[CTRL] Larry Flynt Stoned

1999-01-16 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

January 16, 1999


JOURNAL/ By FRANK RICH
Larry Flynt Stoned


We didn't need Larry Flynt to tell us that Bob Barr is a hypocrite. The
Georgia Congressman's sleazy marital history was already public back in '96
when he had the gall to champion an absurd bill called the Defense of Marriage
Act -- which that other proud defender of marriage, Bill Clinton, then signed
into law. But we may need Larry Flynt anyway -- not to expose any impeachment
manager's sex life but simply because his very presence exposes the
disingenuousness of everybody else, conservative and liberal, Republican and
Democrat, press and public, who inhabits the epic Bosch canvas that is
Monicagate. In the land of the pious hypocrite, the honest pornographer is
king.

After a year in which the President repeatedly told us he didn't have sex with
that woman, and his antagonists repeatedly told us that their case "is not
about sex," and the media constantly lamented how horribly sad they were to be
covering this sex-driven, albeit lucrative, story, Mr. Flynt's candor is
downright refreshing. In interviews, he refers to himself as a "smut
publisher" who wants "to sell [his] magazine," not a public-minded seeker of
truth. He openly declares his partisanship ("I love Clinton. He's a great
President.") and eagerly declares his hope to have "the effect of derailing
the impeachment process." The Hustler editor who serves as Mr. Flynt's
collaborator in tracking down Congressional trysts unabashedly describes their
enterprise as "vandalism," not journalism.

It is almost too delicious to watch Mr. Flynt throw his higher-minded
colleagues in the news business into conniptions. Washington's bloviator-in-
chief, David Broder, brooded on PBS about how "the mainstream press" is now
having its agenda set by "the bottom-feeders in our business" -- and yet he
works for the paper (The Washington Post) that first asked the adultery
question to a Presidential candidate (Gary Hart) and is a regular on "Meet the
Press," the first mainstream Sunday gabfest that made a panelist out of Matt
Drudge, the Clinton-haters' answer to Flynt (though not as factually
accurate).


Mr. Flynt's antics have similarly prompted many mainstream TV news outlets --
CNBC, ABC's "20/ 20," CNN, "CBS This Morning" -- to demonstrate yet again
that, for all their pious declarations to the contrary, the scandals they care
most about are those with sex.

The sexual allegations about Mr. Barr have received far more play than the
revelations of the Congressman's involvement with a white supremacist
organization -- much as TV pursued Monica rather than Clinton fund-raising and
wag-the-dog scandals, and largely ignored Henry Hyde's S.L. shenanigans and
Dan Burton's campaign-finance chicanery to air their sexual histories instead.
The viewing audience, which tells pollsters it's had enough sex, exercises its
own hypocrisy by rewarding Mr. Flynt's appearance on "Rivera Live" with the
show's highest rating since the O. J. civil verdict.

The other hypocrites unmasked by Mr. Flynt's pranks could fill a cabinet
department. It's hard to stop laughing when Dick Morris, who sucked
prostitutes' toes while on the White House payroll, decries the publisher for
"degrading American politics." Jerry Falwell, a past Flynt legal foe, now goes
on TV to condemn his old adversary's tactics -- never mind that Mr. Falwell
himself marketed a video accusing the President of murder.

Conservative politicians and publications that happily feasted on a tabloid's
purchase of Gennifer Flowers's revelations and the recent Drudge-spread hoax
about an illegitimate Clinton son are now fuming about Mr. Flynt. Liberals and
feminists who vehemently attacked a Hollywood film for ostensibly sanitizing
the Hustler publisher's odious depiction of women are curiously silent about
his pursuit of Barr  Co. As for the President, his spokesman, Joe Lockhart,
says that his boss wants Mr. Flynt to "cease and desist." Oh, puh-leeze!

Larry Flynt is a bull in the china shop of false pieties, empty pretensions
and sexual sermonizing that have brought us to this low moment in American
history. On Thursday, alas, he checked into a Los Angeles hospital with
pneumonia. The networks that have been broadcasting soap operas rather than
the Senate trial their anchors keep telling us is "historic" can only pray
that Mr. Flynt, who has it in his power to make impeachment must-see TV again,
gets well soon.

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Re: [CTRL] Striped Sleeves Mean Impeachment Is Military?

1999-01-16 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/15/99 3:57:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  Contacted  by  CNNS,   Mr.   Skolnick   further  noted  that  the
  striped-sleeve style of judicial robe was *de  rigueur*  in  Nazi
  Germany.

We should not be tempted by this morsel.  It is tempting because Mr. Rhenquist
got his start in the Republican party by intimidating blacks and Hispanics
from voting.

However, the level of the proceeding has been drenched in pomposity to date as
though the Republicans are desperate in making themselves appear sober rather
than the vengeful little twits attempting to overthrow a government that they
are.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Larry Flynt SLEAZEBALL?

1999-01-16 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/16/99 3:07:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

   What is still not undersood is so far NO Republicans have lied under oath

So that's what i've been missing!  Darn.

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Re: [CTRL] Larry Flynt SLEAZEBALL?

1999-01-15 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/15/99 10:44:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 And I
  know you're a total pussy because the last time I challenged you on this
  list, you backed down like a whipped dog! Keep your facile and juvenile
  opinions to yourself, unless you're enough of a man to back them up.

Jeremy,

I will condescend to reply to your insolent post but do not think that i have
any obligation to correspond with a midget like yourself.  The reason that you
are a pathetic mindless little boy pretending to be one of the boys and full
of machismo is that you publicly and, presumably, proudly use an insensitive
and offensive characterization for a disabled man.  He is now spending a
considerable fortune to inform the rest of us of the degree of hypocrisy in
the accusers President Clinton.  In other words, Flynt is doing a good thing.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Larry Flynt SLEAZEBALL?

1999-01-15 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/15/99 1:55:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 you have the gall to attack my intelligence

Calm down and take your medication, Jeremy.  Just one question, young man.
Have you ever been institutionalized?

Your friend
Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Rehnquist Struts Latest Style In Judicial Robes]

1999-01-14 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/13/99 5:43:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 If you
  recall the old westerns when the US cavalry showed up they all had gold
  braids on the trumpet, flag, and on the shoulders. We know for certain
  that they were under martial law, for the federal government was
  governing the territories directly previous to them entering as states.

Are you serious?

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Re: [CTRL] Fw: Torture in Israel - MER FlashBack

1999-01-14 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/13/99 7:45:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Any credibility here?

Could be, Alamaine.  Our own troops were dropping VC out of choppers to
encourage other VC to talk.  And that was when we had nothing on the line.
The Israelis have plenty on the line.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Larry Flynt on C-SPAN tonight.

1999-01-14 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/14/99 6:25:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 In a message dated 1/13/99 10:41:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I am curious.  Do you think the liberal left would mind  some
  conservative
   dude
   said he would put up 1 million dollars for information about the Democrats
  and
   their sex lives?

Kenneth Starr has already spent $40 million to get the sexual goods on
President Clinton.

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Re: [CTRL] Larry Flynt SLEAZEBALL?

1999-01-14 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/14/99 10:59:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Larry Flynt is a mushmouthed cripple

The neonazis just can't help themselves.

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Re: [CTRL] Notice from Joshua Report

1999-01-13 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/12/99 7:44:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 My husband's name is appropriate: Michael is the Chief Archangel of
  God, who "contends with the devil"]

Please.

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Re: [CTRL] Greatest Generation of Collectivist Fools!

1999-01-13 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/12/99 8:48:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, lloyd@A-
ALBIONIC.COM writes:


  What crap!  The World War II generation:  traumatized and buffaloed by the
  depression in Roosevelt's fascist New Deal and then tricked by the simple
  minded Pearl Harbor strategem into the useless slaughter of WWII

Wow, that mean old FDR was pretty tricky OK.  Imagine how he suckered the
Japanese to invade Singapore, Indonesia, Indochina, Burma etc.  Did Roosevelt
also trick the Japanese into invading Manchuria in 1931?

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Re: [CTRL] Rehnquist Struts Latest Style In Judicial Robes

1999-01-13 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/12/99 9:22:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

  According to Skolnick's recollection, a similar
  striped-sleeve judicial robe was worn  by judges in Nazi Germany.
  "Is it fashion, or fascism?" he asks.

I was reading when the trial began and was startled to hear some of the words
on the TV such as "hear ye, hear ye"  and "on pain of imprisonment."  My God,
it sounded like high school kids in a play.  Are the HypocriticalRepublicans
(one word) trying to impress us boobs with high sounding rhetoric?  They
should know that it is much too late for that.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Larry Flynt on C-SPAN tonight.

1999-01-13 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/12/99 9:25:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  ...Larry Flynt is anything but a sleazeball. He's a true champion of the
1st
  Amendment and is simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the radical right.
  Cheers to Larry! Keep up the fight!

I agree.  Flynt has apparently been addicted to sex in the past but he is now
serving the national interest.

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Re: [CTRL] William: Larry Flynt on C-SPAN tonight.

1999-01-13 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/12/99 10:48:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  Well, you have every right to be.  Jabba the Flynt didn't get very much for
  his million, did he.

He did get that Bob "family values" Barr repeatedly took the 5th when asked
about adultery and about his hand in his wife's abortion.

Jerry

PS Flynt has 8 investigations still going.  He says the Republican Party will
be devastated if they come to fruition.  We'll see, they may not come to
anything more than the charges of the 13 year old boy being Clinton's son.
Has anyone at all apologized for this story being broadcast throughout the
mainstream media yet?

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Re: [CTRL] Ecstasy Prozac (The Economist)

1999-01-12 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/11/99 7:19:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 So, when Calvinists ask if people taking Prozac to
  eliminate elements of their personalities, such as shyness, is so
  very far removed from the recreational use of ecstasy, the answer
  appears to be "no".

I have long suspected that the reason the ruling elites ban all mind altering
drugs and not just the harmful ones is that they fear that people will come to
realize that although we live in a democracy, the opinions and well being of
the majority doesn't seem to matter.  People might get wise to the strange
notion that our young men should fight in wars that don't make sense, or that
the ever growing income/welath gap is not just or that our ruling elites are
not only not endowed with any particular wisdom but that through the highly
controlled mainstream media, we are manipulated and kept in the dark.

It has been said that if you have a gross of eggs, you may sort them according
to size or color or place them into various layouts.  But if the eggs ever
hatch, you have a problem.  Drugs are not necessarily a good thing in
all/most/any cases, but IMO they are viewed as  a threat in terms of hatching
power, i.e. in terms of people realizing their own authority.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Vive La France!]

1999-01-12 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/11/99 8:51:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Having lived and studied among the natives thereof, I gained a different
  sense of perspective.

Thank you, Alamaine, for lifting this thread from the immature and silly to
the mature and refined.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Republican Hate Rhetoric Turns Deadly

1999-01-12 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/12/99 9:27:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  MJ:
  While the conclusion may or may NOT be true [cause], what exactly
  makes the muder of an individual within a 'protected' group WORSE
  than the murder of some other individual?

