > > When the Nazi's come for us the next time, and there is always a next > time, they won't need yellow Magin Dovids and numbers tatooed on the > arm... and IBM will be able to sell a lot more than adding machines to > help Helbollah track you down and gas you. > > Of course, part of the ignorance of youth is the believe that Government > is good, and companies can be trusted, and justice and the law are same > thing, and innocent people never get in trouble with the law. > > -- > So many immigrant groups have swept through our town > that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological > proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 > http://www.mrbrklyn.com > DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 > > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software > http://www.brooklyn-living.com > > Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, > but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
You can't be serious. So just to recap: You object to Discord because it is in cahoots with IBM to sell data to the Nazis in preparation of some imminent fourth reich? Can we just have the bridge set up and move on from this ridiculousness. PS. Nobody is tracking you, 1984 really got in your head. On Friday, February 8, 2019, 2:19:54 PM EST, Ruben Safir wrote: On 2/8/19 11:54 AM, greenscene8 wrote: > I agree... Discord helps keep gaming communities together. Not worth arguing > about. It's an excellent forum to discuss program ideas, the i tended > purpose. If youre worried about the spy state- keep the bomb discussions to > minimal and we should all be safe from the swat teams and holocusts. Until they come after you Dovid! Tracking is no game. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/facebook-dilemma/ When the Nazi's come for us the next time, and there is always a next time, they won't need yellow Magin Dovids and numbers tatooed on the arm... and IBM will be able to sell a lot more than adding machines to help Helbollah track you down and gas you. Of course, part of the ignorance of youth is the believe that Government is good, and companies can be trusted, and justice and the law are same thing, and innocent people never get in trouble with the law. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 2/8/19 11:54 AM, greenscene8 wrote: > I agree... Discord helps keep gaming communities together. Not worth arguing > about. It's an excellent forum to discuss program ideas, the i tended > purpose. If youre worried about the spy state- keep the bomb discussions to > minimal and we should all be safe from the swat teams and holocusts. :) and Hello and have a good Shabbat! -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 2/8/19 11:54 AM, greenscene8 wrote: > I agree... Discord helps keep gaming communities together. Not worth arguing > about. It's an excellent forum to discuss program ideas, the i tended > purpose. If youre worried about the spy state- keep the bomb discussions to > minimal and we should all be safe from the swat teams and holocusts. https://www.pbs.org/video/the-facebook-dilemma-part-one-s43cuc/ BTW are you playing crossfire? We should get together in the arena. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 2/8/19 11:54 AM, greenscene8 wrote: > I agree... Discord helps keep gaming communities together. Not worth arguing > about. It's an excellent forum to discuss program ideas, the i tended > purpose. If youre worried about the spy state- keep the bomb discussions to > minimal and we should all be safe from the swat teams and holocusts. Until they come after you Dovid! Tracking is no game. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/facebook-dilemma/ When the Nazi's come for us the next time, and there is always a next time, they won't need yellow Magin Dovids and numbers tatooed on the arm... and IBM will be able to sell a lot more than adding machines to help Helbollah track you down and gas you. Of course, part of the ignorance of youth is the believe that Government is good, and companies can be trusted, and justice and the law are same thing, and innocent people never get in trouble with the law. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
I agree... Discord helps keep gaming communities together. Not worth arguing about. It's an excellent forum to discuss program ideas, the i tended purpose. If youre worried about the spy state- keep the bomb discussions to minimal and we should all be safe from the swat teams and holocusts. Original message From: Ruben Safir Date: 2/7/19 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Crossfire Discussion Mailing List Subject: Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 03:43:50PM +, bill billy wrote:> > A. Discord does not data-mine. That's not how VC-funded startups work. At the moment Discord isn't concerned about finding a main source of revenue. They're funded by several investors, which wouldn't be funding Discord if it sold user data. Yes, it does share aggregate user data with partners such as Twitch, but this is for purely marketing purposes. Discord isn't Facebook. > don't believe it. Its uneeded garbage lookig for suckers> B. If you are concerned with how much info Discord has on you, then just go to your Discord settings > privacy and safety > request data and see for yourself.> > Nobody it suggesting a switch FROM irc, just a bridge to make it more accessible to new people who are more familiar with modern software. > Your suggestion to abolish the Forums however is frankly ridiculous and indicates to me that you want the community to be even more exclusive.> Crossfire will not experience meaningful growth if nothing is ever allowed to change. If the goal is to keep this project and community just as it's been for coming up on 20 years, mission accomplished. What do you think will happen if Discord is bridged to irc? Really what could possibly happen to you that wouldn't have already happened to hundreds of millions world-wide and been widely reported?> "It is too bad that this current generation has been dragged around on their cellphones" You sound as if you're parodying anti-tech conspiracy theorists.This game needs:1) Community Involvement2) Community Fundingand 3) Initiatives to Grow said Community in the futureDoes threatening to leave the community over attempts at becoming more accessibly help anybody or anything?> > On Thursday, February 7, 2019, 10:31:40 AM EST, Ruben Safir wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 03, 2019 at 04:47:43PM -0500, Nathaniel Kipps wrote:> > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:21 PM Ruben Safir wrote:> > > > > I see great reasons to end web based forums..