Re: What happened to X9.59?

2009-05-11 Thread Anne & Lynn Wheeler

On 05/11/09 06:06, Peter Gutmann wrote:

I was looking for information on this recently to update an old reference to
the DSTU version but it seems to have vanished, there's no information on it
online that I could find after about 2001 or so (apart from a reference to a
2006 version in a conference paper).  The ANSI web site claims that it doesn't
exist, stopping the series at X9.58.


x9 web site
http://www.x9.org/

"find & buy standards" URL from above:
http://www.techstreet.com/x9gate.tmpl

x9 series have passed "100" ... but no longer lists x9.59. to some extent x9.59 
went the way of some other payment technologies in the late 90s and early part of this 
decade ... when there was a big retrenching from hardware tokens and other more secure 
technologies for one reason or another ... some of it touched in this recent post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009g.html#62

my x9.59 related information
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#x959

there was this NACHA RFI from 1998
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/nacharfi.htm
and report mentioned here
http://internetcouncil.nacha.org/News/news.html
declaring success and then evaporating
http://internetcouncil.nacha.org/docs/ISAP-Pilot-Final.doc

in large part because of the rapidly spreading opinion that hardware tokens weren't 
practical in consumer market. I've discussed this more recently  (although 
cognitive dissonance with merchants & interchange fees played a role).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009f.html#7

hardware token issue also discussed in thread on this mailing list from two yrs 
ago:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm27.htm#34 The bank fraud blame game
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm27.htm#35 The bank fraud blame game
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm27.htm#38 The bank fraud blame game

and for slight topic drift ... this thread on "new standard for encrypting card 
data"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009g.html#25
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009g.html#63

--
40+yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970

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What happened to X9.59?

2009-05-11 Thread Peter Gutmann
I was looking for information on this recently to update an old reference to 
the DSTU version but it seems to have vanished, there's no information on it 
online that I could find after about 2001 or so (apart from a reference to a 
2006 version in a conference paper).  The ANSI web site claims that it doesn't 
exist, stopping the series at X9.58.

Peter.

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Re: x9.59

2003-09-09 Thread Anne & Lynn Wheeler
At 01:44 PM 9/9/2003 -0400, Ian Grigg wrote:
Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>
>  The result is X9.59 which addresses all the major
> exploits at both POS as well as internet (and not just credit, but debit,
> stored-value, ACH, etc ... as well).
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#x959
Lynn,

Whatever happened to x9.59?

Also, is there a single short summary description of what
x9.59 does?  I don't mean a bucket full of links to plough
through, I mean some sort of technical overview that wasn't
approved by the marketing department.
iang


look at:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#x959
and it has a pointer to the standards document at ANSI. I think there may 
be some discussion at the oct. x9 meeting about progressing x9.59 to ISO.

but slightly simpler description is the mapping of x9.59 to iso8583 
(basically the credit/debit network standards protocol) at:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/8583flow.htm

the above lists the x9.59 elements and the iso 8583 elements  and some 
mapping equivalence ... and how to carry the additional x9.59 values in an 
iso 8583 addenda field  so you can achieve end-to-end authentication 
 rather than truncated high integrity authentication at something like 
a boundary interface between the internet and the real payment 
infrastructure  show how x9.59 can operate in all payment card 
processing environments (not just internet) and be able to provide x9.59 
authentication on an end-to-end basis.

In this particular mapping between x9.59 and iso 8583 ... the original 
signed x9.59 object isn't carried end-to-end ... but there is a methodology 
defined for being able to reconstitute and verify the x9.59 object and the 
issuing financial institution.

The X9.59 standards document actual lists the ASN.1 encoding for the 
signing object (and therefor any reconstituted object)  ... although there 
has been investigation into a x9.59 "version number" for XML specification. 
One of the original issues for XML encoding specification was that there 
was no deterministic encoding rules for XML  allowing for an object to 
be mangled in transmission and then reconstituted for authentication.  This 
is something that FSTC
http://www.fstc.org/
did for FSML  the deterministic encoding rules to cover the scenario 
where a signed electronic check object was mangled for transmission thru 
the ACH network ... and then had to be reconstituted for signature 
authentication. Since then W3C has incorporated FSML into the xml signature 
specification work. some overview:.
http://www.echeck.org/overview/echecktech.html

The problem wasn't whether XML or ASN.1 was better encoding method ... the 
issue was that given that the signed string of bits were mangled during 
transmission and how to be reconstituted, there had to be identical, 
deterministic encoding rules at both the signing end and the authentication 
end. This was very close to what was used in the NACHA AADS trials ... 
reference at:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#aads

Although not in available document ... there was work mapping x9.59 
directly to ACH network (the message formats in ACH are different than the 
message formats in the payment card networks  actually many of the 
payment card networks ... both interchange and various acquiring networks 
... have frequently proprietary differences from the ISO 8583  although 
there is lots of recent work to achieve convergence). These are primary 
electronic electronic networks for payment transactions. There has also 
been some work mapping of x9.59 to wholesale networks, aka FEDWIRE, SWIFT, 
etc. The original X9.59 work was done in X9A which deals with retail 
standards. In the past there has been some differentiation between the 
retail and wholesale financial networks under the assumption that the 
values in the wholesale transactions were a lot larger and therefor 
required much higher level of security which, in turn, should cost 
significantly more. However, I think we managed to demonstrate in X9.59 a 
level of integrity that is as high as anything required for wholesale 
transactions at the same time being able to achieve a cost that was 
acceptable for retail transactions.

To be effective ... the standard deployment just about needs a hardware 
token that can be trusted to house the private key and perform the 
signature operation. My joke from 5-6 years ago was that I was going to 
take a $500 mil-spec part and cost reduce by it two orders of magnitude 
while at the same time increasing the security ... and cut the time & power 
requirements so that it could meet the transit gate elapsed time 
requirements in a ISO 14443 contactless configuration (the transit 
constraint model was basically the octopus sony/mitsubishi card used in HK 
transit system)..
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#aadsstraw

I needled the chip module guys on this subject at a talk I gave two years 
ago at th

x9.59

2003-09-09 Thread Ian Grigg
Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> 
>  The result is X9.59 which addresses all the major
> exploits at both POS as well as internet (and not just credit, but debit,
> stored-value, ACH, etc ... as well).
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#x959


Lynn,

Whatever happened to x9.59?

Also, is there a single short summary description of what
x9.59 does?  I don't mean a bucket full of links to plough
through, I mean some sort of technical overview that wasn't
approved by the marketing department.

iang

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X9.59 where is it?

2003-09-09 Thread Victor . Duchovni
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:

> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#x959
> One of the things addressed by X9.59 was not the elimination of the ability
> to harvest the merchant transaction file ... but to make the account
> numbers in the merchant transaction file useless for fraud. slightly
> related discussion of the "security proportional to risk" and the
> vulnerability represented by the merchant transaction file

Is X9.59 actually in use for consumer retail transactions anywhere?

-- 
Victor Duchovni
IT Security,
Morgan Stanley

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