Re: [Forwarded] RealID: How to become an unperson.
Perry Metzger wrote: So, the next time one of your friends in Germany asks why the crazy Americans think ID cards and such are a bad thing, remember my father, and remember all the people like him who fled to the US over the last couple hundred years and who left children that still remember such things, whether from China or North Korea or Germany or Spain or Russia or Yugoslavia or Chile or lots of other places. And one of those places is the US itself. African-Americans have no trouble envisioning scenarios in which mandatory IDs and universal surveillance could be a problem. Japanese-Americans don't have to think very hard to remember that banking regulation can also be used to freeze bank accounts, or that postal and census data can be used by the Army to put a particular ethnic group in concentration camps. Followers of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not believe that vicious religious persecution in the US is an impossibility. Peter - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Forwarded] RealID: How to become an unperson.
* Perry E. Metzger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But nevertheless, I do not understand why americans are so afraid of an ID card. Perhaps I can explain why I am. I do not trust governments. I've inherited this perspective. My grandfather sent his children abroad from Speyer in Germany just after the ascension of Adolf Hitler in the early 1930s -- his neighbors thought he was crazy, but few of them survived the coming events. My father was sent to Alsace, but he stayed too long in France and ended up being stuck there after the occupation. If it were not for forged papers, he would have died. (He had a most amusing story of working as an electrician rewiring a hotel used as office space by the Gestapo in Strasbourg -- his forged papers were apparently good enough that no one noticed.) Ultimately, he and other members of the family escaped France by illegally crossing the border into Switzerland. (I put illegally in quotes because I don't believe one has any moral obligation to obey a law like that, especially since it would leave you dead if you obeyed.) Anyway, if the governments of the time had actually had access to modern anti-forgery techniques, I might never have been born. I share your general concern, but it's not the ID cards which worry me. After all, forgeable passports are only a very, very weak form of defense in an age of non-invasive biometric applications which operate in real-time. (I know, we aren't quite there yet, but we're getting close.) My concern is that our government is building infrastructure for monitoring extremist citizens, trying very hard to interdict all extremist propaganda. The rationale behind that is the assumption that most Germans are still latent nazis. (I'm not sure if this is really the case, but it seems that anti-democratic feelings are rather widespread.) Unfortunately, this monitoring infrastructure covers the whole population by design, and in case of a coup d'etat, it can be easily abused by the perpetrators to make sure that they stay in power. In other words, this approach is not fail-safe. I find it rather unsettling that our politicians seem to be completely unaware of this risk. - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Forwarded] RealID: How to become an unperson.
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (currently in Boston, MA, after giving fingerprints at the airport immigration) And you may have then noticed the interesting effect; in Germany we have mandatory cards - carry them round always - but virtually have to show them. And only to officials often. In the US they have no official card - yet even the lowest clerk at the blockbuster video asks for one... Dw. - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Forwarded] RealID: How to become an unperson.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But nevertheless, I do not understand why americans are so afraid of an ID card. Perhaps I can explain why I am. I do not trust governments. I've inherited this perspective. My grandfather sent his children abroad from Speyer in Germany just after the ascension of Adolf Hitler in the early 1930s -- his neighbors thought he was crazy, but few of them survived the coming events. My father was sent to Alsace, but he stayed too long in France and ended up being stuck there after the occupation. If it were not for forged papers, he would have died. (He had a most amusing story of working as an electrician rewiring a hotel used as office space by the Gestapo in Strasbourg -- his forged papers were apparently good enough that no one noticed.) Ultimately, he and other members of the family escaped France by illegally crossing the border into Switzerland. (I put illegally in quotes because I don't believe one has any moral obligation to obey a law like that, especially since it would leave you dead if you obeyed.) Anyway, if the governments of the time had actually had access to modern anti-forgery techniques, I might never have been born. To you, ID cards are a nice way to keep things orderly. To me, they are a potential death sentence. Most Europeans seem to see government as the friendly, nice set of people who keep the trains running on time and who watch out for your interests. A surprisingly large fraction of Americans are people or the descendants of people who experienced the institution of government as the thing that tortured their friends to death, or gassed them, or stole all their money and nearly starved them to death, etc. Hundreds of millions of people died at the hands of their own governments in the 20th century, and many of the people that escaped from such horrors moved here. They view things like ID cards and mandatory registry of residence with the local police as the way that the government rounded up their friends and relatives so they could be killed. I do not wish to argue about which view is correct. Perhaps I am wrong and Government really is the large friendly group of people that are there to help you. Perhaps the cost/benefit analysis of ID cards and such makes us look silly. I'm not addressing the question of whether my view is right here -- I'm just trying to explain the psychological mindset that would make someone think ID cards are a very bad idea. So, the next time one of your friends in Germany asks why the crazy Americans think ID cards and such are a bad thing, remember my father, and remember all the people like him who fled to the US over the last couple hundred years and who left children that still remember such things, whether from China or North Korea or Germany or Spain or Russia or Yugoslavia or Chile or lots of other places. Perry - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Re: [Forwarded] RealID: How to become an unperson.