> > > >> > > > Can you give some of these reasons? I'd love to hear them.> > >> > > They depend on a browser, they spy on you, they are not quick, they> > > don't integrate with my email client, I can't run them from a shell,> > > they are a security nightmare, they don't allow for smother> > > communications etc etc etc.> > > > Let's not be too hasty here. After all, those are perfectly valid> > reasons, but they are only reasons why *you* choose not to use those> > communication methods, and not reasons to get rid of them entirely. > > > Actually, those are all reasons to get rid of them entirely. It is too> bad that this current generation has been dragged around on their> cellphones and data steeling aps that aren't really more than slashdot> analogs, but I don't suffer any such difficency of vission.> > Slack and Discord are crap spying and data collection tools that is> inadequate compared to my email client for spinning discussion.> > They are insecure and tools for spying and break privacy.> > Other than that, they provide zero benifits over email lists and IRC.> > The problem here is in perception and being used to OSes where> using more than one desktop at a time, or even one window at a time, is> a major complication. I suffer from none of that, and those things I> listed are factual problems and not an opinion.> > It would be fun to have an IRC channel inside of crossfire's clients,> but it is wholing uneeded if the client plays wells with others on the> desktop, which newer versions are finding more difficult to do...> > I am perfectly capable of playing with an IRC client sitting right on> the desktop.> > > o> > follow the same argument, I could say that we should end the IRC> > because "it depends on specialized client software, it doesn't let me> > smoothly integrate images and video into the chat, I can't run it from> > my phone, and it makes it very hard for non-savvy people to> > communicate." Remember, the systems that the CF community uses to> > communicate are there for the benefit of all community members, and it> > is up to the entire community to make reasonable accommodations so>
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
If you're going to call people who don't subscribe to your particular brand of paranoia 'idiots' you should probably be up for a debate (and know how to spell incite). Time after time you suggest new people coming in learn Linux or use IRC all the while it would be far more intelligent to adapt to new players coming in. Are you actively trying to keep Crossfire to the handful of people lucky enough to know about it? And what was with that 'turk' comment anyhow? lol On Thursday, February 7, 2019, 4:04:15 PM EST, Ruben Safir wrote: On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 08:34:34PM +, bill billy wrote: > I suggest you start citing your sources or stop being a stick in the mud. This is not a debate. > On Thursday, February 7, 2019, 3:28:50 PM EST, Ruben Safir > wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 07:15:42PM +, bill billy wrote: > > > > > > https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/discord/investors/investors_list#section-investors > > > > Researching these topics takes only slightly more effort than it takes to > > imagine some conspiracy scenario. > > > There is no consiracy there but there are wreckless young turks without > an insite to how technology works or how platforms are exploited. > > after repeated lawsuiteis and event after event, exploit after exploit, > manipulation after manipulation, exposee after exposee, I get sick of > discussing it with idiots who simply don't understand the risks of the > survaleince state and couldn't care less about their civil rights, let > alone can understand usability issues or the science of human interface > design. > > > Please don't pretend to care about accomidations from people who spend > their lives thumbing on cellphone tablets so small that noone older than > forth car see them or use them... > > The ignorance is so thick... > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, February 3, 2019, 4:48:09 PM EST, Nathaniel Kipps > > wrote: > > > > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:21 PM Ruben Safir wrote: > > > > > I see great reasons to end web based forums.. > > > > > > > > Can you give some of these reasons? I'd love to hear them. > > > > > > They depend on a browser, they spy on you, they are not quick, they > > > don't integrate with my email client, I can't run them from a shell, > > > they are a security nightmare, they don't allow for smother > > > communications etc etc etc. > > > > Let's not be too hasty here. After all, those are perfectly valid > > reasons, but they are only reasons why *you* choose not to use those > > communication methods, and not reasons to get rid of them entirely. To > > follow the same argument, I could say that we should end the IRC > > because "it depends on specialized client software, it doesn't let me > > smoothly integrate images and video into the chat, I can't run it from > > my phone, and it makes it very hard for non-savvy people to > > communicate." Remember, the systems that the CF community uses to > > communicate are there for the benefit of all community members, and it > > is up to the entire community to make reasonable accommodations so > > that we exclude as few people as possible. Just because some people do > > not wish to use a specific communication channel does not mean that > > the project should not endorse it. > > > > And so, the issue we are trying to address here is that there is a > > division between the members of the crossfire community. There are > > some that prefer and are very familiar with IRC, but have issues with > > using other methods of instant chat, and there are those that prefer > > more modern systems like Slack and Discord, but have issues with older > > chat systems like IRC. As it currently is, it does not entirely make > > sense to use IRC only, or to use Slack/Discord only, as we will be > > alienating people either way. That is why I am proposing that we have > > a way of bridging the two, so as to best serve both types of community > > users, and ensure the gap between "IRC people" and "non-IRC people" > > does not continue to widen. Of course, a bridge like this will almost > > certainly require some kind of sacrifice on both sides of the fence, > > the true question is whether the expanded accessibility is worth the > > additional sacrifice. > > > > More specifically, the two primary areas that would "sacrifice" are A) > > the IRC chat messages would be sent to a third party, and could be > > read by and responded to by members that are not on IRC, and B) the > > message history in the "other" chat system would most likely be > > limited, so users of that system would not be able to easily > > scrollback to their heart's content, as they are accustomed to. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > (P.S. Ruben, perhaps I should clarify that I'm not trying to attack > > your perspective, only point out that it's a personal choice, and I > > don't think it should be a guiding principle for the project) > > > > (That being said, I do hope that everyone on
