-Caveat Lector- Bobbie: Ingram, Rabie, Risch? That's a good place to start. Those guy's . . . Ingram is serving a sentence for child molestation. He ratted out Rabie and Risch. They're all cops. All part of, uh . . . Patterson's close to them too . . . and deeper. They, uh, they were part of a kind of off the wall church group in Olympia that had . . . They had been, uh, doing sneaky, nasty things to their children for about fifteen years at the time. Uh, when I, uh, when I first met Michael he and I were talking about certain things and folks that we knew in common. Michael was investigating this stolen stuff from the Navy shipyard in Bremerton and uh, and around in that circle there were some folks that were common to, common people that we knew, and Steve was one of them. Um, and then, and also, you know, it was all kind of you know connected with these men who were, um, also part of, like, a pedophile group. And Steve was on the fringes of that and I never, really I never really accused Steven of, of being one of them, you know, um, because, uh, it's not something I could document. I do know that when he was made aware of those things that those people are into, that he didn't back away from them, and he still sees them. Now. <nessie>: Well, did you know what they were up to before they were arrested? Bobbie: Did I? Well I talked to a man named Jungenson who was helping me put together stuff for my custody case. And John was friends with Pat Sutherland, who's the prosecutor in Thurston County. And he went to Pat Sutherland and said, there are people in your sheriff's department who seem to be part of a group that are kinda doing icky things. And Sutherland said that's ridiculous, and called Ingram in and said do you think there are people in . . . Well, Ingram snapped, and he admitted it and confessed, right then and there. So Gary Edwards and Gary Tabor started an investigation into it. Oddly enough, Brad Owen was the legislator that provided them the budget to continue the investigation. Part of the case fell apart. There were, there were, stuff that was kinda unforeseen. Um, I mean, that was all about the same time that Steve showed up at the house, at our house in Oregon, and tried to take Katie. It was all very . . . hard to believe, really. That these things . . . If I were to look at it, not having been there, I'd say that this is ridiculous, that these things could be interrelated, but they were, you know. The group of people that Steve hung out with down in San Jose, most of them either moved to Shelton . . . I mean this is a town of 7,000 people! This is a logging town! I mean, what in the world would these . . . I mean there was six or seven of them ended up there and a couple of them in eastern Washington. What are the odds, you know? What would be the draw to Shelton of all places! It's a little sleepy town. <nessie>: Your kids are there, right? Bobbie: Nah. They're in Olympia right now. Steven has since moved to Olympia. Actually he's in Lacey, which is just a little bit in the other direction towards Ft. Lewis.(nervous laugh) They, uh, the kids, uh . . . Steve's part of the social worker community now. He went from logger to alcohol drug counselor in the space of about seven months; I'm not sure why. But he basically told the kids since they've been up there that he knew everybody, you know. "Oh, the pediatrician? He's my friend. Oh the people at CPS? There my friends." The kids are really quite frightened to tell anybody anything. Now it's like their worst nightmares have come true. <nessie>: Yours too. eh? Bobbie: Well, yea. <nessie>: Well maybe not your worst. Bobbie: Pretty close. <nessie>: So you don't want to be taken back there. Bobbie: No not in chains I don't! I don't want to go up there in chains. I don't think I'll make it. <nessie>: Why not? Bobbie: Well the stuff we provided to Sutherland, Ingram's serving a sentence because of it. And the amount of attention that was on Mason County after the Matamoros thing . . . there were cars there from Shelton . . . not a good thing . . . not a good thing. <nessie>: So these guys have a personal . . . Bobbie: . . . ax to grind, yea. <nessie>: . . . that has nothing to do with Michael's case. Bobbie: No it doesn't. But they're a willing pool of people. One of the witnesses against Michael at his trial, we had quite a bit of information on because he was part of that crowd, you know, he was a friend of Steve's. There were two of them, the main corroborating witness against Steven, I mean against Michael, was a guy who threatened my kids in the early eighties. My only knowledge of him came from threats that he made about my children and I notified law enforcement in several places. <nessie>: And you thought your kids would be safe in California? Bobbie: Well, yea. Basically. I try to do things real quiet, you know, I mean I don't do a lot to attract a lot of attention. I haven't . . . On one level, anyone who wanted to know where I was, knew where I was. You know, we were . . . I, uh . . . The Brooks Committee had my phone number. And, you know, reporters from everywhere around both coasts. <nessie>: So you finally mailed the Brooks letter, right? Bobbie: Well, yea. <nessie>: Heard from him? Bobbie: No. And I asked for it a couple of weeks