Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...
On 2011-06-11 3:12 PM, James A. Donald wrote: On 2011-06-11 1:58 PM, Peter Gutmann wrote: I wouldn't call bitcoins digital cash. They're more like digital tulip bulbs, Misattribution, that was John Levine, not Peter Gutman. ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 02:16:55AM -, John Levine wrote: In article 021ccba9-9203-4896-8412-481b94595...@cs.columbia.edu you write: http://gcn.com/articles/2011/06/09/bitcoins-digital-currency-silk-road-charles-schumer-joe-manchin.aspx?s=gcndaily_100611 I wouldn't call bitcoins digital cash. They're more like digital tulip bulbs, or bearer shares of theglobe.com. Whatever they are, it's a self limiting problem since the bubble will burst soon enough. Unlike fiat currencies, algorithms assert limit of total volume. And the mint and transaction infrastructure is decentral, so there's no single point of control. These both are very useful properties. I don't expect Bitcoin to be it, but it is definitely a predecessor to a number of such currencies which will become practical both for machines and people. ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...
BitCoin has only one problem: maintenance of the relationship between unit BitCoin value and the material world (energy, as in KWh) is 'soft', it requires some sort of a volatile communal effort, which sets it for failure (as a counter example, the amount of Au atoms on this planet is rather independent from any communal effort.) The relationship between unit value and the material world needs to be fixed. It's just a matter of time. Then we may name it ButtCoin. We expect money to be a store of value, among a few other things. BitCoin has nothing in it that speaks to that goal, that I can see [0]. This anti-property would however make it more ideal for a bubble [1]. Quite how to fix that and retain the decentralised control aspect, I'm unsure. The essence of a contract is that someone delivers something to someone else; without that first party (which speaks to centralisation at some level) it is hard. ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Levine jo...@iecc.com wrote: Unlike fiat currencies, algorithms assert limit of total volume. And the mint and transaction infrastructure is decentral, so there's no single point of control. These both are very useful properties. Useful for something, but not useful for money. I can't help but note that the level of economic knowledge in the digital cash community is pitifully low, and much of what people think they know is absurd. OK, I bite - who has the knowledge? Is it the expert folks who have the US 14 trillion or so in debt? Or is it embodied in experts in other countries, such as Greece? [SNIP] Jeff ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...
;-) On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 6:29 PM, Jeffrey Walton noloa...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Levine jo...@iecc.com wrote: Unlike fiat currencies, algorithms assert limit of total volume. And the mint and transaction infrastructure is decentral, so there's no single point of control. These both are very useful properties. Useful for something, but not useful for money. I can't help but note that the level of economic knowledge in the digital cash community is pitifully low, and much of what people think they know is absurd. OK, I bite - who has the knowledge? Is it the expert folks who have the US 14 trillion or so in debt? Or is it embodied in experts in other countries, such as Greece? [SNIP] Jeff ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography -- Blog: http://off-the-wall-security.blogspot.com/ The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals. We *cause* accidents.-- Nathaniel Borenstein ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 3:13 PM, John Levine jo...@iecc.com wrote: (Anyone who thinks that a gold standard is better than what we have now, or that the supply of gold is fixed in any but a purely hypothetical sense, is either ignorant of economic history or shilling for gold speculators.) +1. A fiat currency with no capital controls and reasonably free trade is probably the best currency system yet. Details do matter though. It helps when the issuer doesn't inflate, for example. Still, the U.S. dollar has been that sort of currency since the 70s, and it's worked out rather well. (Which isn't to say it will continue, but if it doesn't, it won't be due to any flaws in this currency system.) ObCrypto: it would be interesting to figure out how to create a digital currency that has the characteristics of real money. One possibility is to set up a sufficiently credible central bank that can manage the supply, but I doubt that would work unless that central bank was a national central bank, which would make the digital money fully convertible with real money. A simple digital coin would be one with double spend detection, and blind signatures for anonymity. Double spend detection is a problem, because it requires online infrastructure, which then becomes a super-critical part of the economy, but I'm not sure how we can avoid it. The proof of computation idea is a total waste of precious energy (check the news, energy shortages are likely to be a common problem in Japan and Europe as a result of Fukushima, and probably elsewhere too). Another interesting model is ETFs, exchange traded mutual funds. They are tradable in arbitrarily small quantities, but only convertible to and from the underlying assets in large chunks by parties who have to register with the issuer. The trades are close to anonymous, fully so if you use an offshore bank, the conversions are not. The idea is that the conversions are done by arbitrageurs who track the prices of the asset and the ETF and buy or sell when they are sufficiently out of line. This works pretty well, and other than in chaotic markets it is quite rare for the values to get more than a fraction of a percent apart. The underlying asset can be anything with an easily determinable price such as a single currency or a basket of currencies. Good point. It's all in what's in that basket, and the rate of transactions (i.e., whether people use this thing). Nico -- ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] Quick review of US Air Force (!) Lightweight Portable *Security* Linux Distribution
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:55:10AM -0400, Thierry Moreau wrote: - Anybody has examples of source code distribution practical arrangements for other specialized Linux distributions? I don't quite see a problem with distributing source code for a specialized Linux distribution. For example, we do it for Owl: http://www.openwall.com/Owl/ In fact, our live CDs include the full source code and build environment. (It is even possible to rebuild the system from source while CD-booted.) As to integrity checking, we distribute *.mtree files and detached GPG signatures for those. These cover both the ISOs and source code trees available separately. mtree and gpg are part of Owl, so it is possible to verify downloads of updates, both binary and source. - Anyone else sees the relevance of the LPS basic ideas? If not, how do I make sure my SSH connection to my secure server is not hacked locally on my laptop given that my children could have had root access to it at least on one occasion? (OK, I could trust them more than the Air Force, but you should see the point.) It is definitely useful to be able to use a trusted copy of the OS, although at least in theory you need to consider firmware backdoors as well: http://www.alchemistowl.org/arrigo/Papers/Arrigo-Triulzi-PACSEC08-Project-Maux-II.pdf http://www.alchemistowl.org/arrigo/Papers/Arrigo-Triulzi-CANSEC10-Project-Maux-III.pdf Alexander ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
