Re: [spam]::Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-13 Thread Jonathan Thornburg

In an earlier message, I wrote

I would never use online banking, and I advise all my friends and
colleagues (particularly those who _aren't_ computer-security-geeks) to
avoid it.



Jason Axley asked

Why do you not use OLB?


Basically, so far as I know the fine print in online bank service
agreements basically says you (the customer) are responsible for any
transactions we receive with your username and pin, and our electronic
records are the final word on this.

Thus if there is an a false transaction on my account, i.e. one which
I did not intend to authorize (whether this happened due to insider
fraud in the bank, MITM phishing, virus in my computer, or whatever
other cause), the basic legal presumption is that it's my loss, not
the bank's.  I consider the risks of this too high.



 What would need to
be fixed for you to use OLB in the future?


I would want the same ability to refuse an unauthorized transaction
that I have now with credit cards, where basically any losses over
50 Euros/dollars are the bank's problem, not mine.



What is your threat model
(WIYTM)?


For online banking, any/all of
(a) insider fraud at the bank and/or anyone else to whom they've
outsourced relevant processing
(b) computer breakin/theft at the bank and/or anyone else to whom
they've outsourced relevant processing
(c) MITM phishing or DNS hijacking
(d) viruses/worms in my computer



 What risks are present in OLB that are not present in the
offline world?


(c) and (d) above.  Also liability for problems is mine, not the bank's
(see above).  Also there are few paper records that I can use to help
document problems.

In the offline world, (a) and (b) are mitigated by paper records
(and forms with my written signature) which crooks usually don't
bother forging.



What about the risks of the offline financial world?


If I wire-transfer money from my bank in Germany to my credit union
in Canada, my written signature is (supposed to be) required to verify
that I did in fact authorize the transaction.  If the bank sends my
money off to a crook's account (whether by mistake or due to deliberate
fraud), the next time I get a statement I'll notice, and I'll ask them
what happened.  If the bank can't show me a piece of paper with my
signature on it, my understanding is that (if I complain enough) I can
force them to refund the money to me (so it's then their problem to try
to recover it from wherever it went).



 For example, all of
the information that someone needs to put money in, or take it out, of
your checking account via ACH is nicely printed in magnetic ink on your
checks in the US.  And you give it out to anyone when you write them a
check.


Where I live now (Germany) people don't use cheques, they do bank
transfers which the *payer* gives direct to her bank.  These (are
supposed to) have the written signature of the payer (the account-holder).
If someone forges one of these and takes money out of my account, I can
refuse the transaction and (I understand) the bank is legally required
to refund the money to me (and it's their problem to recover it from
whoever got it).

When I lived in Canada (where people use cheques in the same way
as in the US), my understanding is that
(a) Even with the transit/routing numbers, noone is supposed to be able
to take money out of an account without prior written permission.
A cheque constitutes such permission _for_a_specific_transaction_,
but not for any other transaction(s).
(b) If someone forges another cheque (eg scans my signature etc),
and my bank honors it and takes the money out of my account.
then since I didn't actually sign that cheque, legally it's the
bank's fault for honoring it, and (if I complain enough)
I can force the bank to refund the money to me (so it's then
the bank's problem to try to recover it from the crook).



This reminded me of how I laughed when I saw an interview with a local
security person where he said that he didn't even connect a computer to
the Internet at home due to the risk.  To me, this seems akin to deciding
to not leave your house because you can't be sure someone won't shoot
you dead.


Well, in certain places that's basically what people do.  For example,
many foreign people in Bhagdad don't venture out of the green zone.
My point is that when substantial amounts of money are involved, IMHO
the internet is basically a red zone where I don't feel safe venturing.

ciao,

--
-- Jonathan Thornburg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Max-Planck-Institut fuer Gravitationsphysik (Albert-Einstein-Institut),
   Golm, Germany, Old Europe http://www.aei.mpg.de/~jthorn/home.html
   Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.
  -- quote by Freire / poster by Oxfam


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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-13 Thread Peter Clay
On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 07:29:11PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote:
 For those of you who haven't rolled out a national ID scheme in time,
 there's still the general identity theft problem, but this affects you
 even if you don't use online banking.

Hmm. What's the evidence that national ID schemes reduce credit fraud
(what people normally mean when they say ID theft)? How does it vary
with the different types of scheme?

I've been opposing the UK scheme recently on the grounds of unreliable
biometrics and the bad idea of putting everyone's information in a
basket from which it can be stolen (in addition to the civil liberties
reasons). My solution to the credit fraud problem is simple: raise the
burden of proof for negative credit reports and pursuing people for
money.

Pete
-- 
Peter Clay   | Campaign for   _  _| .__
 | Digital   /  / | |
 | Rights!   \_ \_| |
 | http://www.ukcdr.org

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-13 Thread Anne Lynn Wheeler
Peter Clay wrote:
 Hmm. What's the evidence that national ID schemes reduce credit fraud
 (what people normally mean when they say ID theft)? How does it vary
 with the different types of scheme?
 
