Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-16 Thread Jeffrey Walton
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 9:44 PM, James A. Donald jam...@echeque.com wrote: On 2011-06-12 8:53 AM, Nico Williams wrote: [SNIP] Greece is going broke from too much vote buying.  Governments are reluctant let Greece go broke, for fear of contagion.  So they lend the Greeks more money, which is

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-15 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-15 7:58 AM, Nico Williams wrote: Uncivilized state actors will not give a damn about your crypto. They will torture you, your friends, your family. If they can find you. ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-14 Thread Danilo Gligoroski
Nicholas Bohm write: Now I find I can exchange a little over five bitcoins for a 50 Amazon gift certificate that Amazon seems happy to credit to my account. Danilo Gligoroski wrote: Your example is about two actors: Amazon and BitCoin, acting within small amounts of goods, services and

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-14 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-15 7:58 AM, Nico Williams wrote: Let's say you have an unbreakable code. Which we do. But there's still traffic analysis, and even with onion routing and such, you don't know if your peers are ratting you out, If one of the mixers is my own, I know that that mixer is not ratting

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Adam Back
Bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, and doesnt have to have the collapse and late joiner losers. If bitcoin does not lose favor - ie the user base grows and then maintains size of user base in the long term, then no one loses. I think in the current phase the deflation (currency increasing in

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Meredith L. Patterson
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:50 AM, John Levine jo...@iecc.com wrote: PS: For anyone who wants a crypto currency backed by gold, that's functionally equivalent to a gold ETF, of which there are several, such as ticker symbols IAU, GLD, GTU, SGOL, and AGOL.  They do what they do perfectly

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-13 2:50 PM, John Levine wrote: But that really has nothing to do with the crypto part. You can have crypto out the wazoo, and it's worth nothing unless there's an issuer in meatspace who will accept your crypto coins, cancel them, and hand you the agreed amount of money. But

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Paul Crowley
On 13/06/11 10:31, James A. Donald wrote: The difference was Fannie, Freddie, and the CRA. This is entirely off topic. Please drop it. -- __ \/ o\ Paul Crowley, p...@ciphergoth.org /\__/ http://www.ciphergoth.org/ ___ cryptography mailing list

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Danilo Gligoroski
Nicholas Bohm write: Now I find I can exchange a little over five bitcoins for a £50 Amazon gift certificate that Amazon seems happy to credit to my account. I see the example of an institution (organization, company, entity, ...) willing to happily credit the current value of

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Ian G
On 13/06/11 5:54 PM, Adam Back wrote: Bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, and doesnt have to have the collapse and late joiner losers. If bitcoin does not lose favor - ie the user base grows and then maintains size of user base in the long term, then no one loses. Um, Adam, that's the very

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Adam Back
Bitcoin does not have to end with the pyramid scheme outcome - where it stalls and all those still holding any lose - so long as there remain people willing to exchange goods for bitcoin after the dust has settled. Anyway my point is even if the deployment phase is a wild ride, with some winners

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Nico Williams
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Nathan Loofbourrow njl...@gmail.com wrote: The good old market played a role here too. There are lots of investors whose risk profile dictates that they should be in safe investments, e.g. pension funds and old people. With the interest rates held on the floor,

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-13 11:55 PM, Ian G wrote: Um, Adam, that's the very definition of a pyramid scheme :) No-one need lose as long as the size of the user base grows, long term! If bitcoin stabilizes, no one loses. If a pyramid scheme stabilizes, last to invest loses.

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread James A. Donald
I was at ground zero of the crisis: Sunnyvale California. And every person I saw buying a seven hundred thousand dollar house was a cat eating no hablo english wetback with no regular job. On 2011-06-14 1:29 AM, Nico Williams wrote: First, there were plenty of middle class (and better off)

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-14 1:50 AM, Nathan Loofbourrow wrote: After a while you run out of big dumb mortgages, and we did. So the pressure was on to create more of them. Once everyone has a mortgage, or maybe two, you start lending to folks with a risk profile that wasn't so hot anymore. This happened in

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread Jeffrey Walton
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:22 PM, James A. Donald jam...@echeque.com wrote: I was at ground zero of the crisis: Sunnyvale California. And every person I saw buying a seven hundred thousand dollar house was a cat eating no hablo english wetback with no regular job. On 2011-06-14 1:29 AM,

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread lodewijk andré de la porte
I get back from vacation and suddenly my inbox is filled with misconceptions. While this is supossed to be a fairly technical mailinglist (about cryptography) it seems clear many people haven't quite understood bitcoins' workings. Let me break it down: * With a private/public key combination you

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-13 Thread James A. Donald
ObCrypto: sorry, got nothing. This crisis has a lot to do with the fact that Bitcoin is doing well, and suggests demand for other cryptographic solutions. As orthodox places to put your money and perform transactions are increasingly suspect, people are now willing to consider unorthodox

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread Peter Gutmann
James A. Donald jam...@echeque.com writes: There is a small but not totally insignificant chance that after fiat monies collapse, the world will go bitcoin standard. ITYM: There is a small but insignificant chance that fiat monies will collapse. There is a small but insignificant chance that

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread Ian G
On 12/06/11 4:21 PM, Peter Gutmann wrote: Am I the only one who thinks it's not coincidence that the (supposed) major use of bitcoin is by people buying hallucinogenic substances? The best way to think of this is from the marketing concepts of product diffusion or product life cycle.

