Re: [css-d] @media tv

2009-07-09 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Ingo Chao wrote:

 How would a generic media types string look like for the visual media
 group in CSS2.1?
 
 @media screen, projection, handheld

 is this correct?

'tv' gets the fit to width treatment for medium resolution devices by 
Opera, and some 'screen' layouts - like mine - simply don't work well 
when given that treatment. So, I think @media 'tv' has its place for 
separate styling.

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Re: [css-d] clear floats is clearing my right hand column!!

2009-07-07 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Chris Blake wrote:

 A long time ago I found an easy way to clear floats.

 [...]

 I hope it's a good method because I remember being really pleased 
 because it's a lot easier than other methods that I'd found.

In your case a change from clear: both to clear: left will work.
However, having extra clearing-elements in the markup is only good for
odd cases, not as a general solution.

 http://pendulum8.com/karst.test/staff.php

For cases like that it's better to contain floats than to clear them.
Also, there's no need to add extra container divs just to keep images
and paragraphs together. Paragraph hold related images just fine, so why
not put those images in there, contain them, and delete the unnecessary
divs?.

Example:
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/cb/test_09_0707.html
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/cb/test_09_0707_files/style200.css

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Re: [css-d] Headline Background overlapping floated Div

2009-07-03 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Tony Lush wrote:
 On this page http://tinyurl.com/mo88uz the headlines in the left
 column under Course Description go the full width of the
 containing Div and overlap the 30% width, right-floated Div to the
 right.
 
 Is there a way to prevent this?

Try something along these lines...

h3 {margin-right: 260px;}
.course_right h3 {margin-right: 0;}

...and tune till you're happy with the result.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] IE7 bugs

2009-06-24 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Joseph Sims wrote:

 And the left sidebar carries white all the way down the page... obscuring 
 the 
 background that is supposed to create the faux columns look - example: 
 http://www.titancom.net/dev/hec/JS/about.html.

 Can noone give me advice with this? Is it legal to bump a topic? It kind of 
 fell out of the loop.

Declare...
body {background: transparent;}
...and it will look like IE7 and older behave, even if they don't.

The reason for this is that the body element has Layout in old IE, and 
therefore expands to below footer - covering the background on the html 
element in the process.

Not so in better browsers, as your many float styles keep #page, and 
thereby the body element, from expanding below the header.

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Re: [css-d] negative margin in safari and Opera

2009-06-18 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
JGardner wrote:

 I am looking for information regarding how opera and safari handle 
 negative margins.

Same as Gecko (Firefox etc.) and IE.

 I am working on a site - http://www.lauramcguire.com/ which I used a 
 negative margin to place the navigation at the top right of the web 
 page.

 It works fine in I.E. and Firefox but does not show up in safari and 
 opera.  Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Check where the element is in Opera and Safari _without_ the negative
margin. What you'll see is the difference in how Opera and Safari on on
side and Firefox and IE on the other side _line up floats_ that comes
after non-floating elements.

To get the same line-up in all browsers, make the nave-styling even out
those float-handling differences. In your case this will work...

#nav {
float:right;
position:relative;
margin-top:-35px;
width: 100%;
text-align: right;
}

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Georg
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Re: [css-d] What's your preference -- fluid, elastic, or fixed?

2009-06-08 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Glow wrote:

 So, just out of curiosity -- what's your particular preference and
 why?

Screens and UA windows come in all shapes and sizes and on ever more
devices. The web is flexible, and so am I - with mediaqueries to catch
edge cases for even more flexibility in the most capable User agents.

That doesn't mean everything has to be flexible, as it's usually not
much of a problem to mix flexible with fixed and 'em'-sized. It all
depends on the job at hand and what/who it's targeted at.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Drop Down Menus

2009-06-04 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Asha Nair wrote:

 www.faithlandchurch.org.au

Add...

#menu {clear: left;}

...to make IE8 render as intended.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] site check, particularly on ie6 ?

2009-05-30 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
snak detek+0r wrote:

 Index and all inside pages: Neither Opera or The IEs are capable of
  scaling line-height set in pixels. Try a raw number for 
 line-height.
 
 wow. didn't even know i could do that. the w3 site doesn't even 
 mention that you can use px, but everyone and their mom seem to, 
 including ALA, some grid-layout people, etc. sheesh. i normally use 
 em, when starting from scratch, but apparently that's wrong too?

No, 'em' for line-height isn't wrong. The resulting line-height is just
calculated different from when raw numbers are used.

For line-height:'em' values gives line-heights based on actual font-size
for an element's parent, which is ok if that's what you want. When raw
numbers (no unit) are used, line-height is calculated from actual
font-size of the element itself, which in most cases gives the best result.

 Index: Minimum font-size 24px breaks the h-nav and does a little 
 number on the text in right column.
 
 i'm not sure what you mean by this? i don't have any fonts nearly 
 that big. and i also couldn't see what you're talking about in 
 ff/chrome. today i got ahold of ie6, and still didn't see it.

David is referring to a browser setting - 'minimum font size' option -
that some end-users set to resize text on _all_ sites...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_03_04.html
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_37.html
...without having to bother with resizing or zooming on individual sites.

Observations across the web indicates that few web designers know
about, or test for, this option. The result is that many sites break
under the stress of browsers' 'minimum font size'.

(Note: Fx 3+ resizes text more or less like Safari does for the 'minimum
font size' option in most but apparently not in all cases. Google Chrome
doesn't seem to have this option.)

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] IE and font size

2009-05-22 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Maxim Soloviev wrote:

 http://ares-pearl-b1.nakea.net/ Could you please help me figure out 
 why text looks s big in IE6/7/8.

Flawed markup in header. A span is not an empty, self-closing, element,
and, unlike most other browsers, IE can't treat it as if it was and
recover from this flaw.
The result is that font-size: 20pt is applied to all text following
the header in IE/win, apart from the headlines that have font-size
defined in the stylesheet. 20pt is indeed quite large.

This is flawed...

pstrongspan style=font-size: 20ptspan style=color:
rgb(255,255,255) //span/strong/p
pnbsp;/p
pnbsp;/p
pstrongspan style=font-size: 20ptspan style=color:
rgb(255,255,255) //span/strongspan style=font-size: 20pt //p
/div

...and should be corrected to this...

pstrongspan style=font-size: 20ptspan style=color:
rgb(255,255,255)/span/span/strong/p

pnbsp;/p
pnbsp;/p
pstrongspan style=font-size: 20ptspan style=color:
rgb(255,255,255)/span/span/strongspan style=font-size:
20pt/span/p
/div

The HTML validator doesn't flag the error because it checks the markup
as if it was properly served XHTML - following XML rules where such
self-closing of most elements is allowed. IE/win doesn't support
properly served XHTML and has no idea about such rules, and your
document isn't properly served XHTML anyway - it is HTML.



Note that once the markup flaws are corrected, all font-sizes you have
defined in pixels in the stylesheets kicks in. This means IE/win can't
resize the text.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] h3 with layout is clearing a float in IE6

2009-05-21 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
lev rickards wrote:

 http://sandbox.hgci2.net/

 Ideal case: 1) all div#comparisons h3's have layout 2) everything
 within div#comparisons stays to the right of the navigation list.

Total width of h3 with padding and all is to large to fit, and IE6
doesn't handle overflow properly.

Easiest solution:

1: remove width references on all h3.
2: add...

#comparisons h3 {height: 1%; }



regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] css or javascript hacks for firefox

2009-05-18 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Alan Gresley wrote:

 This part of the hack,
 
 |*:not(|
 
 causes a parsing error. Is this fixed in Firefox 3.5b4? I must admit 
 that your hackery (possibly combining structural pseudo class support
 and parsing errors) is hackier than mine. :-)

I'm not surprised :-)
However, keep in mind that I only test hacks to check progress and see
what one can get away with in various browser versions. I do not use
hacks for anything serious.

Also: validity is not an issue (for me) in such test-stylesheets.

 http://css-class.com/test/css/visformatting/float-inline-content3.htm
  Does Firefox 3.5b4 now send those images above the text line?

Yes.

 The same test case but with your hack.
 
 http://css-class.com/test/css/visformatting/float-inline-content4.htm

No.

 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50630
 
 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=441259

I usually don't check what's on such bug lists unless I run into a
specific bug in a real-world case, so I have no idea what the status is
for those bugs in latest versions of affected browsers.

---

Those who utilize bugs in relatively new browsers for anything serious,
will have to check and update every time a new version is released --
not only the browser they try to target but nearly all browsers. There
are 4 major engines one has to keep track of, and one has to check at
least the last 2-3 generations/versions of each. There are also between
25 and 30 individual browsers that use these 4 engines, and many lag one
or more generations/versions behind the major browser on each engine.

Staying on top of all these while trying to target/hack individual
versions, should keep any web developer busy. If one wants to use ones
time for something else, one better not enter such a hacking-race in the
first place.

---

Testing browsers, with hacks and all, in ways/places where it doesn't
hurt no matter the outcome, is of course an entirely different matter.

That's what I do...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_42.html
...and I focus on engine versions, not individual, named, browsers.
For each major or minor modification to my browser targeting stylesheet...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/styles/target-browser.css
...I also test in at least two dozen browsers with engines that may be
affected because they share bugs and/or proprietary selectors, and a
dozen or so more that simply may not be shielded well enough.

The need to provide extra shielding for non-targeted browsers, is the
main reason my selector-chains are so complex and often contain
nonsensical and unnecessary parts.


Hackers who check only in a few browsers, tend to produce what looks
like cleaner hacks, but such clean hacks tend to fail more often and
end up hurting the wrong browsers. Failing hacks on regular web sites do
at least as much damage for developers and end-users as all browser bugs
put together, so one really shouldn't hack if one can't test the outcome
in nearly all 25-30 browsers that are in use today, _and_ also make sure
future (not yet released) versions are somewhat shielded.

The latter means thorough testing in all new beta and RC versions, so
one can keep track of progress and regress and be prepared for the final
releases. Of course; no one in his right mind will hack a beta or RC
version for real, so the purpose for beta/RC testing here is to make
sure hacks meant for older versions won't disturb new versions.

Those who want to can then check bug lists and report problems/bugs
found during beta/RC testing. Such reports are usually most welcome
for all browsers.

--

To see, and eventually test, which hacks (selector chains) that hit the
various versions, look at my page and stylesheet linked to above.