 I've been opposing the UK scheme recently on the grounds of unreliable
 biometrics and the bad idea of putting everyone's information in a
 basket from which it can be stolen (in addition to the civil liberties
 reasons). My solution to the credit fraud problem is simple: raise the
 burden of proof for negative credit reports and pursuing people for
 money.

some number of organizations have come up with the term account fraud
... where fraudulent transactions are done against existing accounts ...
to differentiate from other forms of identity theft which involves
things like using a stolen identity to establish new accounts.

account fraud just requires strong authentication applied consistently
... doesn't require identification ... although there are cases where
identification is confused and is used as a supstitute for
authentication. part of the issue of confusing identification for
authentication ... is that it is typically quite a bit more privacy
evasive than pure authentication.

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-08 Thread Bill Stewart

At 08:05 PM 12/2/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
list use or have used online banking.


I've used it for about a decade at my credit union,
and I've had my paychecks deposited directly for decades.
There are things I absolutely won't do,
like have a debit card attached to the account,
or have companies authorized to take money out directly,
or have electronic checks of various sorts taken out of the account.
Normally I don't do email with them (though nobody appears to have
noticed them as a phishing target), but I did have one time
I had to ask about a transaction, and they do that by email,
so I was able to trust the responses.

But for basic services where I tell them what to send to whom,
it's reliable, appears to be at least as secure as
the other risks to the account, and it means that the
basic payments I need to make every month happen automatically,
so I only have to pay attention to the occasional variable transaction.

I've also used account-based electronic gold services,
but only transactionally, so at most they end up with a couple dollars
worth of exchange-rate breakage in them, and there are some
non-account-based services that I've also used.
I won't use e-gold - not that their website is obviously insecure,
but for a while there was so much e-gold phishing that
I set my filters to automatically discard anything purporting
to be from them, which might interfere with doing real business.
On the other hand, they don't appear to state a policy of
always digitally signing all transactions, so I'm a bit concerned
beyond the more blatant phishing risks.

Thanks; Bill Stewart




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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-07 Thread Janusz A. Urbanowicz
On Fri, Dec 02, 2005 at 11:05:29PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
 list use or have used online banking.  
 
 To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.

This is from European perspective: I do and couldn't do without it now. Most
of my obligations, from rent though auctions, to lending a friend a local
equivalent of 20 bucks are paid with bank transfers. 

But I believe online banking works in a slightly different way than in US.
Of online banking systems I've seen, almost all banks use two-factor auth in
some way (except Polish branch of Citibank and a bank that uses very broken
and complicated scheme where stored client RSA keypair is sent to his
browser ActiveX when client logs in with user/pass). Most common are lists
of one-time passwords delivered securely, or hardware tokens, RSA SecurID or
Vasco Digipass DP100 wih challenge-response mode used to verify
transactions. In those banks, if you have login name and pass, you can only
do non-balance changing operations on a account without the something you
have part; and you cannot change personal info wihout some form of out-of
band authentication (to change registered address user needs to send a form
with attached copy of national ID card, to confirm that or to reset lost
password bank calls user's preregistered phone number).

I can say I HAVE a secure link to one of the nations's traffic exchange
points (unintended job benefit), and I run my own DNS servers, so MITM
probability is reduced. I do not log in from machines I don't trust and own
(with one exception on own) and using networks I don't trust. Bank
statements come on paper or in S/MIME signed emails. I do not log in using
links provided in HTML emails.

Am I secure? I consider the risk of fraud using online banking to be less
than the one of paying with a VISA in a restaurant or a taxi. 

Alex
-- 
mors ab alto 
0x46399138

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AW: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-07 Thread Kuehn, Ulrich
 -Urspr√ľngliche Nachricht-
 Von: Nicholas Bohm [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Gesendet: Dienstag, 6. Dezember 2005 12:03
 An: Florian Weimer
 Cc: cryptography@metzdowd.com
 Betreff: Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools
 
 Florian Weimer wrote:
  * Nicholas Bohm:
[...]
 
 I hope, not too confidently, that before the attackers adjust 
 enough, banks will start giving their customers FINREAD type 
 secure-signature-creation devices of decent provenance whose 
 security does not rely on non-compromise of my PC or network.
 
In 2000 someone here in Germany already demonstrated how to attack smart card 
based HBCI transactions. Those transactions are authorized by an RSA signature 
done by the card. 

The attack demonstration used a trojan (I think it was something like back 
orifice) to remote control the victim's PC with the attached smart card reader, 
so that the PIN entered on the PC key board(!) could be sniffed and 
subsequently the PC including reader and smart card be used as a sort of remote 
signature generation device, authorizing any transaction of the attacker's 
choice. So under some circumstances even signature-based authorization does not 
work as advertised.

The attack relyed on the card reader not having a separate keyboard for PIN 
entry. Interestingly, I wonder what would happen if a reader with display and 
keyboard is used in an online attack, i.e. the adversary sneaks in a fraudulent 
transaction when the hash for the signature is computed. I do not know from the 
top of my head what is supposed to be displayed in the reader's display, so I 
do not know what impact such an attempt would have. 

Any suggestions?

