Re: Five Theses on Security Protocols
On Mon, Aug 02, 2010 at 11:29:32AM -0400, Adam Fields wrote: On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 12:32:39PM -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: [...] 3 Any security system that demands that users be educated, i.e. which requires that users make complicated security decisions during the course of routine work, is doomed to fail. [...] I would amend this to say which requires that users make _any_ security decisions. It's useful to have users confirm their intentions, or notify the user that a potentially dangerous action is being taken. It is not useful to ask them to know (or more likely guess, or even more likely ignore) whether any particular action will be harmful or not. But users have to help you establish the context. Have you ever been prompted about invalid certs when navigating to pages where you couldn't have cared less about the server's ID? On the web, when does security matter? When you fill in a field on a form? Maybe you're just submitting an anonymous comment somewhere. But certainly not just when making payments. I believe the user has to be involved somewhat. The decisions the user has to make need to be simple, real simple (e.g., never about whether to accept a defective cert). But you can't treat the user as a total ignoramus unless you're also willing to severely constrain what the user can do (so that you can then assume that everything the user is doing requires, say, mutual authentication with peer servers). Nico -- - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Five Theses on Security Protocols
On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:20:01 -0500 Nicolas Williams nicolas.willi...@oracle.com wrote: But users have to help you establish the context. Have you ever been prompted about invalid certs when navigating to pages where you couldn't have cared less about the server's ID? On the web, when does security matter? When you fill in a field on a form? Maybe you're just submitting an anonymous comment somewhere. But certainly not just when making payments. I believe the user has to be involved somewhat. The decisions the user has to make need to be simple, real simple (e.g., never about whether to accept a defective cert). But you can't treat the user as a total ignoramus unless you're also willing to severely constrain what the user can do (so that you can then assume that everything the user is doing requires, say, mutual authentication with peer servers). There are decisions, and there are decisions. If, for example (and this is really just an example, not a worked design), your browser authenticates the bank website using a USB attached hardware token containing both parties credentials, which also refuses to work for any other web site, it is very difficult for the user to do anything to give away the store, and the user has very little scope for decision making (beyond, say, deciding whether to make a transfer once they're authenticated). This is a big contrast to the current situation, where the user needs to figure out whether they're typing their password in to the correct web site etc., and can be phished into giving up their credentials. You can still be attacked even in an ideal situation, of course. For example, you could still follow instructions from con men telling you to wire money to them. However, the trick is to change the system from one where the user must be constantly on the alert lest they do something wrong, like typing in a password to the wrong web site, to one in which the user has to go out of their way to do something wrong, like actively making the decision to send a bad guy all their money. Perry -- Perry E. Metzgerpe...@piermont.com - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Five Theses on Security Protocols
On 08/01/2010 01:51 PM, Jeffrey I. Schiller wrote: I remember them well. Indeed these protocols, presumably you are talking about Secure Electronic Transactions (SET), were a major improvement over SSL, but adoption was killed by not only failing the give the merchants a break on the fraud surcharge, but also requiring the merchants to pick up the up-front cost of upgrading all of their systems to use these new protocols. And there was the risk that it would turn off consumers because it required the consumers setup credentials ahead of time. So if a customer arrived at my SET protected store-front, they might not be able to make a purchase if they had not already setup their credentials. Many would just go to a competitor that doesn't require SET rather then establish the credentials. SET specification predated these (as also internet specific, from the mid-90s, went on currently with x9a10 financial standards work ... which had requirement to preserve the integrity for *ALL* retail payments) ... the decade past efforts were later were much simpler and practical ... and tended to be various kinds of something you have authentication. I'm unaware of any publicity and/or knowledge about these payment products (from a decade ago) outside the payment industry and select high volume merchants. The mid-90s, PKI/certificate-based specifications tended to hide behind a large amount of complexity ... and provide no effective additional benefit over above SSL (aka with all the additional complexity ... did little more than hide the transaction during