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread Nicholas Bohm
On 12/06/2011 13:23, Ian G wrote: On 12/06/11 4:21 PM, Peter Gutmann wrote: Am I the only one who thinks it's not coincidence that the (supposed) major use of bitcoin is by people buying hallucinogenic substances?

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-13 9:26 AM, Ian G wrote: However. Unless the laws of financial conservation have been repealed by the design, those who follow have to invest a lot and come out with less... Financial conservation does not apply to money. If paper currency collapses, and is replaced by gold, those

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-11 10:41 PM, Ian G wrote: We expect money to be a store of value, among a few other things. BitCoin has nothing in it that speaks to that goal, that I can see [0]. This anti-property would however make it more ideal for a bubble [1]. All money is a bubble. The non monetary value of

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-12 6:13 AM, John Levine wrote: Useful for something, but not useful for money. I can't help but note that the level of economic knowledge in the digital cash community is pitifully low, and much of what people think they know is absurd. (Anyone who thinks that a gold standard is

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-12 8:53 AM, Nico Williams wrote: A fiat currency with no capital controls and reasonably free trade is probably the best currency system yet. Details do matter though. If operated by far sighted men with an eye for the long term - for example if operated by a hereditary monarchy.

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread Jeffrey Walton
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 10:44 PM, James A. Donald jam...@echeque.com wrote: On 2011-06-12 8:53 AM, Nico Williams wrote: A fiat currency with no capital controls and reasonably free trade is probably the best currency system yet.  Details do matter though. If operated by far sighted men with

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread Nico Williams
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 9:44 PM, James A. Donald jam...@echeque.com wrote: On 2011-06-12 8:53 AM, Nico Williams wrote: A fiat currency with no capital controls and reasonably free trade is probably the best currency system yet.  Details do matter though. If operated by far sighted men with

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread Nico Williams
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Jeffrey Walton noloa...@gmail.com wrote: I think Sparta had it right in this instance: put the public officials on trial when their term is over, and make them accountable for their actions. Its funny how those lessons were lost. Doesn't help. The trials

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread Jeffrey Walton
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote: On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Jeffrey Walton noloa...@gmail.com wrote: I think Sparta had it right in this instance: put the public officials on trial when their term is over, and make them accountable for their

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread John Levine
We can therefore see that someone has to make that worth mean something, so for this we need an issuer sometimes known as Ivan. It's beyond the scope of a crypto list to discuss this in depth, but typically Ivan would deposit $1 for every issued electronic dollar in some bank account

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-12 Thread Nico Williams
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 11:28 PM, Jeffrey Walton noloa...@gmail.com wrote: I recall Obama boasting: My Administration is the only thing saving you from the pitchforks of the American people [sic] at a banker's lunch after he took office. On the campaign trail, he received over 1M USD from

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-11 Thread James A. Donald
On 2011-06-11 3:12 PM, James A. Donald wrote: On 2011-06-11 1:58 PM, Peter Gutmann wrote: I wouldn't call bitcoins digital cash. They're more like digital tulip bulbs, Misattribution, that was John Levine, not Peter Gutman. ___ cryptography mailing

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-11 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 02:16:55AM -, John Levine wrote: In article 021ccba9-9203-4896-8412-481b94595...@cs.columbia.edu you write: http://gcn.com/articles/2011/06/09/bitcoins-digital-currency-silk-road-charles-schumer-joe-manchin.aspx?s=gcndaily_100611 I wouldn't call bitcoins digital

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-11 Thread Morlock Elloi
BitCoin has only one problem: maintenance of the relationship between unit BitCoin value and the material world (energy, as in KWh) is 'soft', it requires some sort of a volatile communal effort, which sets it for failure (as a counter example, the amount of Au atoms on this planet is rather

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-11 Thread Jeffrey Walton
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Levine jo...@iecc.com wrote: Unlike fiat currencies, algorithms assert limit of total volume. And the mint and transaction infrastructure is decentral, so there's no single point of control. These both are very useful properties. Useful for something, but

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-11 Thread Kevin W. Wall
;-) On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 6:29 PM, Jeffrey Walton noloa...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Levine jo...@iecc.com wrote: Unlike fiat currencies, algorithms assert limit of total volume. And the mint and transaction infrastructure is decentral, so there's no single

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-11 Thread Nico Williams
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 3:13 PM, John Levine jo...@iecc.com wrote: (Anyone who thinks that a gold standard is better than what we have now, or that the supply of gold is fixed in any but a purely hypothetical sense, is either ignorant of economic history or shilling for gold speculators.) +1.

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-11 Thread Ian G
On 12/06/11 8:29 AM, Jeffrey Walton wrote: On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Levinejo...@iecc.com wrote: Unlike fiat currencies, algorithms assert limit of total volume. And the mint and transaction infrastructure is decentral, so there's no single point of control. These both are very

Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...

2011-06-10 Thread John Levine
In article 021ccba9-9203-4896-8412-481b94595...@cs.columbia.edu you write: http://gcn.com/articles/2011/06/09/bitcoins-digital-currency-silk-road-charles-schumer-joe-manchin.aspx?s=gcndaily_100611 I wouldn't call bitcoins digital cash. They're more like digital tulip bulbs, or bearer shares of