Ulrich

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Re: AW: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-07 Thread Florian Weimer
* Ulrich Kuehn:

 In 2000 someone here in Germany already demonstrated how to attack
 smart card based HBCI transactions. Those transactions are
 authorized by an RSA signature done by the card.

Here's a link: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/9349

 The attack relyed on the card reader not having a separate keyboard
 for PIN entry.

In this particular implementation, yes.

There are other attacks if you control the end user system:

You can display a dialog box requesting that the user enters the PIN
on the host, and not on the PIN pad.  Typical smartcard work in
various card readers (with and without PIN pads), so you can later use
the PIN to create additional transactions.

It turns out that you need not do this, though: once the end user has
entered the PIN, you can create as many signatures as you like.  In
this sense, the PIN/TAN approach is more secure than smartcards.

 Interestingly, I wonder what would happen if a reader with display
 and keyboard is used in an online attack, i.e. the adversary sneaks
 in a fraudulent transaction when the hash for the signature is
 computed. I do not know from the top of my head what is supposed to
 be displayed in the reader's display, so I do not know what impact
 such an attempt would have.

The display contents is supplied by the end user computer, not the
smartcard, so it's still possible to break this scheme just by
attacking the computer.

 Any suggestions?

Postbank's mTAN is promising because uses a separate channel which is
currently not very easy to attack, but the activation procedure is
fundamentally flawed.  Costs are probably too high to introduce this
as a general countermeasure, though.

In the long term, we need a standardized device which generates TANs
which depend on the transaction contents (target account and amount).
Standardization is important because you don't want to carry around
such a device for each plastic card you own.

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-07 Thread Steven M. Bellovin
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Janusz A. Urbanowicz
 writes:

Bank
statements come on paper or in S/MIME signed emails. 

This is interesting -- the bank is using S/MIME?  What mail readers are 
common among its clientele?  How is the bank's certificate checked?

--Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb



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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-07 Thread Janusz A. Urbanowicz
On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 10:31:52AM -0500, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:
 In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Janusz A. Urbanowicz
  writes:
 
 Bank statements come on paper or in S/MIME signed emails. 
 
 This is interesting -- the bank is using S/MIME?  What mail readers are 
 common among its clientele?  How is the bank's certificate checked?

From my observation, the most popular standalone MUA here is Outlook
Express, with Mozilla/Thunderbird being a distant second place. Those do
support S/MIME, and the signature is verified properly.

Average internet/internet banking user  is more likely to use some web-based
MUA on a commercial portal, which in general do not support cryptographic
signatures of any kind.

The signature is issued using key Certified by Verisign Class 1 cacert, co
it verifies on Windows machines and in Mozilla-based software with recent CA
certs bundle.

I have attached signature binary stripped from one statement to this
message, in case someone wants to analyze it.

I do not have any hard data on MUA usage among bank clientele; my wild guess
is that it is 1/3 of the users use one of the above programs, 2/3 use
portal services. The signatures were introduced some time after the bank
went into service, so there was some problem to be solved with it.

This is internet-only bank with no physical branches around the country, all
communication with the bank is done via internet, phone and messenger
services.

What I do not understand, is that the bank in question started
turing-encoding requested code number when asking for one time code to
authenticate the transaction.

Alex
-- 
0x46399138


smime.p7s
Description: Binary data


Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-06 Thread Steven M. Bellovin
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jonathan Thor
nburg writes:
I would never use online banking, and I advise all my friends and
colleagues (particularly those who _aren't_ computer-security-geeks)
to avoid it.


I do use it -- but never from a Windows machine.  The OS I use is 
probably better, but it's *definitely* a much less attractive target 
for malware writers.

Problems?  I did have my credit card number stolen, but almost 
certainly not that way.  The bank believes it was a random card number 
generator.

--Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb



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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-06 Thread Florian Weimer
* Nicholas Bohm:

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
 list use or have used online banking.  
 
 To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.
 
 --dan

 I do.

 My bank provides an RSA SecureId, so I feel reasonably safe against
 anyone other than the bank.

But it's just a token measure.  You should be afraid of your own
computer, your own network.  SecureID does not authenticate the server
you're going to send your data to.  It does not detect if your
computer is compromised.

Sure, right now, it might help you personally, but once these simple
tokens gain market share, attackers will adjust.  It's not a general
solution.

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-06 Thread mis
please, can people tell us about what their country's liability
framework is, as they understand it, and where the onus of proof is
for what sorts of transactions?

this is one of the few areas where consumers have some actual
protection in the us.

due to ross anderson, i have heard about the uk.   has this been harmonized
in the eu?

many other countries are a mystery to me.

it would seem to me even in countries with pro-bank/anti-consumer stances
the risk could be limited by putting few eggs in that basket, rather than
giving up on using baskets entirely.

as an offering from left field, here's an pretty good paper about
fraud and identity in .au and .nz
http://www.aic.gov.au/conferences/other/smith_russell/2003-09-identity.html


On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 07:09:33PM +0100, Jonathan Thornburg wrote:
 I would never use online banking, and I advise all my friends and
 colleagues (particularly those who _aren't_ computer-security-geeks)
 to avoid it.
 