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 08:34:34PM +, bill billy wrote: > I suggest you start citing your sources or stop being a stick in the mud. This is not a debate. > On Thursday, February 7, 2019, 3:28:50 PM EST, Ruben Safir > wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 07:15:42PM +, bill billy wrote: > > > > > > https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/discord/investors/investors_list#section-investors > > > > Researching these topics takes only slightly more effort than it takes to > > imagine some conspiracy scenario. > > > There is no consiracy there but there are wreckless young turks without > an insite to how technology works or how platforms are exploited. > > after repeated lawsuiteis and event after event, exploit after exploit, > manipulation after manipulation, exposee after exposee, I get sick of > discussing it with idiots who simply don't understand the risks of the > survaleince state and couldn't care less about their civil rights, let > alone can understand usability issues or the science of human interface > design. > > > Please don't pretend to care about accomidations from people who spend > their lives thumbing on cellphone tablets so small that noone older than > forth car see them or use them... > > The ignorance is so thick... > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, February 3, 2019, 4:48:09 PM EST, Nathaniel Kipps > > wrote: > > > > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:21 PM Ruben Safir wrote: > > > > > I see great reasons to end web based forums.. > > > > > > > > Can you give some of these reasons? I'd love to hear them. > > > > > > They depend on a browser, they spy on you, they are not quick, they > > > don't integrate with my email client, I can't run them from a shell, > > > they are a security nightmare, they don't allow for smother > > > communications etc etc etc. > > > > Let's not be too hasty here. After all, those are perfectly valid > > reasons, but they are only reasons why *you* choose not to use those > > communication methods, and not reasons to get rid of them entirely. To > > follow the same argument, I could say that we should end the IRC > > because "it depends on specialized client software, it doesn't let me > > smoothly integrate images and video into the chat, I can't run it from > > my phone, and it makes it very hard for non-savvy people to > > communicate." Remember, the systems that the CF community uses to > > communicate are there for the benefit of all community members, and it > > is up to the entire community to make reasonable accommodations so > > that we exclude as few people as possible. Just because some people do > > not wish to use a specific communication channel does not mean that > > the project should not endorse it. > > > > And so, the issue we are trying to address here is that there is a > > division between the members of the crossfire community. There are > > some that prefer and are very familiar with IRC, but have issues with > > using other methods of instant chat, and there are those that prefer > > more modern systems like Slack and Discord, but have issues with older > > chat systems like IRC. As it currently is, it does not entirely make > > sense to use IRC only, or to use Slack/Discord only, as we will be > > alienating people either way. That is why I am proposing that we have > > a way of bridging the two, so as to best serve both types of community > > users, and ensure the gap between "IRC people" and "non-IRC people" > > does not continue to widen. Of course, a bridge like this will almost > > certainly require some kind of sacrifice on both sides of the fence, > > the true question is whether the expanded accessibility is worth the > > additional sacrifice. > > > > More specifically, the two primary areas that would "sacrifice" are A) > > the IRC chat messages would be sent to a third party, and could be > > read by and responded to by members that are not on IRC, and B) the > > message history in the "other" chat system would most likely be > > limited, so users of that system would not be able to easily > > scrollback to their heart's content, as they are accustomed to. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > (P.S. Ruben, perhaps I should clarify that I'm not trying to attack > > your perspective, only point out that it's a personal choice, and I > > don't think it should be a guiding principle for the project) > > > > (That being said, I do hope that everyone on this list continues to > > respond with their own comments and opinions.) > > > > --DraugTheWhopper > > ___ > > crossfire mailing list > > crossfire@metalforge.org > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > > > ___ > > crossfire mailing list > > crossfire@metalforge.org > > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > > -- > So many immigrant groups have swept through our town > that Brooklyn, like Atlantis,
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
I suggest you start citing your sources or stop being a stick in the mud. On Thursday, February 7, 2019, 3:28:50 PM EST, Ruben Safir wrote: On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 07:15:42PM +, bill billy wrote: > > > https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/discord/investors/investors_list#section-investors > > Researching these topics takes only slightly more effort than it takes to > imagine some conspiracy scenario. There is no consiracy there but there are wreckless young turks without an insite to how technology works or how platforms are exploited. after repeated lawsuiteis and event after event, exploit after exploit, manipulation after manipulation, exposee after exposee, I get sick of discussing it with idiots who simply don't understand the risks of the survaleince state and couldn't care less about their civil rights, let alone can understand usability issues or the science of human interface design. Please don't pretend to care about accomidations from people who spend their lives thumbing on