Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Adam Back
Bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, and doesnt have to have the collapse and late joiner losers. If bitcoin does not lose favor - ie the user base grows and then maintains size of user base in the long term, then no one loses. I think in the current phase the deflation (currency increasing in

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Meredith L. Patterson
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:50 AM, John Levine jo...@iecc.com wrote: PS: For anyone who wants a crypto currency backed by gold, that's functionally equivalent to a gold ETF, of which there are several, such as ticker symbols IAU, GLD, GTU, SGOL, and AGOL.  They do what they do perfectly

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-13 2:50 PM, John Levine wrote: But that really has nothing to do with the crypto part. You can have crypto out the wazoo, and it's worth nothing unless there's an issuer in meatspace who will accept your crypto coins, cancel them, and hand you the agreed amount of money. But

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Paul Crowley
On 13/06/11 10:31, James A. Donald wrote: The difference was Fannie, Freddie, and the CRA. This is entirely off topic. Please drop it. -- __ \/ o\ Paul Crowley, p...@ciphergoth.org /\__/ http://www.ciphergoth.org/ ___ cryptography mailing list

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Danilo Gligoroski
Nicholas Bohm write: Now I find I can exchange a little over five bitcoins for a £50 Amazon gift certificate that Amazon seems happy to credit to my account. I see the example of an institution (organization, company, entity, ...) willing to happily credit the current value of

Re: [cryptography] Nothing to do with digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-13 3:33 PM, John Levine wrote: Until very late in the bubble, Fanny and Freddy bought only conventional prime fixed rate loans, so it was roaring along without their help In 1992, Fanny and Freddy got tasked with affordable housing for the poor, and immediately dropped their

[cryptography] Is BitCoin a triple entry system?

2011-06-13 Thread Ian G
On 13/06/11 12:56 PM, James A. Donald wrote: On 2011-06-12 8:57 AM, Ian G wrote: I wrote a paper about John Levine's observation of low knowledge, way back in 2000, called Financial Cryptography in 7 Layers. The sort of unstated thesis of this paper was that in order to understand this area you

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Ian G
On 13/06/11 5:54 PM, Adam Back wrote: Bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, and doesnt have to have the collapse and late joiner losers. If bitcoin does not lose favor - ie the user base grows and then maintains size of user base in the long term, then no one loses. Um, Adam, that's the very

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Adam Back
Bitcoin does not have to end with the pyramid scheme outcome - where it stalls and all those still holding any lose - so long as there remain people willing to exchange goods for bitcoin after the dust has settled. Anyway my point is even if the deployment phase is a wild ride, with some winners

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Nico Williams
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Nathan Loofbourrow njl...@gmail.com wrote: The good old market played a role here too. There are lots of investors whose risk profile dictates that they should be in safe investments, e.g. pension funds and old people. With the interest rates held on the floor,

[cryptography] Crypto-economics metadiscussion

2011-06-13 Thread Marsh Ray
I 'aint no self-appointed moderator of this list and I do find the subject of economics terribly interesting, but maybe it would make sense to willfully confine the scope of our discussion of Bitcoin and other virtual currencies to the crypto side of it. This list's previous incarnation had

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-13 11:55 PM, Ian G wrote: Um, Adam, that's the very definition of a pyramid scheme :) No-one need lose as long as the size of the user base grows, long term! If bitcoin stabilizes, no one loses. If a pyramid scheme stabilizes, last to invest loses.

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread James A. Donald
I was at ground zero of the crisis: Sunnyvale California. And every person I saw buying a seven hundred thousand dollar house was a cat eating no hablo english wetback with no regular job. On 2011-06-14 1:29 AM, Nico Williams wrote: First, there were plenty of middle class (and better off)

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-14 1:50 AM, Nathan Loofbourrow wrote: After a while you run out of big dumb mortgages, and we did. So the pressure was on to create more of them. Once everyone has a mortgage, or maybe two, you start lending to folks with a risk profile that wasn't so hot anymore. This happened in

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Jeffrey Walton
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:22 PM, James A. Donald jam...@echeque.com wrote: I was at ground zero of the crisis: Sunnyvale California. And every person I saw buying a seven hundred thousand dollar house was a cat eating no hablo english wetback with no regular job. On 2011-06-14 1:29 AM,

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread lodewijk andré de la porte
I get back from vacation and suddenly my inbox is filled with misconceptions. While this is supossed to be a fairly technical mailinglist (about cryptography) it seems clear many people haven't quite understood bitcoins' workings. Let me break it down: * With a private/public key combination you

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread James A. Donald
ObCrypto: sorry, got nothing. This crisis has a lot to do with the fact that Bitcoin is doing well, and suggests demand for other cryptographic solutions. As orthodox places to put your money and perform transactions are increasingly suspect, people are now willing to consider unorthodox

Re: [cryptography] Crypto-economics metadiscussion

2011-06-13 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-14 2:31 AM, Marsh Ray wrote: I 'aint no self-appointed moderator of this list and I do find the subject of economics terribly interesting, but maybe it would make sense to willfully confine the scope of our discussion of Bitcoin and other virtual currencies to the crypto side of it.

Re: [cryptography] Is BitCoin a triple entry system?

2011-06-13 Thread Zooko O'Whielacronx
Also related, Eric Hughes posted about something he called Encrypted Open Books on 1993-08-16. The idea was to allow an auditor to confirm the correctness of the accounts without being able to see the details of people's accounts. Regards, Zooko ___

Re: [cryptography] Crypto-economics metadiscussion

2011-06-13 Thread Steven Bellovin
Well, obviously, bitcoin is succeeding because the financial crisis has caused loss of trust in government approved and regulated solutions. Obviously? I do not think this word means what you think it means. --Steve Bellovin, https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb

Re: [cryptography] Crypto-economics metadiscussion

2011-06-13 Thread Peter Gutmann
Marsh Ray ma...@extendedsubset.com writes: I 'aint no self-appointed moderator of this list and I do find the subject of economics terribly interesting, but maybe it would make sense to willfully confine the scope of our discussion of Bitcoin and other virtual currencies to the crypto side of