From: "Gregory or Cheryl Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> __________________________ > >Message: 13 > Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:10:28 -0800 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Timothy B. Carmain) >Subject: Fwd: [priory-of-sion] Re: HRH Prince Nicholas deVere > >I've finally managed to enlarge de Vere's genealogy from the Dragon Order >web page, and I must say it gets points for sheer inventiveness. Much of it >is absolutely certifiable, i.e the descent from Pepin III and the lineage of >the Earls of Oxford (with the possible exception of their descent from the >Tuatha de Danaan who are mythological beings). However, de Vere's line >seems to be grafted on circa 1139 with a younger son of Alberic de Vere, >Count of Guisnes by the name of Robert, who I can't seem to locate in my >usual sources. This Robert is purportedly the progenitor of the "Royal Vere >of Scotland" line (odd since I've never come across a reference to the de >Veres as kings of Scotland), wherein the name was corrupted to "Weir" some >centuries later. The unbroken line continues down to the present day >through various Lords Weir of Vere (?), who surprisingly aren't noted >anywhere in Burke's Peerage, Burke's Landed Gentry, Debrett's Peerage, or >Ruvigny's Titled Nobility of Europe. This, according to Prince Nicholas, is >the line of the Hereditary Dragon Lords of Sarkany Rend - but he stops short >of explaining how a Scots family (and the "Royal" family to boot!) came to >head up what he identifies elsewhere as a Hungarian order, established by a >German Emperor and consort of a Queen of Hungary who was herself of French >ancestry... 'tis a mystery still. The line culminates with "HRH The >Princeps Draconis, Nicholas II (?) de Vere, Sovereign Grand Master of the >Imperial and Royal Dragon Court, Sarkany Rend, Grand Master of the Knights >Templar, and HRH The Prince Drakenberg". It would appear that "Prince" >Michael and the Stewarts have been swept aside for the "Weir de Veres". > >I faxed these charts to a genealogist chum up in San Francisco, as he is >fairly up on his faux claimants as well. Surprisingly, my friend called me >to say that he had seen these charts before, although the "Weir de Vere" >surname was a new inclusion. He identified "Prince Nicholas" as one Tom >Weir, a Scotsman who at one time claimed that the Habsburgs were >illegitimate and that they had usurped the throne of the Holy Roman Empire >from the de Vere dynasty. Aside from the fact that it's a bit difficult to >usurp an elective throne, Mr. Weir's contention that the German "W" is >pronounced "V", thus Weir=Vere is a bit off. In German, "ei" is pronounced >as a long "i", thus if pronounced in German, "Weir" would be pronounced as >"Vire", rhyming with "fire". My colleague seems to think that the author of >these very imaginative charts is none other than "Sir" Laurence Gardner >himself, apparently a close associate of Mr. Weir. > >Tim Carmain > >Timothy B. Carmain >Business Manager, Mesa Court Housing >University of California, Irvine >(949) 824-7533 voice, (949) 824-3046 fax > Tim -- How valid then is the below in light of the above? ' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Clan Weir ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- The name Weir, like many lowland Scottish names, is of Norman origin from one or several of the places named Vere around the Calvados region of France. The word was introduced into Normandy by the Norsemen from their own word "ver" meaning a station. It appears that Ralph or Radulphus de Ver is the first of the name recorded in Scotland. He was taken prisoner along with Richard the Lion in 1174; he later witnessed a charter by King William I sometime between 1174 and 1184. During the same period he gifted a bovate of land in Sprouston, Roxburgh to the Abbey of Kelso; his brother, Robert de Ver, was a witness to this charter. The Weirs of Blackwood, Lanarkshire, claim their descent from this Ralph de Ver, although this cannot be proven as their name does not appear on record until 1400 when they acquired their lands. Other Weirs were vassals of the Abbots of Kelso and as such held extensive lands in Lesmahagow. Some of the MacNairs in Cowal anglisized their