Haven't checked and updated my browser targeting stylesheet in any
detail since March this year, but it still seems to select the right
engine versions across the board - including [Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U;
Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b4)], so I'm in no hurry. Got other
things on my mind these days, and complete and proper testing is time
consuming.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] IE 8

2009-05-15 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Kathy Wheeler wrote:
 I've seen 'real' IE6's on two different machines give different 
 results to each other :-(

Change one or more settings in IE6, and get another result...

Same goes for all browsers, so if one wants to know the outcome at the
user-end one better test with a whole range of options and setting
combinations in each browser. Testing only at default or with ones own
or someone else's preferred settings in a browser, don't really tell much.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] positioning images on a background graphic

2009-05-15 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Anthony L wrote:
 A question though: I thought the 1px border was just for debugging
 ... But if I comment out the #container border, the button images
 shift right to the top of the div ... any idea why?

Collapsing margins...

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/box.html#collapsing-margins


The easiest solution is to add...

#container {
padding: 1px 0;
}

...as replacement for the border. Other solutions/options are listed in
the W3C article.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] column without tables or fixed width

2009-05-12 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Jack Bates wrote:

 Does CSS support presenting the text in a straight up and down
 column?

Yes, see...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_example_01_02.html

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Getting absolutely positioned divs with bottom: auto to end together

2009-05-11 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Michael Leibson wrote:

 www.thinkingmusic.ca/analyses

I have used a copy of this page to exemplify one approach to solving
your problems...

http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/ml/test_09_0511.html
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/ml/test_09_0511_files/styles00.css

 Are these differences the result of my own errors, or normal browser 
 behaviour?

Both :-)

Browsers behave this way given the styles you have provided.

You can not calculate the right length (height) of an element in
relation to another, unless one is a child of the other.

 If the result of browser behaviour, I’d rather just find a way to 
 ensure that all divs conclude at the same point (and leave the minor 
 differences alone), rather than write re-calibrated measurements for 
 each browser.  Is there a way to do this?

CSS standards, and some workarounds for very old browsers, let you make
the sidebar (#left) end up exactly in line with the main column. The
easiest way to achieve this is to leave #main un-positioned (static), so
it can affect the height of main div (#top) directly. Then the sidebar
(left) can be absolute positioned relative to bottom of main div (#top)
for perfect alignment.
Resize (text) all you want in any somewhat standard compliant browser,
and it'll keep the bottom alignment.

IE6 can't position opposite edges of elements relative to parents, so
I've added a workaround (dynamic expression) for it.

I've also modified how those ul in the sidebar are positioned.
Note that there's no way you can space those ul evenly down the sidebar
in a way that will look alright for any page-length and amount of
content and degree of font-resizing in the main column. You'll have to
compromise.


Design wise I agree with Philippe: a jagged line-up at the bottom will
look better then a straight line. You can achieve a straight line or a
jagged alignment as you wish with the method I've exemplified, and the
chosen alignment will remain stable.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Getting absolutely positioned divs with bottom: auto to end together

2009-05-11 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Michael Leibson wrote:

 www.thinkingmusic.ca/analyses

 You guys aren't 'mere web developers' -- you're mathematicians!

:-)

When dealing with browsers that's definitely an advantage.
Apart from that; when one has created and modified a few thousand
layouts, the only problem is which solution(s) to choose amongst the
many one knows will work for the case at hand.

To use the same page for more examples - different ways to achieve the
same thing, here are two identically-looking pages...

http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/ml/test_09_0511-a.html
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/ml/test_09_0511-b.html

These two have the left sidebar absolute positioned from inside an
absolute positioned main column, which mean I've gone back to your
absolute positioning method but rearranged the markup ever so slightly
but modified it slightly to make it work as you wanted.

test_09_0511-a has the sidebar above the main content in the markup -
like your original page, while test_09_0511-b has the sidebar below
the main content. As you can see the source-order can be modified to
either main content first or main content last, based on the exact same
stylesheet with the exact same absolute positioning...

http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/ml/test_09_0511_files/styles01.css


Now, note that this method only works well when the main column is at
least tall enough to stretch the sidebar to a reasonable height. To
short a main column will make the sidebar look crammed, so you may have
to add a suitable min-height to #main if you don't have enough content.
I've used #main {min-height: 1200px;} which has no effect on the
examples since the amount of content pushes it taller, but the optimal
value depends on how much you want to put into the left sidebar.

I added in a jagged bottom-edge just to show what we mean by that.
By applying #left {bottom: 10px;} I'd mad sure the sidebar will always
be 10px shorter than the main column, regardless of how tall the main
column is or ends up being when you resize text. I think it looks better
this way.


To give you a bit more to build on; read this ALA article...
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/conflictingabsolutepositions/

Also; for the examples above I used my own IE-expression to make IE6
play ball...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_22.html

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Stretching in IE7, even worse in IE6.

2009-05-08 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Paul ODonovan wrote:
 Hi, my name is Paul :) this is my first post -

Welcome.

 www.blueprintdesign.ie

 In IE7 there is unwanted space occuring in the place where my images 
 originally were before I positioned them.

The negative effect of 'hasLayout'[1] in old IE: the paragraph expands
to contain the floating image, and everything that follows get pushed
down - creating big gaps.

To make IE6/7 behave: delete the 'width : 280px;' on 'ul#clients li p'.
See below.

 The issues with IE6 seem to affect every part of my design - it's 
 hard to know where to start, but for now I would be grateful even 
 just getting IE7 in order.

Once you've fixed things for IE7, add...

ul#clients li p img {
position: relative;
}

...and change #content-main to the following...

#content-main {
position: relative;
padding: 10px 0 0 0;
width: 61%;
max-height: 2700px;
}

That will get you started on fixing IE6.
You can tune margins and paddings to taste to achieve a somewhat
cross-browser stable appearance.

 Any comments, criticism or suggestions @ all are welcome!

1: When using conditionally commented stylesheets to fix IE, put them after
the default stylesheet(s) in the page head. That'll make it easier to
override the default stylesheet(s) with IE-specific styles without
having to bother with modifying selector specificity to make those IE
styles kick in.

2: Note that IE8 rarely needs fixes, so reserve those IE fixes for...
!--[if lte IE 7]
...or else you'll just end up making IE8 render really bad while fixing
its predecessors.

3: For now: delete _all_ existing styles in the stylesheet for IE, and
start over again for IE7 and below. Existing IE styles either don't kick
in in the order you have them now, or they don't make sense and end up
ruining IE's chances to do a reasonable good job if you change the order
so they do.


You can check how various IE versions will render your page with (only)
the basic fixes (see above) in place, here...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/pod/test_09_0508.html
...and compare yours with the modified (default) styles here...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/pod/test_09_0508_files/B400.css
Should give you a starting point.


regards
Georg

[1]http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html
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Re: [css-d] hovering action

2009-05-08 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Oszkar Ambrus wrote:
 The problem is, that when my cursor is above the second navigation 
 level, the main link (e.g. Our Fellowship) goes back to normal 
 state on my website.

 [2] http://covenantfellowshipgalway.uuuq.com

Add :hover to the li containing the anchor and sub-levels, like so...

#masthead li.fellowship:hover a,
#masthead li.fellowship a:hover,
#masthead li.fellowship a.selected,
#masthead li.fellowship a.active{ background-position: -75px -40px; }

Won't work in IE6 and older without an anything:hover workaround like
the one in the site you've borrowed from - which you'll need anyway, but
all reasonably new browsers will play along right away.

 Nevermind, I fixed it using http://www.cssmenus.co.uk/dropline.html

:-)

I guess that's ok - if you prefer the markup-garbage necessary to make
that CSS only solution work, over a script that contains all the
missing bits and pieces for your first attempt. Good to have choices.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] weird white block appears in bg

2009-05-08 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Todd Bingham wrote:
 I put the content in a container div i the center. ... But as you can
 see from the sample url, a strange white box appears under the
 container div at the bottom leftargghh!!

 http://www.design-conquer.net/GoodNewsEtc/stories/jackson.html#

Delete the fixed height on body and on #container. You can replace them 
with 'min-height' if you like.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] IE 6 layout issues

2009-05-07 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
David Bailey wrote:

 http://www.widemannviolins.com/index.php

Suggestion:
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/db/test_09_0507.html

http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/db/test_09_0507_files/layout00.css
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/db/test_09_0507_files/menu.css
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/db/test_09_0507_files/menu_ie.css

 1. Text content:

a: Do not declare backside margins on the #rightColumn_hp float, as it
then becomes wider than 100% when IE's faulty percentage calculation
kicks in.

b: absolute position the .hp_img.

 2. Stripes:

Stiffen up #footer with a hasLayout trigger.

 3. The Main Nav bar text:

One can hardly make IE6 render like FF or Safari, but it can be prettied
up a bit by adding em-width and other trimming. IE6/7 also needs help
with correct stacking of absolute positioned elements - the dropdowns.
I've included the most basic fixes in the suggestion above, compare with
what you've got and implement as you like.

Also included min-width fix for IE6, in case you want that.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] html html

2009-05-06 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Vincent Pollard wrote:

 html #IDNameofIFrame html { overflow-y: auto !important; }

 It is legal in css2.1 to write html html like this?

Legal, yes, but such a selector chain doesn't point to any element since
there's no 'html' element inside 'html'. Selector chains can only
express parent -- child relations, not the other way round.

This would make sense selector-wise, but won't affect an iframe in a page:

html {
 overflow-y: auto !important;
}

...so, if #IDNameofIFrame is the iframe, make it...

html #IDNameofIFrame {
 overflow-y: auto !important;
}

 It's hard to find help online as 'html' brings up too many references
 to the language, instead of the element.

You can always check validity/legality here...
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/#validate_by_input
...but valid doesn't necessarily mean that it will work. Valid/legal
selector chains are easy to build up, but unless they address the exact
structure of your document at markup level they'll be nonsensical and
have no effect whatsoever.

Can't offer more help than that without seeing the actual document with
the iframe - and the problem, with the iframe's content loaded. Iframes
are somewhat uncontrollable - no real cross-browser support for anything
but the basic styling, and you can not address the document loaded into
the iframe through the iframe.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Fluid Page + Centered 80% Div + Thumbnails

2009-05-06 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Court Kizer wrote:
 http://courtkizer.com/screenshots/Untitled.png

 At this point I'm not even sure it's possible.

Suggest you start here...
http://www.brunildo.org/test/ImgThumbIBL2b.html

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Centered text positioned incorrectly in IE7

2009-05-05 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Chris Hanks wrote:
 Hmm, alright. Can you or anyone else on the list suggest a better way
 of making this work? I'm not sure where to begin...