transit on the internet). They also would strip all the PKI gorp off at the Internet boundary (because of the 100 times payload size and processing bloat that the certificate processing represented) and send the transaction thru the payment network with just a flag indicating that certificate processing had occurred (end-to-end security was not feasible). Various past posts mentioning the 100 times payload size and processing bloat that certificates added to typical payment transactions http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subpubkey.html#bloat In the time-frame of some of the pilots, there were then presentation by payment network business people at ISO standards meetings that they were seeing transactions come thru the network with the certificate processed flag on ... but could prove that no certificate processing actually occurred (there was financial motivation to lie since turning the flag on lowered the interchange fee). The certificate processing overhead also further increased the merchant processing overhead ... in large part responsible for the low uptake ... even with some benefit of lowered interchange fee. The associations looked at providing additional incentive (somewhat similar to more recent point-of-sale, hardware token incentives in europe), effectively changing the burden of proof in dispute (rather than the merchant having to prove the consumer was at fault, the consumer would have to prove they weren't at fault; of course this would have met with some difficulty in the US with regard to regulation-E). Old past thread interchange with members of that specification team regarding the specification was (effectively) never intended to do more than hide the transaction during transnmission: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#norep5 non-repudiation, was re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards aka high-overhead and convoluted, complex processing of the specification provided little practical added benefit over and above what was already being provided by SSL. oblique reference to that specification in recent post in this thread regarding having done both a PKI-operation benchmark (using BSAFE library) profile as well as business benefit profile of the specification (when it was initially published ... before any operational pilots): http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010l.html#59 A mighty fortress is our PKI with regard specifically to BSAFE processing bloat referenced in the above ... there is folklore that one of the people, working on the specification, admitted to a adding a huge number of additional PKI-operations (and message interchanges) to the specification ... effectively for no other reason than the added complexity and use of PKI-operations. -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Five Theses on Security Protocols
On 1/08/10 9:08 PM, Peter Gutmann wrote: John Levinejo...@iecc.com writes: Geotrust, to pick the one I use, has a warranty of $10K on their cheap certs and $150K on their green bar certs. Scroll down to the bottom of this page where it says Protection Plan: http://www.geotrust.com/resources/repository/legal/ It's not clear to me how much this is worth, since it seems to warrant mostly that they won't screw up, e.g., leak your private key, and they'll only pay to the party that bought the certificate, not third parties that might have relied on it. A number of CAs provide (very limited) warranty cover, but as you say it's unclear that this provides any value because it's so locked down that it's almost impossible to claim on it. Although distasteful, this is more or less essential. The problem is best seen like this: take all the potential relying parties for a large site / large CA, and multiply that by the damages in (hypothetically) fat-ass class action suit. Think phishing, or an MD5 crunch, or a random debian code downsizing. What results is a Very Large Number (tm). By fairly standard business processes one ends up at the sad but inevitable principle: the CA sets expected liabilities to zero And must do so. Note that there is a difference between expected liabilities and liabilities stated in some document. I use the term expected in the finance sense (c.f. Net Present Value calculations). In practice, this is what could be called best practices, to the extent that I've seen it. http://www.iang.org/papers/open_audit_lisa.html#rlo says the same thing in many many pages, and shows how CAcert does it. Does anyone know of someone actually collecting on this? I've never heard of anyone collecting, but I wish I had (heard). Could an affected third party sue the cert owner In theory, yes. This is expected. In some sense, the certificate's name might be interpreted as suggesting that because the name is validated, then you can sue that person. However, I'd stress that's a theory. See above paper for my trashing of that, What's in a Name? at an individual level. I'd speculate that the problem will be some class action suit because of the enourmous costs involved. who can then claim against the CA to recover the loss? If the cause of loss is listed in the documentation . . . Is there any way that a relying party can actually make this work, or is the warranty cover more or less just for show? We are facing Dan Geer's disambiguation problem: The design goal for any security system is that the number of failures is small but non-zero, i.e., N0. If the number of failures is zero, there is no way to disambiguate good luck from spending too much. Calibration requires differing outcomes. Maybe money can buy luck ;) iang - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Five Theses on Security Protocols