cellphone tablets so small that noone older than forth car see them or use them... The ignorance is so thick... > > > > On Sunday, February 3, 2019, 4:48:09 PM EST, Nathaniel Kipps > wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:21 PM Ruben Safir wrote: > > > > I see great reasons to end web based forums.. > > > > > > Can you give some of these reasons? I'd love to hear them. > > > > They depend on a browser, they spy on you, they are not quick, they > > don't integrate with my email client, I can't run them from a shell, > > they are a security nightmare, they don't allow for smother > > communications etc etc etc. > > Let's not be too hasty here. After all, those are perfectly valid > reasons, but they are only reasons why *you* choose not to use those > communication methods, and not reasons to get rid of them entirely. To > follow the same argument, I could say that we should end the IRC > because "it depends on specialized client software, it doesn't let me > smoothly integrate images and video into the chat, I can't run it from > my phone, and it makes it very hard for non-savvy people to > communicate." Remember, the systems that the CF community uses to > communicate are there for the benefit of all community members, and it > is up to the entire community to make reasonable accommodations so > that we exclude as few people as possible. Just because some people do > not wish to use a specific communication channel does not mean that > the project should not endorse it. > > And so, the issue we are trying to address here is that there is a > division between the members of the crossfire community. There are > some that prefer and are very familiar with IRC, but have issues with > using other methods of instant chat, and there are those that prefer > more modern systems like Slack and Discord, but have issues with older > chat systems like IRC. As it currently is, it does not entirely make > sense to use IRC only, or to use Slack/Discord only, as we will be > alienating people either way. That is why I am proposing that we have > a way of bridging the two, so as to best serve both types of community > users, and ensure the gap between "IRC people" and "non-IRC people" > does not continue to widen. Of course, a bridge like this will almost > certainly require some kind of sacrifice on both sides of the fence, > the true question is whether the expanded accessibility is worth the > additional sacrifice. > > More specifically, the two primary areas that would "sacrifice" are A) > the IRC chat messages would be sent to a third party, and could be > read by and responded to by members that are not on IRC, and B) the > message history in the "other" chat system would most likely be > limited, so users of that system would not be able to easily > scrollback to their heart's content, as they are accustomed to. > > Thoughts? > > (P.S. Ruben, perhaps I should clarify that I'm not trying to attack > your perspective, only point out that it's a personal choice, and I > don't think it should be a guiding principle for the project) > > (That being said, I do hope that everyone on this list continues to > respond with their own comments and opinions.) > > --DraugTheWhopper > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com -
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 07:15:42PM +, bill billy wrote: > > > https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/discord/investors/investors_list#section-investors > > Researching these topics takes only slightly more effort than it takes to > imagine some conspiracy scenario. There is no consiracy there but there are wreckless young turks without an insite to how technology works or how platforms are exploited. after repeated lawsuiteis and event after event, exploit after exploit, manipulation after manipulation, exposee after exposee, I get sick of discussing it with idiots who simply don't understand the risks of the survaleince state and couldn't care less about their civil rights, let alone can understand usability issues or the science of human interface design. Please don't pretend to care about accomidations from people who spend their lives thumbing on cellphone tablets so small that noone older than forth car see them or use them... The ignorance is so thick... > > > > On Sunday, February 3, 2019, 4:48:09 PM EST, Nathaniel Kipps > wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:21 PM Ruben Safir wrote: > > > > I see great reasons to end web based forums.. > > > > > > Can you give some of these reasons? I'd love to hear them. > > > > They depend on a browser, they spy on you, they are not quick, they > > don't integrate with my email client, I can't run them from a shell, > > they are a security nightmare, they don't allow for smother > > communications etc etc etc. > > Let's not be too hasty here. After all, those are perfectly valid > reasons, but they are only reasons why *you* choose not to use those > communication methods, and not reasons to get rid of them entirely. To > follow the same argument, I could say that we should end the IRC > because "it depends on specialized client software, it doesn't let me > smoothly integrate images and video into the chat, I can't run it from > my phone, and it makes it very hard for non-savvy people to > communicate." Remember, the systems that the CF community uses to > communicate are there for the benefit of all community members, and it > is up to the entire community to make reasonable accommodations so > that we exclude as few people as possible. Just because some people do > not wish to use a specific communication channel does not mean that > the project should not endorse it. > > And so, the issue we are trying to address here is that there is a > division between the members of the crossfire community. There are > some that prefer and are very familiar with IRC, but have issues with > using other methods of instant chat, and there are those that prefer > more modern systems like Slack and Discord, but have issues with older > chat systems like IRC. As it currently is, it does not entirely make > sense to use IRC only, or to use Slack/Discord only, as we will be > alienating people either way. That is why I am proposing that we have > a way of bridging the two, so as to best serve both types of community > users, and ensure the gap between "IRC people" and "non-IRC people" > does not continue to widen. Of course, a bridge like this will almost > certainly require some kind of sacrifice on both sides of the fence, > the true question is whether the expanded accessibility is worth the > additional sacrifice. > > More specifically, the