For cross-browser appearance in all somewhat standard-aware browsers -
including IE6/7 in Strict mode, the following approach will work.

- Add left and right padding on #elastic-container, and modify its
min/max-width to include these side-paddings.

- Pull those .left and .right boxes into #elastic-container's
side-paddings, so they appear where they are now.

- Remove side-margins and max-width from .tutorial p, so those
paragraphs are held in place by the side-paddings on #elastic-container
and the inner side-margins on those .left and .right boxes.




In addition: you should mark up in accordance with the chosen doctype,
or else you'll have a hard time making sense of what the markup
validator tells you...
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.selfsoothingsoftware.com/
Some of those errors are more serious, while others are caused by
doctype vs. markup confusion.
In short: your document is invalid tag soup ATM, and should be fixed
at markup level before you start correcting it at CSS/appearance level.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Centered text positioned incorrectly in IE7

2009-05-05 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Chris Hanks wrote:

 Alright, I took care of the markup problems, so everything validates.
  It's been put up in its updated form:
 
 http://www.selfsoothingsoftware.com

Good. Makes it much easier to work with.

 I was trying to keep the main text column at a consistent width, and 
 deal with an expanding/shrinking window size by moving the 
 supplemental boxes in and out of the main column. Is there a way to 
 do that?

Yes. See below.

 I'm also not sure how you meant I should move the right and left 
 boxes into the padding on either side.

I meant: with negative margins on those floats.

 I tried setting their positions to relative and then displacing 
 them with left: and right:, but that just leaves big holes where
  they used to be.

Relative positioning doesn't move elements, only offset them visually.
This means they still take up space in their original position, which
creates those gaps you observed.

To give you some ideas about how you can mix your various wishes
together in a mostly cross-browser reliable way, check the following
slightly reworked copy of your page...

http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/ch/test_09_0506.html
...and its stylesheet...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/ch/test_09_0506_files/style000.css

It can be made to work much better than that, but the 'em'-sizing you're
using creates problems. To make it work properly you'll have to restyle
the layout so the 'em'-sizing is set on body or a page-wrapper, and
containers further in get sized in percentages of that outer element.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] IE problems - karst

2009-05-04 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Chris Blake wrote:

 1. The mainphoto clears the side content in IE.
 2. The padding (or margin) I have put on the menu is making the
 container stretch in IE.

 http://www.pendulum8.com/karst.test/

To solve those IE6 problems, add...

* html .twoColFixRtHdr #container {overflow-x: hidden;}
* html .twoColFixRtHdr #mainContent {margin: 0; overflow-x: hidden;}

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] position issue in ie6/7

2009-05-04 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Göldi wrote:

 http://allesneumachtdermai.wallisellerlauf.ch/

 Is the order of the tags relevant when positioning some of them 
 absolute?

In IE6/7, yes. Old IE is buggy :-)

You can fix IE6/7 by adding a br / between top_menu and breadcrumb...

/div
br /
div id=breadcrumb

...with the following br styling...

br {line-height: 0;}

That'll give old IE something to line the breadcrumb margin up against,
without disturbing better browsers.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Closest thing to Conditional Comments Safari / Firefox

2009-05-04 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Court Kizer wrote:

 I know that putting -webkit in front of css will make it safari only.
  Could I do the same thing -moz-margin-top, or is does mozilla only 
 allow this for CSS 3?

Such prefixes are reserved for vendor specific extensions to CSS, and
the extension names and effects are not necessarily identical to those
found in standardized CSS...
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#vendor-keywords
Thus, only occasionally useful for hacking browsers.

 I'm looking for the most pain-free way without a massive browser 
 check to have several selective items based on the browser.

For non-essential additions/modifications based on browser etc., a
simple script is probably the easiest solution...
http://rafael.adm.br/css_browser_selector/

There are also heavier solutions, for example...
http://conditional-css.com/
...that I haven't bothered to test.

Solely for testing-purposes I apply watermarks in the page-backgrounds
in the web design section on my own site, based on vendor specific rules
and prefixes and degree of CSS selector support, bugs and other
peculiarities in various browsers...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/styles/agxc-050331.css
Note that I'm targeting specific browser engines - not specific
browsers, and the outcome in regular visitors' browsers isn't really
important.

One can get away with such hacking if it doesn't really matter if it
fails occasionally. None of the above methods can be recommended for
adding/modifying essential content on a site.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Centered text positioned incorrectly in IE7

2009-05-04 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Chris Hanks wrote:

 http://www.selfsoothingsoftware.com

 The second, and more pressing problem, is that my main content (the 
 text column and floated boxes) appears completely out of whack in IE.
  The boxes are approximately in the right place, but IE7 is trying to
  center the paragraphs of the text column midway between the floated 
 boxes and the opposite edge of the screen, and I'm not sure how to 
 make it stop.

Without looking at it in depth: min-width/max-width acts as
'hasLayout'[1] triggers in IE7, which causes the effect you're describing.
In my (very personal) terminology you get a hard margin on a block
formatted element, which means the margins on paragraphs won't flow
behind the floats but instead line up against them, and the paragraphs
become isolated square blocks.

No other way to fix that IE7 'hasLayout' bug but to delete the
min-width/max-width 'hasLayout' triggers, and find another way to add
the space at both sides. If you want/need to support IE6 you'll have to
create such an alternative solution anyway.

regards
Georg

[1]http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html
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Re: [css-d] css or javascript hacks for firefox

2009-05-03 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Ido dekkers wrote:

 thehttp://test3.dekkers.net/login.htm is the problem
 
 what i don't understand is why not use the fix?

I see no problem with the fix in your case, because of the way it is
built up and used.

The simplified selector for Gecko 1.9.1 + suggested by Philippe, will
actually make it even safer against future problems by utilizing
progressive enhancement with (only) a selector that is unlikely to be
removed from or changed in CSS standards and/or browser support.


Generally: it is the unstable nature of new browser versions -
especially beta versions of course, that makes us hesitate to add hacks
that targets them. Only stable browser versions should be hacked at all,
and then only when there's no other, sensible, option.


Your markup - source order - is correct as is, and should rather not be
modified in order to work around a CSS weakness (bug) in a browser.
When compensating for browser bugs it is almost always better to rework
or add something to the stylesheet, than to modify the markup.

Years back we had no choice but to go through and modify both markup and
stylesheets when we encountered especially problematic bugs, but these
days sensible markup should be left as is and all hacks (if any are
needed) should be kept in the stylesheets. Only IE6 still creates a few
exceptions to this rule.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] css or javascript hacks for firefox

2009-05-02 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
 BTW: which known bug? Just in case there are better options.

 namely bug 50630: float should be as high as previous line box 
 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50630

That bug is indeed old and well known, and has caused problems all
along. Don't know of any option but to hack back and forth between old
and new Geckos for that bug.

Problem is: one has to hack older Gecko version with a fix (lift float)
and new versions with the correct value, and it is always unsafe to hack
new versions.


This reduced hack should otherwise work, at least back to Fx 1.5 (not
thoroughly tested)...

@-moz-document url-prefix() {
:rootbody ELEMENT-SELECTOR {/* fix old Gecko */}
:rootbody:not(:nth-child(0)):only-of-type*|*:not(|*)
ELEMENT-SELECTOR {/* correct value for new Gecko */}
}

Good thing is: the hack won't affect non-Gecko browsers.
Bad thing is: it isn't anywhere near safe since one has to hack all
3.1+ versions back to standard float-alignment now that the bug is fixed.
At some point in the near or more distant future one may have to delete
the entire hack, to avoid getting caught up in a hacking-race caused by
future development of Gecko and/or CSS standards.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] css or javascript hacks for firefox

2009-05-02 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Alan Gresley wrote:

 If this is this bug

 http://css-class.com/test/css/visformatting/floats/floats-width-auto.htm

Although dealing with vertical alignment of floats, our test case isn't
revealing just one bug.

Reordering the markup is the old solution, and it'll still work -
if that's an option.

Another option is to absolute position relevant elements, thus avoid old
float-alignment bugs altogether.


To return to what appears to be the original poster's case:
http://test3.dekkers.net/login.htm
...a fix for older Geckos will make it appear like this...
Page: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/id/test_09_0502.html
CSS: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/id/test_09_0502_files/layout00.css

Yes, it is backwards (hacking both old and new Gecko versions). I've
also ignored very old Geckos completely.
However, when dealing with a case that falls apart when subjected to the
slightest amount of font resizing in any browser anyway, such a solution
doesn't really add serious problems.

The best solution is always to leave new browser versions alone - not
hack them, but if that's not an option...

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Creating your own stylesheet for a website

2009-05-01 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Atkinson, Sarah wrote:
 I go to a website fairly regularly and their styles are horrible. 
 It's just too painful for me to look at anymore. Is there away for me
  to create a Stylesheet for it and have my browser automatically 
 override there styles?

Yes, but how automatically it is activated depends on which browser
you use.

See:
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UserStylesheets
http://webdesign.about.com/od/userstylesheets/a/aa010906.htm
...for how to guidance.

FWIW: I use Opera, which lets me set up 'site preferences' to
automatically control any site with whatever combination of author/user
stylesheets and whatnot I like.
Sure comes handy - even if there happens to be a designer behind a
site's own styles :-)

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] css or javascript hacks for firefox

2009-05-01 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Ido dekkers wrote:

 is there a css hack for ver 3 and below or something using 
 javascript? i need to to fix a known bug only in FF without effecting
  other standard complaint browsers?

If you really want/need to hack Gecko versions, yes...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/styles/target-browser.css

Not recommended.

BTW: which known bug? Just in case there are better options.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] menu issue

2009-04-22 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Ian Young wrote:

 http://db-studio.venus.titaninternet.co.uk/index.php
 
 Although there is no change to the html, I have had to add an extra 
 style code in the contact and portfolio pages as the menu sits a few 
 pixels higher than does than it does on the other pages.

Some pages have a Transitional doctype and others have a Strict doctype.
That explains the different handling of elements inside your h1, making
the h1 vary in height between pages.

Mode-stabilize the h1 construction first, by adding...

h1 * {display: block;}
h1 {padding-bottom: 6px;}

After that you should need no page specific styling of the nav-margin,
and can adjust the padding-bottom on h1 to taste to push the nav down.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Old IE6 Problem again

2009-04-21 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Nic Pulford wrote:

 Here is the page http://www.leadersmith.org.uk/tnbda/about.htm the 
 thing that does wrong is the Case Studies list in the bottom of the 
 left column.