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: your ID card. Exactly that circular problem as mentioned in the posting. But when I explained that circular problem, they checked by phone with the town's registry office and gave me the copy of the birth certificate without an ID card to solve the problem. While I am glad it worked out for you, I somehow doubt that the workers of the once great city of New York would be quite as accomodating :-/ Fortunately, I found a way around the problem that didn't force me to try and find out though! But nevertheless, I do not understand why americans are so afraid of an ID card. It has by far more advantages than disadvantages, and This is probably a uniquely american thing - culturally we are a bunch of loners, who all believe that the government has no *right* to identify or otherwise monitor us. As a scrappy bunch of loners with attitude problems, the pros vs. cons of The Card really never make it to the equation: as a people, most of us just naturally have a Time May reaction to authority in general and government authority in particular. Personally, I'd rather go back to the old paper license I used to have in the 80's that had no pic and was not usable as ID, but I know it isn't going to happen. Sigh... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0xBD4A95BF Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty. Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Forwarded] RealID: How to become an unperson.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But nevertheless, I do not understand why americans are so afraid of an ID card. It has by far more advantages than disadvantages, and actually the US driving license is already a kind of ID card. Let me refer you to a National Academies report (I was on the committee): Stephen T. Kent and Lynette Millett, ed. IDs -- Not That Easy: Questions About Nationwide Identity Systems. National Academies Press, 2002. http://books.nap.edu/html/id_questions/ Briefly, the report notes that there are a very large number of questions that need to be answered about any such system before it's even possible to discuss it intelligently. And whenever I enter the US, I have to give the fingerprints of my index fingers and they take a picture of me. That's worse than an ID card. Agreed. --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Forwarded] RealID: How to become an unperson.
On Tue, Jul 05, 2005 at 11:26:54PM -0400, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: Let me refer you to a National Academies report (I was on the committee): Stephen T. Kent and Lynette Millett, ed. IDs -- Not That Easy: Questions About Nationwide Identity Systems. National Academies Press, 2002. http://books.nap.edu/html/id_questions/ Briefly, the report notes that there are a very large number of questions that need to be answered about any such system before it's even possible to discuss it intelligently. Thanks for the hint, but I am too busy to read it in detail before next week. However, there is a funny thing I need to mention: - In Germany we have an ID card and I have it in my pocket all the time. But actually it is rarely used, I do need it not more than maybe three times a year. At the moment I can't remember to have it used within the last two years, except for in my job when entering high security areas and some protected company premises. But rarely in private life. I know one shop where they do ask for when paying with a card. - In the USA they say they don't have ID cards. But whereever I walk through the streets of cities at the east- or westcoast, they all ask me for picture IDs. Some years ago I couldn't even enter a night club without a picture ID, and in every supermarket they have signs that they don't sell alcohol or cigarettes without picture ID (besides the fact that I neither drink nor smoke). Even in some hotels and gas stations they ask for a picture ID. Isn't that ridiculous? In the USA where they allegedly don't have ID cards you are approx. more than 20 times as often asked for a picture ID than in Germany where we have ID cards officially. Last November I attended an Anti-Spam-Summit at FTC in Washington DC. As usual they were checking for metal in the clothes, x-raying bags, and (*surprise*) asking for a picture ID. Someone didn't have a driving license. They accepted his WalMart Customer Card as a picture ID. Isn't that scary? reards Hadmut - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Forwarded] RealID: How to become an unperson.