On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 12:32:39PM -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: [...] 3 Any security system that demands that users be educated, i.e. which requires that users make complicated security decisions during the course of routine work, is doomed to fail. [...] I would amend this to say which requires that users make _any_ security decisions. It's useful to have users confirm their intentions, or notify the user that a potentially dangerous action is being taken. It is not useful to ask them to know (or more likely guess, or even more likely ignore) whether any particular action will be harmful or not. -- - Adam -- If you liked this email, you might also like: Some iPad apps I like -- http://workstuff.tumblr.com/post/680301206 Sous Vide Black Beans -- http://www.aquick.org/blog/2010/07/28/sous-vide-black-beans/ Sous Vide Black Beans -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields/4838987109/ fields: Readdle turns 3: Follow @readdle, RT to win an #iPad. $0.99 for any ap... -- http://twitter.com/fields/statuses/20072241887 -- ** I design intricate-yet-elegant processes for user and machine problems. ** Custom development project broken? Contact me, I can help. ** Some of what I do: http://workstuff.tumblr.com/post/70505118/aboutworkstuff [ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience [ http://www.morningside-analytics.com ] .. Latest Venture [ http://www.confabb.com ] Founder - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Five Theses on Security Protocols
minor addenda about speeds feeds concerning the example of mid-90s payment protocol specification that had enormous PKI/certificate bloat ... and SSL. The original SSL security was predicated on the user understanding the relationship between the webserver they thought they were talking to, and the corresponding URL. They would enter that URL into the browser ... and the browser would then establish that the URL corresponded to the webserver being talked to (both parts were required in order to create an environment where the webserver you thot you were talking to, was, in fact, the webserver you were actually talking to). This requirement was almost immediately violated when merchant servers found that using SSL for the whole operation cost them 90-95% of their thruput. As a result, the merchants dropped back to just using SSL for the payment part and having a user click on a check-out/payment button. The (potentially unvalidated, counterfeit) webserver now provides the URL ... and SSL has been reduced to just validating that the URL corresponds to the webserver being talked to (or validating that the webserver being talke d to, is the webserver that it claims to be; i.e. NOT validating that the webserver is the one you think you are talking to). Now, the backend of the SSL payment process was SSL connection between the webserver and a payment gateway (sat on the internet and acted as gateway to the payment networks). Moderate to heavy load, avg. transaction elapsed time (at payment gateway, thru payment network) round-trip was under 1/3rd of second. Avg. roundtrip at merchant servers could be a little over 1/3rd of second (depending on internet connection between the webserver and the payment gateway). I've referenced before doing BSAFE benchmarks for the PKI/certificate bloated payment specification ... and using a speeded up BSAFE library ... the people involved in the bloated payment specification claimed the benchmark numbers were 100 times too slow (apparently believing that standard BSAFE library at the time ran nearly 1000 times faster than it actually did). When pilot code (for the enormously bloated PKI/certificate specification) was finally available, using BSAFE library (speedup enhancements had been incorporated into standard distribution) ... dedicated pilot demos for transaction round trip took nearly minute elapsed time ... effectively all of it was BSAFE computations (using dedicated computers doing nothing else). Merchants that found using SSL for the whole consumer interaction would have required ten to twenty times the number of computers ... to handle equivalent non-SSL load ... were potentially being faced with needing hundreds of additional computers to handle just the BSAFE computational load (for the mentioned extremely PKI/certificate bloated payment specification) ... and still wouldn't be able to perform the transaction anywhere close to the elapsed time of the implementation being used with SSL. -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Five Theses on Security Protocols
