Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Fw: End-Times Times]]
-Caveat Lector- So what's your point? It doesn't matter if they know what tribe their from, I'm sure God knows. Jamie -Original Message- From: Das GOAT [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 4:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Fw: End-Times Times]] -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-06-10 15:46:11 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The 144,000 are the Jews that are left behind after the Rapture of the Church. Revelation is clearly speaking of the 12 tribes of Israel as it even names each one. snip quote So, 144,000 aren't the only people going to heaven as you thought.. All or nearly all all the early Christians were Jews, and the "lost sheep" Jesus was sent to regather were the "lost" tribes of Israel, i.e., Greek-speaking Jews of the Diaspora. Never mind the fact that by Jesus' time, when this was written, no Jew knew any longer from which "tribe" he or she was descended, except for certain clans within the tribe of Judah, the house of Levi, and a few from "Benjamin" (like Josephus and Paul). There has probably been quite a substantial number of gentile Christians throughout history whose ancestors were "of" the various "lost" tribes. Israelite by inheritance, Christian by religion. So the explanation here is really beside the point. There are several other objections to this line of argument, but, as you suggest by saying phrase "add a thousand," the whole passage and the "sacred numbers" given in it are purely SYMBOLIC, not LITERAL. (Unless you want to "believe" otherwise ...) DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Fw: End-Times Times]]
-Caveat Lector- nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Das GOAT wrote: -Caveat Lector- "Christianity is a fine religion. A shame Christians have never PRACTICED it." Christianity is impossible to practice as advertised. This is a problem for Christians and everyone else who lives with them on this planet. A more reality based religion would have served Christians better. Joshua2 A lot of the problem is that the New Testament doesn't contain anything like a complete set of instructions for being a Christian. It contains a hodge-podge of notes, memoirs, and letters, not to mention a totally confused book of religious science fiction. The Gospels are artificial constructs, based partly on a collection of the sayings of Jesus and partly on much later liturgy. The letters of Paul and the others deal for the most part with very specific problems at very specific times and places, and are only marginally relevant to the present day. The real core of the teachings appears, from hints in patristic writings, to have been passed *orally* to catechists; this secret teaching died out during the persecutions or was subtly altered to fit the new political reality as the underground movement became a church and then *the* Church. Now, with that said, the New Testament is still a deep, vibrant, challenging source of inspiration and wisdom. I honestly find something new in it each time I read it. But it just isn't an operating manual, and you will make a very great mistake if you try to turn it into one. Bob = Robert F. Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remove "nospam" from the address to reply. NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml POSTING THIS MESSAGE TO THE INTERNET DOES NOT IMPLY PERMISSION TO SEND UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL (SPAM) TO THIS OR ANY OTHER INTERNET ADDRESS. RECEIPT OF SPAM WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION OF THE SENDER'S ISP. Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Fw: End-Times Times]]
-Caveat Lector- Das GOAT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Not to beat a dead fish, but I revel in quoting Matthew 7:20-27 (NIV) to "Christians": "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. "Many will say to me on [judgment] day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in thy name, and in your name drive out demons, and perform many miracles?' "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" That's Jesus Christ talking to CHRISTIANS, please note. If you want to take "The Word of God" LITERALLY, there'll be only 144,000 saved at Endtime. Let's do the math. That's only 72 new "good" people WORLDWIDE for each of Christianity's 2000 years. Since Constantine made Christianity the official religion of what became Western Civilization, there's probably been literally BILLIONS of nominal Christians -- certainly MILLIONS now. So, the odds are ASTRONOMICAL that EVERY self-professed "CHRISTIAN" we've ever known or heard of is GOING TO HELL, right alongside unabashed Satanists ... To quote the PRINCIPIA DISCORDIA, "The Hell Law says that Hell is reserved exclusively for them that believe in it. Further, the lowest Rung in Hell is reserved for them that believe in it on the supposition that they'll go there if they don't. HBT; The Gospel According to Fred, 3:1" I *refuse* to contradict the Gospel According to Fred. Hail Eris! Frater Fritterus, Q.W.E.R.T.Y.U.I.O.P. Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Fw: End-Times Times]]
-Caveat Lector- The 144,000 are the Jews that are left behind after the Rapture of the Church. Revelation is clearly speaking of the 12 tribes of Israel as it even names each one. [Rev 7:4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. [Rev 7:5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. [Rev 7:6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. [Rev 7:7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [Rev 7:8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. Now you do the math. 12*12=144 now just add the three 0's and there you have it. So, 144,000 aren't the only people going to heaven as you thought... Jamie Not to beat a dead fish, but I revel in quoting Matthew 7:20-27 (NIV) to "Christians": "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. "Many will say to me on [judgment] day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in thy name, and in your name drive out demons, and perform many miracles?' "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" That's Jesus Christ talking to CHRISTIANS, please note. If you want to take "The Word of God" LITERALLY, there'll be only 144,000 saved at Endtime. Let's do the math. That's only 72 new "good" people WORLDWIDE for each of Christianity's 2000 years. Since Constantine made Christianity the official religion of what became Western Civilization, there's probably been literally BILLIONS of nominal Christians -- certainly MILLIONS now. So, the odds are ASTRONOMICAL that EVERY self-professed "CHRISTIAN" we've ever known or heard of is GOING TO HELL, right alongside unabashed Satanists ... DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Fw: End-Times Times]]
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-06-10 15:46:11 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The 144,000 are the Jews that are left behind after the Rapture of the Church. Revelation is clearly speaking of the 12 tribes of Israel as it even names each one. snip quote So, 144,000 aren't the only people going to heaven as you thought.. All or nearly all all the early Christians were Jews, and the "lost sheep" Jesus was sent to regather were the "lost" tribes of Israel, i.e., Greek-speaking Jews of the Diaspora. Never mind the fact that by Jesus' time, when this was written, no Jew knew any longer from which "tribe" he or she was descended, except for certain clans within the tribe of Judah, the house of Levi, and a few from "Benjamin" (like Josephus and Paul). There has probably been quite a substantial number of gentile Christians throughout history whose ancestors were "of" the various "lost" tribes. Israelite by inheritance, Christian by religion. So the explanation here is really beside the point. There are several other objections to this line of argument, but, as you suggest by saying phrase "add a thousand," the whole passage and the "sacred numbers" given in it are purely SYMBOLIC, not LITERAL. (Unless you want to "believe" otherwise ...) DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Fw: End-Times Times]]
-Caveat Lector- Robert Tatman wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Das GOAT wrote: -Caveat Lector- "Christianity is a fine religion. A shame Christians have never PRACTICED it." Christianity is impossible to practice as advertised. This is a problem for Christians and everyone else who lives with them on this planet. A more reality based religion would have served Christians better. Joshua2 A lot of the problem is that the New Testament doesn't contain anything like a complete set of instructions for being a Christian. It contains a hodge-podge of notes, memoirs, and letters, not to mention a totally confused book of religious science fiction. The Gospels are artificial constructs, based partly on a collection of the sayings of Jesus and partly on much later liturgy. The letters of Paul and the others deal for the most part with very specific problems at very specific times and places, and are only marginally relevant to the present day. The real core of the teachings appears, from hints in patristic writings, to have been passed *orally* to catechists; this secret teaching died out during the persecutions or was subtly altered to fit the new political reality as the underground movement became a church and then *the* Church. Now, with that said, the New Testament is still a deep, vibrant, challenging source of inspiration and wisdom. I honestly find something new in it each time I read it. But it just isn't an operating manual, and you will make a very great mistake if you try to turn it into one. Bob = Very well stated sir. J2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