Yes, murder is murder and the US murder statistics stand out like a malignant
cancer.  The extreme right wing hate mongers have so many reason and excuses
for violence that it is astounding.  Bob Grant, Rush, Limbaugh, G. Gordon
Liddy and others give us more daily.  The hate murder is unique in motivation
because it is not based upon some twisted notion of benefiting oneself.  It is
based upon the absurd notion that certain groups, who do not harm other, are
intrinsically evil so that one is justified before God and right thinking
people for killing this person(s).  Of course, those who encourage such action
obviously bear some measure of responsibility.  Even if such creatures as Bob
Grant sincerely believe that they have some special role in helping to
eliminate homosexuals, i.e. even if they are completely insane, it does not
exonerate them from their responsibility to meet the natural requirements of
courtesy, respect, and tolerance for others that living in a democratic civil
society entails.

  Would any robbery be a 'hate crime' since the perpetrator most
  certainly 'hates' 'rich people'.

This statement does not make sense.

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Re: [CTRL] Larry Flynt on C-SPAN tonight.

1999-01-12 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/11/99 5:43:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  According to WCNN, Atlanta, Whitehouse lap dog, Larry Flynt, will be giving
  an exclusive press conference on C-SPAN tonight at 8:00 PM Pacific Time.
  Check your local guides to be sure of the times.

Sorry to hear that he wasn't given air time.  Mustn't upset the right-wing
freaks by exposing their hypocrisy.  On the local TV news, it was stated that
Bob "family values" Barr was accused with shacking up with his third wife
while he was still married to his second wife.  There was also some he
said/she said regarding the abortion.  Regarding another self righteous but
unnamed Republican, it was said that he routinely visited the brothels along
the Mexican border.  One hopes he doesn't have too many STDs.  Let's hope, the
elites are not able to continue the news block.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Re: [CTRL] Worst Newspaper in America

1999-01-12 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/12/99 5:30:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  "I said I would give a lot of
  money to education, children, the homeless, that sort of thing," he
  recalls. "Then I mentioned that if there were any money left over I would
  start what this city really needs -- a competing daily newspaper to The
  Daily Oklahoman . . . Well, everyone just started applauding. The place
  went wild. And this is not a wild church. Even the Republicans were
  clapping."

Yeah, i lived in OK for over 13 years and have to agree.  (the prize for how
the might have fallen would go to the Washington Post).  Frosty Troy, owner
and editor of the Oklahoma Observer, perhaps the sole liberal voice in OK,
used to rave over egregious examples of goofy stories and statements by the
owner of the Daily Oklahoman.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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[CTRL] Republican Hate Rhetoric Turns Deadly

1999-01-11 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

Tom J. Wright
A Semi-Weekly Column of Political Commentary
January 1-January 15, 1999

Republican Hate Rhetoric Turns Deadly:
Somebody Stop Them Before They Kill Again


"Brains you know, are suspect in the Republican Party."

--Walter Lippmann,  famous American political commentator, December 14, 1974


"Indeed there are some Republicans I would trust with anything-anything, that
is, except public office."

--Adlai Stevenson, Jr. during a Presidential campaign speech in Springfield,
Illinois, August 14, 1952



Although overshadowed lately by MonicaGate, the brutal beating and killing
of gay University of Wyoming student Matthew Shepard, shocked the nation and
disgusted people around the world.  The barbarity of the murderers, who tied
Matthew Shepard to a fence and beat him to death with the butts of their guns,
was stunning.

This vicious murder was motivated in large part, perhaps entirely, by the
radical homophobia of the two men who killed him.  Matthew Shepard lost his
life simply because he was gay.

Many other instances of homophobic acts of violence, here in the United
States especially,  have occurred as well.  Also, hate crimes in general are
on the rise across the country.  An obvious question arises:  Why has
homophobic violence, and many other kinds of hate crimes, been rising so
dramatically?  And why have the intensity and ferocity of that violence become
so extreme?

The increase in hate crimes is a direct result of the increase in hate
rhetoric.  And we all know who the masters of hate are:  the hard core
Republican right wing.  These lunatics spew out hate the way an open sewer
spews out raw sewage.

Here are just a few disgusting examples of Republicans at work:
Conservative New York radio commentator Bob Grant once said, on the air to
millions of listeners, that he wished that police had machine-gunned New York
City's gay pride marchers during a 1994 parade.  Grant also told one
disaffected listener of his show, who was angry about one minority or another,
to "Well, get a gun and go do something, then."

Republican Senator Trent Lott called homosexuality a "disease", like
kleptomania.   Radical Republican conservative Congressman Dick Armey called
fellow Congressman Barney Frank, "Barney Fag", then claimed it was a slip of
the tongue.  Right wing nutcase and Republican party BigWig Pat Robertson
stated that Disney World in Orlando, Florida would be struck by some
catastrophe because it didn't properly discriminate against gay people the way
he does.

The list goes on and on.  The Republican Party has turned hate and
scapegoating and fearmongering into a science.  It's what they are good at
doing.  It's what they do best.  And boy, are they proud of it.

But so far, no one has forced conservatives to take responsibility for
their hate rhetoric.  This certainly includes the media, which of course is
itself mostly right wing.  How else do you think sick bastards like the
aforementioned Bob Grant, Hitler-wannabee Pat Buchanan, the loony Nixonite G.
Gordon Liddy, and all of their right wing clones throughout the country, ever
get on the air?  It ain't accidental, folks.

Well, it is time for the American People to hold the Republicans, and
their mouthpieces in the media, personally accountable for their outrageous
scapegoating, inflammatory rhetoric, manipulative scare tactics, and the
violence that inevitably follows.  These spewers of hate must be stopped
before they kill again.

But we have to act quickly, because make no mistake about it, the
Republican Party is a very dangerous organization, full of hubris, hyper-
conservative dementia, and a ton of $$money$$.  This ill-begotten monster was
born with the rise to power of that famous loon Ronald "Bedtime For Bonzo"
Reagan, and it's been growing ever since.

The best way to stop it and these people behind it, is to vote the
Republican Party out of office.  And out of existence.  Like the Whigs of
yesteryear, it is time for the Republican Party to die.  It is too infested
with fanatics to be saved.  Just put the thing out of its misery, for God's
sake.  That will leave us with the Corporate Democrats on the right,
Progressives on the center left, and Libertarians somewhere in between.

Also, a sincere letter of apology, signed by conservatives everywhere,
should be promptly submitted to the American People, and put on display in
Washington D.C.  The display will serve to remind potential hatemongers
everywhere that they will endure Great Pain, Suffering, and Humiliation, if
they ever again attempt such crude tactics.

Not only that, if the likes of Bob Grant or his ilk ever openly encourage
violence against innocent citizens again, and said violence occurs, then the
District Attorney of the county in which the incitement to violence was made,
should promptly prosecute them as criminals, for aiding and abetting a crime.

You won't believe how quickly these 

Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

1999-01-11 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/10/99 10:23:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 There are two rather
  interesting photographs related to the CSA prison camp in Tyler, Texas
(Camp
  Ford).  One shows a group of prisoners photographed upon their departure
 from
  prison.. They were all dressed rather nattily, with frock coats, ties,
  "plantation" hats, etc.  In fact, they "could have been dressed for the
ball.
 "

Shame on you, Hawk.  Have you never heard of Potemkin Village?

I think that the distance between us on how the slaves lived and were treated
is due to two things.

The living conditions and psychological environment of the slaves varied
enormously between regions and plantations.

I place greater credence in the slaves themselves as to what their lives were
like.  During the 1950s and 1960s when the South was being weaned from Jim
Crow, it was common for Southern apologists to say things like "Some of my
best friends..." or "We all got along fine here until those outsiders began
stirring things up."  [My wife attended a YWCA in the South during this time.
When she and a friend arrived by car to the motel of a small town on their
trip, they were frightened by the paranoia of the folks in the motel lobby.
Many questions aimed at determining whether the travelers were there "to stir
up trouble."]

The apologists for slavery in the US are hardly alone, the phenomena is common
enough.  For instance, i have no doubt that if we asked the Japanese who
participated in the POW camps where American prisoners were held how the
prisoners were treated.  They would assure the questioner that the treatment
was fair and reasonable.  My recollection is that Americans died in the
Japanese POW camps at a rate 8 times greater than they died in the camps of
Nazi Germany.  Nothing is more enlightening on this issue than to read Bataan
Death March which lets the American prisoners speak for themselves.

Likewise the ex-slaves speak for themselves.  Their opinions vary considerably
but overall the picture emerges of mostly semi-isolated lives on plantations
of fewer than 10 slaves having brutal lives of onerous labor in the fields
with no regard shown for families or respect for person.  Yes, there are
exceptions, such as owner buying a comely mulatto girl who could sew after a
fashion and taking her back home, installing her in a bedroom with a a needle
and thread and announcing to the Mrs. that they had a new seamstress.  This
was hardly a good life for either the slave girl or the mistress but i suppose
you could contend that it was a pleasant life of ease if your thinking allows
it.

Jerry

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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

1999-01-10 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/9/99 7:55:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 I was raised in the old South in Claxton, Georgia 1941-1949 and I can tell
 you from personal
  experience that the old South I experienced respected everyone.

Your post is disconnected from reality.  You and Howard have shared your
fantasy but it doesn't wash.  When southern blacks with a number of
participating whites began the freedom bus rides and sin-ins during the 1950s
and 1960s, they were a threat to most of the quaint gentle white folk of the
South.  That's why so many of the marchers and bus riders and sit-in people
were beaten, sometimes so bad that they were maimed, sometimes even killed but
most were simply hosed or had police dogs sicked on them or were beaten with
night sticks and jailed.  Reality may not be pretty but if you face it you
don't have to defend something that never was.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

1999-01-10 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/9/99 12:51:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  Now, I been a-thinkin', Lord have mercy, I can create a list that will
 recieve
  all posts from CTRL and will be open for more discussion and chat.


Sounds good to me.  Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

1999-01-10 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/8/99 6:23:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Sometimes people
  would rather "be taken care of" than face life's uncertainties armed only
 with
  their own skills and decision-making abilities.

Welcome back, Hawk.  Many of us missed hearing your arguments however we
disagreed because your supporting evidence offered something to get one's
teeth into.

I'm not sure what to say regarding your remarks concerning the scriptures
since, apparently, some are grievously offended by any mention of spiritual or
moral matters - at least they are offended when scriptures are referenced as
opposed to, say, Urantia channeled baloney.  I will only point out that we are
directed away from legalism and toward general principles so i am puzzled by
your statement that the principles cannot be applied in the specific.  It
seems to me that they could then never be applied.

I am reminded of something a priest said at a class for the general public on
biblical exegesis.  The priest was British and supposedly a scholar of
considerable talent.  (Incidentally, this class was free, a not uncommon event
in those days of the 60s.)  He sarcastically said that whenever the
bureaucrats or politicians of Britain commented on the golden rule and other
such, they would say, "Well, that's all well and good but one cannot run an
empire on ideals."  Of course, at this time the empire had already dissolved.

You speak of the slave mentality and i know that it lives in many people.
However, IMO the root of it is in oppression.  When folks get so frustrated
and despair of being allowed to do, they sometimes sort of give up and go
along with the notion that if something good is going to happen, it must come
from massah (the corporation, government, church, et al).   Of course this is
not confined to actual ex-slaves.

You ask about what state had the removal of thumbs as punishment for learning
to read.  The plantations were in the bush.  The law was massah and vice
versa.  When you read the narratives of the ex-slaves your eyes are opened.
The law is irrelevant when it is not available and when the entire economy
depended upon supporting massah's heroic efforts to keep everyone in their
place.