ago. It would have been nice to have gotten a response. <nessie>: Anyone on his committee? Bobbie: I talked to John Cohen after I got out of jail, briefly. He's the legal council for the Brooks Committee. I got a letter from the attorney in Chicago. I got a fax from him early this morning, in fact. <nessie>: So they left you hanging, huh? Bobbie: Oh, yea. <nessie>: They left Michael hanging. Bobbie: Oh Yea. Yea, well, you know, I guess that's the way of the world. <nessie>: Who do you turn to? Bobbie: I don't know. <nessie>: It's a problem. huh? Bobbie: Yea . . . It, uh . . . The letter, part of what I said in my letter to the Committee had to do with this kind of thing, it was really kind of a . . . I don't know, I suppose if it had been anybody else it would have been ironic, you know, but looking at it myself it wasn't, just awful. Part of the letter had to do with you know I have teenagers who are wondering why, you know, how can our system of government . . . how can I tell them that they should believe that, that there is justice, there is a separation between the executive branch and the judicial branch, you know, when that's not what they see. <nessie>: They must be pretty disillusioned, huh? Bobbie: Yea, quite a bit. I worry about it because I've, even when it was apparent that justice wasn't being served. You know, I mean, basically, you know, in a nutshell the way my kids describe it is: Daddy, uh, Daddy testified against the Justice Department and the Justice Department got him. Pretty simple. Very straight forward. <nessie>: Obvious! (laughs) Bobbie: And, you know, like I said, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, is part of the Justice Department. Gee, that seems like retaliation. <nessie>: You must have anticipated some of these things or you wouldn't have asked Michael not to testify. Bobbie: What I anticipated was, what scared me was Michael tried to let Vukowsky, he called and left a message for Vukowsky that he was going to sign the affidavit. Vukowsky didn't call him back. Videnieks did. And when Michael decided to put those paragraphs into the affidavit, that worried me. You know, I wanted to know more. I wanted him to wait. I wanted to understand more. You know, but Richardson was pushing that they were going to charge Michael with pirating the software, instead. You know, he was between a rock and a hard place. <nessie>: Is that why he decided to testify? Bobbie: Partially. It was one of the factors. He'd already provided certain things to the Hamiltons. He'd already irritated everybody anyway. You know, that were irritated by the issue of him walking around. He didn't play by their rules anymore. He stopped. <nessie>: What's your relationship with the Hamiltons? Bobbie: You mean now? Or in general? <nessie>: In general. Bobbie: Well, Bill Hamilton, this is just my opinion, he comes across as Mr. Midwest, but the bottom line is that he's worked for the NSA for years. You know, he did . . . The fact that he was asked to make that software, you know there was a reason for that, I mean, come on. (laughs) He was part of the team for a while. He wasn't naive. He knew what was going on. To a certain degree, I mean, he didn't know what was happening with the software after a point. I don't think that he did . . . The players were not unknown to him. He has a very close relationship with Bob Nichols, to this day. Talks two or three times a week. You know the messages that Michael gets from Bob go through Bill Hamilton. And Bill will tell you that. Their relationship has been . . . <nessie>: There's a milieu here. Aside from the organizations involved, this is a milieu, right? Did you and Michael associate with the Hamiltons socially, ever? Bobbie: I never associated with any of them, except Ted and Jackie. Even with Ted and Jackie, Jackie was more aware of Michael's and my relationship. Ted was kept in the dark, because Ted and Bob have a very close relationship as well. So the only people in those circles that I had met in Michael's business circles I had met Pat Moriarity and Tony Ingotti and of course Mike's dad and Stelciay (sp?) and that group, you know, and I knew who they all were. And I'd met Dennis Kindall. Sir Dennis was, uh . . . I picked Michael up there. And other than that I didn't have any contact with those people. You know, Michael, for the most part, except for when, when the Hamiltons . . . the investigator for Richardson . . . everywhere we went, there was a fax, you know, "Get in touch with us! Get in touch with us!" And that was in '89, you know, quite a while ago. And simultaneously with that, that's when Jack Anderson got in touch with Michael and said you need to talk to this guy Danny Casolaro. "If you're going to talk to the press at all, this is who you need to be talking to." It was based on that, that Michael had his first conversation with Danny, in '89. <nessie>: Jack Anderson? Bobbie: Yea. <nessie>: Aha! Did Michael's work ever make you . . . Bobbie: Uncomfortable? <nessie>: . . . afraid for your kids. Bobbie: Well Michael . . . <nessie>: I mean before all this stuff hit the fan here. Bobbie: When I first met Michael, I thought he just needed a good shrink because it was impossible for him to be what he said he was. I mean, I don't meet people like