IE6' broken 'overflow' handling.

Add...

#seperator {overflow: visible;}

...to make sure IE6 keeps that container's overflowing absolute
positioned content visible even when the container itself is/goes below
lower window edge.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Display problem with IE7

2009-04-20 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Ansari Samir wrote:

 And David, we are not using Image there, it is an anchor tag and we 
 have given background image to that anchor tag.

Nonsense. There's an img element inside that anchor, and its src
attribute is addressing this image...
http://jobspert.com/qmjobsinc/imgsSys/jb_logo.png
That's not a background image.

For the record: David was right about the problem, but his solution
didn't fit the case. The case itself is too broken.

 Someone, please help me sort this problem.

Turn the anchor/image combination into this...

a href=http://jobspert.com;img src=/qmjobsinc/imgsSys/jb_logo.png
alt=Jobspert style=border:0; margin-bottom: 3px; vertical-align:
bottom;/a

...and you'll achieve a more consistent alignment across browser-land.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Sticky footer - double decker possible?

2009-04-19 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Anne E. Shroeder wrote:

 http://www.language-works.com/swim/comp.jpg 
 http://www.language-works.com/swim/stickyfooter.htm
 
 Is it possible to code this?

Think so...

http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/aes/test_09_0419.html
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/aes/test_09_0419_files/main.css

Method used: http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/companions.html

The details (fine-tuning and IE6 hacking) are left to you.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] popup image, a element, href, Safari and IE7

2009-04-19 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Brian Funk wrote:

 http://www.stoneladder.ca/sandbox/css/csspopup.html
 
 It works in Firefox 3.0.8, IE8 and Opera9 but IE7 chokes when the
 href attribute is not present and Safari for Windows works not at
 all.

Missing closing bracket on 'a:hover img' throws Safari off. This error
is reported by the CSS validator as Parse Error [empty string].

For IE7: add 'a {height: 1%;}', or another hasLayout trigger, to make
the anchor without href work.

regards
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Re: [css-d] popup image, a element, href, Safari and IE7

2009-04-19 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Brian Funk wrote:

 http://www.stoneladder.ca/sandbox/css/csspopup.html

 The hasLayout trigger doesn't seem to work.

Ok, I overlooked that I had a double-fix in there, and contributed
IE7's positive response to the wrong fix.

Here's another dirty trick to make IE7 behave...

http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/bf/test_09_0420.html

In short: make the ':hover' selector look like this...

a:hover img, x:hover img {...}

...with a nonsensical reference following the real one. Any selector can
replace the x, as long as it isn't an a. Go figure :-)


I also added a fix for IE6 in there...

a:hover {background-position: 0;}

...but that one only makes the complete link work since IE6 doesn't
support ':hover' on non-links.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] ie8 bug? The container div is inexplicably jumping around. Please help!

2009-04-14 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Noah Learner wrote:

 Is this an ie8 bug?

No, it is intentional. The vertical scrollbar is removed when pages are
shorter than the browser-window, making the available window wider.
Auto-centering (in your stylesheet) then makes pages jump half the
scrollbar-width left or right depending on how tall they are.

Same happens in most, if not all, non-IE browsers, while IE7 and older
keep the scrollbar in place also when there's no need for it.

Nothing to fix IMO, but you can of course make the page artificially
100% + 1px tall (or something), or control the overflow - on the html
element.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Vertically centering text in a paragraph

2009-04-13 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
 does IE support display:table or display:table cell though? I could
 have sworn it didn't.

- IE7 and older does not support CSS table.
- IE8 does support CSS table as well as any other browser - when in full
standards mode.

Georg
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Re: [css-d] IE Fix For Floated Netflix-Style Links?

2009-04-13 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
The Ferrett wrote:

 I did this by wrapping the elements in a div (with an assigned
 width) and then by assigning a left margin calculated to push the div
 out into the center of the column.  This works in every browser but,
 you guessed it, IE. Problem is, in IE 7 that margin appears to be not
 quite doubled, but definitely added to:
 
 http://www.starcitygames.com/SCG_6/test_article_page_with_vote.html

Make it...

#rating_control {
border: 1px dotted blue;
overflow: hidden;
width: 105px;
margin: 0 auto;
}

...and it will center in all browsers - including all IE versions.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] What can I do to improve this CSS?

2009-04-12 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
trevor bayliss wrote:

 http://tinyurl.com/clg668
 
 I would be very greatful if someone could have a look and advise me 
 what to do, Thank you, Regards, Trev

Apply some shorthand and combined selectors, maybe, to reduce the amount
of redundant styling. For instance...

.nav {
padding-right : 0;
padding-left : 0;
padding-bottom : 0;
margin : 0;
padding-top : 0;
list-style-type : none;
}
.nav * {
padding-right : 0;
padding-left : 0;
padding-bottom : 0;
margin : 0;
padding-top : 0;
list-style-type : none;
}

...can be shortened to...

.nav, .nav * {
padding: 0;
margin : 0;
list-style-type : none;
}

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Firefox bug on on new Macs?

2009-04-10 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Michael Leibson wrote:

 I used Firefox to view my website on a friend's zillion-pixel-wide 
 new Mac, yesterday, and I was astonished to find that all elements on
  all pages had a significantly increased width, so that the design 
 was effectively spread, horizontally, to fit the (maximized) window.

Don't know how wide the screen on a zillion-pixel-wide new Mac is, but
my trusty old win machine provides me with a 3800 px wide screen for
browsers if/when I need it.
I need nearly half of that screen-area for your page, in any browser,
just to get rid of the horizontal scrollbar. That's before adding
page-zoom to the equation.

 This would have pleased me, were my design fluid -- but it isn't: 
 it's fixed!

1: your page is full of markup errors...
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.thinkingmusic.ca/
...and some of those are serious.

2: background is positioned 50% from the left side - regardless of
window size.

3: what Fx version did you test in and what settings were at play?

 www.thinkingmusic.ca .

Individual elements hold their declared width, but the page as such
needs 1650px wide windows to get rid of the horizontal scrollbar.

The declared dimensions on paragraphs and parent-less list-items are
creating problems...

http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/ml/test_09_0410.html

...and extra horizontal width all browsers have to cope with.
Why not let those elements auto-adjust to their containers?

FWIW: it looks like you're attempting to recreate print design on the
web, and that rarely ever works well.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Firefox bug on on new Macs?

2009-04-10 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Michael Leibson wrote:

 [...] Related questions:   why, if using an li without an ordered 
 or unordered list is not allowed, does it work on my site?   What are
  the negative consequences of using it that way?

1: you're relying on browsers' error correction, which may or may not
give the same results across browser-land. There's no standard for error
correction, so even if something works in most browsers you can't
complain if it breaks anywhere.

2: non-standard constructions are more problematic to style and debug,
since the standardized relationships don't exist.

3: you're learning a bad habit, and such habits are often hard to
unlearn once they get stuck.

If/when such bad habits and designer bugs becomes frequent for your
work, and you need help to fix something, even if it is or seems to be
unrelated you may be met with the following response...
http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you
...and not much else.

We expect people who ask for help to at least have done their homework -
the best they can, and won't waste time on going through all the
unnecessary and self-inflicted weaknesses that _may_ cause problems
but _maybe_ do not. That's your department, and you've got standards and
validators to help you.

 But while I understand how my background's width causes the 
 horizontal scrollbar, how does the left: 50%; affect either the 
 scrollbar or my friend's 'zooming' of all elements?

Have no idea about your friend's zooming effect since I can't see or
analyze his browser/OS. Also: I still don't know what or how wide a
zillion-pixel-wide screen is, so I can't emulate it.

 Aside from using a fluid design, is there any way I could have it 
 both ways?

Sure. You can use a fixed sized background on a fluid container.
Fixed-width design doesn't mean all containers have to be fixed-width,
only that it appears that way.

Your design will fit in a 1024px wide browser window at default settings
with a non-fixed container for the background - without causing a
horizontal scrollbar, and still hold a wider background for wider windows.

 http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/ml/test_09_0410.html
 . . . For some reason, I keep getting a not found error message 
 when trying to go to that URL.

The URL is working, so can't help you there.

Anyway, just add...
p, li {border: solid 1px red!important;}
...to your stylesheet, to see how wide those elements are - or use one
of the available designer tools to the same effect.

 FWIW: it looks like you're attempting to recreate print design on 
 the web, and that rarely ever works well.
 I know.  The problem, though, was that I needed to get the site up 
 immediately -- it's the second site I've ever done, and I'm very slow
  at this kind of thing.

Nothing special about that - a lot to learn. Just don't put design
before structure, as nice designs on weak structures are less than a
dime a dozen on the web already - and they're causing more problems than
all browser bugs put together.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Problem with a header image in Opera 9.64

2009-04-09 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Krystian - Sunlust wrote:

 http://maleconcept.com/test/
 
 Has the header image centered right, but on opera it slides a bit to 
 the left.

Something strange about that '.gif', but only Opera (all versions - at
least back to Op7.20) seems to react on it.

If I send the image through PhotoShop and saves it for web again - as
'.gif' or 8bit '.png', it lines up as intended but with white areas at
both sides. Those white areas are there in the original 2000px wide image.

I would reduce the image-canvas in width so the white areas at both
sides disappear - that's 1872px wide canvas with the image offset ever
so slightly (1px) to the right, and save it for web as either '.gif' or
'.png'.
That will make the header-image line up exactly as intended in
all browsers, and make it appear right on all window widths - tested on
3800px wide windows in Opera, Firefox and IE.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Intermittent IE 7 problem

2009-04-09 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Rebecca Mazur wrote:
 If someone could just recognize and name the bug for me, that would 
 be a help, as then I could go searching for solutions.

 http://www.kenyon.edu/x12305.xml

The bug is clear enough, but finding a fix isn't.

I found it easier to reproduce the problem in IE6 - multiple times, and
that IE-version also shows clearly that one can fix the problem by
cleaning up the source-code. I used HTML Tidy on a local copy.

Once it becomes stable in IE6 it is also perfectly stable in IE7.
However, trying to analyze what my Tidy actually did that fixed it isn't
easy since I can't use the validator on your original.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Intermittent IE 7 problem

2009-04-09 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Rebecca Mazur wrote:
 Have you had experience with browsers breaking on those particular 
 validation errors?

No. Old IE will eat, ignore or correct such minor errors, same as
other browsers.

