Re: [crossfire] Class change summary ideas
The discussion on the previous thread has died out, so I thought I'd draw some conclusions and move the discussion forward. While not a lot of responses, the most votes seemed to come in on the idea of classes play an important roll - there are exclusive skills, a fighter can never be as good as a wizard as a straight wizard, etc. Agreed. From a game perspective, this probably isn't a bad stepping point - it moves away from the current system some, but is not as radical. And as I think about it, a system with strict classes could basically start with this, and then just remove any ability (skill scrolls, quests, whatever) which grant skills in the game (different discussion, but it would perhaps be interesting to have conditional treasure lists based on settings in the game file). I think Brendan (and others) suggested to remove the skill scrolls totally, and have skills available through quests only. And of course some skills should be reserved to some classes :) - The characters starting skills have a good exp gain ratio (100%), and any learned skills have less good ratio (maybe 50%). In this way, a fighter which learns wizardry is at a pretty big disadvantage. Or reduce damage and duration for spells you recently learned? - Put level caps on learned skills. Maybe level 50. For this to have much effect, skills must have meaning at all levels - for example, right now, the highest spell level is around 20, so if you could still get to level 50, you would have all spells. So putting caps in would presume that skills gain abilities up to level 100 (I have more ideas on this below) - Put level caps on learned skills based on starting skill. Eg, the skill level that fighter has in wizardry can not exceed one half the level they have in their best combat skill. Or reduce damage and duration and range? The idea being that you can be a decent spellcaster, but never as good as a spellcaster who spent his youth studying magic :) - Add more abilities for all skills to higher levels. For spell casting skills, this may be spells at higher levels. For combat skills, it may mean certain special actions happen at higher levels (stun opponent, disarm, etc). Some of these could give stat bonuses - they would clearly give bonuses in the relevant stats (so combat skills would raise str, con, magic skills pow, int). Imagine for example a level 75 fighter getting +3 str and con from his combat skills - that is a pretty nice buff that makes it harder for mages to do as good. Could be interesting, yes. Would need to be well documented :) - Change sp/grace/hp starting values. Right now, all classes start with same values, except for any adjustments based on stats. But maybe barbarians should get +20 hp at start and -20 sp, reverse for wizards. This makes it more difficult to switch classes at low levels. Yes. See http://wiki.metalforge.net/doku.php/user:cavesomething:possible_stat_values and also http://wiki.metalforge.net/doku.php/user:ryo:stats - far from complete. - Change hp gain values. Right now, hp gain is based on total level - this means a high level wizard has just as many hp (given same con) as a fighter. At one point an experiment was done where hp was based on highest combat level (just as sp is based on highest mana level) - that made things too difficult, since wizards wouldn't have a high combat level. But one could do something like every combat level counts as a level for hp, but every 2 spellcasting levels counts as level for hp. Thus, a pure mage will will have fewer hp (otoh, as I type this, this doesn't seem like a great idea, as it now gives more reason for the mage to pick up combat levels) What about giving hp for spellcasting points? As you study magic more and more, your magical mastering goes up, and you can unconsciously maintain some magical life enhancing spells all the time. - Clean up/redo weapon skills. Right now, all classes start with the same weapon skills, so that wizard can pick up that 2 handed sword at first level and become a fighter. Wizards (and other classes) should get some lesser weapon skill that gives them fewer weapons they can use. Even classes like clerics get all weapons. A problem this creates is that spellcasting classes are good choices at first level (you get spellcasting skill + weapon skill). Changes I made a while ago allows a list of skills to be used, so one could add a bunch of different weapon skills (axe, hammer, sword, simple weapons) to limit the weapons some classes can use at first level without adding a bunch of new weapons to cover this. Another example here could be elves, which right now get missile weapons (every missile weapon) where as they should perhaps be limited to just bows. Again, I think the way is to cap the maximum reachable level or effect. And make it worth leveling in magic and NOT weapon for spellcasters. - Related