Literate thinking slaves are an obvious threat.  Why do you think our own news
media is so carefully controlled?  The weak spot in the plantation was the
owner's children, their eagerness to share what they know and show off at the
same time.  When a slave learned to read, he taught others.  When a plantation
had more than, say, a score of slaves, they would meet at night in culverts or
ditches with the overhead covered with branches and twigs.  They told each
other about what was going on, 10 pair of eyes in different places could see a
lot.   With good fortune, one would teach reading.  When a slave stopped
overnight attached to plantation visitors, they could hear about things far
away and give information in return.  These underground schools were vital to
the encouragement that comes from camaraderie.

The above remark applies to prayer also.  Bear in mind that each plantation
had its own way to deal with issues in the slave community, namely massah's
way.  A few, especially the large plantations with hundreds of slaves,  were
relatively liberal and followed their own house rules fairly consistently.
Jefferson Davis ran one of these operations.  Most plantation owners were
rather harsh.  Economics led the most intelligent owners to give their slaves
just enough sustenance and rest to maintain the work.  The photographs of the
slaves tell the story by their faces.

Jerry

Apparently, many of the owners were as ignorant as the slaves about prayer.
It was common for owners to forbid prayer, possibly because they did not want
their slaves to have either hope or comfort or maybe because the owners really
were nervous about the slaves communicating with the living god.  The slaves,
who like the owners apparently never heard of silent prayer or believed it
ineffective, would speak their prayers into a tub of water to muffle it.

Jerry

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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Hawk et al

1999-01-09 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/9/99 6:11:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Hawk really had what was coming to him. I also agree that William 'egged'
him
 on

If any person disagrees with a defender of slavery, does that disagreement
constitute egging on?

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

1999-01-09 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/9/99 12:36:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  Hawk was not put on 'no post' for 'baiting or flaming, but my own personal
  distaste for bible-thumping slavery apologists. Historical
  outlooks/discussions buttressed by bibical 'infalliabilty and
interpretation"

  are futile and a waste of time. MHO


I agree with all that you state.  Hawk causes my hair to rise straight up, the
man is more than a little wrong headed.

However, variety in opinion is a good thing because it forces some of us to
clearly state why we are opposed to that which is anathema to us.  If you
don't push Hawk, he remains fairly courteous.  I wish to add my voice to
Tunstall and Shrum in suggesting that although Hawk's temporary (?) exile was
probably a good thing for him, it will be good for all of us if he is now let
back in.  CTRL is a marvelous forum, maintained at no small price by RoadsEnd.
One hears (ok, reads) things here that are essentially forbidden in the
mainstream media.  I understand that folks like the butterfly should be given
the boot because they are incoherent and obviously insane.  Hawk has his head
on backward but he will state chapter and verse for his opinions (thereby
revealing that civilization requires more than "just the facts, mam").  In his
own way he makes us think anew and thus adds to the CTRL goal of freeing
through the truth.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

1999-01-08 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/8/99 1:16:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 My
  understanding of law has lead me to believe that the southern states had
  the legal right to leave the union and that they did so lawfully. As I
  stated, the Supreme Court of the time was probably in agreement with
  this position. It was Lincoln and others in the northern states who
  ignored their oathes to the Constitution.

Suppose that you are quite correct in saying that Jefferson Davis, Stonewall
Jackson, Robert E. etc.  were strictly legal.  What you are missing is that
more is involved with every man's actions than legality, or for that matter,
profit.  These men in high leadership positions knew this.  What motivated
them.  They did not perform an act merely because it was legal, i.e. they did
not act arbitrarily.

They joined in the Confederacy because it stood for their way of seeing, their
way of living.  That way was based upon slavery.  The Southern leadership
could not stay in the Union without accepting a gradual change over in the
dirty little condition that made their way possible.  The North was not going
to accept additional slave states and the opposition to slavery was growing.

It was much like those doors in Deuteronomy, one leads to life and one leads
to death.  The strange thing is that the doors are very well marked.  No
mistake is possible.  Many white people in the South chose life but most of
the leaders chose death.  To be sure, choosing life is emotional; that's
because our deepest values are emotional issues with us.  The sin of keeping
people enslaved is emotional.  The slavers may taunt those who vote for
freedom as being emotional but those who would even defend slavery, much less
practice it, are also being emotional.  Part of their dysfunction is that they
must pretend to a strange machismo of the psyche.

Incidentally, in an earlier posting someone referred to the reluctance of some
of the ex-slaves to their new situation and even persistent opinion that the
old slave times were preferable.  It was sort of like the Israelis coming out
of the land of fleshpots.  Some weren't so sure.  Many of the slaves of Dixie
were dismissed from the plantations at war's end because it simply was not
profitable for the planters to keep them on.  These, now vagabonds, newly
freed illiterate blacks lined the roads in their trek north to find work.
They had only the clothes on their backs (few received 40 and a mule).  Some
died on the way but others made it to partly fuel the latter part of the
industrialization of America.

Most freed slaves far preferred their freedom but a few never obtained a
decent life and actually remembered their slavery as a better time.  Even with
the night patrols, the removal of thumbs for the crime of learning to read,
the forbiddance of prayer, and the merciless beatings when they took a bit of
extra nourishment, the commonplace forcible sex by massah and supervisors of
the slave women and, if these times are any guide, of boys and girls as well,
the fleshpots glowed in their remembrance.  Think of the filthy crimes
committed today for those fleshpots, the dismemberment of companies along with
massive disruption in lives, the unnecessary wars in Vietnam, Panama, the
Gulf, Grenada, Somalia.  Freedom came in second when we overthrew democracies
in Iran, Guatemala, Chile and installed criminal governments.  Man, how do we
free ourselves of this sort of blindness?

Jerry

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[CTRL] Weekly earnings

1999-01-07 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

Someone asked, in response to a post of mine, whether the average weekly
earnings
figures in $1982 that were stated were for manufacturing employees only.  I
deleted the post before i thought to reply but the answer is that they are for
total private nonfarm workers.  In other words the government and farm sectors
are excluded but all other sectors are included.  You can check the data at
A HREF="http://146.142.4.24/cgi-bin/surveymost?ee"this BLS site/A.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

1999-01-07 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/6/99 4:04:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Anyone
  who understands the bible (which I allow as the only reliable source of
 determining "good" and "evil"),
  should quickly pick up on the idea that God does not consider the
 institution of slavery as evil.  And
  if God doesn't consider it evil, then I certainly am not going to condemn
 HIM for His position on it.
  It is clear from the Bible that involuntary servitude is not preferable in
 many cases, but it is not
  condemned.

The Fundamentalist's bible says "Holy Bible" on the front cover.  Many folks
don't know that on the back cover, in invisible ink, it says "Unholy Babble."
The Fundamentalists read the unholy babble.  The unholy babble is read
backwards and many confused conclusions are drawn from it.

The bible is practically a paean to freedom.  Look up "freedom" and "liberty"
in a concordance and you will be drowned in references.  No, my friend, the
verses do not exalt slavery or bondage but freedom.  Look up slavery and
bondage and the references, with one exception, speak disparagingly and
sometimes alarmingly of these.  The exception is that we are urged to be
slaves or bondsmen to God so that we never think of ourselves as in servitude
to others.  My God, man, wake up!  You are living in a delusionary world.
Seek help.  Save yourself.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Email #2, About Indian Population

1999-01-07 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/7/99 1:39:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 the estimates as ranging from the lower end of the scale
  with Kroeber (1939) at some 9,000,000 Indians to the highest estimate
  12,000,000 Dobyns (1966) with Dobyns being considered by far the more
  inflationary scholar.  The chart is actually solidly placed as far as
  estimates go -- all the scholars except for Dobyns fall within the range
  of 1-3 million indigenous population in North America in A.D. 1500 with
  nearly 8 of the scholars citing a figure at about one million maximum.
  North America is defined as including Canada, U.S., and Arctic.

I' a bit confused.  Does the 9-12 million range pertain to extant populations
while the 1-3 million applies to 1500?  Is the existing population not known
to a fair degree of accuracy from census figures?  What am i missing here?
Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Fwd: TV Kidz

1999-01-07 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/7/99 1:43:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  Linda Shafran, a publicist for the Springer show, said she could not recall
  any show on the topic of incest.

  ``We have never had a show that is even remotely close to this situation,
 and
  unfortunately there are situations in the world for which we are blamed,''
 she
  said.


Sounds like watching the Springer show is being used as a false excuse for
these brats.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] The level of chattiness and civility are getting quite ...

1999-01-07 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/7/99 2:33:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 PLEASE, let us focus on the
  subject at hand.

Allow me to be the first to second RoadEnd's suggestion.  I am might tired of
reading all the Clinton bashing and neofascist blather.  Let's be reasonable
people expressing reasonable opinions.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

1999-01-07 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/7/99 5:38:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Most plantations had land set aside for the slaves in which they could
 conduct their
  own personal farming operations, and the proceeds were used either directly
 or sold
  for their personal benefit.

Isn't it strange that the slaves did not seem to be aware of this.  Instead,
their own narratives show that they were given the worst portions of
slaughtered animals and the lowest quality fruits and vegetables of the
harvest.  Inner city meat cut availability in the markets indicate that this
heritage of eating animal parts spurned by the slavers has become a preferred
meat selection.  The slaves didn't need land set aside for themselves because
the relatively small plantation operations, which owned most of the slaves,
numbering fewer than 10 for the most part, grew their own food and raised
their own slaughter stock as did farmers generally up to about the 1940s.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men

1999-01-06 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/5/99 6:05:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 the nation
  and the south and even the black population of the south would probably
  have been better off if Lincoln had not forced the south through
  military means back into the union.

You don't seem
to understand much about human nature.  Slavery was not just an economic
issue.
It was a way of life and cheap self esteem.  It was the dark pleasure of
having absolute power over others.  Slavery had deeply corrupted the South.
To think that the results of slavery were typically benign or even neutral is
fantasy.  It is also naive to think that the slave
masters would ever have voluntarily given up their corrupt power.  Don't just
focus  on  the shallow economics oriented histories, consider and read about
the social/psychological realities.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men

1999-01-06 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/5/99 6:24:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

  I was trying to
  show that overall there has been a growth in population so that the
  losses have been greatly overwhelmed by the increases.

Hey, kill a few, grow more.  It all evens out.



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Re: [CTRL] Roman Jews In America: 775 A.D.?

1999-01-06 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/6/99 9:20:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  I chanced across the article below while going through
  old New York Times from year 1925. It suggests a different
  history of the American continent than is usually supposed.

Thanks for posting this, Brian.  I am driven nuts by sitting here trying to
think of the names of two books written about or by a New Zealand fellow who
amassed considerable evidence that various ancient people, including
Egyptians, Sumerians, and Romans, were in North America.  I think his last
name was Feller.  A title that sticks in my mind is America BC.  However, when
i tried to look it up at amazon.com, the search came up empty.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

1999-01-06 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/6/99 10:18:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The last American soldiers to fight for "freedom" were
  Confederate soldiers.

You're just confused.  The Confederate soldiers were fighting for slavery.
Some understood this and other, like yourself, didn't.  The South was
prostrate before evil.  Say it with me, "Thank you, God, for Lincoln and thank
you for the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s and thank you, Jesus,
that at the price of much blood, freedom has won the day for the slaves and
for the South."

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] What Koestler actually said

1999-01-05 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/4/99 9:47:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Except that it's main premise that modern Jews are
  really not
  Jews is completely wrong. But this has never stopped Christians before
  and
  won't stop the really desperate now.

All too true.

