-Caveat Lector- <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"> </A> -Cui Bono?- -----Original Message----- From: ali andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 11:09 PM Subject: Re: Building a Church on the Sabbath >This is a response from Ron Goins a Student of The Seven Seals living here >in Waco. > >READ! > >Andrew > > >-----Original Message----- >From: ron goins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; >[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 10:54 PM >Subject: Re: Building a Church on the Sabbath > > >> Peace and Blessings to all of an open mind; >> >> I've received this request by E-mail from an interested party and >thought >>to answer it in the most logical way. I am often a poor vessel for the >truth >>since I try to look at situations from many angles. >> >> >>>From: "John Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:36:42 -0600 >>> >>>So whats up with Andrew and this new church? What did he mean "the killers >>>of the children of Waco" and "the abomination that maketh desolate". Im >>>familiar with the verse. Not seeing the connection. ~ interested party. >IJN >> >> >> >> >> Well it's a long story starting with the personal relationship between >>Andrew and Clive Doyle,the interim leader of the survivors group in Waco. >> Andrew came to Waco in December of 1996 from Philadelphia, Pa. He has a >>long history of fighting authority (especially abusive authority). April 19 >>1993 was a traumatic date for this entire country but especially traumatic >>for those sensitive to issues of human rights and religious freedoms. All >of >>Andrew's circuits were fired that day , seeing men , women and children >>consumed in a fire after being held hostage 51 days by the armed forces of >>The Great Satan ,the U.S. government. Familiar with many aspects of >previous >>misdeeds of the past administrations and somewhat knowledgeable of >>comparative religion, Andrew made a study of this event. It would mark the >>rest of his life. >> I knew Andrew at this time and saw many of the same things and puzzled >>at the same mysteries. Why the raid ? Why the siege ? Why the assault? What >>had these people done to deserve this gross injustice? >> Andrew spoke often of finding out the facts regarding Waco, but like >must >>of us never made the trip down here to find out. Until an accident on his >>motorcycle left him injured and unemployed, Andrew probably would have >>worked and studied at home, but this accident was advantageous to Andrew's >>vision quest, and he decided to face his life and his life-long demons on >>the road. >> Upon Andrew'a arrival he was faced with not only his issues of personal >>survival , but with issues related to the conditions faced by the survivors >>and the land (Mt. Carmel) itself. He lived in his van, knew nobody, had >very >>little resources, but with will and determination he pitched in to the >lives >>of people he felt a strong common bond with. He worked on the land, >attended >>Sabbath meetings, guarded the often vandalized property overnight for weeks >>at a time. >>He had many questions at this time related to the history of the land, and >>the people who lived there. Not only the Branch Davidians but as far back >as >>the original native tribes. He brought these questions and more to the >>survivors. >> Andrew learned much in his research and in his studies with Clive Doyle >>(though Clive might say that Andrew came in with certain fixed ideas and >>chose what might fit them (also true), and was in constant debate with any >>and all he might talk to . >> So Andrew and Clive may have been called friends at that point. Of >course >>there will always be points of difference between friends, and they had >>many. >> One major difference was in the way each thought about the coming end >>times. Both believed that David Koresh was an anointed messenger of God, in >>the role of the Daily Sacrifice spoken of in Daniel. Clive, however did not >>find a way to apply the Bible prophecies to the current conditions other >>than to adopt a wait and see attitude. Andrew, not being a "wait and see" >>kind of guy, wanted to shout from the rooftops the truth as he sees it; >that >>the messiah long hoped for would be coming from Persia(Iran) to deal >>personally with the enemies of light (the New World Order of The Beast). >>David Koresh means Beloved Cyrus (of ancient Persia, who freed the captive >>Jews to rebuild Jerusalem). Andrew also holds to the time prophecies of >>Daniel, dealing with the cleansing, rebuilding, and eventual destruction of >>the temple due to the "over-spreading of abominations" therein. >> So, 1290 days passed with no sign, and also 