 
 On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 05:51:11PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I've been using online banking for many years, both US and Germany.
 The German PIN/TAN system is reasonably secure,
 being an effective one-time pad distributed through out of band channel
 
 Ahh, but how do you know that the transaction actually sent to the
 bank is the same as the one you thought you authorized with that OTP?
 If your computer (or web browser) has been cracked, you can't trust
 _anything_ it displays.  There are already viruses in the wild
 attacking German online banking this way:
   http://www.bsi.bund.de/av/vb/pwsteal_e.htm
 
 
 I also don't trust RSAsafe or other such 2-factor authentication
 gadgets, for the same reason.
 
 [I don't particularly trust buying things online with a credit card,
 either, but there my liability is limited to 50 Euros or so, and the
 credit card companies actually put a modicum of effort into watching
 for suspicious transactions, so I'm willing to buy (a few) things online.]
 
 ciao,
 
 -- 
 -- Jonathan Thornburg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Gravitationsphysik (Albert-Einstein-Institut),
Golm, Germany, Old Europe http://www.aei.mpg.de/~jthorn/home.html
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
 powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.
   -- quote by Freire / poster by Oxfam
 
 
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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-06 Thread Florian Weimer
 You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
 list use or have used online banking.  

 To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.

Why?  Repudiating transactions is easier than ever.  As a consumer, I
fear technology which is completely secure according to experts, but
which can be broken nevertheless.  The current situation is very
different.  Everybody agrees that online banking is insecure, and in
most markets, it's the banks who swallow the losses, not the consumer
(even those who were very stupid).

For those of you who haven't rolled out a national ID scheme in time,
there's still the general identity theft problem, but this affects you
even if you don't use online banking.

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-06 Thread Florian Weimer
* Eugen Leitl:

 The German PIN/TAN system is reasonably secure, being an effective
 one-time pad distributed through out of band channel (mailed dead
 tree in a tamperproof envelope).

Some banks have optimized away the special envelope. 8-(

 It is of course not immune to phishing (PIN/TAN harvesting), which
 has become quite rampant recently.

And we face quite advanced attack technology, mainly compromised end
systems.  We are well beyond the point where simple tokens (like RSA
SecureID) would help.

 I do have a HBCI smartcard setup with my private account but don't use it
 since it's locked in a proprietary software jail.

The way the current attacks are carried out, smartcard-based HBCI is
less secure than the PIN/TAN model because with HBCI, you don't need
to authorize each transaction separately.  At this stage, few people
recognize this problem, and German banks put high hopes on
smartcard-based online banking, despite its high costs in terms of
consumer devices and support calls.

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-06 Thread Florian Weimer
* Jonathan Thornburg:

 Ahh, but how do you know that the transaction actually sent to the
 bank is the same as the one you thought you authorized with that OTP?
 If your computer (or web browser) has been cracked, you can't trust
 _anything_ it displays.  There are already viruses in the wild
 attacking German online banking this way:
   http://www.bsi.bund.de/av/vb/pwsteal_e.htm

Of course you don't.  In some sense, the next-generation security
technology which U.S. banks plan to roll out (either voluntarily, or
due to regulation) has already been broken in Germany.

If you bring the topic up in discussions, the usual answer is don't
MITM me! (meaning: Don't mention man-in-the-middle attacks,
including compromised customer systems, because you know we can't
defend against them! This is not fair!).  But this is not a valid
response when experience shows that the relevant attacks *are* MITM
attacks.

 I also don't trust RSAsafe or other such 2-factor authentication
 gadgets, for the same reason.

I'm always glad to read someone who agrees with me on this matter. 8-)

I don't understand why almost everyone is in a frenzy to deploy them.
If you can somehow weasel through the next 6 months or so, it will be
completely non-repudiatable that transactions covered by two-factor
authentication are fully repudiatable.  You can save a lot of money
(including your customers' money) if you manage to skip this
technology cycle.  The only problem could be that the media and
security experts smack you if you don't deploy the same, broken
countermeasures everyone else does.

By the way, one interesting aspect of the online banking problem is
its implications for threat modelling, attack trees, and similar
approaches.  It would be interesting to compare a few models and why
they fail to adequately describe the situation.  My hunch is that
these models do not take two factors into account: Attacks aren't
targeted by the cost/revenue alone, tradition plays a major role, too,
as does sheer luck.  And you are caught in a feedback loop; the
attacks change as you deploy new countermeasures, and the changes are
mostly unpredictable.

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-06 Thread Ian G

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

okay, i read this story from 7/2005 reporting an incident in 5/2005.  the short 
form of it is:


Not a bad summary.  I'd say that when one is
dealing with any such crime, there are always
unanswered questions, and issues of confusion
(probably as much for the attacker as the victim).


even more off-topic:
i'm surprised that the people on this list don't feel as if they have 
enough
personal connections that at least they could figure out what happened 
to them
as *some* financial institution.  doesn't anyone else ask, as a basis 
for imputing
	trust  exactly who did that {protocol, architecture, code} review as a basis for 
	imputing trust?  maybe i'm delusional, but i give fidelity some residual credit 
	for having adam shostack there, even some years ago, and there are some firms

i'd use because i've been there enough to see their level of care.