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Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men an...

1999-01-05 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/4/99 11:26:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  In reality, it was the Southern soldiers who were fighting for the
  principle of self-government.

Is there anything so jaw dropping inexplicable than the few who attempt to
make the South out as a victim of the North over the Civil War?  There are
"shrines" to Jefferson Davis and Stonewall Jackson.  Take a tour of the South
and your ear will be bent by a guide babbling about how cruel the Yankees were
at Vicksburg.  Listening to them, one would never guess that the South was run
by a gang of slavers who do not at all correspond to those portrayed in Gone
With the Wind as kindly masters taking loving care of some child like people.

Of course, things are complicated and there were many decent Christian
Southerners who smuggled slaves, spied on Southern military units, and
sabotaged when possible.  There were right-wing Northerners who spoke and
acted for the South.  There were slave holding prosperous free blacks in the
South.  There were a few slave holders who did treat their slaves with some
shred of fairness considering the relationship.  The real point is that every
son of the South who involves himself in discussions about the Civil War
should get down on his knees and thank God that the Union won the war thereby
freeing both slave and "free" Southerner.

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Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men and ...

1999-01-05 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/5/99 12:50:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

  What is your explanation for the seeming ability of a
  capitalist society to sustain so many more people on the same land mass?

Have all the other people of the earth agreed upon a goal without telling me?
Is there really some game whose winner is determined by what country sustains
the most people per square mile of land?  Is Bangladesh the winner?

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Midwife who delivered Clinton adds fuel to row over his ...

1999-01-05 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/5/99 10:43:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Mr Clinton was brought up to believe he was sired by Bill Blythe, an accused
 bigamist

Sired?

How many posts on this thread will it take for someone to declare that
Clinton, being the Antichrist, was fathered by you know who?

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

1999-01-05 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/5/99 12:54:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  and history.  For your information, the typical Negro slave received back,
 over the period of
  his life, about 90% of the wealth he produced... He had a longer life
 expectency than white
  Europeans of the time, and was better off in practically every measurable
 aspect of economic
  life and physical health than was any  "peasant class" worker in the world
(
 specifically factory
  workers in the industrial north and Europe).

You must be living in a dream world, have you been shooting something into
your arm?  If you learned very little in school, it is not too late.  I
suggest you read Bullwhip Days to unburden yourself of the scales that cover
your eyes.

Jerry

PS the notion that privately held property is taken better care of is
certainly pure crap where the corporations are concerned.  Consider Hurwitz
and his tender treatment of the resources of MAXXAM.

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Re: [CTRL] Two Cows (humor)

1999-01-05 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/5/99 2:03:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 
   CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
  

This single line for capitalism which makes it sound like a right smart system
while the alternatives are described with multiple sentences and none too
flatteringly is not well balanced.  I don't know what the right add-on should
be but as it is, it doesn't account for the ruthless quality of capitalism
which leaves 41 million Americans below the poverty line.  It is also silent
about the harsher tone of American capitalism that developed after the fall of
the Soviet Union.  For the sake of the Russian people and the American people,
we need Gorbachev back.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] THE NEA'S GRAB-BAG OF ISSUES

1999-01-05 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/5/99 4:19:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


 o   It wants the U.S. to nationalize health care, start a
 nuclear freeze, adopt national energy policies and pass
 more gun-control laws.

Run in circles, scream and shout.

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Re: [CTRL] Hundreds protest police killing of black teen in Calif...

1999-01-05 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/5/99 4:38:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 someone
  sitting in a car that is running and has a flat tire, if having gone on
for,
  say, an hour, would be reason for ME to inquire if I were a police officer

Hey, how does the cop know she wasn't a commie?

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Re: [CTRL] Fwd: [FTC] Dangerous NAFTA Trucks Invade US

1999-01-05 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/5/99 6:05:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  About ten years ago, I drove into Mexico..  After having done so, I
  decided to never do it again

Having heard similar things several times, i certainly believe you.  I spent
the summer of 1962 in Mexico.  The crime rate was quite low despite the
poverty.  More than once i found myself alone in poor areas of the city in the
wee hours and felt perfectly safe.  What in the world has happened over the
past 27 years?

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Elizabeth Dole May Run For President

1999-01-04 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/3/99 7:45:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Elizabeth Dole is planning to step aside as president of the American Red
 Cross in a step her political supporters hope will lead to her running for
 president

Hey, anybody who can sit in a big office at the Red Cross should make a good
Republican president.

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Re: [CTRL] [Future-Cities] Theocratic Cities in Space. (fwd)

1999-01-04 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/3/99 9:32:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 does it make any
  substantial difference as to what the "religionists" and their clergy
  have to say or not concerning their structure and functioning?

Well, if it's a David Koresh offshoot, you would have to plan for residences
with one humongous apartment for a harem plus dorm space for the men.  If it
were an operation like Elizabeth Clare Prophet runs, it would mostly be
underground to prepare for Armageddon.  I hope this helps.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Forward 1776misc list: Chelsea's Half Brother -- Inspires ...

1999-01-04 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/4/99 2:54:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 kids.
  Ask one of these mother's who have been left with the two, three, four,
  five, or six kids after the Dad goes elsewhere to play "house" --- about
  what kind of "liberation" the NOW she-devils have secured for HER.

Listen to SnowOwl, i.e. don't assume that every claim you hear of that is
detrimental to President Clinton's reputation must be true.  The Clinton
bashers make themselves foolish when they do this.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Do stay, Lynn

1999-01-04 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

For God's sake, let the poor creature go.

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Re: [CTRL] What Koestler actually said

1999-01-04 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/4/99 9:44:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  This is dated thinking. It applied a generation ago. The legend of
  chosenness is part of the Jewish national myth. It applies to those
  who
  have converted as well. There is no problem here except that
  Christians
  can't usurp that title while Jews continue to exist.

IMO this is not quite it.  It is true that we Christians have totally usurped
the scriptures and beliefs of the Jewish/Hebrew people up to the time of
Christ.  But i think it gets kind of complex.  It has been said of Hitler that
that he especially resented the Jews because while Hr, Hitler, babbled about
the natural superiority of the Aryan race, he realized that the difference was
that the Jews really did believe in their own superiority by virtue of being
the Chosen People.  This is not it either though it is an interesting theory.

I think that it is a matter of some naive but determined Christians thinking
that since theirs is the true religion and is built upon Judaism, it is right
and natural for the Jews to be converted.  They are thwarted and shocked when,
after the Christian faith has been explained, the Jews still do not convert.
The surprise quickly turns to anger.  Martin Luther strongly believed that the
Jews simply had not had the Faith explained to them properly but he, Luther,
would do it right.  Again, disappointment.  Luther became one of many anti-
Semitic Christians, adding more coals to the Holocaust to come.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] hello (again)

1999-01-04 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/4/99 9:53:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  Look all
  As far as June is concerned, why doesn't shetell me which chat
rooms
 I
  supposedly go to and all that stuff.

How about a padded one?  Seriously, Lynne, have you considered professional
help?  You obviously have a substantial need to take umbrage.  But it sort of
gets boring even though many are egging you on.  I suggest you keep your peace
until you get your head straight.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] SnoOwl: Drudge Report//agreement

1999-01-04 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/4/99 11:04:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Why are youassuming it's not true?
  J2

You miss the point, J2.

SnowOwl is talking about the responsibility of the news media to not spread
every rumor of scandal.  Nor is this a responsibility of the news media only.
It is one thing to privately think that yes, the SOB is probably guilty of
whatever happens to be said about him and it is another for the, so far,
unsupported, rumor to be published.  Got it?

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Fwd: You Most Admire Bill Hillary, Right?

1999-01-03 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

No, i most admire Helen Chenoweth and Henry Hyde for their whining self pity
when they were exposed.

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Re: [CTRL] Poll Conspiracy - Public Opinion Conspiracy - Voting C...

1999-01-03 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/2/99 10:43:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  I am eager to hear your reply, because I have found that Clinton-type
  supporters invariably LOVE the current no-checks-and-balances computerized
  vote tallying systems.

I have to admit to being more than a tad suspicious of anything which the
Libertarians or conservatives find appealing.  The Libertarians sound
appealing because they at least have the good sense to know that locking up
huge numbers of citizens for victimless crimes and squandering billion of
dollars on the "war on drugs" is damaging to the nation.  On the other hand, i
heard much of what was said at their convention in 1996 and it became plain
that the party leaders are mostly interested in avoiding taxes.  They either
believe that it is possible to have a society worth living in without expenses
or their top priority is "let George pay for it" where George is you or me.
This gives them plenty in common with those for whom the Republicans carry
water despite the hypocritical moralizing by the conservatives.

At this point i am not sufficiently familiar with the issue of going back to
count the ballot the old fashioned way.  Doubtlessly, there are certain
efficiencies in automated vote counts for both time and money.  There were
charges of vote fraud when the ballots were still hand counted.  There are
questions here of the impact on the growing use of referendums that going back
would have, i.e. would they still be practicable?  In short, i must weasel out
here and not give the court room lawyers preferred answer of yes or no.
Cheers.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Taking Communism Seriously

1999-01-03 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/3/99 2:28:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 a lot is asked of native-born Americans with no experience
  of foreign occupation or tyranny

I was initially startled to read this since native Americans flahed through my
mind, who, of course, have experienced occupation and tyranny.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] Congressional Record: Leftist Agenda, 1963

1999-01-03 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/3/99 2:57:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Break down cultural standards of morality

Well it sure sounds like the leftist agenda has been wholly successful among
the Republicans.

Jerry

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==
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Re: [CTRL] [prj] Listen Up! Clinton Supporting Scum!

1999-01-02 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/1/99 9:17:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, lloyd@A-
ALBIONIC.COM writes:


  The Clinton elections was a Rockefeller coup d'tat.  Ross Perot got his
  start with contracts from Nelson Rockefeller.  Rockefeller used Perot and
  his press power to throw the election to Clinton a CIA-Rockefeller tool.
  Now we have a Rockefeller National Security dictatorship under
  Clinton...thank God the Anglophile
  conspiracy isn't going to let the Rockefeller cabal winthey want to
  maintain an Oligarchical Establishment, with some semblance of the rule of
  law not a stinking dictatorship.

Oh.  OK.

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Re: [CTRL] Euro (Re: [CTRL] Source: Fate Of Clinton Being Decided At ...

1999-01-02 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/1/99 9:35:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  Could you please quantify this?  A quick check of census figures and the
  C1A World Factbook he difference in average income between Germany and
  Greece is greater than the difference between Connecticut and Mississippi
  (the difference between west  east Germany is even greater).

  Or were you referring to the difference in income levels between the
  richest and poorest within a country?  In Europe these are held lower by
  high rates of taxation and social welfare, i.e. income redistribution.


Yes, one must be careful in these comparisons.  It's sort of like the
epidemiological studies that can make cancer rate differentials invisible by
carefully selecting the population group.  As you suggest, when considering
income or wealth gaps, one must look at ratios of the richest to the poorest.
When considering absolute income, it is important to look at medians rather
than averages.

  Europe will never be as cohesive as the US due to differences in language.
  But I don't see this as being much of a factor in the Euro being a popular
  trading currency.  Trading ties and currency stability will factor much
  higher.  Look for the Euro to be popular in Europe, Africa, possibly
  Western Asia, and the Dollar to maintain its strength in Eastern Asia and
  the Americas.