two primary areas that would "sacrifice" are A) > the IRC chat messages would be sent to a third party, and could be > read by and responded to by members that are not on IRC, and B) the > message history in the "other" chat system would most likely be > limited, so users of that system would not be able to easily > scrollback to their heart's content, as they are accustomed to. > > Thoughts? > > (P.S. Ruben, perhaps I should clarify that I'm not trying to attack > your perspective, only point out that it's a personal choice, and I > don't think it should be a guiding principle for the project) > > (That being said, I do hope that everyone on this list continues to > respond with their own comments and opinions.) > > --DraugTheWhopper > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/discord/investors/investors_list#section-investors Researching these topics takes only slightly more effort than it takes to imagine some conspiracy scenario. On Sunday, February 3, 2019, 4:48:09 PM EST, Nathaniel Kipps wrote: On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:21 PM Ruben Safir wrote: > > > I see great reasons to end web based forums.. > > > > Can you give some of these reasons? I'd love to hear them. > > They depend on a browser, they spy on you, they are not quick, they > don't integrate with my email client, I can't run them from a shell, > they are a security nightmare, they don't allow for smother > communications etc etc etc. Let's not be too hasty here. After all, those are perfectly valid reasons, but they are only reasons why *you* choose not to use those communication methods, and not reasons to get rid of them entirely. To follow the same argument, I could say that we should end the IRC because "it depends on specialized client software, it doesn't let me smoothly integrate images and video into the chat, I can't run it from my phone, and it makes it very hard for non-savvy people to communicate." Remember, the systems that the CF community uses to communicate are there for the benefit of all community members, and it is up to the entire community to make reasonable accommodations so that we exclude as few people as possible. Just because some people do not wish to use a specific communication channel does not mean that the project should not endorse it. And so, the issue we are trying to address here is that there is a division between the members of the crossfire community. There are some that prefer and are very familiar with IRC, but have issues with using other methods of instant chat, and there are those that prefer more modern systems like Slack and Discord, but have issues with older chat systems like IRC. As it currently is, it does not entirely make sense to use IRC only, or to use Slack/Discord only, as we will be alienating people either way. That is why I am proposing that we have a way of bridging the two, so as to best serve both types of community users, and ensure the gap between "IRC people" and "non-IRC people" does not continue to widen. Of course, a bridge like this will almost certainly require some kind of sacrifice on both sides of the fence, the true question is whether the expanded accessibility is worth the additional sacrifice. More specifically, the two primary areas that would "sacrifice" are A) the IRC chat messages would be sent to a third party, and could be read by and responded to by members that are not on IRC, and B) the message history in the "other" chat system would most likely be limited, so users of that system would not be able to easily scrollback to their heart's content, as they are accustomed to. Thoughts? (P.S. Ruben, perhaps I should clarify that I'm not trying to attack your perspective, only point out that it's a personal choice, and I don't think it should be a guiding principle for the project) (That being said, I do hope that everyone on this list continues to respond with their own comments and opinions.) --DraugTheWhopper ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 03:43:50PM +, bill billy wrote: > > A. Discord does not data-mine. That's not how VC-funded startups work. At the > moment Discord isn't concerned about finding a main source of revenue. > They're funded by several investors, which wouldn't be funding Discord if it > sold user data. Yes, it does share aggregate user data with partners such as > Twitch, but this is for purely marketing purposes. Discord isn't Facebook. > don't believe it. Its uneeded garbage lookig for suckers > B. If you are concerned with how much info Discord has on you, then just > go to your Discord settings > privacy and safety > request data and see for > yourself. > > Nobody it suggesting a switch FROM irc, just a bridge to make it more > accessible to new people who are more familiar with modern software. > Your suggestion to abolish the Forums however is frankly ridiculous and > indicates to me that you want the community to be even more exclusive. > Crossfire will not experience meaningful growth if nothing is ever allowed to > change. If the goal is to keep this project and community just as it's been > for coming up on 20 years, mission accomplished. What do you think will > happen if Discord is bridged to irc? Really what could possibly happen to you > that wouldn't have already happened to hundreds of millions world-wide and > been widely reported? > "It is too bad that this current generation has been dragged around on their > cellphones" You sound as if you're parodying anti-tech conspiracy > theorists.This game needs:1) Community Involvement2) Community Fundingand 3) > Initiatives to Grow said Community in the futureDoes threatening to leave the > community over attempts at becoming more accessibly help anybody or anything? > > On Thursday, February 7, 2019, 10:31:40 AM EST, Ruben Safir > wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 03, 2019 at 04:47:43PM -0500, Nathaniel Kipps wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:21 PM Ruben Safir wrote: > > > > > I see great reasons to end web based forums.. > > > > > > > > Can you give some of these reasons? I'd love to hear them. > > > > > > They depend on a browser, they spy on you, they are not quick, they > > > don't integrate with my email client, I can't run them from a shell, > > > they are a security nightmare, they don't allow for smother > > > communications etc etc etc. > > > > Let's not be too hasty here. After all, those are perfectly valid > > reasons, but they are only reasons why *you* choose not to use those > > communication methods, and not reasons to get rid of them entirely. > > > Actually, those are all reasons to get rid of them entirely. It