Well, even though phishing has been discussed
on this list for about 2 years, it is only in
the last 6 months or so that there has been a
wider acceptance in the subject.  I think your
specific question has been asked so many times
that people's eyes glaze over.

Only in the last few *weeks* did two of the browser
manufacturers acknowledge it publically.  So I
wouldn't expect too much from the banks, who have
to receive authoritive press, institution  regulatory
input before they will shift on matters of security.

iang

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-06 Thread Nicholas Bohm
Florian Weimer wrote:
 * Nicholas Bohm:
 
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
list use or have used online banking.  

To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.

--dan

I do.

My bank provides an RSA SecureId, so I feel reasonably safe against
anyone other than the bank.
 
 
 But it's just a token measure.  You should be afraid of your own
 computer, your own network.  SecureID does not authenticate the server
 you're going to send your data to.  It does not detect if your
 computer is compromised.
 
 Sure, right now, it might help you personally, but once these simple
 tokens gain market share, attackers will adjust.  It's not a general
 solution.

I accept all that.

I hope, not too confidently, that before the attackers adjust enough,
banks will start giving their customers FINREAD type
secure-signature-creation devices of decent provenance whose security
does not rely on non-compromise of my PC or network.

Nicholas Bohm
-- 
Salkyns, Great Canfield, Takeley,
Bishop's Stortford CM22 6SX, UK

Phone   01279 871272(+44 1279 871272)
Fax  020 7788 2198   (+44 20 7788 2198)
Mobile  07715 419728(+44 7715 419728)

PGP public key ID: 0x899DD7FF.  Fingerprint:
5248 1320 B42E 84FC 1E8B  A9E6 0912 AE66 899D D7FF

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-05 Thread Kerry Thompson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
 list use or have used online banking.

 To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.

I do. Although, only from PCs that I trust such as my linux box at home.
And I keep a close watch on my bank statements.

All things considered, its safer than posting cheques or distributing your
credit card number around.


-- 
Kerry Thompson
http://www.crypt.gen.nz



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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-05 Thread Ian G

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

dan, maybe you should just keep less money in the bank.

i use online banking and financial services of almost every kind
(except bill presentment, because i like paper bills).  i ccannot do
without it.

it seems to me the question is how much liability do i expose myself to by
doing this, in return for what savings and convenience.  


That part I agree with, but this part:


i don't keep a lot of money in banks (why would anyone?)  -- most of
the assets are in (e.g.)  brokerage accounts.  at most  i'm exposing
a month of payroll check to an attacker briefly until it pays some
bill or is transferred to another asset account.  


George's story - watching my Ameritrade account get phished out in 3 minutes
https://www.financialcryptography.com/mt/archives/000515.html

Seems like a hopeful categorisation!

iang

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-05 Thread Nicholas Bohm
Kerry Thompson wrote:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
list use or have used online banking.

To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.
 
 
 I do. Although, only from PCs that I trust such as my linux box at home.
 And I keep a close watch on my bank statements.
 
 All things considered, its safer than posting cheques or distributing your
 credit card number around.

That depends on how the risk of loss is allocated.  This can vary
between different legal systems, and may depend on the terms in force
between bank and customer.

For an exploration of this in the context of English law, see
http://elj.warwick.ac.uk/jilt/00-3/bohm.html

Nicholas Bohm
-- 
Salkyns, Great Canfield, Takeley,
Bishop's Stortford CM22 6SX, UK

Phone   01279 871272(+44 1279 871272)
Fax  020 7788 2198   (+44 20 7788 2198)
Mobile  07715 419728(+44 7715 419728)

PGP public key ID: 0x899DD7FF.  Fingerprint:
5248 1320 B42E 84FC 1E8B  A9E6 0912 AE66 899D D7FF

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-05 Thread mis
On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 09:24:04AM +, Ian G wrote:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 it seems to me the question is how much liability do i expose myself to by
 doing this, in return for what savings and convenience.  
 
 That part I agree with, but this part:
 
 i don't keep a lot of money in banks (why would anyone?)  -- most of
 the assets are in (e.g.)  brokerage accounts.  at most  i'm exposing
 a month of payroll check to an attacker briefly until it pays some
 bill or is transferred to another asset account.  
 
 George's story - watching my Ameritrade account get phished out in 3 minutes
 https://www.financialcryptography.com/mt/archives/000515.html
 
 Seems like a hopeful categorisation!
 
 iang

okay, i read this story from 7/2005 reporting an incident in 5/2005.  the short 
form of it is:

the bad guys changed the associated bank account,
then they placed orders to sell everything at market prices.
at some point they changed the email address to a hotmail account  (if they'd 
done this first he would
have gotten less notice)
for some unexplained reason he received confirmations of the trades at the old 
email address.
actual cash didn't get transfered at least because of the 3 day settlement time 
for the trades.

the rest was dealing with law enforcement and customer service punes who 
wouldn't tell him
anything for privacy reasons.  

well, i have lots of nit-picking questions, about the actual incident
and about the general point.