  Che


You are probably correct for over the next few years.  The reason i believe
that those nations which have the most widely shared income, wealth,
knowledge, and power are going to become gradually dominant is that such a
nation is naturally able to marshall superior strength in any endeavor over
other countries of similar population size.  Of course, this applies to the
290 million Euro Europeans compared to the US.  Unless our corporate masters
and their servants, the Republicans and the news media wake up fast, and there
is no sign of this about to happen, the Euro folks are going to pass us
economically.  The international politics follows the money.

Nothing has been more revealing than the way Bush and his boys passed the
begging bowl so we could make war in The Gulf.  The Japanese really rubbed it
in when they objected to having to pay at all saying they could live with
Saddam just fine.  To a great extent out international leadership rests upon
the memories of WWII and fears among various nations of Japan and Germany
including fears from many in Japan and Germany.  This condition is has
weakened some and, naturally, will contine to do so with the passage of time.
We didn't have to help it along with our cowboy adventures in Vietnam, Panama
etc. but that is another story.

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Re: [CTRL] Bill Clinton: Deadbeat Dad?

1999-01-02 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/1/99 9:44:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 Other persons with offices there, according to the
  1956 Dallas City Directory, included George DeMohrenschildt, Suite 1639-40;

Linda, is this the guy who turned out to be a sort of facilitator for Lee
Harvey Oswald?

Jerry

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spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] China White, USA

1999-01-02 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/2/99 9:23:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


   The use of China White and other forms of illegal drugs is now
   rampant in the United States.

I trust we are all aware of the irony.

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Re: [CTRL] Larry Flynt Blackmailing Clinton?

1999-01-02 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/2/99 11:34:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

  I really liked it when Jerry Falwell
  commented that surely in all those men, they should be able to find one who
  had been faithful to his wife.  It took them a while, but they finally got
  one.

Which one?

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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] United States of Urantia

1999-01-01 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/1/99 3:34:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  that bait is awfully old. no one is going to bite on that anymore. you are
  obviously an agent for some right wing police state advocacy group. are
  they still sending you checks? they obviously don't know that you are the
  list joke here. better hope they don't update your file, you might find
  yourself knocking on the gate at the russian consulate in bolivia.
  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.


I'm not sure what you are objecting to.  Can you be explicit?

Jerry

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==
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spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] Poll Conspiracy - Public Opinion Conspiracy - Voting C...

1999-01-01 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/1/99 12:39:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, lloyd@A-
ALBIONIC.COM writes:


  And, you are on a conspiracy research list, and you're putting out the bunk
  that Clinton is the one responsible for the economy? He's giving the
  Alan Greenspan crowd, The Ruling Elite, what they want, and Greenspan keeps
  the interest rates down. Also, the economy is only great for the Vultures
  on Wall Street, the average working man is groaning under unnecessary debt
  artificially created by even the "low" interest rates we have, and the
  ungodly tax burden.

OK, Lloyd, you don't trust the polls and you don't trust the election.
Perhaps you would trust the polls and elections only if they came out as you
please.

Where i find a major disconnect in your opinions that you assume Clinton is
the boy of the ruling elite.  However, the ruling elites must constantly check
him such as paring back the initial request for increasing the minimum wage or
setting up an expensive and extensive propaganda barrage against national
health insurance.  I fully agree that although GDP keeps climbing and the
number of millionaires in the nation grows, the average guy is not sharing in
the prosperity of the rich.  I hardly think that the answer is to vote against
the one presidential candidate and party which consistently proposes and works
for a more inclusive society.  I don't buy the quasi-nihilistic notion of
they're all the same.

History is clearly on our side.  The march of history has been toward a
greater sharing of power and wealth.  The SOBs that have recently reversed
this trend are going to be rolled over.  Contrary to popular opinion on this
list, people are not stupid.  They do catch on and begin to vote for and work
for their own interest and for the values they share.

I do get a little tired of constantly seeming to defend Clinton when it is
merely a matter of choosing to be led by a brilliant talented leader who has
ideas and spiritually based ideals or a wholly cynical gang of power hungry
hypocrites who can only view society as something to manipulate.

Cheers and have a happy new year.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] CHRISTMAS WISHES

1998-12-31 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/30/98 3:03:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  you have not seen the film about the ark on mount ararat. it is there. any
  more leaps of faith, june? it was archeological


In 1977 our family paid full fare to see The Ark.  It was a cheesy
presentation made by, i think, Christopher Frates.  One month later it was
shown on non-premium TV.  I have seen several Ark documentaries since but have
had the sense to not pay for any.  When the Ark is brought to the US near my
home and there are signed affidavits from the Pope and the President plus a
herd of scientists that feces has been identified from every species on board
the thing i will be impressed.  I won't believe but will be impressed that
such a conspiracy could be arranged.

Of course, many do not require even common sense to believe most anything.
Surely the Nobel prize for credulity should be given to those poor souls who
have their bodies or heads frozen in hopes they will be brought back to life
when cures are found for dead brains, kidneys, livers, etc ravaged by a life
of hard living.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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[CTRL] With No Decency

1998-12-29 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

December 29, 1998

With No Decency
By ANTHONY LEWIS

BOSTON -- In 1994, when Bosnia was nearly crushed by the attacking Serbs,
President Clinton decided to make no objection if Croatia violated a U.N.
embargo by letting arms go through to the Bosnians.

Our Ambassador to Croatia, Peter Galbraith, was told to say -- if President
Franjo Tudjman asked whether we objected -- that he had "no instructions" on
the point. Mr. Tudjman asked, got the answer and let the arms through. They
made a crucial difference in saving Sarajevo and Bosnia.

Two years later The Los Angeles Times told the story, emphasizing that some of
the arms had come from Iran. Senator Bob Dole, the prospective Republican
candidate for President, demanded an investigation. Speaker Newt Gingrich
appointed a special subcommittee with a $1 million budget. He named as
chairman Representative Henry Hyde.

There was in fact no mystery to investigate, and no failure. Ambassador
Galbraith and others involved testified freely about what they had done --
without regrets, because the policy had been a great success. Bosnia survived.
So did the new Muslim-Croat Federation brought into being by the United
States. The military balance shifted against the Serbs, making possible the
Dayton Accords. They paved the way for the expulsion of Iranian agents from
Bosnia.

But Henry Hyde was determined to find something that could be called
wrongdoing. So the committee pursued, among other things, a report that
Ambassador Galbraith had dated an American journalist while he and she were in
Croatia.

Both were single, so the most prurient bluenose could not have objected. But
committee investigators deposed Mr. Galbraith's secretary and a member of his
staff to get details of the relationship -- until a lawyer objected.

Mr. Galbraith was also questioned about how he had been told what to say to
Mr. Tudjman. A White House assistant had telephoned, he said, passing on word
from Anthony Lake, the President's national security adviser, to say that he
had "no instructions." The assistant added that Mr. Lake had said it with a
smile and a raised eyebrow, Mr. Galbraith testified, saying that he had made a
note of that.

The committee then questioned Mr. Lake and his assistant, and they said they
could not remember the smile and raised eyebrow. Mr. Hyde and his committee,
implying that Mr. Galbraith had made that up, referred his testimony to the
Justice Department for criminal investigation.

Why mention that two-year-old investigation now? Because it shows how petty,
nasty and partisan Henry Hyde was in a situation where no wrong had been done.
His purpose was to find something -- anything -- to discredit the Clinton
Administration in an election year. If individuals were hurt, their
reputations damaged for no reason, so be it. Casual McCarthyism.

When the House Judiciary Committee started its impeachment inquiry, the
Washington press corps trotted out its usual adjectives for chairman Hyde:
grandfatherly, nonpartisan. In reality, Mr. Hyde performed exactly as he had
in 1996: as a relentless partisan.

When Salon, an Internet magazine, broke the news that Mr. Hyde had had a five-
year affair with a married woman starting when he was 41, Republican leaders
reacted with outrage, demanding an F.B.I. investigation of how the truth had
been told. They can dish it out, but they think they should be immune to such
attacks themselves.

The press made little of Mr. Hyde's hypocrisy in that episode. Nor has it done
much with the discovery that Representative Bob Barr, a leading advocate of
impeachment, and Trent Lott, the Senate majority leader, spoke to a virulent
racist group: something more deplorable than anything President Clinton has
done.

But the public understands. I think that is one large reason why an
overwhelming majority continues to support President Clinton.

Most Americans did not like the vengeful partisan tone of the impeachment
process. They did not like Kenneth Starr's bullying of Monica Lewinsky and her
mother, or his prying into the most private side of their lives, or his
publishing of gratuitous sexual detail. They understood that breaking down the
wall between private and public life is the hallmark of tyranny.

In all of this the American sense of fair play was offended. And as Joe
McCarthy learned, you offend that at your peril.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
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be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be 

Re: [CTRL] Christmas Eve Conspiracy Power Move

1998-12-29 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/28/98 1:08:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  This move by the Germans is consistent with their historic Drang nach
Osten.
  Whenever the Germans get antsy, they start pushing to the east. And
  destabilizing the Serbs is just part of the reassertion of their old ties
to
  Croatia (*Catholic* Croatia, I guess we should note). "Indeed do many
things
  come to pass" fnord.


Yeah, God forbid that a bigot should not note that.  The non-bigots should
note that the Serbs attempted to keep Croatia as part of the Frankenstein
monster called Yugoslavia by force.  Serbia occupied a good chunk of Croatia
for months after Croatia finally pulled loose from the bloodsucking Serbia.
Croatia finally had to use force to recover the ground.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Re: [CTRL] Polls

1998-12-29 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/28/98 7:30:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  If you do the math, the percentage of the actual population of the
  United States represented in the polls works out to .027%. That
  doesn't sound very "representative" to me!

Statistical samplig, especially when stratified, can yield highly accurate
results from a relatively small number of respondents.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Re: [CTRL] Weapons of Mass Deception

1998-12-28 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/27/98 8:59:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  Yes, if Saddam had any sense at all, he would hire a liberal American
  political consultant on the order of a Dick Morris

This political rant ran down hill after this unreal statement.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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[CTRL] Snvel snivel was Re: Echoes from the Past

1998-12-28 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/27/98 6:27:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 My 5-year-old son
  Jack recently saw a picture of Clinton and said, "He lied." I couldn't
  disagree

Where were all these 5-year old kids when Gingrich, as though in a sign of
thing to come, was found to have had blow jobs in his congressional office,
claiming to the women, two of whom stepped forward, that since it was oral sex
it didn't count.  Where are these youngsters when livingston turns out to have
had sex (in what sounds like not exactly affairs but service for service swaps
with comely female lobbyists) in his office?  There are others of course and
they all lied.  Are these 5-year olds strangely selective?  When our kids were
young, there were scandals also but our youngsters were not continually coming
forward with "Why would that mean old person lie?"  Could it be that these
assorted stories about "what to tell the innocents" are so much horse shit?

Another bit of hogwash we've heard a lot of recently is that everything was
wonderful until those young people demonstrated against the Vietnam War in the
1960s.  Of course, the reality is that these demonstrators, seeing that the
war was evil, attempted to bring the war to a halt, thereby saving American
and Vietnamese lives.

Another thing those terrible liberals of the 1960s did was help to bring a
screeching halt to the corrupt way of life of the Jim Crow south.  The battle
for civil rights was costly and the snivelers of today can thank those who
paid the price to achieve the openness of today's society.  Obviously, monster
controversial issues are still with us in the form of poverty and environment.
Both involve corporate exploitation and media manipulation.