[crossfire] Class change summary ideas
The discussion on the previous thread has died out, so I thought I'd draw some conclusions and move the discussion forward. While not a lot of responses, the most votes seemed to come in on the idea of classes play an important roll - there are exclusive skills, a fighter can never be as good as a wizard as a straight wizard, etc. From a game perspective, this probably isn't a bad stepping point - it moves away from the current system some, but is not as radical. And as I think about it, a system with strict classes could basically start with this, and then just remove any ability (skill scrolls, quests, whatever) which grant skills in the game (different discussion, but it would perhaps be interesting to have conditional treasure lists based on settings in the game file). These are some ideas I have on making classes important, but still have ability to learn most skills in the game. Note that I do not mean to suggest that all these ideas be adopted - rather I'm putting some ideas I have out there that could make this happen and am seeking thoughts of others, as well as other ideas. - The characters starting skills have a good exp gain ratio (100%), and any learned skills have less good ratio (maybe 50%). In this way, a fighter which learns wizardry is at a pretty big disadvantage. - Put level caps on learned skills. Maybe level 50. For this to have much effect, skills must have meaning at all levels - for example, right now, the highest spell level is around 20, so if you could still get to level 50, you would have all spells. So putting caps in would presume that skills gain abilities up to level 100 (I have more ideas on this below) - Put level caps on learned skills based on starting skill. Eg, the skill level that fighter has in wizardry can not exceed one half the level they have in their best combat skill. - Add more abilities for all skills to higher levels. For spell casting skills, this may be spells at higher levels. For combat skills, it may mean certain special actions happen at higher levels (stun opponent, disarm, etc). Some of these could give stat bonuses - they would clearly give bonuses in the relevant stats (so combat skills would raise str, con, magic skills pow, int). Imagine for example a level 75 fighter getting +3 str and con from his combat skills - that is a pretty nice buff that makes it harder for mages to do as good. - Change sp/grace/hp starting values. Right now, all classes start with same values, except for any adjustments based on stats. But maybe barbarians should get +20 hp at start and -20 sp, reverse for wizards. This makes it more difficult to switch classes at low levels. - Change hp gain values. Right now, hp gain is based on total level - this means a high level wizard has just as many hp (given same con) as a fighter. At one point an experiment was done where hp was based on highest combat level (just as sp is based on highest mana level) - that made things too difficult, since wizards wouldn't have a high combat level. But one could do something like every combat level counts as a level for hp, but every 2 spellcasting levels counts as level for hp. Thus, a pure mage will will have fewer hp (otoh, as I type this, this doesn't seem like a great idea, as it now gives more reason for the mage to pick up combat levels) - Clean up/redo weapon skills. Right now, all classes start with the same weapon skills, so that wizard can pick up that 2 handed sword at first level and become a fighter. Wizards (and other classes) should get some lesser weapon skill that gives them fewer weapons they can use. Even classes like clerics get all weapons. A problem this creates is that spellcasting classes are good choices at first level (you get spellcasting skill + weapon skill). Changes I made a while ago allows a list of skills to be used, so one could add a bunch of different weapon skills (axe, hammer, sword, simple weapons) to limit the weapons some classes can use at first level without adding a bunch of new weapons to cover this. Another example here could be elves, which right now get missile weapons (every missile weapon) where as they should perhaps be limited to just bows. - Related to above, coming up with a description of each class and then figuring bonuses/skills may be in order - a lot of skills right now are given out for legacy reasons (everyone used to be able to do this, so everyone can do it now). An example of this would be barbarian - a savage non magic using class. As such, it probably should not start with use magical items skill - coming up with concepts for the classes and then balancing them may result in more interesting classes than trying to come up with a balanced class and saying that's good, but doesn't have any real flavor. - For class/races, it would be nicer to have a list of skills which are disallowed than hard code values. For