about the actual incident:
maybe his password was phished, maybe it was malware, 
maybe it was password reuse and some other account was phished.  
how was the bofa account set up?  (the fraudster's destination account) 
in these days of 
patriot act know your customer? (or was it someone's phished account 
also used just for transit?)

why didn't they just do the wire transfer early, and leave him with a 
giant margin balance
to be paid from the proceeds at settlement?  


about the general point:

the main thing online access changes (compared with phone access, or written
instructions) is the velocity.  
most sensible institutions provide change of account status 
notifications
by both email and postal mail (to both the old and the new addresses).
some sensible institutions put brakes on removing money from the system,
certainly for new accounts and (as i recommend to my clients) after an 
account 
change reflecting identity or control.

aside from the time and energy drain of identity theft, what is the
financial liability for consumers if your us-based brokerage account
is phished resulting in a fraudulent funds transfer?  does anyone know 
if there is any uniform protection (such as reg e would cover for interbank
funds transfers?)

i insert the weasel-words consumers and us-based because
of bofa's behavior in the joe lopez malware case, where they
are trying to claim he is a business not a consumer, and that
they are without fault in wire transfering his funds to latvia.

slightly off-topic:
remember abraham abdallah, the brooklyn busboy who assumed the
identity of a large number of the fortune 200 richest?  made goldman
sachs signature guaranteed stamps and opened accounts in their number?
had 800 fraudulent credit cards and 2 blank cards when he was 
arrested?  (hey kids!  collect 'em all!).  my point is only that this 
is
possible without my participating.  as jerry leichter reminded me, 
the fact there there are these facilities available means a bad guy can
use them even if i do not, unless i can not only opt out but forbid 
anyone
else from subsequently opting in, the moral equivalent of cutting your 
debit
card in half and returning it to the bank (rather than just destroying 
the PIN).


even more off-topic:
i'm surprised that the people on this list don't feel as if they have 
enough
personal connections that at least they could figure out what happened 
to them
as *some* financial institution.  doesn't anyone else ask, as a basis 
for imputing
trust  exactly who did that {protocol, architecture, code} review as a 
basis for 
imputing trust?  maybe i'm delusional, but i give fidelity some 
residual credit 
for having adam shostack there, even some years ago, and there are some 
firms
i'd use because i've been there enough to see their level of care.






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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-05 Thread Jonathan Thornburg

I would never use online banking, and I advise all my friends and
colleagues (particularly those who _aren't_ computer-security-geeks)
to avoid it.



On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 05:51:11PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've been using online banking for many years, both US and Germany.
The German PIN/TAN system is reasonably secure,
being an effective one-time pad distributed through out of band channel


Ahh, but how do you know that the transaction actually sent to the
bank is the same as the one you thought you authorized with that OTP?
If your computer (or web browser) has been cracked, you can't trust
_anything_ it displays.  There are already viruses in the wild
attacking German online banking this way:
  http://www.bsi.bund.de/av/vb/pwsteal_e.htm


I also don't trust RSAsafe or other such 2-factor authentication
gadgets, for the same reason.

[I don't particularly trust buying things online with a credit card,
either, but there my liability is limited to 50 Euros or so, and the
credit card companies actually put a modicum of effort into watching
for suspicious transactions, so I'm willing to buy (a few) things online.]

ciao,

--
-- Jonathan Thornburg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Max-Planck-Institut fuer Gravitationsphysik (Albert-Einstein-Institut),
   Golm, Germany, Old Europe http://www.aei.mpg.de/~jthorn/home.html
   Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.
  -- quote by Freire / poster by Oxfam


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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-04 Thread R. A. Hettinga
At 2:29 PM -0800 12/3/05, John Gilmore wrote:
 ...how many people on this list use or have used online banking?
 To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.

Dan, that makes two of us.

The only thing I ever use it for is to make sure the wires are in before I
spend money. :-)

Cheers,
RAH
Still living at the bottom of the bathtub curve...
-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-04 Thread mis
dan, maybe you should just keep less money in the bank.

i use online banking and financial services of almost every kind
(except bill presentment, because i like paper bills).  i ccannot do
without it.

it seems to me the question is how much liability do i expose myself to by
doing this, in return for what savings and convenience.  

i don't keep a lot of money in banks (why would anyone?)  -- most of
the assets are in (e.g.)  brokerage accounts.  at most  i'm exposing
a month of payroll check to an attacker briefly until it pays some
bill or is transferred to another asset account.  