1335 days. At the 2300 day >>point (from the taking away of the daily) no change, but soon (about 40 >days >>)September 15,1999 it was announced that a new "memorial chapel" would be >>built at Mt. Carmel.This was to be a good thing, but for certain >unfortunate >>circumstances. >> Some felt that the location of the chapel in it's original spot would be >>offensive to the memory of the martyrs, considering it to be a crime scene >>and thus an open wound not to be healed until the true judgement be made. >>All accepted the decision to build wherever, but with quiet reservations as >>to the soundness of it in the eyes of God. >> On Saturday September 18,1999, Clive announced to the Sabbath group that >>the building would commence the following day. He made mention of the fact >>that some workers had already arrived and had begun preparations (against >>his wishes), going so far as to measure and hammer stakes into the earth, >(a >>violation of God's command to remember the Sabbath Day and keep it Holy). >>This would be worrisome enough as an omen, but we (Andrew ,Peter ,and >>myself) found out that Clive himself has helped in the measuring of the >>dimensions of the chapel. In Clive's defence I would say that he may have >>been cornered into an unhappy compromise by the timing of the workers' >>arrival and the need for them to work as soon as possible on Sunday. >> Meanwhile, on Saturday night, Andrew discovered at Mt.Carmel the stakes >>and twine placed in the ground and pulled up most of them (a symbolic >>gesture).He also discovered an American flag hung there(an offence to the >>martyrs), which disappeared. Our study group arrived the next morning to >air >>our concerns over these issues and addressed Clive to that effect. Andrew >>opined that Clive should pull up the stakes remaining to undo the work (at >>least symbolicly) done on Sabbath. Clive was not receptive to that >>suggestion and felt that Andrew was being hostile and belligerent to the >>idea of any chapel on the site (not so ,Andrew would say).I myself felt >>grief at this impasse and wished for a compromise to enable this good work >>to go forward. I wanted a prayer to mourn our sins (of pride ,of >>rationalizing and justifying sin and accommodating strangers to build The >>Lords' house). Clive agreed to a prayer and we (Clive ,Charles Pace ,Andrew >>,Peter , and myself(Ron Goins)) knelt at the site .I don't remember much of >>the prayer itself but I do remember the rush of feelings, one after >another, >>going through me .We each prayed aloud and held our hands up to God in >hopes >>of His blessing. >> We rose and Andrew left to pick up his son so we all might find >Blessing >>in God's work. In the meantime the workers from Austin arrived and set up >>camp (including the raising of the American flag). >>I myself could understand how these volunteers felt about the flag and what >>it represents to the free citizen, but this same symbol was raised over Mt. >>Carmel while the bodies of eighty two of God's children lay smouldering >>beneath the debris. Andrew would have none of it, and said so on his >return. >>He was asked to leave and did so after a few choice remarks as to the >>character of the workers and Clive Doyle. >> Since that time the building has gone smoothly for the most part, >>excepting the visit by the KKK, and a peaceful protest on November 28,1999 >>by Andrew. He has come to believe that this is an abomination to God and at >>heart a cover-up of the facts involving who David was and his message. >> Andrew admits that he has a violent nature but has never physically >>attacked any member of the church. He feels he has often been provoked into >>a justifiable defense, sometimes a physical defense.In the many years I've >>known Andrew I've never seen him throw a punch, though I know his history . >> I am not of the same opinions as my friend Andrew, but I can see where >>he's coming from. He hasn't threatened to burn or destroy the church >himself >>, but sees that as the eventual outcome based on the Bible prophecies in >>Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Zechariah (and other prophetic books, >>including The Koran) >> I hope this goes some way towards answering your questions and I suggest >>that you talk to Andrew about some of the finer details of his thesis. >> >> In the Spirit of Truth >> yours truly, >> >> Ron Goins >> >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ======================================================================== Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ======================================================================== To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
