RE: security questions

2008-08-07 Thread Scott Guthery
Another useful piece of research on the topic:

V. Griffith and M. Jakobsson.
Messin' with Texas, Deriving Mother's Maiden Names Using Public Records.
ACNS '05, 2005 and CryptoBytes Winter '07

http://www.informatics.indiana.edu/markus/papers.asp

Cheers, Scott

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Re: security questions

2008-08-07 Thread Stefan Kelm
 Wells Fargo is requiring their online banking customers to provide 
 answers to security questions such as these:

Does Wells Fargo really use the term security question here?

Just wondering,

Stefan.


Symposium Wirtschaftsspionage 03.09.2008 KA/Ettlingen
http://www.symposium-wirtschaftsspionage.de/
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Stefan Kelm
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Re: security questions

2008-08-07 Thread John Ioannidis
Does anyone know how this security questions disease started, and why 
it is spreading the way it is?  If your company does this, can you find 
the people responsible and ask them what they were thinking?


My theory is that no actual security people have ever been involved, and 
that it's just another one of those stupid design practices that are 
perpetuated because nobody has ever complained or that's what 
everybody is doing.


/ji

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Re: security questions

2008-08-07 Thread Peter Saint-Andre

Stefan Kelm wrote:
Wells Fargo is requiring their online banking customers to provide 
answers to security questions such as these:


Does Wells Fargo really use the term security question here?


Yes it does. I'm a Wells Fargo customer and I had to set my security 
questions yesterday in order to keep using their online banking system. 
The resulting email notification said in part:


Thank you for taking the time to set up your security questions. If we 
ever need to confirm your identity, your ability to give the correct 
answers to these questions will help us verify it's you.


/psa




smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature


Re: security questions

2008-08-07 Thread Leichter, Jerry
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, John Ioannidis wrote:
| Does anyone know how this security questions disease started, and
| why it is spreading the way it is?  If your company does this, can you
| find the people responsible and ask them what they were thinking?
| 
| My theory is that no actual security people have ever been involved,
| and that it's just another one of those stupid design practices that
| are perpetuated because nobody has ever complained or that's what
| everybody is doing.
As best I can determine - based on external observation, not insider
information - the evolution went something like this:

- It used to be when you needed to access an account by
phone, whoever you called just believed you were
who you said.

- Social engineering of such calls started to become a pain,
so something else was needed.  Call centers started to
ask for some additional data - mother's maiden name,
birthday, last four digits of SSN.  This was data that
was usually available anyway - SSN's have been used as
account id's for years, birthday and mother's maiden
name have been standard disambiguators among people with
similar names forever.

- In parallel, passwords started to infiltrate everyday life.
It's hard to recall that before ATM's became widely
used (mid to late '70's) there would really have been
no place the average consumer ever used a password.
Account numbers, sure - but they came pre-printed on
your statement or credit card and no one expected to
memorize them - and no one really thought of them as
passwords.

- Once people had to remember passwords, they started to forget
them.  Of course, before resetting a password, you have
to validate that the person asking for the reset is who
he said he is.  The cheapest approach is to use the
validation system you already have:  Those simple
security questions about birthdays and mothers.

- Password resetting became a significant cost; people to
talk on the phone to some idiot customer who's managed
to forget his password for the 3rd time in a month is
expensive.  So password reset services moved on-line.
But now identity validation became more of an issue:  It
was always assumed (with little justification) that it
was hard to fool a customer service guy into believing
you were someone else.  But a Web page?  You need to
provide *something* that a machine can check.
Initially, the same information that the humans check
was used - but in plain text on the screen, that felt
weak.  So ... why not have the user provide answers to a
couple of security questions that the program can then
use to validate him before assigning him a new password?

- Fast forward to a couple of years ago.  Identity theft is
becoming big business.  Most of that is due to really
bad security practices - laptops with tens of thousands
of unencrypted account records left in coffee shops,
unencrypted WiFi used to transfer credit card info at
large stores - but that's too embarrassing to talk about.
Various agencies, government and other get into the
act, demand accountability and best practices.
One best practice that gets written into actual
regulation in the banking business is two-factor
authentication.  That spreads as a best practice -
and your best defense against legal and other
problems is that you show you followed the industries
established best practice.  So now everyone needs to
do two-factor authentication.

- Ah, but just what does two-factor authentication mean?
We in the security biz know, but apparently none of
that makes it into the regs.  So, some company - I'm
sure with sufficient research one could even figure
out who - decides that, for them, two-factor means
the password plus the answer to a security question.
Cheap, easy to implement - they probably already have
such a system in place for password resets.  People
are used to it and accept it; no training is needed.
And ... somehow *they convice the regulatory agency
involved that this satisfies the regs*.

- The rest is history.  Everyone must do 

RE: security questions

2008-08-07 Thread piers . bowness
John Ioannidis wrote:
| Does anyone know how this security questions disease started, and
why 
| it is spreading the way it is?  If your company does this, can you
find 
| the people responsible and ask them what they were thinking?

The answer is Help Desk Call Avoidance; allow the end-user to fix
their own account without having to get someone on the phone. This is
simply an available mechanism in the spectrum between easy-to-use and
rock-solid security.

| My theory is that no actual security people have ever been involved,
and 
| that it's just another one of those stupid design practices that are 
| perpetuated because nobody has ever complained or that's what 
| everybody is doing.

Your theory is incorrect. There is considerable analysis on what
constitute good security questions based on the anticipated entropy of
the responses. This is why, for example, no good security question has a
yes/no answer (i.e., 1-bit). Aren't security questions just an
automation of what happens once you get a customer service
representative on the phone? In some regards they may be more secure as
they're less subject to social manipulation (i.e., if I mention a few
possible answers to a customer support person, I can probably get them
to confirm an answer for me).

-Piers
--
Piers Bowness
RSA - The Security Division of EMC


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