that, personally. You know, um, but then when he took me to Hercules for the first time . . . When I first went to Hercules the Thagart reactor was still there. There was a team of people. The EPA was there. It was quite the setup. It was something to make you stand up and take notice. "Oh. oops! Michael!," you know. Admiral Renkin was still alive there. When I got pregnant with Elizabeth, he told Michael to give me twenty grand and send me on my way, it would be the best thing for me. "Separate her from this. Walk away." <nessie>: Did you ever try to talk Michael out of any of this stuff, before he got in trouble? Bobbie: Well . . . um . . . As far as I knew, he had already walked away from most of it, and that was part of the problem, you know. (nervous laugh) And, um, I, the only time that I, like when he started talking to the press, and the Inslaw thing was heating up, and he'd been talking to the Brooks committee and he'd been talking to Richardson. you know, going back and forth about what the affidavit was going to say and what it wasn't going to say, how far he was going to go with it . . . yea, that scared me. <nessie>: When he first called the Hamiltons, did he talk to you about it first? Bobbie: Um. yea . . . He. I knew about PROMIS, because when we bought the house that we had in Oregon, when we remodeled it, he made modifications to the electrical system and stuff, so he could work at home. And, you know, so he could have, you know, have archiving and the [DEC] VAXes and stuff there and although, and it wasn't, he, uh, he had uh, he had the software there. He had locked files out in the hangar, you know, they're like safe files, they're real heavy when they're empty, and they've got combination locks on 'em and stuff and I had to read regulations for storing classified materials. He was in the process of trying to, uh, separate himself from most of it. Um, and it scared me. When I had a run in in '85 with Dr. John's little crowd and that scared me a lot. I didn't know . . . there was nothing I could do about it. I . . . <nessie>: What scared you about it? About what they were doing? Or their demeanor? Bobbie: Well, I didn't know all of what they were doing. You know, Michael would tell me things off the cuff, you know. I think when it finally hit home was when Pan Am 103 went down. I listened to the news . . . Michael had come home; he'd been home maybe three hours. And he hadn't been home in a couple of weeks. And he was just being . . . he had just gone to bed. I was listening to the news and they were talking about this plane going down over Lockerbie and the fact that the CIA station boss from Beirut was on the plane and you know, I'm uh, sitting there thinking, "Wake him up or not? If I wake him up, I betcha he's going to leave." I don't want him to leave. He needs to be home. He's tired. You know, I kinda have to wake him up. You know, back and forth, back and forth. Finally I decided I had to wake him up and he left about an hour later. He made phone calls from the house that night that he had never really made before. He never used to make any of those kind of calls from the house. He would go to a pay phone, and you know and called them so there wasn't, you know, I mean, Michael was the king of change. The kids always knew where to get spare change. His pockets were always full of quarters. And that night he called several people and he told them not to talk to Bob. He told them not to talk to certain other individuals, Ted in particular. I'd never seen him so agitated. He left that night. He said he'd be back in a couple of hours and he flew to Oklahoma. I don't know if you want to pursue this . . . (We had a brief off record discussion of the implications, legal and otherwise, of discussing classified material, particularly bio-war. Bobbie was becoming increasingly nervous. Neither of us, we both agreed, wanted to fight a treason bust. Neither of us cared to be "silenced.") <nessie>: Let's talk about the plane. Bobbie: Oh, OK . . . <nessie>: So Michael runs out of the house in the middle of the night. He's scared. You must have been scared. Bobbie: I was very concerned, because what he basically said when he left was that somebody had made a decision, and the decision was that anybody who was aware of certain things that had happened during given operations, specifically, um, uh, Yermay, Fidco, those companies, those proprietary companies that the operation to redo the, uh, structure of Beirut after the bombing, anybody that was aware of those operations, looked at them, were on that plane. OK, they were gone. That's heavy. The ones that weren't gone, were, shortly thereafter. <nessie>: Now, did Michael explain this to you when he was packing, did you know ahead of time, or did you figure it out later? Bobbie: I knew about Fidco. I didn't know much about Yermay, although I'd heard of it. I knew a little, just real surface things about PROMIS, why they did what they did, how it was being used. Um, I didn't know anything really beyond that, except that that was when at the end of that time when Michael walked away, that that was the principals in Fidco and the Wackenhut/Cabazon Joint Venture, that's what they were very irritated at Michael about, OK, was it had to do with that. I didn't know