Jerry

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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] Bill: Thanks for the 1998 Memories

1998-12-28 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/27/98 9:01:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  Though the American people have always known you to be a lying rogue,
  they overlooked that in two elections.

Gee, i wonder if that was because your first opponent brought us the wholly
gratuitous invasions of Panama, Somalis, and got us permanently involved with
Iraq.  Most of us realize that the price has been steep and, at least in the
case of Iraq, it has just begun.

Your second opponent was also a lying philanderer (i know, the word lying is
redundant since all philanderers lie).  The difference was that you were
capable and knowledgeable while Dole led by compromise, no ideas put forward -
just draw a line in the middle of notions the media allow to be discussed.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Re: [CTRL] [prj] Incredible Newsweek cover--European Union Tower ...

1998-12-28 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/28/98 7:16:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, lloyd@A-
ALBIONIC.COM writes:


  Lloyd Responds:  Here's a good revision for you:--the Pope is the head
  of the Beast!

Lloyd is a fellow member of the long, boring, bombastic, legalistic posters
club that seems to thrive on this list.  Here he is at least brief but in
being so he has exposed his know nothing fundamentalist philosophy with great
clarity.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] A Noninterventionist Revival

1998-12-28 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/27/98 9:00:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 Lott came out to support military action under certain conditions

Yeah, a month earlier when there was no immediate impeachemt vote,

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Polls

1998-12-28 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/28/98 11:53:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 routinely garner 75 to 85 percent support.
  Even regular polls show a hardcore of one-third of the
  public that wants to see Clinton ousted immediately.
  Add to that those who don't answer, those who don't
  reveal the truth, and those for whom the entire political
  game is utterly sickening, and you've reached the
  two-thirds mark and then some.

When are you Clinton haters going to stop weaseling about Clinton's popularity
and face the fact that the voters have elected him twice, think he is terrific
for the economy and conducts foreign policy much better than his recent
predecessors?  All your awkward rationalizing does not persuade.  Polling has
become an important statistical discipline, the practitioners know the ins and
outs.  You simply don't want to know the facts but the Republicans will pay
the price in 2000.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Capitol Punishment

1998-12-23 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/22/98 7:01:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Four Republican congressmen who voted to impeach
  President Clinton joined with those seeking presidential censure Tuesday by
  urging the Senate to consider options short of removal from office.

I'm afraid that i have to agree with those rabid Republicans who referred to
these 4 gentlemen as sniveling hypocrites.

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Re: [CTRL] Sex Scrutiny Casts Pall Over U.S. Public Office (Reuters)

1998-12-23 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/22/98 7:02:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The closer scrutiny of politicians' sex lives is
  making private acts increasingly public as a sex magazine publisher
  Tuesday threatened to expose more lawmakers over alleged transgressions.

The news media take here in Monicaland is that Flynt is lower than a snake to
do these investigations.  This may seem like an odd reaction from the crowd
who couldn't put forth enough sexual material and speculation about Clinton.
Understandably, the media masters do not care to have their fellow faithful
servants exposed.  I think it is a good thing to end the pretense, i.e. to end
the prattling about family values from those who hold to such values neither
personally nor in voting.  Pour it on Flynt, and let he who first cries
hold...

Jerry

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[CTRL] And Cauldron Bubble

1998-12-22 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

December 22, 1998


ABROAD AT HOME / By ANTHONY LEWIS
And Cauldron Bubble


BOSTON -- Should Linda Tripp, Lucianne Goldberg and Kenneth Starr decide who
is to be President of the United States? When you analyze the principal
argument made for the impeachment of President Clinton, you are brought
inevitably to that question.

Perjury was the House Republican mantra, the argument pressed by the hard
right to bring moderates to heel. In the debate, one Republican after another
said he or she had to vote to impeach Bill Clinton because he lied under oath.
But that proposition overlooks what the trio did.

The President tried to keep his sexual improprieties secret. That was neither
surprising nor ignoble. Henry Hyde and Robert Livingston did the same, and so
men have done since the Creation.

But Monica Lewinsky told Mrs. Tripp, a former White House employee who had
been trying for years to harm President Clinton. At the urging of Ms.
Goldberg, a right-wing literary agent, Mrs. Tripp taped her telephone
conversations with Ms. Lewinsky. She told Paula Jones's lawyers and Mr. Starr
about the tapes.

The resulting trap was sprung on the President at his deposition in the Jones
case. That was the fount of his troubles. So it is vital to understand how his
testimony has effectively been judged.

Mr. Clinton denied, famously, having had "sexual relations" with Ms. Lewinsky.
The definition of that was so obscure that no jury was likely to convict him
of perjury in his denial. And the House of Representatives evidently took the
same view. It rejected the article of impeachment charging him with perjury in
the deposition. Mr. Starr had another string for his bow. He called the
President before a grand jury, where he was asked about his statements in the
Jones deposition. Then Mr. Starr charged that Mr. Clinton's answers were
false.

Again, I doubt that a jury would have convicted Mr. Clinton of perjury.
Millions of Americans saw the videotape of his grand jury appearance and most
sympathized with him -- indeed, were outraged at what he was put through.

But House Republicans said that the President's answers to the Starr
prosecutors were perjurious. That is, answers that the House found were not
perjurious at the original proceeding became high crimes when the same answers
were given again.

No other American would have had to undergo that second turn of the screw.
Targets of prosecutors customarily invoke the Fifth Amendment; Justice
Department rules discourage calling them before grand juries. But Mr. Starr,
determined to get something on him after four years of fruitless
investigation, guessed correctly that for political reasons the President
would not refuse to testify.

In truth, many House Republicans who cited perjury as their ground for
impeachment had deeper reasons. They do not like this President. An
unmistakable venom ran through the whole process.

An astute foreign eye saw it clearly. Philip Stevens of The Financial Times
wrote: "This was not about the sacred Constitution of the United States. It
wasn't even honest politics. The impeachment of Bill Clinton was personal. It
was an act of vengeance."

Conservatives have hated Bill Clinton since the day he took office. Some
conservative commentators, broadcast and print, seem obsessed by the man.
Robert Livingston, before he gave up the Speaker's job, showed his distorting
animus when he said: "Richard Nixon's crime was covering up a crime he did not
commit. Clinton is covering up a crime he did commit."

There are reasons for politicians, Democratic and Republican, to distrust Bill
Clinton. He has not played straight with many of them. And the public has
reason to have been offended at his false assurance that he had not had sexual
relations with that woman. But those are not grounds for impeachment, or
resignation, unless we are going to make the impeachment process a vote of no
confidence and move toward a parliamentary system of government.

In the end, I do not believe that the Senate or the public will want to reward
hatred. I do not believe they will want our political fate to be decided by
Linda Tripp, Lucianne Goldberg and Kenneth Starr.

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[CTRL] 60 Minutes and Soros

1998-12-21 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

Did anyone else watch 60 Minutes last night?  I watched in befuddlement as the
reporter evaded a substantive interview by continually asking such things as
What makes GS tick?  Or don't you feel dishonest when you advice other
countries on how to protect their economies when you speculate on those
currencies the next day?  People magazine goes forward with its psychobabble
permeating all.

Here was a rare opportunity for the average guy to hear what one of the few
knowledgeable people on the global who are willing to speak has to say.  CBS
blew it good, possibly to give the impression that there really are no
credible opinions other than the official corporate/government line.

Jerry

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Re: [CTRL] FWD: WH Secret Police??

1998-12-20 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/19/98 11:50:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

   By DICK MORRIS
  
CAN anyone seriously believe that the ''outing'' of
incoming House Speaker Robert Livingston's
extra-marital affairs is not the work of the White
House Secret Police?
  

Of course.  It will apparently surprise you to know that some press operations
are not controlled, only the biggies and some house organs are.  There are
investigative reporters out there.  One aggressive investigator who has travel
money is all that is needed.  Each politician has enemies eager to talk.  It's
not mysterious.  Of course, Larry Flynt probably helped smoke out BL.  It is
claimed that the mainstream reporters know this stuff already because the
folks who got screwed (figuratively or literally) tell them this stuff.  It is
not reported by these guys but when they drink in a friendly club situation or
feel disgusted enough to pass the info on to a small operator, things can get
out.  The element of conspiracy in this information is exaggerated.

Jerry

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[CTRL] House of Arrogance

1998-12-20 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

December 20, 1998
NYT

IN AMERICA / By BOB HERBERT
House of Arrogance

In the end, the will of the people meant nothing.

Bob Livingston couldn't have been clearer about that.

His mind and the minds of his followers were closed. Even as the bombing
continued in Iraq and Americans from coast to coast were clamoring for an
alternative to impeachment, even as his own adulterous past was being flushed
out in the grotesque invasions of privacy that inevitably followed the
relentlessly prurient pursuit of the President, even as the country began to
contemplate the destructive effects of a lengthy and bitter Senate trial, the
Speaker-designate arrogantly and stupidly proclaimed: "Let us disregard the
outside influences."

The radicals on the Hill would hear nothing but the echoes of their own
fanaticism. Impeach! Impeach!

And that continued even after the stunning announcement yesterday morning that
Mr. Livingston would quit the House.

Dismayed by the partisan stampede, Richard Gephardt, the Democratic leader,
warned during the impeachment debate on Friday: "In your effort to uphold the
Constitution, you are trampling the Constitution."

David Bonior, the Democratic whip, said: "This is wrong. It is unfair. It is
unjust. At a time when events in the world and the challenges at home demand
that we stand united, censure is the one solution that can bring us together.
To my colleagues across the aisle, I say let go of your obsession. Listen to
the American people."

But the voices of reason would not be heard. Mr. Livingston and his right-wing
colleagues, the Tom DeLays, the Henry Hydes, the Bob Barrs, were on a mission
of destruction and would not be denied. Ordinary Americans could cry out all
they wanted. They could protest and demonstrate, send faxes and E-mails. It
didn't matter. The right was on the march and democracy was on the run.

Representative Thomas Barrett, a Democrat from Wisconsin, tried to remind his
Republican colleagues that the Constitution "does not allow you to remove a
President from office because you can't stand him." He was, of course,
ignored.

The Republicans will pay a huge price for their brazen, utterly partisan
attempt to drag a President from the White House in defiance of the will of
the people. The party's contempt for the voters was arrogantly summed up by
Alan Simpson, the former Senator from Wyoming, who said: "The attention span
of Americans is which movie is coming out next month and whether the quarterly
report on their stock will change."

If the voters are the dopes that Mr. Simpson thinks they are, then come 2000
everyone will have forgotten there was an impeachment crisis.

But Representative Robert Menendez, a New Jersey Democrat, was probably closer
to the truth when he said, "I warn my colleagues that you will reap the bitter
harvest of the unfair partisan seeds you sow today."

One of the many strange events of the past couple of weeks was the way in
which virtually all of the previously undecided Republicans, the so-called
moderates, surrendered their independence and lined up like lackeys to follow
the right wing's lead. All proclaimed loudly that they were voting on
principle, but in fact it was an exercise in mass cowardice, exemplified by
Representative John McHugh of upstate New York.

Mr. McHugh announced on Tuesday that he would vote for impeachment. But if his
decision was based on principle, he had an odd way of expressing it. The
Washington Post said Mr. McHugh appeared to have no stomach for a Senate
conviction or removal of the President from office. Of his colleagues in the
Senate, Mr. McHugh said, "I, for one, would accept, even welcome, their
mercy."