I have seen IE do many strange things when served compacted source-code
though, and your markup is pretty compact.
Can't say for sure, but my (original) Tidy is set to unpack and line
up markup in ways I know old IE/win is happy with, and that may have
made all the difference.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] AP's and IE

2009-04-09 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Alan King wrote:
 Is there a fix for making IE impose my absolute positioned divs?
 
 http://www.helixdesign.ca

Yes.

IE6' disappearing A:P element next to a float bug can be problematic,
and not easy to fix in the stylesheet other than by abandoning either
the A:P or the float styling.
Separate absolute elements from floats in the markup, and IE6 will
render as intended.

How you separate them doesn't really matter, and I've just added a
number of br in there...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/ak/test_09_0410.html
...as a demo for how it works.

-

Such a degree of absolute positioning of text-carrying elements makes
your design pretty fragile when exposed to font resizing in browsers
though...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/ak/fx-sc.png
...so it would be better to ditch most absolute positioning and let the
entire layout adjust to the environment and various end-user options.

A better organized source-code with header and footer and two floating
columns with fixed width and auto-height, would be a good basis, and
there's no need to pull floats around with negative margins for a design
like yours - floating them left or right will do.

Proper use of background-color in addition to background-image on body.
will also help keep all text visible. Remember also that headlines as
background-images don't always make it through on their own.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Stuck in Quirks Mode

2009-04-08 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Josiah Sprague wrote:
 The system which we are forced to use generates pages that declare 
 the doctype in quirksmode.

 The problem is that quirksmode in IE breaks my CSS.

 Any ideas on how to work around in this situation?

 http://www.uakron.edu/groups/asg/asgtemplate_copy.php

When stuck in quirks mode: style for quirks mode.

- for IE that means styling for IE5.5, with that version's limitations
and bugs when it comes to CSS support.

- non-IE browsers have full CSS support regardless of mode, so it's just
a matter of tweaking them for the mode and avoiding disturbances from IE
styles.

You'll make it a lot easier for yourself if you avoid absolute
positioning as much as possible - especially for large containers.
The absolute positioned #container_box  with 'overflow: auto' you've got
now doesn't work well in any browser. The bottom nav scrolls on top of
main content on narrow windows.

IE in quirks mode becomes very unstable when it has to calculate in the
extra scrollbar since #container_box is taken out of the flow, as can be
seen in this slightly restyled copy of your page...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/js/test_09_0409.html

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] shifting divs in ie6 and ie7

2009-04-07 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Tony Zanella wrote:

 http://xtf.lib.virginia.edu/xtf/view?docId=2005_Q4_3/uvaBook/tei/z00175.xml
  In ie6, the div id=mainContent is far lower down on the page 
 than in Firefox, and in ie7, the same div jumps over to the right.

Problematic to diagnose and correct a layout that is based on tables,
multiple classes and inline styles to such a degree :-)

It is _not_ an escaping float case - rarely happens in older IE/win
anyway.

Elements inside #subContent1 take up space to the right in old IE/win,
which causes overflow/expansion. As a result #docText gets pushed over
in IE7 - IE7 handles overflow somewhat correct in this case, while in
IE6 #docText runs out of space and gets pushed down below #subContent1 -
IE6 handles visible overflow badly (or rather not at all).

One way to fix old IE's problem is to pull in the right margin on
#subContent1 and thereby make it appear narrower.
The addition of...

#subContent1 {margin-right: -500px!important;}

...will do, and won't create problems for better browsers.

This is not a perfect solution though, only a quick-fix (I got tired of
looking through the somewhat messy source-code and stylesheets).
You should dig a bit deeper and figure out which elements/styles that
cause the overflow/expansion in old IE, and try to correct it there.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] IE6 peculiarity - Also IE8

2009-04-06 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Alan Gresley wrote:

 IE8 beta 2 (8.0.6001) is showing it's missing content bug quite 
 consistently on this page.
 
 http://www.artworkers.net/sandd/chinbrk1.html

Problems with missing content seem to have been solved in IE8 final - at
least I haven't been able to provoke those bugs through pretty thorough
testing of a number of documents that fail in IE8 beta and RC versions.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] sidebar box does not line up correctly in ie7

2009-04-05 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Scott Brasted wrote:
 The text blurb does not line up o the left in ie7.

 http://www.adriennesgardenworks.com/test.php

Float gets hooked up on element above - the menu - in IE.

Add...

div.sb_left_box {clear: left;}

...to make it line up in IE7, and an additional...

div.sb_left_box {display: inline; position: relative;}

...to fix the 'margin-doubling on floats' bug and assure over the edge
visibility in IE6, if you want to cater for that version.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Weird nav menu problem in IE6

2009-04-03 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Luc wrote:

 http://www.dzinelabs.com/sandbox/New_site_layout/liquidnav1.html

 When hovering over the nav, sometimes the logo image disappears, the 
 text on the page shifts, the nav tabs shift,...

- text on the page shift is caused only on window-width wide enough to
trigger max-width in the minmax.js - above around 1200 wide. Narrower
window - below max-width, or disabled script, makes that problem go away.
Have never used that script, or that nav, and can after testing only
conclude that the problem isn't correctable, AFAICS, in CSS.

- can't make the logo disappear, so don't know about that.

- nav tabs shift is caused by bolder first letter on :hover not making
all tabs a particular amount wider. Thus the correction -
margin-left:-.1em; - isn't correct for all tabs.

Suggest you restyle slightly to stabilize the nav tab shift, like in
this revised copy of your document...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/luc/test_09_0403.html
...and look for an alternative to the minmax.js.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] accessible background images

2009-04-03 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Brian Hazelton wrote:
 [...] when i disable background images, the body text disappears 
 because i use a white font color because the background image is 
 almost black...how would i keep it white but make sure people with 
 images disabled can see the text?

Normal procedure is to use a dark background-color in addition to a dark
background-image as background for light text.

Background-color should be declared anyway - lack of one will trigger a
warning in the CSS validator, so it is just a question of choosing the
right colors or shades that assure necessary contrast both with and
without background-images.

If accessibility really matters (which it should), you should also make
sure the choice of colors don't create unnecessary problems for people
with various types of color blindness.
White text on a near-black background should work fine though, although
I personally find such a combination pretty hard to read in most cases.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Putting IE6 out to pasture

2009-04-02 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Martyn Merrett wrote:

 Thought you'd be interested in this. Could this *finally* be the end 
 of IE6 and our CSS woes?

Yes, in time IE6 will disappear - the sooner the better, but the
suggested 'options for not supporting ie6' are time-consuming and
don't provide quick relief for designers/developers.

This is quick and painless...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_50.html
...and can leave IE6 with no styles or with minimal styling in no time,
almost regardless of how one organizes ones site and CSS.

I prefer the minimal styles route - as shown for my article, but will
probably follow the no change route site-wide and for client work
until IE7 disappears too.
IE7 for the most part falls into the same bug-category as IE6, and is
in need of the same fixes as its predecessor(s), or variants thereof,
anyway - at least the way I work :-)

More on the issue...
http://thatnorwegianguy.com/norwegian-ie6-spring-cleaning/
http://www.stoplivinginthepast.com/news/steve-balmer-voices-support-for-the-norwegian-ie6-campaign/

Stay updated: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23IE6

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Putting IE6 out to pasture

2009-04-02 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Virgilio Quilario wrote:

 working on css to deal with ie6 is really time consuming. not to
 mention the troubles of getting ie6 browser for testing.

Both TredoSoft multiple versions of IE...
http://tredosoft.com/Multiple_IE
...and IETester...
http://www.my-debugbar.com/wiki/IETester/HomePage
...work well enough for comfort in a windows PC environment.

Various VM-Ware should make the above work well enough in Linux and
Mac-OS environments, for testing purposes.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Putting IE6 out to pasture

2009-04-02 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Martyn Merrett wrote:
 Eric sent a message out earlier not to discuss/debate this further on
  this list. Apologies for any inconvenience and lets keep our IE6 
 thoughts to ourselves, eh?

We're not discussing/debating the article that initiated this thread.
At least I am discussing how to handle, fix, workaround problems caused
by/in IE6, no matter what one thinks about it.

So far that has been in accordance with the policy on css-d, and unless
the policy has been changed lately I see nothing wrong in presenting
both problems and solutions targeted at a specific browser. That's what
nearly all threads on css-d are about anyway.

I have no real problems with IE6, so I will of course limit my responses
to solutions, and tips about how to check what works and what doesn't.
If that's wrong on css-d, then EAM should clarify things a bit more.
Otherwise we just end this thread because there's really nothing more to
say here anyway, and continue with business as usual.

regards
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Re: [css-d] center float:left

2009-04-02 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
AG wrote:
 Bill, thanks for your reply. In your suggestion, it appears to me 
 that if you don't float the li, all links will stack up in the center
  of the container.

Not so. Inline-block lines up inline - in line, and the whole menu can
then be centered within body or whatever element you want it centered
in. No need to adjust/modify source-code - it's all CSS.

I have used a solution similar to what BB suggests, for years, and apart
from that Gecko only recently implemented proper 'inline-block' support
- older versions needed a 'display: -moz-inline-box;' workaround, and
that old IE/win needed a 'hasLayout' trigger to simulate 'inline-block',
the centered line-up is working perfectly across browser-land.
See link below.

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Georg
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Re: [css-d] Floating/Layering a .SWF video over an image.

2009-04-01 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
RHYAN TAYLOR wrote:
 I have a beta-site, *www.freestyle-la.net*, and I need help getting 
 the .swf file to position properly within the main content area 
 with Internet Explorer.

You will have more luck if you replace the non-standard layer with
div id=layer, and modify the CSS accordingly.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Positioning images and wrapping text...

2009-03-31 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Michael Beaudoin wrote:

 http://www.mhinonline.org/dev.

You mean like...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/mb/test_09_0331.html
...or did you have something else in mind?

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Re: [css-d] Splitting the Center Column Into Two Columns?

2009-03-31 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
The Ferrett wrote:

 http://www.starcitygames.com/SCG_6/test.html

 The problem: my boss wants the capability to occasionally split a 
 given row in half, so we have two news items sitting next to each 
 other on a single row, just as you'd split a table cell in two.

Somewhat like this, I guess...

http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/tf/test_09_0401.html

CSS: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/tf/test_09_0401_files/table_fr.css

Basically: #main is floated, which isolates its content and prevents all
'clear' from acting on surrounding elements.
All involved dimensions and margins are then modified for correct
line-up in such an all float layout.