Isn't that ridiculous? In the USA where they allegedly don't have ID cards you are approx. more than 20 times as often asked for a picture ID than in Germany where we have ID cards officially. True. But funny, isn't it: I always enjoy looking at the most puzzled facial expression of some twenty-odd year old selling beer at a football game trying to understand my german passport. They give up eventually, selling me what I wanted... :-) (asking me for an ID is absolutely ludicrous in the first place since I've been looking older than 21 for decades now...) Cheers, Stefan. --- Stefan Kelm Security Consultant Secorvo Security Consulting GmbH Ettlinger Straße 12-14, D-76137 Karlsruhe Tel. +49 721 255171-304, Fax +49 721 255171-100 [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.secorvo.de/ --- PGP Fingerprint 87AE E858 CCBC C3A2 E633 D139 B0D9 212B - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Forwarded] RealID: How to become an unperson.
--- Jonathan Thornburg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - In Germany we have an ID card and I have it in my pocket all the time. But actually it is rarely used, I do need it not more than maybe three times a year. [[...]] I think this has a lot to do with the fact that Germany and the US have different standards of liability. The legal drinking age in Germany is 16 for beer and wine and 18 for distilled alcoholic beverages. A minor under the age of 16 may consume alcohol with parental consent, as long as that parent or a legal guardian is present. A violation is a mere misdemeanor and may result in a fine but, in reality, hardly ever does. The consequences of selling alcohol to a person who is not of legal age are far more severe in the US. Aside from losing your liquor license (and hence very likely your main source of income), you can expect both, criminal prosecution and a civil suit, in most places. That's why establishments in the US err on the side of caution and card their customers. Most bars, liquor stores and gas stations even have zero tolerance policies. It's not unusual for a twenty-something year old to be carded for a pack of cigarettes or a single beer can. People would never put up with something like that in Germany. Another factor is that the German ID card is mainly used by government agencies. There are severe restrictions for non-government uses. Private businesses may, for instance, not use the unique ID numbers as identifiers or store them in a database. That makes them pretty much useless for most non-official purposes. In the US, businesses are pretty much free to request your SSN whenever they please. As a Canadian living and working in Germany, my legal ID card is my (Canadian) passport. (I don't have a German (or Canadian!) driver's license.) When I bought a cellphone calling plan the cellphone store asked for this (I guess the police want to make sure an identifyable person can be found for each cellphone number). They actually have to verify your identity. There is a ruling from RegTP, which is a governing body in many ways similar to the FCC, that stipulates that carriers have to retain the complete name, date and place of birth and current address of anyone who buys a GSM SIM card. Failure to do so usually results in hefty fines. That's why the carriers make sure that the ruling is actually enforced. On a slightly unrelated note: contrary to popular belief, there is no German law that requires you to have your ID card or passport on your person. You are required to give your name and date of birth to a law enforcement officer or authorized agent of the state - but only upon request. They may even take you into custody until they can positively verify your identity but you do have to carry ID. It was clear from our conversation that very few (if any) Canadians had ever bought cellphone calling plans from this employee before. (Not surprisingly -- there aren't that many other Canadians living or travelling here.) Indeed, I rather suspect mine may have been the first Canadian passport this particular employee had ever seen. That's indeed quite likely. The original purpose of the RegTP's ruling was to discourage theft though. There usually is little to no resistance to giving up your personal data to the government in Germany. In fact, there's federal law that requires anyone residing in the country to keep their current address on file with their county's record office. And this seems perfectly normal to most Germans. If Congress tried to pass a law that required US citizens to register their current address with the federal government, people would scream bloody murder (despite the fact that it would be easy to get anyone's address from the IRS, individual state's DMV databases or Google, for that matter). A terrorist, however, would have no reason to register their real address or to show a real ID card when purchasing a cell phone. After all, there are plenty of easier options available (theft, eBay, fake ID, using public pay phones, etc). Exactly the same applies to driver's licenses. A terrorist could just fake one or use fake documents to obtain a real one. I think it's safe to assume that if high school graduates have the means to obtain a decent fake ID, terrorists do as well. The only way to tell if a driver's license is real or not is by checking if the data on it matches what's in the DMV's database. And that doesn't help if a terrorist just decides to fake a birth certificate and marriage license. I would be surprised if your average county clerk or DMV worker actually managed to check if a document that's maybe fourty years old is in fact the real deal. -J. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - The Cryptography Mailing
[Forwarded] RealID: How to become an unperson.