In other words, let the Senate do the heavy constitutional lifting.

Congressman McHugh may have wished out loud for mercy, but he clearly was too
frightened of the right-wingers in the House to cast a compassionate vote
himself.

The G.O.P. can no longer conceal that it is a party of extremists, of right-
wing absolutists, a party out of step with the political and cultural
orientation of most Americans.

Bob Livingston may be leaving, but his arrogant comment can still serve as his
party's slogan. "Let us disregard the outside influences."

Let us disregard the people.

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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


[CTRL] Cheapening the issues

1998-12-20 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

Have you noticed how Gephardt and a few others are saying what the Republicans
neither dare nor desire to say?  Gephardt is saying that the sex revelations
are the result of a McCarthy-like devolution of political discussion.  The
revelations should come to a halt because they obfuscate important.  One could
say that Gephardt is saying this because he may be next.  Hey, who knows.  IMO
he is speaking out because he knows that politics is the life blood of
democracy.  Politics means the discussion and debate of issues so that the
facts and trade offs become apparent.  When meaningful discussion about he
future of American society is overwhelmed by trivia, democracy loses its
meaning.  Why have political choice if people don't know what the choices are?

The Democrats wish to discuss issues that impact the future lives of
Americans.  That's because they are the party of the middle class people,
minorities, women, and the dispossessed.  The Republicans do not wish to
discuss meaningful issues because doing so clarifies their servitude to the
rich and privileged.

This is the reason the Republicans and the news media keep waving red flags,
to titillate the public and get people to stop thinking about the interests of
the nation.  Thus, we hear about OJ, Jon Benet, Princess Diana, Clinton's
sexual activity.  It is inconvenient to base a coup on sheer willfulness,
there has to be some pseudo issue dreamed up.  Base it on sex and when that
effort blows up in the Republican face, go to narrow legalism.  But always the
issues must be obscured.

Jerry Harp

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Re: [CTRL] The Debate and The Media

1998-12-20 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/20/98 1:49:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  One of those loonies who thinks the Bible is something
  other
  than a bunch of legends and idiotic superstitions.

A lot of us do.

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spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Re: [CTRL] Khazaria.......NOT!

1998-12-19 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/18/98 4:59:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 The blatant
  dishonest extrapolation of this idea is only advocated by ignorant
  racists serving the interests of those who want to divert the blame from
  themselves for NWO consequences and pawn the responsibility onto a single
  ethnic/religous group who form but a small minority of the classification
  truly responsible for the evils now becoming apparent.

Well, it sounds like the ever plotting nefarious Jews have been caught with
their hand in the jar again.

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

1998-12-19 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/18/98 6:49:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  No, it's you Clintonistas who keep telling yourself it IS only about
  sex...

  The rest of us know it's about perjury and obstruction of justice...


From January to October the Republicans and the news media told us it was all
about sex.  They described the activities in great detail, even a large volume
of salacious material was released by the Republicans to the delight of the
press.  Then, all became quiet and the news media seemed confused and the
Republicans chagrined.  Then in a bit Salon let it be known that Henry Hyde,
Dan Burton, and Helen Chenoweth were lying adulterers like that mean old
Clinton.  Then it was leaked that Strom Thrurmond had a child out of wedlock
with an African-American woman although he, unlike Burton who also fathered a
child out of wedlock, at least paid some child support (hush money?).  What to
do?

Then, shazam, it was no longer a matter of sex or about lying.  It was a
matter of lying under oath about sex!  Phew!  (see Barb Witts last post if you
doubt that this is the new party line.

To tell the truth, these lying ass Republicans are right.  It isn't about sex
or lies.  It is about a strange right-wing belief that only they are entitled
to rule and it serves their and God's purpose to do anything including
dragging this country down to dust to take control of the nation.  It is about
a coup d'etat.  It is about enacting a crime under network TV cameras.  It is
about the arrogant rich and their servants (the Republicans and the news
media) telling the world that they and they alone will make they key decisions
in this country.  Maybe it is a banana republic at that.

Jerry Harp

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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] Perjury

1998-12-19 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/18/98 11:14:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Now why in the world would Paula Jones have gone up to that hotel
  room in the first place? Was she flattered to be asked? Would she
  have been more amenable to the assignation if he had been a bit
  less "abrupt"? Hey, you never know.



My recollection on the reports when the story broke a few years ago was that
PJ had requested an appointment with Clinton, telling the state cop who
apparently arranged such matters that she wanted to let Clinton know that she
admired him and was available.  Clinton, like some dumb college student full
of himself, shocked her by exposing himself.  He had more attractive
alternatives and did not hesitate to alienate PJ in order to have a little
chuckle.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

1998-12-19 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/19/98 12:15:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  No, the Civil War was about States' Rights...slavery was a side issue,
  and Lincoln did NOT support the Union coming out with a diffinitive
  statement against slavery...


Slavery was the issue of the civil war.  Read McPherson.  The States Rights
stuff was used by the South to keep from having to argue the slavery question
since they obviously were in a morally bankrupt position.  The South used the
States Rights argument again in the 1950s and 19960s to avoid the civil rights
issue.  It didn't work that time either.

Jerry

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] !!! NEWS FLASH !!!

1998-12-18 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

  From: KA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  : Subject: Re: [CTRL] !!! NEWS FLASH !!!
  : Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 6:38 PM
  :
  :
  : "Trent 'draft dodger' Lott"?
  :
  : Perhaps you can elucidate on CLINTON's military experience for us?


The difference between Clinton and guys like Lott, Gingrich, Armey, Gramm et
al is that Clinton was against the Vietnam War because he realized that it was
corrupt and against US interests, even participated in a demonstration against
it.  These other fellow were all for the war.  Armey even said that his draft
dodging was OK since he always spoke out in favor of the war.  Many of these
hawks would say that we must support the war (prolong it) since that would be
in support of our troops.  Does anyone not know how one of our soldiers in
Vietnam would have responded to a sudden cessation of the fighting and going
back home with the war unwon?  I fully respect those draft dodgers who were
motivated by the evil of the war or even simply realized that it did not make
sense.  I do not respect the draft dodging of the war supporters.

(The reaction of Private Ryan was baloney - the reality is that our soldiers
in WWII were never rotated.  If they were front-line troops, they remained in
the thick of it until the war ended, they were injured, or they were killed.
Any one of them would have fell to his knees and after thanking God, would
have eagerly permitted Tom Hanks to escort them to safety.)

Jerry Harp

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==
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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
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gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

1998-12-18 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/18/98 2:55:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


 As far as Livingston, or any of the other philanderers/crooks in office,
they
 too can screw their brains out, they just cannot lie about it beforea trial
 court and a grand jury.


In any ethics class or discussion, your statement would be an excellent
example of narrow legalism taking the place of objective reality.

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Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

1998-12-18 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/18/98 6:28:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 the impeachment ISN'T ABOUT SEX...

Just keep telling yourself that.

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Re: [CTRL] Some Thought on Iraq

1998-12-17 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 1:38:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The peoples of Iraq face the same dilemma that Americans do - removing a
  unfit leader (some believe his is unfit) from office.  Each of our peoples
  are presented with problems in doing just that.  Though considering the
  growing number of corpses surrounding the Clinton Administration I suspect
  that these problems that one could encounter are very similar indeed.

It's really inconvenient when the facts get in the way, as Reagan would say.

Most Americans are not confronted with the problem of removing their
democratically elected leader.  Most Americans are confronted with a radical
right-wing cabal and a compliant press who are attempting to remove the
President on a trivial legalism.

As for the corpses, i suggest that you visit the urban legends site.

Jerry harp

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Re: [CTRL] Skolnick: Various Dangers To Clinton and Gore

1998-12-17 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 3:48:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  On Wednesday, Dec. 16, 1998, according to Mr. Skolnick's sources,
  over a score of top-level military brass, Admirals and  Generals,
  were  considering  how  to  go  about  arresting  President  Bill
  Clinton,   their  Commander-in-Chief,  under  provisions  of  the
  U.S. Military Code.

This is pure bunk.  We are not some banana republic.  One or two generals, ala
General Walker during the 1960s, may be treasonous and looney as well but not
more than a score.

Jerry harp

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Re: [CTRL] Perjury

1998-12-17 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 7:09:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  I don't care if she pranced into the Oval Office stark naked and threw
  herself on him

Isn't it a little overboard to believe that every consensual illicit affair
between adults is a case of sexual harassment?

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Re: [CTRL] !!! NEWS FLASH !!!

1998-12-17 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/16/98 9:23:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 
They don't have to strike today, tomorrow or next month.
The people have no where go . EXCEPT TO PUT UP A
SMOKE SCREEN to cover up for a criminal politician, there
is no reason why this must be done today,
  

The UNSCOM report had just come out stating that there is every sign that
Saddam is going ahead with his WMD program.  In the meantime, Saddam had shut
the UNSCOM down so surveillance was no longer taking place.  Since Iraq could
develop a major capability in just a few months, Clinton had to act fast.
Since launching an attack during Ramadan would be awkward, Wednesday was a
good choice.

I trust you are not like Trent "draft dodger" Lott who complained a short
while back that Clinton missed an opportunity to bomb Iraq.  Now, of course,
he is in a rage over the bombing.  Could it be that Lott is so unprincipled
that his stance merely depends upon what political wind seems convenient?
Incidentally, Lott was full of praise for the racist group that Bob "family
values" Barr recently keynoted for.

I do agree that innocent people will be injured and killed in addition to
their property destroyed and they will be indirectly harmed by destruction of
utilities.  That is why people like Lugar, Gingrich, and Lott should not be so
eager for war as a way to prove their manhood, i.e. show machismo by sending
other to die.  Strange how on the right, with people like Safire who have been
screaming for the US to bomb Iraq, there are now only pacifists.

Jerry harp

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Re: [CTRL] The Holocaust

1998-12-17 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 10:09:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Incidentally, today's unbelievable, brazen, crass act of war against Iraq
  by Clinton and the claque of Jews around him (Cohen, Berger, Albright,
  Emanuel, and on and on and on) goes will go along way within six months to
  have many more Americans using the term ZOG (zionist occupational
  governement) and JOB (Jewish Occupational Government). This attack has
  nothing to do with American interests, as more and more Americans are
  waking up to that simple reality. Jim Condit Jr.

You're not an anti-Semite?  The dictionaries should show your face in the
definition space.  Incidentally, i don't need Fr. Fahey to tell me what anti-
Semitism is since i have seen it all my life and find it disgusting.  Your
uncharacteristic errors in syntax betrays your blind rage.

President Clinton launched the attack to cripple Saddam's WMD capability.
Saddam had placed so many restrictions on UNSCOM that UNSCOM left Iraq.
Therefore, there was no longer any surveillance of Saddam's WMD development
status.  However, the final UNSCOM report stated that Iraq was proceeding as
fast as it could given the presence of UNSCOM.  Since Iraq could develop a
serious arsenal in just a few months, President Clinton had to move fairly
fast.  Since it would be awkward to start the bombing during Ramadan, the JCS
advised him to act now.  The brouhaha about the timing is just more Republican
hysteria.  Anyway, it is not a big deal to put off the impeachment (coup
d'etat) vote for another few weeks.

Jerry harp

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Re: [CTRL] Bob Dole

1998-12-17 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 10:09:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Did he tell her that she could not get pregnant if he did not come in

  her too.