I didn't bother with quirks mode box model deviations in IE6 and older.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Positioning images and wrapping text...

2009-03-30 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Michael Beaudoin wrote:

 Is there a way to precisely position an image and have the wrap 
 follow?

Precisely can be a problem since hardly anything can be relied upon as
precise in something as fluid as a web design.
But, yes, you can get the effects _I think_ you're after, if you let go
of the html table and rework your graphics (quite) a bit.

I've built up a very basic demo - without background graphics - here...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/mb/test_09_0330.html
...which you can study a bit.

My demo may despite its simplistic look be complex enough for someone
relatively new to CSS based layouts, so take your time.

Things can be rearranged, restyled and get the graphics to meet all
requirements I can read out of your existing case and description. If I
got it wrong, you'll have to explain what you want a little better.


Notice that the offset image moves with font resizing, so it ends up
being positioned precisely where it is supposed to be even after resizing.
Remember that the fluidity in web design: text-size and other end-user
changeable variables, must be taken into account - like I have done, if
one wants a design to survive.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Is this possible with CSS?

2009-03-29 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:

 http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_43.html

 Works as well in Fx 3. You could improve it: set the generated 
 content to display:inline-block and give it a small margin-right.

This will improve bullet positioning in much older Geckos too, when the
right -mos- replacement for 'inline-block' is added.

 The alternative, more cross-browser friendly way (aka, support for 
 old IE): set the a to display:block, give it some padding-left and 
 fill it with a background-image that changes on hover.

Ideally I'd use such a sprite solution only as an addition/alternative
for older IE, since images can't be resized along with text. The perfect
IE-fix is one that simply doesn't work outside old IE, and therefore
becomes obsolete along with those older versions :-)

FWIW: I've also noticed that when text size is changed in browser, IE8
only resizes the generated content (the bullet in this case) and
corrects its line box and thereby its visual position, after a reload.
We can note this down as a bug in IE8.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Float problem in Firefox

2009-03-29 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Gaurav Sharma wrote:

 http://gauravsharma.uuuq.com

First: your example keeps all IE/win versions in a rendering mode
equivalent to that of IE5.5 - Quirks Mode, and doesn't allow for any
improvements made in IE6, IE7 and IE8. Not very wise to block all
progress made to IE, so I hope you don't do that in real designs.

Non-IE browsers don't care which mode your pages trigger - or not - as
long as they're styled correctly and completely.


So, your example will work just fine in Firefox and all other browsers,
regardless of mode, if you add some real clearfix styling...

.clearfix:after {
content: .; display: block; height: 0; clear: both; overflow: hidden;
visibility: hidden;
}

...as can be seen in this, more completely styled but still in quirks
mode, copy of your example...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/gs/test_09_0329.html

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Is this possible with CSS?

2009-03-29 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:

 [...] Using generated content has a lot to go, if you want a simple 
 type of bullet. More decorative list markers are unfortunately still 
 a graphics thing (unless SVG can be used ! Hmm, inline SVG, yumyum).

Should also be possible to resize images inserted through generated
content.
Haven't really bothered to test apart from that I had to add sizes to a
generated content image while testing Safari 4PB since Safari - new
and old - has an irritating bug in that they size such replacing images
to the space of the replaced one by default.

We may also get background resizing in CSS3, which will provide even
more options. Have only tested that in Opera with an -o- test property,
and it's working fine.

 Thing is, most people have problems with all that code forking :-).

I can't see why :-)After all: with a bit of care it's just a
progressive enhancement matter, where we just add the various bits of
code in the right order, and leave to browsers to pick and make the most
out of what each of them can handle. Got to have intimate knowledge
about the inner workings and standards support of all major browsers
though - including slightly older versions, which may be a problem...

Standards support is improving across browser-land, and for that to
continue and work to our advantage, we simply _have to_ fork and add
enhancements, fall-backs and various workarounds now and then.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] ie/7 image issue

2009-03-29 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
David Laakso wrote:
 Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

 Oh, and IE6 stretches all images to perfect squares at first load 
 on slow connections, and the min/max script makes it freeze and die
  under certain conditions. The latter is usually not a problem, but
  the former may still be.
 
 
 Not noticeable on dsl here. No clue how to fix that on a slow 
 connect. My son, the client, is vehemently opposed to reducing the 
 number of images and further compression. Would a well tuned IE 
 expression help any?

No, one has to shake IE6 (cause full re-rendering) automatically after
completed load, to solve the size problem, and I haven't seen/found a
way to do that yet. Can't really ask end-user to shake IE6 if it
doesn't render things properly, I guess :-) but that's really all it
takes to fix it.

Don't know which simulate slow connection solutions that will work for
old IE and/or an entire network. I don't need one yet, but it isn't just
IE6 that is acting up / timing out on slow connections so it would be
useful for all to be able to test slowly for new designs.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Is this possible with CSS?

2009-03-29 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Geoffrey Hoffman wrote:

 Unrelated question... what is the purpose of:
 
 /*![CDATA[*/

See: http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-xml-20001006#sec-cdata-sect

I mark up for XHTML served as 'application/xhtml+xml', and then serve it
as 'text/html' since IE doesn't support it otherwise.
See: http://192.168.1.103/contents/wd_1_06_03.xhtml (which doesn't
work in IE, try this instead:
http://192.168.1.103/contents/wd_1_06_03.html ).

When any of my documents goes on line as 'text/html', the CDATA
delimiters really don't matter any more than the old (and by now pretty
useless) !-- data -- comment delimiters some use to prevent old
browsers from render style-blocks and script-blocks in page-head
content. Style-blocks and script-blocks are not rendered anyway in even
quite old html browsers, but CDATA delimiters certainly do no harm though.

Locally it matters since my editor is geared towards XHTML as XML, and
my markup gets cleaned up by Tidy following XML rules. So, if I don't
put CDATA section delimiters in manually, Tidy will, and my editor and
Tidy will thereafter leave my styles alone and not try to reformat them
in any way.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Is this possible with CSS?

2009-03-29 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

 I mark up for XHTML served as 'application/xhtml+xml', and then serve it
 as 'text/html' since IE doesn't support it otherwise.

Close tabs mistake :-)

For XML capable browsers:
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_06_03.xhtml

HTML for IE:
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_06_03.html

Georg
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Re: [css-d] ie/7 image issue

2009-03-28 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
David Laakso wrote:
 Mac os x 10.4.11 parallels xp ie/7 (only).

Confirmed in IE7(XP) *and* IE8(Vista).

Think it's a flaw in how Trident apply 'max-width' - as 'width' before
checking if 'max-width' should take effect or not.

 http://www.chelseacreekstudio.com/yl/index.html
 
 What to do?

I can't test your construction locally, but since it only happens when
#d is so wide that #d img {max-width : 96%;} is wider than the images
intrinsic width, I suggest you declare a max-width on #d too.

Something close to...
#d {max-width: 554px;}
...(image-border included) should do.

Declaring...
#d img {width: 530px; max-width: 96%;}
...may also work, since 'max-width' overrides 'width'. I can't test this
either.

BTW: those fixed margin-top on images are only correct when images are
not shrunk on narrower windows. When they are, those margins cause
strange alignment-changes when switching images. Same problem in all
browsers.

Not exactly CSS, but if you want a stable alignment: overlay all images
on a common canvas, a white one sized as large as the largest image
would otherwise be, so all images get the same width and height. You'll
have to incorporate the image-border in the image itself then, and make
the canvas wide enough to incorporate it.


Oh, and IE6 stretches all images to perfect squares at first load on
slow connections, and the min/max script makes it freeze and die under
certain conditions. The latter is usually not a problem, but the former
may still be.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Page Check

2009-03-28 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
JWN wrote:

 I'd appreciate it if some of you with IE 8 would have a look at 
 www.nannery.net and let me know if there are any problems.

Looks a bit strange on narrow windows, but the same in all browsers -
including IE8.

regards
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Re: [css-d] Is this possible with CSS?

2009-03-28 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Geoffrey Hoffman wrote:

 Specifically, I want the li bullet to turn a color when I hover on 
 the a inside it.

With CSS only, yes, but browser support is a bit weak.

As an example: we can play with generated content...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_43.html
...and get the effect you want - in supporting browsers.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] IE list problem

2009-03-27 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Climis, Tim wrote:
 I just noticed this today, and I can't figure out what's going on. It
 looks right in FF and IE8.  But in IE7, all the menu text is indented
 from the graphic.
 
 http://www.indiana.edu/~intlserv/

Can't analyze it in depth because scripts don't survive download, but
for IE7, add...

*:first-child+htmlbody div#menu ul.tree {
   float: left;
}

...to isolate outer ul containers from their parent - div#menu. That
will fix indentation/line-up in that IE version.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Top half of image map button not active in IE

2009-03-26 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Ian Piper wrote:

 http://www.tellura.co.uk/ruberyowen/contact-us.php

 On this page, if you look at the Rozone button (top right) it shows 
 an orange dotted border on hover, as it should. However in IE 6 under
  Windows 2000 and IE7 under Vista the top half of this button is not
  clickable.

IE's old stacking bug. Add...

#companies-location-map ul {position: relative;}

...to lift the entire ul with its absolute positioned children as one
layer, above the surrounding element layers.

regards
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Re: [css-d] Horizontal Navigation Bar Problem

2009-03-26 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Scott Gruber wrote:

 http://www.international.ucla.edu/

 On the top navigation bar the tabs fit nice an flush on pc browsers 
 (IE 7, IE8, Firefox, Chrome) but on Mac there there is spacing on the
  right of the About Us tab that doesn't stretch to fill the bar on
 the right side in Safari and Firefox.

Doesn't fit in any of my browsers on any Operating System, simply
because fit relies of font size. Has never worked and will never work,
regardless of how much detection and various stylesheets you apply.

If you want something to fit exactly anywhere: use fix-sized images.

regards
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Re: [css-d] max-width in Safari/IE

2009-03-23 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Jack Blankenships wrote:
 Apparently there was a table there as well, and max-width does not 
 apply to a table very nicely in Safari or Internet Explorer.  Can 
 anyone offer some more explanation on this?

Have only tested for CSS table a year or so back, and it's a known
behavior in Safari 3. I haven't tested how neither IE7 nor IE8 handles
max-width on HTML table, or how IE8 handles it on CSS table.