I'm forwarding this article, originally from the Cypherpunks mailing list (I saw it on Dave Farber's Interesting People) because I find the security implications important. HOWEVER, I'm warning in advance that I'm not going to forward a lot of followups, especially if they are unoriginal and/or contain lots of ranting language and little content. (I'm mildly uncomfortable with the original, actually, because I prefer light to heat, but it makes a very interesting point...) From: [apparently] J.A. Terranson Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 6:34 PM Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: The Nazification Of America (Show Me Your Papers - Day 1) For those of you who may have missed it, today was the first day of the new Real ID Act, a/k/a, the American Nazification Papers Act. I wouldn't have know myself except that I recently moved, and wanted to exchange my current Illinois drivers license for a Missouri one. Not so fast... You have a passport? No, I don't travel. A certified copy of your original birth certificate? Haven't had one since I was born, fifty years ago. And since I was born about 1500 miles from here, getting one is no small task. Too bad. Your old license is invalid and you can't get another one in any state, starting today, without at least one of the two documents, PLUS secondary ID to back them up. Even though I have a current license, and even though I am in their system as having held a valid Missouri license for 15+ years, photo included, none of it is good enough. OK, so I have no choice, I go to the post office to get a Passport - same thing. Fine, I'll just order the birth certificate and get it over with, right? Wrong. New York wants affirmative proof of identity for a copy now: passport or your [missing] original birth certificate. Anyone else see a circular problem here? I need a new birth certificate because the old one was lost about forty years ago. And I don't have a passport to prove my identity. Get your parents to testify who you are, and make sure they bring their passports. They are both dead. Sorry Sir, I'm afraid we won't be able to help you then. click Durbin was right. And he didn't even scratch the surface! Anyone who thinks this Real ID Act is about getting false ID out of the hands of The Terrorists is an idiot: they will simply print their own drivers licenses - this is about forcing the regular population to get used to intrastate passports. This act essentially forces you to have a passport for everyday things like banking, car purchases and certain repairs, checks, etc. We have literally allowed the Nazification to begin, and we've even welcomed it with eager open arms - all in the name of Fighting Terror. Crystal clear, pure unadulterated bullshit. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0xBD4A95BF - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Forwarded] RealID: How to become an unperson.
Don't laugh. This is exactly the problem I had with my german identity card. In Germany, you are required to possess either an identity card or a passport once you reach the age of 16. If you're younger you can just have a children's passport in case you need for travelling. Usually applying for an ID card is not a problem at all. For reasons far beyond cryptography my father chose an unusual given name for me, one that was usual in around the 8th-10th century. He named me Hadmut. Most people in Germany have never heard that name before and don't believe, that this name exists. There is another name, Hartmut, which is ethymologically different, but sounds similar. Therefore, most people assume that my name is just misspelled and would correctly be Hartmut. When we moved to a different town some years ago, someone made a mistake in the municipal register, and entered 'Hartmut' instead of 'Hadmut', obviously because he or she believed it was misspelled. When I applied for an ID card after my 16th birthday, they told me that they can't issue one, because my children's passport said my given name is 'Hadmut', while the register said that I am 'Hartmut'. Whoever I decided to be, I would not receive an ID card before I could prove which of both I am. They asked me to bring a certified copy of my birth certificate. For reasons even more beyond cryptography, that copy was lost years ago. So I had to go to the registry office where I was born to get another copy. Fortunately, this was just 20 minutes by bicycle away. For privacy reasons, you can't just go to a registry office and ask for anyone's birth certificate. You have to proof your identity - with your ID card. Exactly that circular problem as mentioned in the posting. But when I explained that circular problem, they checked by phone with the town's registry office and gave me the copy of the birth certificate without an ID card to solve the problem. But nevertheless, I do not understand why americans are so afraid of an ID card. It has by far more advantages than disadvantages, and actually the US driving license is already a kind of ID card. And whenever I enter the US, I have to give the fingerprints of my index fingers and they take a picture of me. That's worse than an ID card. Remember the PGP signing party at the 1994 IETF meeting in San Jose? Several participants who had never seen me before did sign my PGP key after I showed them my german ID card (including Perry). Funny side effect: Since most americans don't know that we have ID cards in germany the card is almost always believed to be a driving license in the US. regards Hadmut (currently in Boston, MA, after giving fingerprints at the airport immigration) - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