On Sun, Aug 01, 2010 at 11:20:51PM +1200, Peter Gutmann wrote: But, if you query an online database, how do you authenticate its answer? If you use a key for that or SSL certificate, I see a chicken-and-egg problem. What's your threat model? My threat model is practice. I assume Perry assumed that you have some pre-established trust relationship with the online database. However, I do not see myself having much of those. Yes, my browser comes preloaded with a set of root certificates, but Verisign is as much a third party to me as any SSL protected website I want to visit. Anyway, suppose we do all trust Verisign. Then everybody needs its public key on their computers to safely communicate with it. How is this public key distributed? Just like those preloaded root certs in the browser? What if their key gets compromised? How do we revoke that key and get a new one? We still have all the same problems with the public key of our root of trust as we have with long-lived certificates. Perry says we should do online checks in such a case. So which online database can tell us if Verisign's public key is still good? Do we need multiple trusted online databases who can vouch for each other, and hope not all of them fail simultaneously? Another issue with online verification is the increase in traffic. Would Verisign like it if they get queried for a significant fraction of all the SSL connections that are made by all users in the world? -- Met vriendelijke groet / with kind regards, Guus Sliepen g...@sliepen.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Five Theses on Security Protocols
corollary to security proportional to risk is parameterized risk management ... where variety of technologies with varying integrity levels can co-exist within the same infrastructure/framework. transactions exceeding particularly technology risk/integrity threshold may still be approved given various compensating processes are invoked (allows for multi-decade infrastructure operation w/o traumatic dislocation moving from technology to technology as well as multi-technology co-existence). in the past I had brought this up to the people defining V3 extensions ... early in their process ... and they offered to let me do the work defining a V3 integrity level field. My response was why bother with stale, static information when real valued operations would use much more capable dynamic, realtime, online process. -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Five Theses on Security Protocols
Nice theses. I'm looking forward to the other 94. The first one is a nice summary of why DKIM might succeed in e-mail security where S/MIME failed. (Succeed as in, people actually use it.) 2 A third party attestation, e.g. any certificate issued by any modern CA, is worth exactly as much as the maximum liability of the third party for mistakes. If the third party has no liability for mistakes, the certification is worth exactly nothing. All commercial CAs disclaim all liability. Geotrust, to pick the one I use, has a warranty of $10K on their cheap certs and $150K on their green bar certs. Scroll down to the bottom of this page where it says Protection Plan: http://www.geotrust.com/resources/repository/legal/ It's not clear to me how much this is worth, since it seems to warrant mostly that they won't screw up, e.g., leak your private key, and they'll only pay to the party that bought the certificate, not third parties that might have relied on it. R's, John - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Five Theses on Security Protocols
Perry E. Metzger pe...@piermont.com writes: Inspired by recent discussion, these are my theses, which I hereby nail upon the virtual church door: Are we allowed to play peanut gallery for this? 1 If you can do an online check for the validity of a key, there is no need for a long-lived signed certificate, since you could simply ask a database in real time whether the holder of the key is authorized to perform some action. Based on the ongoing discussion I've now had, both on-list and off, about blacklist-based key validity checking [0], I would like to propose an addition: The checking should follow the credit-card authorised/declined model, and not be based on blacklists (a.k.a. the second dumbest idea in computer security, see http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/editorials/dumb/). (Oh yes, for a laugh, have a look at the X.509 approach to doing this. It's eighty-seven pages long, and that's not including the large number of other RFCs that it includes by reference: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5055). The signed certificate is completely superfluous. This is, I suspect, the reason for the vehement opposition to any kind of credit-card style validity checking of keys, if you were to introduce it, it would make both certificates and the entities that issue them superfluous. Peter. [0] It's kinda scary that it's taking this much debate to try and convince people that blacklists are not a valid means of dealing with arbitrarily delegatable capabilities. - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Five Theses on Security Protocols
Usability engineering requires empathy. Isn't it interesting that nerds built themselves a system, SSH, that mostly adheres to Perry's theses? We nerds have empathy for ourselves. But when it comes to a system for other people, we suddenly lose all empathy and design a system that ignores Perry's theses. (In an alternative scenario, given the history of X.509, we can imagine that PKI's woes are due not to nerd un-empathy, but to government/military/hierarchy-lover un-empathy. Even in that scenario, nerd cooperation is necessary.) The irony is, normal people and nerds need systems with the same properties, for the same reasons. - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