Some browsers seem to ignore min/max-width on table - which seems ok,
while others apply it - which also can be justified I think. So, I don't
think Safari and IE8 are wrong, or right, since min/max-width on table
seems to be in undefined or under-defined CSS territory.

regards
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Re: [css-d] max-width in Safari/IE

2009-03-23 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Jack Blankenships wrote:
 It seems to be that the table within the div or body element is 
 pushing the content out beyond the specified widths in Internet 
 Explorer. [...]

If you have problems: link to the case, page, you have problems with.
Bits of CSS don't make much sense without it.

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Re: [css-d] forcing IE6 to respect div width

2009-03-23 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Giuseppe Craparotta wrote:

 http://www.giuseppecraparottacv.co.uk/doubts/about.html

 Is it any way to force IE6 to consider the image as going out of the
 div's width instead of widening the div accordingly to it.

Yes. Declare overflow: hidden on container and position: relative on
overflowing content. Serve to IE6 only.

 If not I'll probably place the image out of the div, but this would
 be semantically incorrect, being the quote part of the copy.

Not sure how semantics would help here...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/gc/gc-screen.jpg
...but that, and a few other missing pieces...
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.giuseppecraparottacv.co.uk/doubts/about.html
...is another matter entirely.

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Georg
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Re: [css-d] David Laakso's site in Firefox 2.x/Firefox 3.x

2009-03-22 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
david wrote:

 I did with a Ctrl-click on the Reload button.

Should do the trick -- and does at my end.
I don't know what prevented expected functionality at your end.

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Re: [css-d] just center

2009-03-22 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
MEM wrote:

 I'm confused, what's going on on this code?

Simple logic, coded in jscript and expanded/explained here...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_20.html#item3
...and there's a link to Microsoft's information on the subject in my
page...
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533024.aspx

Beyond that I don't want to reiterate stuff from my two year old article
on how to use IE-expressions to overcome weaknesses in old IE's CSS
support. After all: Support for IE-expressions is discontinued in IE8 -
no need for it, and older IE versions that supports it are slowly
dropping in numbers.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] just center

2009-03-22 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
MEM wrote:
 Thanks for the IE8 info. I didn't know about that.

IE8 still supports IE-expressions in its two backwards compatibility
modes - emulating IE7 standard mode and IE5.5/6 quirks mode. No need to
hide them from IE8 in super-standard mode though, since it simply
ignores them then.
Most of what we can do with IE-expressions can be done in regular CSS
already - in supporting browsers, and new CSS functions like calc() will
improve things even more in the coming years.

 Please don't take me wrong: I was not putting the article in 
 question, neither trying to make you reiterate things that you have 
 written before.

Question all I write as much as you like, as I can't imagine any of it
being even remotely close to perfect.
In a few years probably most of what I've written about such
problem-solving in old browsers will be obsolete and should be deleted
anyway, as browsers slowly catch up with common standards.

 I was just asking for a clarification and trying to understand how 
 things really happen on that .js code.

Ok, I'll try. See below.

 But it was a too long pseudo-English e-mail from someone who doesn't 
 even properly know the language, and I assume my fault for some 
 miscomprehension that may have arrived.

Language isn't a problem here, despite the fact that English isn't my
native language. I'm Norwegian... :-)

I did however have a problem with you not being able to see that I've
avoided negative margin-top by simply setting the top-margin to zero if
it ever could become negative.

Blame my short response on the fact that I, as goes for many who have
been around on various lists and forums for a few years, has grown a bit
tired of continuous spoon feeding when I think the case has been made
clear enough already.
Such impatience and shortness may hit the wrong people at times - sorry.

 Despite the fact that that code will be deprecated sometime, I still 
 want to learn how to read it, but, as you stated, maybe I should 
 look elsewhere.

Most would read my IE-expression from a Javascript background, so a
person fluent in Javascript should be able to help you extract more details.

I have no real experience with Javascript, so I created the expression
based on simple logic that works in all programming languages. It was
just a question of getting the syntax right for the language at hand.
Microsoft's dynamic expressions are compact, but not very
straightforward to create or read IMO. Glad I won't have to write many,
if any, more of those.

---

The original problem was that a negative margin-top would obviously hide
the top of the container above viewport area, and that would be no
improvement over basic absolute positioning that many use for such
horizontal and vertical centering.
If that was good enough, then no IE-expression would be needed.

Avoiding a negative margin-top is the only slightly clever part in my
expression - and why I coded it.

In practice I'm dividing dimensions of body (equal to viewport) and the
centered element by 2, and subtract half of one from half of the
other to get the offset needed to get the vertical mid-point of the
element positioned in the vertical mid-point of viewport, *if* (and
only if) the viewport is tall enough to house the entire container.
If the viewport is too small for the element, I zero out margin-top so
the element stays inside viewport.



Hope that helps a bit.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] 3 columns of text, but MINIMAL wrapping, possible?

2009-03-22 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Scott Mueller wrote:

 The difficult part is that I want these columns to NOT wrap as much 
 as possible, spread across the width of the browser window and have 
 equal amounts of whitespace between.

 I know there's a display: table declaration, but I understand no IE 
 browsers pay attention to it...  maybe there's an IE hack for this?

IE8 has proper support for CSS table, and older IE versions can be
tricked...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_11h.html

However, problems arise when one wants source-ordering, table behavior
and old IE trickery all at once in a self-adjusting layout. Neither
HTML table nor CSS table permits real source-ordering, so you'll
probably end up with a complex solution to a small problem. I don't
think it's worth it for anything but proof of concept cases.

In real life I would forget source-ordering, and use a regular HTML
table for a case like yours, to achieve optimal fluidity without
premature wrapping, while avoiding problems with older IE versions' lack
of CSS table support.

You also have to take into account that text can/will be resized, which
in itself will complicate things enough if your case is supposed to work
across browser-land and various end-user options.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Site Check: Can this DIV be vertically centered in the viewport?

2009-03-21 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
David Laakso wrote:

 I built this site, http://www.isadoratang.com/index.php, but I've 
 been trying to determine if I can center the div id=page 
 vertically in the viewport.

 Yes, I think it is possible with CSS (I seem to recall a method Georg
  Sortun created but can't find it at the moment)  or possibly with 
 scripting. Although I am not so sure what vertical centering will buy
  you with a fixed height wrapper enclosing movable type. Try your 
 page at minimum font-size 24px in FF for example...

Demo with no declared height: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_15a.html

Article on how: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_20.html
...with more demos linked in.
(I'll have to update that article, as IE8 does of course line up
perfectly with the other CSS2.1 capable browsers.)

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] David Laakso's site in Firefox 2.x/Firefox 3.x

2009-03-21 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
david wrote:
 Looked at it in FF 3.0.4 on Linux with JS on. The first time I went 
 (with JS turned off) the About section was expanded. After I turned 
 JS on, the About section was collapsed, and clicking on About did 
 NOTHING beyond put a dotted horizontal line above and below it.

After changing preferences one also has to reload the page in that Gecko
for all preferences to work on it. Quite normal in many browsers.

http://www.chelseacreekstudio.com/yl/index.html works as expected - ok
- in all Geckos and a range of other browsers on Ubuntu.

regards
Molly 't.c.'
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Re: [css-d] Site Check: Can this DIV be vertically centered in the viewport?

2009-03-21 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Stephen Tang wrote:
 Will this work on a DIV with a declared height?  I'll see what 
 happens to my site when I remove my declared height on the DIV.

Check the demos (links on top of side column in my article), and, yes,
it'll work literally no matter what - when done right.

The advantage is that nothing will end up in unreachable places off
screen on small windows, since scrolling becomes active for the whole
page when necessary.

regards
Georg   
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Re: [css-d] New Member: wild card question

2009-03-21 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Dave Miers wrote:

 I often use a * {margin: 0; padding: 0; border: 0; } as a starting 
 point and for the most part saves me lots of extra css code, 
 headaches, and time for layout with great cross browser/platform 
 support. However  sometimes when entering content in what is 
 basically a template it would be nice to restore the defaults for 
 just one div, is there anyway to stop this from affecting a 
 particular div?

You can use the CSS3 negation pseudo-class to that effect...
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#negation
...but it won't work in any version of IE - yet.

Wouldn't be wise to use it anyway, since the defaults you want to keep
varies a bit (too much IMO) across browser-land. Better declare what you
want, where you want it.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] just center

2009-03-21 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
MEM wrote:

 The hard part on this is that, when I look the source code on this 
 last link, I get a lot of code that I don't get.

Ignore it, and use your own visual styling.

 Is this the reason why this link http://nuvemk.com/index4.html 
 doesn't show thinks centered on firefox?

Yes, since you can't see what's centered when you have no visual cues.

Here's how your page centers the centered container...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/mem/test_09_0321.html
...and I'd call that well centered in all directions.

The red border is there only as a visual cue. Works just as well without
that border, but white-on-white reveals no edges.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] just center

2009-03-21 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
MEM wrote:

 Ok. I have comment this two lines: Now it seems to work in FF.
 
 /*height: 20em; */ /*width: 30em; */
 
 If this is OK, I will try to understand the IE part now.

Height isn't needed but you'll need the width on #centered. Otherwise
you just get a container as wide as the viewport with centered text in
it. If that's what you want then it's ok, but I can't see the point.

For the IE part (for IE7 and older), you just have to read the article.
All about how it works is expanded and explained there.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] David Laakso's site in Firefox 2.x/Firefox 3.x

2009-03-20 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
David Laakso wrote:
 Stephen Tang wrote:

 http://www.chelseacreekstudio.com/yl/index.html

 Did you click the last list item about? If you did click it and 
 nothing happened, do you have javascript enabled?

FWIW, your menu works just fine with links, expansion / collapsing and
all, in all Gecko's I can lay my paws on ... all the way back to Mozilla
1.7.12 - Gecko/20050915.

regards
Molly 't.c.' ;-)
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Re: [css-d] Text breaking out in IE7

2009-03-20 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Del Wegener wrote:

 http://www.edi-cp.com/newweb/sandbox.php
 
 In FF the text wraps nicely. In IE7 it does not.  Padding on the left
 is ignored and wrapping is sometimes one word to late.

 What is needed to make IE7 play nicely?

IE7 does play nicely, but you have hacked in a failure :-)

Delete this hack...

*div#content
{  /* IE6 */
width: 100%;
}

...completely.