name to Weir or Veir, the Gaelic original being Mac Amhaoir; the "mh" is pronounced "v". MacAmhaoir has been extinct as a name for about two hundred years and the anglicization into Weir may well have contributed to its disappearance. William Weir was created 1st Viscount Weir in 1 938; he had been Secretary of State and Chairman of the Air Council in 1918 and industrial adviser to the Ottawa Conference in 1932. The best remembered of the Weirs is Major Thomas Weir of Kirktown c.1600-1670, the "Bowheaded Saint". Born in Lanarkshire, he was a lieutenant in the army sent by the Covenanters to protect the Ulster colonies in 1641. Later he was a major in Lanark's Regiment and was appointed to command the City Guard of Edinburgh. Outwardly he portrayed himself as a religious man, but was secretly addicted to various crimes and deviations. He confessed at the age of 70 and along with his sister was burned alive for witchcraft in 1670. Thanks to Ray Isbell for the following information Black's statement that Radulphus/Ralph de Vere was the first of the name in Scotland in 1174 is incorrect. He was at least the third generation. This is the correct information, from the following sources: Bernard Burke's THE COMMONERS OF GREAT BRITAIN & IRELAND, vol. III, pp. 319-22; Burke's EXTINCT & DORMANT BARONETCIES; PEERAGE & BARONETAGE (1970); and Burke's LANDED GENTRY OF IRELAND (1899), pp 475-6 and (1958) pp 474-5: Alberic de Vere (also called "Aubrey"), a descendant of a sister of the Emperor Charlemagne, came from Normandy to England, 1066; (it is assumed that a descendant of Alberic de Vere or one of his brothers who also went to England was:) BALTREDUS de Vere came to Scotland from England by 1165; his son, Walter de Vere, was the father of Robert and Radulphus: Radulph/Radulphus/"Ralph" de Vere who lived in Lanarkshire in 1296 (George Black incorrectly states he was on record in 1179, but has confused him with his grandfather's record, which actual date was more accurately 1165); Ralph was father of THOMAS de Vere, father of RICHARD de Vere/Were, father of THOMAS de Vere/Wer/Were, father of BUAN de Vere, father of ROTHALD (Rothaldus) de Vere/WEIR OF BLACKWOOD, 1398, Bailie of Lesmahagow, father of George and Thomas: THOMAS WERE/WEIR of Blackwood in 1432, father of ROBERT VERE/WEIR born about 1430, father of THOMAS WEIR born about 1460 who married 1483 Aegidia Somerville, daughter of the third Lord Somerville; had son JAMES WEIR OF BLACKWOOD (1495-1595) married Euphemia Hamilton. It is assumed that three of the maternal forebears of Thomas Weir (born 1460) included a Buchannan, McFarlane, and a MacNaughton. George Black's statement that the Weirs are not shown in the records before they obtained the lands of Blackwood, Lanarkshire, is not accepted by the greater authority, Sir Edmund Burke of Burke's Peerage. Further, the Veres/Weirs were in Lanarkshire as early as 1165, and all of them made donations to the abbots of Kelso as early as 1200s, and it was the abbots of Kelso who later conferred upon them the lands of Blackwood. The Weirs/Veres of Stonebyres and Archtyfardle and Mossmynemion were branches of the Weirs of Blackwood; indeed, Stonebyres estate was once part of the Blackwood estate. In the 1500s a century-old feud between the Weirs of Blackwood and their cousins the Veres of Stonebyres was ended when the Veres swore allegiance to Weir of Blackwood and acknowledged him their chief. A good reference source for the Weirs is the book THE UPPER WARD OF LANARKSHIRE (1864, Glasgow) by G.V. Irving, 2 volumes.' 'Clan Weir ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Tartan: Weir (also Hope-Vere) Motto: Vero nihil verius (Latin: Nothing is more true than the truth) Clan Information and Tartan Join your clan webboard system and message with fellow clan members and register under your clan. Septs: Clan Wier is also a sept of Clans Buchannan, McFarlane, and MacNaughton Spellings: Vere, Wier, Wear' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Vero nehil veris -- indeed! -- Yse ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.albino.com/circle/pos/ - list of priory-related books, associations, and websites .... to unsubscribe, contact list-managers [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
