Re: Photos of an FBI tracking device found by a suspect
On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 05:45:16PM -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > On Fri, 8 Oct 2010 16:13:13 -0500 Nicolas Williams > wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 11:21:16AM -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > > > My question: if someone plants something in your car, isn't it > > > your property afterwards? > > > > If you left a wallet in someone's car, isn't it still yours? > > Yes. However, that's an accident. If you deliberately leave a package > on someone's doorstep, they then own the contents. (In fact, if > someone mails you something, US law is very clear that it is yours.) I covered that, didn't I? > I'd be interested in hearing what a lawyer thinks. Indeed, but I'm pretty sure the FBI wouldn't lose that question. If the surveillance subject said "it's mine now" they could probably arrest him, and the legal question can get settled later, possibly in a protracted appeals battle that would likely ultimately favor the FBI anyways. Nico -- - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Photos of an FBI tracking device found by a suspect
On Fri, 8 Oct 2010 16:13:13 -0500 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 11:21:16AM -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > > My question: if someone plants something in your car, isn't it > > your property afterwards? > > If you left a wallet in someone's car, isn't it still yours? Yes. However, that's an accident. If you deliberately leave a package on someone's doorstep, they then own the contents. (In fact, if someone mails you something, US law is very clear that it is yours.) I'd be interested in hearing what a lawyer thinks. Perry -- Perry E. Metzgerpe...@piermont.com - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Photos of an FBI tracking device found by a suspect
On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 11:21:16AM -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > My question: if someone plants something in your car, isn't it your > property afterwards? If you left a wallet in someone's car, isn't it still yours? And isn't that so even if you left it there on purpose (e.g., to test a person's character)? But this is not the same situation, of course, since the item left behind is an active device. If your planting of the device violates the target's rights you might (or might not) lose ownership of the device, along with other penalties. The FBI is a state actor though, so the rules that apply in this case are different than in the case of a tracking device planted by a private investigator, and those might be different than the rules that would apply if the device's owner is a private actor not even licensed as a PI. IOW: ask a lawyer. But I strongly suspect that the answer in this case is "the FBI still owns the device", and "the question is not moot" (as it might be if the device had stopped working then fallen off the car (e.g., after hitting a number of nasty potholes). I mean, I seriously doubt that relevant laws would be written as to grant the subject ownership of devices planted as part of a legal surveillance of them, and though it's possible that judge-made law would conclude differently, I doubt that judges would make such law. Nico -- - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Photos of an FBI tracking device found by a suspect
Original post with nicer pics: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/dmh5s/does_this_mean_the_fbi_is_after_us/ Semi-relevant government pricelist: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=st820ec+site:.gov -a -- alec.muff...@gmail.com - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Photos of an FBI tracking device found by a suspect
On Oct 8, 2010, at 11:21 16AM, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > My question: if someone plants something in your car, isn't it your > property afterwards? > > http://gawker.com/5658671/dont-post-pictures-of-an-fbi-tracking-device-you-find-on-a-car-to-the-internet See http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/10/fbi-tracking-device/ for even more disturbing aspects of the story -- they operated by intimidation (to say nothing of apparent ethnic and religious profiling). --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majord...@metzdowd.com