IE6 is in standards mode, so it shouldn't have such a correction in the
first place.
The way your hack is built it is also picked up by IE7, which causes the
problem.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] text wrapping problem

2009-03-19 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Bilgehan Maras, wrote:

 http://www.film.com.tr/listtest.html

 On firefox and safari everything is fine but as usual there is a 
 problem with IE 6 and IE7. IE wraps the text strangely.

Try adding...
li a {white-space : nowrap;}

Of course: your example doesn't look anything like your screenshots show
in any browsers at my end, since alignment is affected by font resizing
in browsers.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Equal heights solutions

2009-03-18 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
bruce.som...@web.de wrote:

  to suit the constraints of CSS implementations
 
 What is to be the successor to CSS that will actually solve the open 
 problems and enable web designers?

None, since this is about implementation.

CSS may need another level, or five, and will probably get them over
time. However, that in itself won't help much when it comes to
implementation in browsers. We need new generations of browsers and
eradication of the old ones. It is after all the old browsers - mainly
IE - that stand in the way.

So, ask the browser vendors and the end users to enable us, as they're
the only ones that can do it.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] 2 css interfering using conditional comments

2009-03-18 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
rose red wrote:

 I tried them every possible ( or did I forgot one ? ) way around the 
 last 10 days: [...] doesn't work ;-(

It does when done right. However, looking at your stylesheets it becomes
clear that you are trying to serve IE6 complete styles instead of just
corrections, so you are making it extremely complicated for yourself
and the chances of getting it wrong somewhere in those stylesheets is
extremely high.

More about that further down, after the specificity part.

 2: you may have to give styles in the IE6 stylesheet even higher 
 specificity, to make sure override takes effect.
 
 what do you precisely mean ? Do you have an example?

First: understand selector specificity.

In CSS standards dry but accurate language...
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cascade.html#specificity
...and in a more popularized form...
http://css-tricks.com/specifics-on-css-specificity/


To exemplify by using an arbitrary style declaration from your page. The
order of your stylesheet links is here as in your original, with IE6
styles linked in first.

In 'lte-ie6.css' you have...

#footer {   
position: relative;
/* more styles */
}

...while in 'sc-ie7.css' you have...

#footer {
position : fixed;
/* more styles */
}

Same selector (= same specificity) in both stylesheets, means the last
style declaration wins. IE6 doesn't understand 'position : fixed;' so it
will fail.

If I now change specificity for #footer in the 'lte-ie6.css' stylesheet,
so it becomes...

html body #footer { 
position: relative;
/* more styles */
}

In 'sc-ie7.css' you still have...

#footer {
position : fixed;
/* more styles */
}

The html body #footer selector in the first stylesheet points at the
same element as the one in the second stylesheet, but now with higher
selector specificity thanks to the html body addition from the
element-chain your markup has. So now the first style declaration wins
over the second, and IE6 will therefore see 'position: relative;' for
#footer.

---

IE6 needs corrections, *not* a complete stylesheet in addition to the
regular one, so you should therefore start with stylesheet links in the
right order, and a completely empty stylesheet for IE6.

IE6 will pick up all styles from the regular 'sc-ie7.css' stylesheet,
and only when IE6 gets it wrong do you add a style declaration in the
IE6 stylesheet - to correct IE6 on that point.

First let me clean up your #footer styles so they make more sense...

In the 'sc-ie7.css' you'll then have...

#footer {
position : fixed;
bottom : 0;
left : 0;
width : 100%;
height : 100px;
background-image : url(images/footer_grass.png);
background-repeat : repeat-x;
z-index : 9;
}

IE6 doesn't understand 'position: fixed', so in the 'lte-ie6.css'
stylesheet I write...

#footer {   
position: relative;
}

...and nothing more for #footer.

As long as the 'lte-ie6.css' stylesheet is linked in after the regular
'sc-ie7.css' stylesheet, IE6 will see all the other #footer styles, but
'position: fixed' will be overridden so IE6 only sees 'position: relative'.

This correction won't make IE6 handle the #footer the same way as the
other browsers do - IE6 doesn't understand 'position fixed' ... period.
The correction will only allow the #footer to be rendered where it is in
the markup in IE6, instead of IE6 trying to do fancy things with it.


The same with all other style declarations. First make it work flawless
in all browsers but IE6, and then correct what IE6 doesn't handle
correctly by serving IE6 _only_ the corrections it needs in order to
behave.
Remember: what IE6 can't do, it can't do no matter what. Thus, all you
can do it to make the most out of what IE6 _can_ do, and avoid its worst
weaknesses in the process.

Serving IE6 only corrections will cut the size of your 'lte-ie6.css'
stylesheet down to almost nothing, and give IE6 a chance to do what it
can with what it understands, without disturbing better browsers.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] WAS : Size calculations

2009-03-17 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Ib Jensen wrote:

 And changing em to % is a good idea ??

A safer idea.

Georg
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Re: [css-d] Display problems in Firefox

2009-03-16 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Ansari Samir wrote:

 Please visit the link for the display www.samruz.com/jb/PostJob.html 
 Please view the page in Firefox and IE to see the problem.

Replace...

#register_main_content {display: inline-table;}

...with...

#register_main_content {overflow: hidden;}

...and Gecko will line up those elements as intended.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] WAS : Size calculations

2009-03-16 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Ib Jensen wrote:

 http:/ikjensen.dk/test/
 
 
 Where is IE hiding the text ??

Stacked behind the page-background.

Add...

#menu-frame {position: relative;}

...to bring it up front.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Clear: Both DIV misbehaving in IE7

2009-03-16 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Chris Knowles wrote:

 This problem is only occurring in IE7, the page displays as I would
 expect in both FF3, Safari and Chrome.

Will need live example in order to debug. IE7 has too many clear related
bugs.

You can look for something similar to your problem, and possible
solutions to it, here...
http://www.brunildo.org/test/index.html

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Font size dilemma

2009-03-15 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
david wrote:

 I don't expect Office 2007 use to establish itself, but that's just 
 my opinion.

May well be right. For instance: OpenOffice is officially recommended as
alternative to / upgrade-replacement for MS Office(s) and other
proprietary office software in my country.


The bottom line for web designers is that no matter what range of fonts
an end-user may have access to, we can't know what that range is or what
fonts they'll allow/enforce for web sites.

Therefore we can't design with any specific font, or range of fonts, in
mind and expect our choices to get through to end-users. Tough, but
that's life on the web :-)


We should ideally make sure our creations come through in a reasonable
and readable fashion no matter what, which means (among other things)
that it is better, and safer, to size text to what some call too large
than to size it too small.

For some reason or another: all systems/browsers have a default of
exactly 100% (of some predefined value(s)), so a font-size of 100% can
be considered safe. In addition to that we have the WCAG 2
recommendation that our creations should be able to handle 200% font
resizing and still be readable/accessible, so there's our safe range.

Of course: no web designer really has to play it safe, and we're still
free to make up our own math and take our chances. We /may/ hit right
here and there now and then ;-)

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Font size dilemma

2009-03-15 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Tim Climis wrote:

 I have a related question, because when I first took up CSS in my 
 designs in 2002 or so, I used to size my fonts in points.  That was 
 what word processing programs did it in, so that was how I did it.
 
 I gradually learned through online reading that that was not the 
 right way to do it, and stopped, but I've never been able to figure 
 out why it's wrong in the first place.

It isn't wrong, but it cripples certain browsers and makes it harder
to apply reasonable end-user preferences in all browsers.

We refer to points for font sizing as part of the print on screen
philosophy, and print doesn't work all that well on all that many
screens - it belongs on paper and similar surfaces.

 Most graphic arts programs have the ability to guess the size of a 
 pixel on your monitor, presumably from your drivers or some setting 
 in your OS or something, so it seems that web browsers must be able 
 to do that same thing. So it stands to reason that if you want your 
 fonts to be 10pt (which is normal for print media) instead of 12 or 
 16pt (which is the common default size at the most common monitor 
 resolutions) why not just set the font size to 10pt? and then if you 
 have a 120dpi monitor, your browser knows that's 17px, and if you 
 have an old 72dpi monitor, your browser knows that's 10px.

The problem is complex but also quite simple.

We work with what we have and what we gonna get - pushed by ourselves
and those who build browsers and write standards, and, most important:
what the end-users are likely to have, or get within a reasonable
time-frame.

With way more than a billion end-user installations on line, we better
put emphasis on reasonable time-frame, as we will have to cater for
decade-old installations alongside the latest and greatest week-old
installations. Of course: we don't have to cater for old and new
installations in the same way, as long as we don't cripple any of them.


Practically:

1: screen-resolution is low compared to print-resolution - we need
300dpi on screens before we can call it acceptable.
Coarser steps makes it harder to make points - and any other unit - hit
screen-pixels exactly, and browsers round up/down at differing points.
This results in variations, that are much larger on screens than on print.

2: most graphic arts programs - or their users - solve this low
screen-resolution problem by resizing the entire project - zoom it, and
the artist then moves/scrolls parts into view while working.
Most browsers can do that too - now, but end-users are not _working_ on
the project - they _interact_ with it, and most end-users would prefer
to not have to scroll both ways just to be able to read and interact.

3: browsers have only recently started to take screen-resolution into
account and apply default-resizing. Not all browsers are there yet, and
those that are are not equally good at it.

4: end-users should be able to use their software - browser - to
re-format text to suit their needs/preferences. This is an advantage we
have in our digital age, and it would be sad if we limited and/or
crippled our software to frozen print now that we have finally gotten
out of it.

5: some browsers - IE - can't resize text where points or pixels are
used. The solution: ignore font sizes on web pages, doesn't solve the
designer's problem. Blame whoever you like, but the problem persists.


 And then it's no more illegible than a novel or a newspaper.

6: if a printed work has too small text, the end-user can either use a
magnifying glass or throw the entire work into the fireplace. Neither
are very practical when the work is on screens, but the end-user can of
course look for better options elsewhere on the world wide web. I can't
prove it but I think many do.


I derive from the above that it is better to conform to reality than to
apply wishful thinking (and mouse-type in points) now.
At the same time I test how much of my wishful thinking that actually
works anywhere, hoping I may be able to apply some of it tomorrow as I'd
hate being stuck in the past at every crossroad and turn of evolution.

regards
Georg
-- 
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [css-d] Size calculations

2009-03-15 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Ib Jensen wrote:

 How do I change these measurements to: em

What are those hypothetical '%' you want to convert to hypothetical
'em', relative to?

That is: what is your hypothetical 100% starting-width?
You can't convert anything to 'em' without having an absolute starting
point.

regards
Georg
-- 
http://www.gunlaug.no
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