is too > bad that this current generation has been dragged around on their > cellphones and data steeling aps that aren't really more than slashdot > analogs, but I don't suffer any such difficency of vission. > > Slack and Discord are crap spying and data collection tools that is > inadequate compared to my email client for spinning discussion. > > They are insecure and tools for spying and break privacy. > > Other than that, they provide zero benifits over email lists and IRC. > > The problem here is in perception and being used to OSes where > using more than one desktop at a time, or even one window at a time, is > a major complication. I suffer from none of that, and those things I > listed are factual problems and not an opinion. > > It would be fun to have an IRC channel inside of crossfire's clients, > but it is wholing uneeded if the client plays wells with others on the > desktop, which newer versions are finding more difficult to do... > > I am perfectly capable of playing with an IRC client sitting right on > the desktop. > > > o > > follow the same argument, I could say that we should end the IRC > > because "it depends on specialized client software, it doesn't let me > > smoothly integrate images and video into the chat, I can't run it from > > my phone, and it makes it very hard for non-savvy people to > > communicate." Remember, the systems that the CF community uses to > > communicate are there for the benefit of all community members, and it > > is up to the entire community to make reasonable accommodations so > > that we exclude as few people as possible. Just because some people do > > not wish to use a specific communication channel does not mean that > > the project should not endorse it. > > > > And so, the issue we are trying to address here is that there is a > > division between the members of the crossfire community. There are > > some that prefer and are very familiar with IRC, but have issues with > > using other methods of instant chat, and there are those that prefer > > more modern systems like Slack and Discord, but have issues with older > > chat systems like IRC. As it currently is, it does not entirely make > > sense to use IRC only, or to use Slack/Discord only, as we will be > > alienating people either way. That is
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
A. Discord does not data-mine. That's not how VC-funded startups work. At the moment Discord isn't concerned about finding a main source of revenue. They're funded by several investors, which wouldn't be funding Discord if it sold user data. Yes, it does share aggregate user data with partners such as Twitch, but this is for purely marketing purposes. Discord isn't Facebook. B. If you are concerned with how much info Discord has on you, then just go to your Discord settings > privacy and safety > request data and see for yourself. Nobody it suggesting a switch FROM irc, just a bridge to make it more accessible to new people who are more familiar with modern software. Your suggestion to abolish the Forums however is frankly ridiculous and indicates to me that you want the community to be even more exclusive. Crossfire will not experience meaningful growth if nothing is ever allowed to change. If the goal is to keep this project and community just as it's been for coming up on 20 years, mission accomplished. What do you think will happen if Discord is bridged to irc? Really what could possibly happen to you that wouldn't have already happened to hundreds of millions world-wide and been widely reported? "It is too bad that this current generation has been dragged around on their cellphones" You sound as if you're parodying anti-tech conspiracy theorists.This game needs:1) Community Involvement2) Community Fundingand 3) Initiatives to Grow said Community in the futureDoes threatening to leave the community over attempts at becoming more accessibly help anybody or anything? On Thursday, February 7, 2019, 10:31:40 AM EST, Ruben Safir wrote: On Sun, Feb 03, 2019 at 04:47:43PM -0500, Nathaniel Kipps wrote: > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:21 PM Ruben Safir wrote: > > > > I see great reasons to end web based forums.. > > > > > > Can you give some of these reasons? I'd love to hear them. > > > > They depend on a browser, they spy on you, they are not quick, they > > don't integrate with my email client, I can't run them from a shell, > > they are a security nightmare, they don't allow for smother > > communications etc etc etc. > > Let's not be too hasty here. After all, those are perfectly valid > reasons, but they are only reasons why *you* choose not to use those > communication methods, and not reasons to get rid of them entirely. Actually, those are all reasons to get rid of them entirely. It is too bad that this current generation has been dragged around on their cellphones and data steeling aps that aren't really more than slashdot analogs, but I don't suffer any such difficency of vission. Slack and Discord are crap spying and data collection tools that is inadequate compared to my email client for spinning discussion. They are insecure and tools for spying and break privacy. Other than that, they provide zero benifits over email lists and IRC. The problem here is in perception and being used to OSes where using more than one desktop at a time, or even one window at a time, is a major complication. I suffer from none of that, and those things I listed are factual problems and not an opinion. It would be fun to have an IRC channel inside of crossfire's clients, but it is wholing uneeded if the client plays wells with others on the desktop, which newer versions are finding more difficult to do... I am perfectly capable of playing with an IRC client sitting right on the desktop. o > follow the same argument, I could say that we should end the IRC > because "it depends on specialized client software, it doesn't let me > smoothly integrate images and video into the chat, I can't run it from > my phone, and it makes it very hard for non-savvy people to > communicate." Remember, the systems that the CF community uses to > communicate are there for the benefit of all community members, and it > is up to the entire community to make reasonable accommodations so > that we exclude as few people as possible. Just because some people do > not wish to use a specific communication channel does not mean that > the project should not endorse it. > > And so, the issue we are trying to address here is that there is a > division between the members of the crossfire community. There are > some that prefer and are very familiar with IRC, but have issues with > using other methods of instant chat, and there are those that prefer > more modern systems like Slack and Discord, but have issues with older > chat systems like IRC. As it currently is, it does not entirely make > sense to use IRC only, or to use Slack/Discord only, as we will be > alienating people either way. That is why I am proposing that we have > a way of bridging the two, so as to best serve both types of community > users, and ensure the gap between "IRC people" and "non-IRC people" > does not continue to widen. Of course, a bridge like this will almost > certainly require some kind of sacrifice on both sides