(the lack of payment planning tools is my biggest beef with bill
paying systems... it's so stupid that they don't show you the future
running balances based on already arranged scheduled payments and
regular withdrawals).

i have an slightly too elaborate drip-feed system set up, with direct
deposit of the paycheck into an account which pays (as scheduled
payments) my fixed bills automatically every month and makes minimum
credit card payments too, so i don't often pay nuisance fees.  (my
utilities have been switched to average payment plans, or more
recently to bill to credit cards so they fit into this plan).

i haven't written more than a few paper checks in years.  i just add the
payee to the online system and have the bank do it.  the online system
has paid around 200 bills so far this year. 

so i save on time, on postage, on the float (since the banks do ach
transfers to the larger payees which often post in 2-3 days), on
nuisance and finance charges, and on the phone, complaining about
problems posting paper checks.

i would notice a fraudulent transfer on my online backing long before
i would notice a fraudulent paper check written against the same account.

not only do i use online banking, i use aggregation systems which scrape
screens for most of my accounts and display recent transactions,
current balances, etc.  

i think i've tried almost all of these.
fidelity's full view seems among the best of the group (they 
use
yodlee for the scraping but manage their own password store).
(while dan is surveying, i'll ask if anyone is using gnucash 
for this).

i find this extremely helpful in managing diversification across
several accounts, and in noticing such details such as both sides of
payments or transfers between institutions or charges on infrequently
used credit card accounts.

an interesting question regarding aggregation was whether i should let
them use the information they scraped to decide what to offer me.  (so
far they haven't offered me a free toaster to entice me to move assets
to them.  according to an informant, they don't use the information
for poaching.)

On Fri, Dec 02, 2005 at 11:05:29PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
 list use or have used online banking.  
 
 To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.
 
 --dan
 
 
 Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for
 discussing the implications of various paranoid delusions.
 -- Don Alvarez 
 
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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-04 Thread Nicholas Bohm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
 list use or have used online banking.  
 
 To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.
 
 --dan

I do.

My bank provides an RSA SecureId, so I feel reasonably safe against
anyone other than the bank.  I have no basis for knowing how good the
bank's precautions against insider fraud are, but they phone back to
confirm unusual instructions, and they ask for only fragments of
passwords when they do, so there is evidence that they make sensible
efforts to do the right thing.

I have been a good customer for more than 30 years, it's a highly
respectable specialist bank, I am a lawyer, and if I find a fake
transaction on my account I believe I stand a good chance of fighting
it.  I know who to hire as an expert to investigate the bank's system
when I have put it in issue in litigation.  The aggregate of my balance
and my credit limit is an amount I can afford to lose.

In this context the convenience of online banking is enough to justify
the risk.

Nicholas Bohm
-- 
Salkyns, Great Canfield, Takeley,
Bishop's Stortford CM22 6SX, UK

Phone   01279 871272(+44 1279 871272)
Fax  020 7788 2198   (+44 20 7788 2198)
Mobile  07715 419728(+44 7715 419728)

PGP public key ID: 0x899DD7FF.  Fingerprint:
5248 1320 B42E 84FC 1E8B  A9E6 0912 AE66 899D D7FF


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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-04 Thread Ian G

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
list use or have used online banking.  


To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.


I have not!  I declined the chance when my
bank told me that I had to download their
special client that only runs on windows...

However, I have used and/or written many
online DGC tools (which is for the sake of
this discussion, gold-denominated online
payments) which are honed through experience,
incentive and willingness to deal with the
issues.

( As an aside, e-gold was generally the first
to be hit by these problems as well as all the
other problems that have only effected banks
in passing.  Generally the DGC sector is much
more savvy about threats, through repetitive
losses, at least. )

iang

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-04 Thread leichter_jerrold
| You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
| list use or have used online banking.  
| 
| To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.
Until a couple of months ago, I avoided doing anything of this sort at all.
Simple reasoning:  If I know I never do any financial stuff on-line, I can
safely delete any message from a bank or other financial institution.

Now, I pay some large bills - mortgage, credit cards - on line.  I just got
tired of the ever-increasing penalties for being even a day late in paying -
coupled with ever-more-unpredictable post office delivery times.  (Then
again,
who can really say when the letter arrived at the credit card company?  You
have to accept their word for it, and they have every incentive to err in 
their own favor.)

I have consistently refused on-line delivery of statements, automated
paying, 
or anything of that sort.  I cannot at this point forsee a world in which I 
would trust these systems enough to willingly move in that direction.  (It
doesn't help that, for example, one credit-card site I use - ATT Universal
-
sends an invalid certificate.  ATT Universal has its own URL, but they
are 
owned by Citibank, so use the citibank.com certificate)

Of course, increasingly one has little choice.  My employer doesn't provide
an 
option:  Pay stubs are on-line only.  Reimbursment reports likewise.

There are increasing hints of various benefits if you use the on-line
systems for banking and credit cards and such.  The next step - it won't
be long - will be charges for using the old paper systems.  How many people 
here still ask for paper airline tickets?  (I gave up on this one)

-- Jerry


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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-03 Thread dan

You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
list use or have used online banking.  

To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.

--dan


Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for
discussing the implications of various paranoid delusions.
-- Don Alvarez 

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-03 Thread Greg Black
On 2005-12-02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
 list use or have used online banking.  
 
 To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.

I've been using it for me and my wife with 3 banks since they
first offered it; I use it every week to pay all our bills and
would not be without it.  The benefits I have gained from not
having to waste time doing things the old way have proved to be
substantial and I get to notice and resolve the occasional error
(always in the form of fraudulent debits to credit cards) much
faster than in the old days when I had to wait for the monthly
statements.