Did i mss something in the little mickey mouse class i had to take on
"marriage?"

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Re: [CTRL] Perjury

1998-12-17 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 10:09:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  This is the first time we have seen a major prolonged attack on a
  sovereign nation who was not already attacking somebody else. We have lost
  control of our country, and you don't have to look into shadowy, mysterious
  organizations to see who now runs it. It's on your TV every hour, 24 hours
  a day when an event like this is on --- those working with AIPAC, the evil
  B'nai B'rith, and the Isreali lobby. It's now out in the open for everyone
  to see. It is necessary that we have a Christian, dignified, but vigorous
  attitude as we move to take back our country like the Catholic Church in
  the Middle Ages, and not fall for unjust reactions to unjust aggression
  such as was overseen by the evil Adolph Hitler -- who really has turned out
  to be the best propaganda weapon that anti-Christ Jewry ever had.

First, I'm glad that you're not an anti-Semite.


  This is the first time we have seen a major prolonged attack on a
  sovereign nation who was not already attacking somebody else.

Have you been asleep for the past forty years?  We attacked North Vietnam
before their North Vietnamese troops went into south.  Of course, "South
Vietnam" was merely an invention to keep the Vietnamese from governing
themselves but that's another story.

We invaded Panama making 20,000 homeless.  What country were the Panamanians
attacking?  We invaded Grenada.  We bombed Libya.  We put together terrorist
groups to attack Nicaragua and ferried them about for this purpose not to
mention mining the national harbor.  Would overthrowing democratically elected
governments in Iran, Guatemala, and Chile count?

Jerry Harp

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Re: [CTRL] Hate Speech and Canada

1998-12-16 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/16/98 1:54:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 the
  people that are trying to continually drag up the Holocaust in the
  way that
  they have (Harp and Duck) should have some thing done to them.

Actually, i have merely responded to other's posts that insinuate that the
Jews brought it all on themselves.  Still, fry dr. quack quack if you must but
what, choke, would you have done to us?

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Re: [CTRL] Here Comes Da Judge ...

1998-12-16 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/16/98 4:10:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  As if to foreshadow Clinton's difficulties, Rehnquist explains that
  Johnson's conviction would have opened the door to frivolous impeachment
  attempts against subsequent presidents.

It's good to point out Rhenquist's "on the record" thinking but this is the
guy who claimed a lawsuit against Clinton could proceed while Clinton was
still in office because a lawsuit would not distract the President.  He is
also the guy who, before he was appointed to the Supreme Court used to hang
out at election booth lines intimidating minority folks.  Even the supposedly
less rabid Republicans like Hyde take no notice of their past declarations.
The Republicans smell blood and no constitutional principle is going to stop
them.

Jerry Harp

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[CTRL] A kinder, gentler lynch mob - Part I

1998-12-16 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

A kinder, gentler lynch mob
Salon, 12/15/98



THE 'PEACHY-KEEN GOP HAS SHOWN ITS TRUE COLORS -- AND THEY CONFIRM THE MOST
BRAIN-DEAD RADICAL STEREOTYPES FROM THE '60S.

BY GARY KAMIYA
I grew up believing that Republicans were the incarnation of all evil. This
was a harsh and unsophisticated judgment, but the political discourse of 1960s
Berkeley, where I grew up, lacked a certain refinement. In fact, to be honest,
it was pretty much taken straight from Saturday morning cartoons. In our
righteous view, "the people," whoever they were, were always being "oppressed"
by The Man, a bloated GOP plutocrat mouthing pious moral maxims. It went
without saying that Republicans were self-righteous, mean-spirited rich white
men who secretly napalmed Cambodian villages, turned loose the dogs against
civil rights marchers and dug the Carpenters. They were Bad, and if we could
somehow get rid of them -- meanwhile taking lots of acid and listening to
Hendrix -- Good Things would happen.

Later, like many of my co-religionists, I became embarrassed by these
sentiments. Such crude beliefs were unseemly. Sophistication demanded a more
nuanced view. Republicans, I now realized, could be decent men and women who
were just parroting the country-club line. Even the Reagan Age -- that endless
period I as a Californian was forced to spend under the Great Communicator's
genially callous thumb, while the Woolly Mammoths died out and Ice Ages came
and went across the globe -- couldn't make me return to the wooden Stalinist
sloganeering of my youth. I even reevaluated the Carpenters.

And then came the Starr referral and Henry Hyde and the House Judiciary
Committee vote, and I realized I had gotten it right the first time.

When the Republicans in the full House vote to remove President Clinton from
office, as they will almost certainly do, they will prove that those brain-
dead radical stereotypes about them really do apply. They will be revealed as
mean-spirited, partisan hacks, hypocrites, moral absolutists hiding their
craven desire for vengeance and power beneath a ridiculously transparent
façade of pious "deliberation" and "respect for law." The GOP will stand
exposed before all of America as the party of vicious, petty ideologues who,
in their outrageous desire to undo the results of two lawful elections, seized
upon a grotesquely acquired legalistic evasion that falls so far short of
meeting the constitutional standard of high crimes and misdemeanors as to be
laughable.

Or, let's give them the benefit of the doubt, as the ever-generous New York
Times did in a recent editorial. Let's assume that some of them are actually
sincere in their belief that lying about sex -- in an obvious vendetta case
brought by a biased and obsessed "independent" counsel who, after utterly
failing to find any serious misdeeds, connived to lay a perjury trap --
constitutes an impeachable offense. But if they really believe that, then we
must conclude that either their grasp of the Constitution is so weak that
their fitness to sit in any elected office is highly questionable, or that
they are so rigid in their moral purity as to be Torquemadas in power ties,
quasi-theocratic inquisitors who would turn America into a frightening Bible
Belt version of 15th century Spain or 20th century Iran.

Why are the Republicans doing this? Why, defying the express wishes of the
American people, are they trampling on the Constitution, weakening the
presidency and inaugurating a hideous new political world of blood feuds and
true hatred? And why are they ignoring the warnings from the business
community -- to which they used to listen -- that impeachment is dangerous and
destabilizing?

The answer is simple: This is who they are. This action reflects the GOP's
true nature. This is a party so desperate to burn a president they dislike at
the stake that they'll incinerate the Constitution to get the fire started.
All that hoo-hah a few weeks ago about how Robert Livingston was going to
bring a new "moderation" to the party now that nutty professor Gingrich was
gone stands revealed as empty verbiage. The truth is that this is now a party
of zealots and ideologues, obsessed crusaders who have completely lost touch
with the common sense, fairness and decency of the American people. Like Pol
Pot's Khmer Rouge, who declared a purifying "Year Zero" when history's slate
was to be wiped clean (and all nonpeasants were to be killed), these high-
minded crusaders want to restore America's sense of moral purpose -- and if
they have to trash the country in order to do it, well, extremism in the
defense of virtue is no vice! To the tumbrels with the parasites, citizens,
while the Times and the Post knit their stern editorials! GOP "moderates"?
What moderates? The few "moderates" who are trotted forth on TV to be shown to
the mob, like condemned Chinese dissidents with signs hanging around their
necks, seem barely sentient.

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[CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob - Part II

1998-12-16 Thread Gerald Harp

 -Caveat Lector-

A KINDER, GENTLER LYNCH MOB | PAGE 1, 2
- - - - - - - - - -

The façade of "judiciousness" and "bipartisanship" that the pious media, ever
cowed by the musty aura of Historic Constitutional Events, dark-wooded
chambers, invocations of "our national honor" and other useful fig leafs for
skullduggery, tried to sell us has vanished without a trace. Hyde, the Iran-
contra apologist and wisecracking GOP attack dog who was elevated to Solomon-
like heights of wisdom by the media before the disgraceful House Judicial
proceedings began, has now taken up final residence in the trash can with
unsavory American byproducts like our anal home-grown Robespierre, Kenneth
Starr, and the maniacal Bob Barr, who apparently believes that Clinton should
have been impeached at birth. There was Hyde this weekend on the talk shows,
saying that Clinton should resign. This paragon of impartiality apparently
modeled his jurisprudential approach on the Red Queen in "Alice in
Wonderland," who, as a witness departs in the trial of the Knave of Hearts,
says under her voice, "And just take off his head outside." But, gosh, he sure
sounds courtly talking that parliamentary talk.

In fact, Hyde may have been taking those groveling Times setup pieces a little
too seriously, for this weekend he began to invoke no less a figure than Jesus
Christ. Asked by Cokie Roberts why he advocated impeachment and didn't think
censure should be an option despite popular opinion, he replied, "If Jesus
Christ had taken a poll, he would never have preached the gospel." This is a
wonderful addition to the great American tradition of reactionary invocations
of Jesus, who after patriotism represents the best refuge for scoundrels. (The
all-time winner remains that English-only advocate who declaimed, "If English
was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.") With all due respect to
the pious motivations behind Chairman Hyde's religious parallel, however, it
may not be a good strategy for him to go there. Somehow, when one looks at the
faces of Clinton's judges -- the pig-eyed ex-exterminator Tom DeLay; the
robotic, hate-filled Barr; the snidely, vitriolic David Schippers; the
priggish choirboy-judge Bill McCollum -- the loving face of the Savior does
not exactly rush into one's mind. In fact, these worthies recall somewhat less
inspiring figures from the New Testament -- namely the Pharisees, those
vengeful, legalistic Jews who denounced Jesus. (The "moderates," who will
doubtless be washing their hands avidly in the days to come, conjure up that
noted Northeastern GOP fence-sitter, Pontius Pilate.) Admittedly, the mushy-
souled escape artist President Clinton makes a truly terrible Jesus, but the
imagery still isn't good.

The Republicans are zealots, but they're crafty zealots. Their attempt to take
Clinton down may blow up in their faces, but they have reasons for thinking it
won't. They think they can get away with this without being punished at the
polls, even if they don't kill Clinton. But they cherish a secret hope that
they will kill him -- that once impeachment is a fait accompli, with all the
previously mentioned flag-waving, invocation of the Founders, gravity of the
charges blah blah blah, public opinion will turn against Clinton, leading
either to his resignation or to his conviction and removal by the Senate. And
that hope is based on their belief that Clinton's support is inch-deep -- that
once the American people realize he's in trouble, they'll desert him like rats
abandoning a sinking ship.

It's the self-fulfilling prophecy strategy, and it is astonishingly
contemptuous. It presumes that the American people have no memory, no
spiritual or moral consistency, that they are incapable of holding onto any
position any longer than a jittery kid with a remote can watch one TV program.
The GOP believes this for several reasons. First, they too are children of our
Warholian society of the spectacle, in which everything that flickers across
the screen has equal weight and nothing stays on the screen for more than a
few seconds. As such, they too have been seduced by the belief that, in Marx's
words, "all that is solid melts into air." Yesterday's Clinton supporter is
today's impeachment supporter.

The scary thing is, they just might be right. There have been very few tests
of our national consistency in the channel-changing age. The public might be
influenced by the media, which has begun running this-is-a-whole-new-ballgame-
now stories. The Times, much of whose Clinton coverage continues to appall,
splashed on its cover a thin reaction story (ominous headline: "Gravity of the
issues sinking in for a public weary of scandal") that featured two or three
people in that multicultural mirror of America, Tarrytown, N.Y., saying they
were now leaning toward impeachment. (How odd, considering nothing in this
story has changed in months except the vote to impeach.) But it would be
bitterly ironic (although perfectly consistent, 

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