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Sun, Feb 03, 2019 at 04:47:43PM -0500, Nathaniel Kipps wrote: > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:21 PM Ruben Safir wrote: > > > > I see great reasons to end web based forums.. > > > > > > Can you give some of these reasons? I'd love to hear them. > > > > They depend on a browser, they spy on you, they are not quick, they > > don't integrate with my email client, I can't run them from a shell, > > they are a security nightmare, they don't allow for smother > > communications etc etc etc. > > Let's not be too hasty here. After all, those are perfectly valid > reasons, but they are only reasons why *you* choose not to use those > communication methods, and not reasons to get rid of them entirely. Actually, those are all reasons to get rid of them entirely. It is too bad that this current generation has been dragged around on their cellphones and data steeling aps that aren't really more than slashdot analogs, but I don't suffer any such difficency of vission. Slack and Discord are crap spying and data collection tools that is inadequate compared to my email client for spinning discussion. They are insecure and tools for spying and break privacy. Other than that, they provide zero benifits over email lists and IRC. The problem here is in perception and being used to OSes where using more than one desktop at a time, or even one window at a time, is a major complication. I suffer from none of that, and those things I listed are factual problems and not an opinion. It would be fun to have an IRC channel inside of crossfire's clients, but it is wholing uneeded if the client plays wells with others on the desktop, which newer versions are finding more difficult to do... I am perfectly capable of playing with an IRC client sitting right on the desktop. o > follow the same argument, I could say that we should end the IRC > because "it depends on specialized client software, it doesn't let me > smoothly integrate images and video into the chat, I can't run it from > my phone, and it makes it very hard for non-savvy people to > communicate." Remember, the systems that the CF community uses to > communicate are there for the benefit of all community members, and it > is up to the entire community to make reasonable accommodations so > that we exclude as few people as possible. Just because some people do > not wish to use a specific communication channel does not mean that > the project should not endorse it. > > And so, the issue we are trying to address here is that there is a > division between the members of the crossfire community. There are > some that prefer and are very familiar with IRC, but have issues with > using other methods of instant chat, and there are those that prefer > more modern systems like Slack and Discord, but have issues with older > chat systems like IRC. As it currently is, it does not entirely make > sense to use IRC only, or to use Slack/Discord only, as we will be > alienating people either way. That is why I am proposing that we have > a way of bridging the two, so as to best serve both types of community > users, and ensure the gap between "IRC people" and "non-IRC people" > does not continue to widen. Of course, a bridge like this will almost > certainly require some kind of sacrifice on both sides of the fence, > the true question is whether the expanded accessibility is worth the > additional sacrifice. > > More specifically, the two primary areas that would "sacrifice" are A) > the IRC chat messages would be sent to a third party, and could be > read by and responded to by members that are not on IRC, and B) the > message history in the "other" chat system would most likely be > limited, so users of that system would not be able to easily > scrollback to their heart's content, as they are accustomed to. > > Thoughts? > > (P.S. Ruben, perhaps I should clarify that I'm not trying to attack > your perspective, only point out that it's a personal choice, and I > don't think it should be a guiding principle for the project) > > (That being said, I do hope that everyone on this list continues to > respond with their own comments and opinions.) > > --DraugTheWhopper > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 ___ crossfire mailing list
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:21 PM Ruben Safir wrote: > > > I see great reasons to end web based forums.. > > > > Can you give some of these reasons? I'd love to hear them. > > They depend on a browser, they spy on you, they are not quick, they > don't integrate with my email client, I can't run them from a shell, > they are a security nightmare, they don't allow for smother > communications etc etc etc. Let's not be too hasty here. After all, those are perfectly valid reasons, but they are only reasons why *you* choose not to use those communication methods, and not reasons to get rid of them entirely. To follow the same argument, I could say that we should end the IRC because "it depends on specialized client software, it doesn't let me smoothly integrate images and video into the chat, I can't run it from my phone, and it makes it very hard for non-savvy people to communicate." Remember, the systems that the CF community uses to communicate are there for the benefit of all community members, and it is up to the entire community to make reasonable accommodations so that we exclude as few people as possible. Just because some people do not wish to use a specific communication channel does not mean that the project should not endorse it. And so, the issue we are trying to address here is that there is a division between the members of the crossfire community. There are some that prefer and are very familiar with IRC, but have issues with using other methods of instant chat, and there are those that prefer more modern systems like Slack and Discord, but have issues with older chat systems like IRC. As it currently is, it does not entirely make sense to use IRC only, or to use Slack/Discord