It's probably not related to my use of online banking, but it
has also been noticeable that fraudulent debits to our credit
cards have dropped from about 5 per card per year five years ago
to one such debit to the 6 cards we use in the past two years.

I detest banks and have had many battles with them over various
issues over the years, but I remain confident that my careful
practices, meticulous record keeping and careful management of
passwords will continue to give me the edge in any dispute with
them.  And the cost to me of any such disputes seems unlikely to
be anything like the benefits I have gained from online banking.

Greg

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-03 Thread John Gilmore
 ...how many people on this list use or have used online banking?
 To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.

Dan, that makes two of us.

John

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Re: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-03 Thread Paul Hoffman

At 11:05 PM -0500 12/2/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You know, I'd wonder how many people on this
list use or have used online banking. 


To start the ball rolling, I have not and won't.


I have, and it's nice for making Quicken data entry faster, but 
that's about all. The rest gives me the willies when I see the 
security clue of the folks running the site.


FWIW, I have never had a problem changing my password to something 
very long and all-alphabetic, even if I don't include at least one 
capital letter and one digit or whatever the CYA rules for passwords 
are these days.


--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

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[Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools

2005-12-02 Thread R. A. Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


 Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:54:00 -0500
 To: Philodox Clips List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 From: R. A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [Clips] Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 http://online.wsj.com/article_print/SB113339543967610740.html

 The Wall Street Journal

 December 1, 2005

 Banks Seek Better Online-Security Tools
 New Software Adds Layers
  To Verify Users' Identities;
  Ease of Use Remains Worry
 By RIVA RICHMOND
 DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
 December 1, 2005; Page B4

 More banks, driven by rising online identity theft and regulators'
 concerns, are shopping for security technology to help ensure those logging
 into accounts are the customers they claim to be.

 But while banks want security that is stronger than standard user names and
 passwords, they also don't want the technology to turn off customers by
 diminishing the convenience of online banking.

 Software makers are aiming to help banks strike a tricky balance between
 security and convenience, with several, including Corillian Corp. and
 Entrust Inc., recently introducing systems that raise the bar for risky or
 suspect transactions. The software works behind the scenes to apply extra
 security measures when there is unusual or questionable activity -- say,
 account access from a cybercafe in Prague or a large money transfer that
 isn't a normal bill-payment routine.

 The emergence of these products reflects the industry's concerns that email
 identity-theft scams, called phishing, and hacker programs that steal
 consumers' account information could hurt online banking, which is valued
 by banks as a low-cost way of doing business.

 In the U.S., the Federal Financial Institutions Examination Council, a
 group that sets standards for banks, credit unions and thrifts, in October
 urged that online-banking security move beyond simple passwords by the end
 of next year. Its recommendation carries the force of regulation because
 banks' failure to comply would earn them black marks from bank examiners.

 Many of the new products would help banks respond to the FFIEC, which
 didn't endorse specific security technologies but encouraged banks to
 choose measures appropriate to the risk. Other suppliers of software for
 tightening security include closely held firms Cyota Inc., New York, and
 PassMark Security Inc., Menlo Park, Calif.

 The banks are being pushed to bring in stronger authentication, but match
 it to the risk of the transaction and to the user experience and their
 desires, said Chris Voice, a vice president at Entrust, of Addison, Texas.
 Authentication is a security measure for verifying a customer or
 transaction.

 Industry analysts think banks will employ several techniques to weigh risk
 and verify identities. One way is to halt any transactions from certain
 computers or countries with a high fraud risk. In addition to a user name
 and password, some of these new security systems add a fairly obscure
 personal question, such as What was your high-school mascot? Some also
 allow banks facing a suspicious transaction to send an extra four-digit
 security code for use online to a customer's cellphone.

 The idea is similar to credit-card-fraud systems that trigger phone calls
 to cardholders when they detect unusual activity, while letting the vast
 majority of transactions through without incident.

 Corillian, of Hillsboro, Ore., already provides the technology behind the
 online-banking operations of many banks and credit unions. Woodforest
 National Bank, which has 190 branches in Texas and North Carolina, is
 rolling out Corillian's security technology during the first half of 2006.
 Corillian also has sold the technology to three credit unions and says it
 is in talks with three of the top-10 U.S. banks.

 The key to keeping this channel open is keeping it secure, said Charles
 Manning, president and chief information officer of Woodforest, which
 operates most of its branches inside Wal-Mart stores.

 Corillian's Intelligent Authentication package, launched Oct. 25, tracks
 the behavior of online-banking customers and builds histories of their
 habits to create access signatures. Its files don't include personal
 information. But they do track the characteristics of the computers and
 Internet-service providers that a customer typically uses. It also records
 the normal geographic locations and the times of day a customer prefers to
 bank online, flagging exceptions for scrutiny.

 Meanwhile, security-software maker Entrust unveiled a major new version of
 its IdentityGuard product on Nov. 8 that offers a menu of user-verification
 methods banks can choose from to beef up security on transactions they deem
 risky. It has sold IdentityGuard to Miami-based Commercebank NA, a unit of
 Mercantil Servicios Financieros of Venezuela, and a number of European
 banks. European customers of Entrust's software