only, as we will be alienating people either way. That is why I am proposing that we have a way of bridging the two, so as to best serve both types of community users, and ensure the gap between "IRC people" and "non-IRC people" does not continue to widen. Of course, a bridge like this will almost certainly require some kind of sacrifice on both sides of the fence, the true question is whether the expanded accessibility is worth the additional sacrifice. More specifically, the two primary areas that would "sacrifice" are A) the IRC chat messages would be sent to a third party, and could be read by and responded to by members that are not on IRC, and B) the message history in the "other" chat system would most likely be limited, so users of that system would not be able to easily scrollback to their heart's content, as they are accustomed to. Thoughts? (P.S. Ruben, perhaps I should clarify that I'm not trying to attack your perspective, only point out that it's a personal choice, and I don't think it should be a guiding principle for the project) (That being said, I do hope that everyone on this list continues to respond with their own comments and opinions.) --DraugTheWhopper ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 10:04:30PM -0500, Nathaniel Kipps wrote: > > There is zero reason to move from IRC... thank you. > > Absolutely, we are not proposing to replace the IRC in any way, just > extend it to improve the accessibility. > > > I see great reasons to end web based forums.. > > Can you give some of these reasons? I'd love to hear them. > > On a related note, I think the metalforge forums came back online > recently, or so I'm told. I think it's been mentioned in IRC, but not > here. They depend on a browser, they spy on you, they are not quick, they don't integrate with my email client, I can't run them from a shell, they are a security nightmare, they don't allow for smother communications etc etc etc. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
> There is zero reason to move from IRC... thank you. Absolutely, we are not proposing to replace the IRC in any way, just extend it to improve the accessibility. > I see great reasons to end web based forums.. Can you give some of these reasons? I'd love to hear them. On a related note, I think the metalforge forums came back online recently, or so I'm told. I think it's been mentioned in IRC, but not here. --DraugTheWhopper ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 12:17:08PM -0800, Kevin Zheng wrote: > On 1/31/19 9:47 PM, Mark Wedel wrote: > > I should probably transfer ownership of crossfire to someone > >else - I haven't had much time to work on it lately, and seems > >unlikely that I'll find time anytime soon. But that wasn't really > >the question here. > > I nominate Rick, who has been a pretty essential part of the project > for many, many years. > > > It is hard to argue about making the game (or chat channels) > >more accessible to more people. There are a few thoughts here: > > > >- Move chat to another system that is more widely used/available, > >with the understanding that it still needs to be accessible to > >linux users. So if there is a web interface, probably > >acceptable. If the only thing is a windows program, probably not. > There is zero reason to move from IRC... thank you. I see great reasons to end web based forums.. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
On 1/31/19 9:47 PM, Mark Wedel wrote: I should probably transfer ownership of crossfire to someone else - I haven't had much time to work on it lately, and seems unlikely that I'll find time anytime soon. But that wasn't really the question here. I nominate Rick, who has been a pretty essential part of the project for many, many years. It is hard to argue about making the game (or chat channels) more accessible to more people. There are a few thoughts here: - Move chat to another system that is more widely used/available, with the understanding that it still needs to be accessible to linux users. So if there is a web interface, probably acceptable. If the only thing is a windows program, probably not. I imagine many of us (myself included) who have gotten quite accustomed to IRC, and would prefer to keep it. - Set up a gateway. As noted, this could have issues related to freenode policy. One thought there is to change the topic to clear state that there is a gateway being used. I'm not actually sure how messages would get attributed when moved between the 2 chats - I'd imagine there may be a forwarding agent string involved. And handling of private messages would need to be carefully done (if one replies to the forwarding agent privately, you probably don't want to that appear to all the users on the other chat system) From my understanding, it seems like Freenode would permit bridges so long that it's clear that users are clearly and prominently notified that the bridge exists; I have participated in other channels on Freenode that very clearly state that they log chats publicly, for example. -- Kevin Zheng kevinz5...@gmail.com | kev...@berkeley.edu | PGP: 0xC22E1090 ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
I should probably transfer ownership of crossfire to someone else - I haven't had much time to work on it lately, and seems unlikely that I'll find time anytime soon. But that wasn't really the question here. It is hard to argue about making the game (or chat channels) more accessible to more people. There are a few thoughts here: - Move chat to another system that is more widely used/available, with the understanding that it still needs to be accessible to linux users. So if there is a web interface, probably acceptable. If the only thing is a windows program, probably not. - Set up a gateway. As noted, this could have issues related to freenode policy. One thought there is to change the topic to clear state that there is a gateway being used. I'm not actually sure how messages would get attributed when moved between the 2 chats - I'd imagine there may be a forwarding agent string involved. And handling of private messages would need to be carefully done (if one replies to the forwarding agent privately, you probably don't want to that appear to all the users on the other chat system) ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Improving IRC availability with a chat bridge
Not forming an opinion yet, giving guidance, etc. - just sharing feedback and comments. This link was shared on the IRC channel by a user in regards to Discord. https://www.tomsguide.com/us/help-me-toms-guide-discord-permissions,review-5104.html ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