the specifics. The only thing that I knew that the people that were on that plane were people that Michael trusted. They were people that Michael had worked with. And that they were basically honest folk. And that they were on their way home to dump it. OK? They were on their way home to open their mouths. <nessie>: So they were walking away from it. Bobbie: Because it was, it was ugly what was happening. You know? The double and triple dealing, the uh, you know, all of that, that kind of, of stuff that wasn't, had nothing to do with anything as far as security went. It didn't have to do with intelligence operations that were normally, went through normal channels any more. It was ugly stuff that needed to be stopped. And, you know some of the family, some of the family, uh, Michael talked to. He went through the same kind of thing when Gerald was murdered. You know he talked to Gerald's wife, and she, I mean she called often for along time. She talked to him because, you know it wasn't, it wasn't OK. They hung him out there to dry. To get off that way. And it shouldn't have been like that. And there came a point where Michael said enough is enough. I, uh, . . . the Pan Am 103 thing, Les Coleman, he filed an affidavit in the Inslaw case that we tried to get entered into evidence in Michael's trial and the judge wouldn't allow it. He wouldn't allow anything that had to do with that. He, he instructed the prosecution on how to limit Michael's ability to defend himself. It should have been expected. <nessie>: Lets back up for a minute. Michael walked away. Was it a gradual decision? Or did he snap one day and say, "I've had enough of this?" Bobbie: It was gradual, I think. Because, you know, any time you work in intelligence circles, it's been my observation from what he's told me, there's things that have to be finished, you know, uh, active things that are in the process of being done, you know, you finish up what you're doing. <nessie>: So he was tucking loose ends in, he wasn't like, wanting to testify? Bobbie: No. No, no, no. He never would have testified unless he was made to. The affidavit that he filed was not, I mean, he was co-operating with the Brooks committee, but the affidavit was not an affidavit that was filed in the Brooks committee, no, it wasn't filed in the House Judiciary Committee. It was filed in the case of Inslaw v. Justice. <nessie>: Before this, and before the plane went down, Michael decided to extract himself gracefully from this a piece at a time . . . Bobbie: Yea. We were . . . <nessie>: He talked about this. Bobbie: Yea, and we were working on, he had found some ways to extract, um, to extract platinum group metals from each other in really easy steps and he was just jazzed about that. We'd been picking up mining claims here and there, when we could. And that's what he wanted. That and to raise the kids, you know. He'd basically spent most of Andrew's growing up years away from him. And he didn't want to do that again. <nessie>: So suddenly he had a way to make a decent living without working for those people. Bobbie: That's right. <nessie>: And that was the last straw. Bobbie: I think so. <nessie>: He said, "I don't have to do this any more." Bobbie: And he shouldn't have had to any way, but, you know the way that they do things such that they got you tied up coming and going. He stopped when it came to certain technology that he was working on in the eighties that he stopped dead in his tracks anyway. <nessie>: Bio-war? Bobbie: (long pause) Uh . . . (nods affirmative) <nessie>: At the point that he stopped working on bio-war, he knew enough to be dangerous? Bobbie: Uh huh. Yea. Yea. <nessie>: And yet he decided to back away. Did you have input into this? Bobbie: Hmmmnn. Not the decision making. I mean not specifically. Michael and I, you know, we were a team and when it came to life decisions, yea, we discussed them. He didn't make me privy to a lot of things because, for one thing, a lot of it is classified, you know. That's a traitor, you know . . . <nessie>: Right. Bobbie: And the same thing holds as far as sharing the stuff with the grand jury, you know, when he was called before that grand jury, there is a limit to what Michael can say. And they know that. You know, because if he discloses everything, conceivably, he could be charged. <nessie>: Right . . . Did you know about the bio-war when he was doing it? Or after he told you he quit? Bobbie: No. When I started to get a glimpse into that, what I saw was research about the other end of it, about things that Michael had been doing to counter act those things. Um, and it, I remember saying, "Why is this not public knowledge?" It needs to be. You know it offends my sensibilities that it's not. <nessie>: It must be a hard thing for a mother to discover. Bobbie: Well you know, a lot of those things . . . there were things that I was not oblivious to, you know, I knew the kinds of things that Michael worked with. And the things he worked on. I know what his areas of knowledge are, his expertise are. So certain things follow. But specifics . . . all I knew was what he . . . what was important to me that he wanted to step back. He wanted to (unintelligible) the wave of stuff that was, you know, coming down around all of those issues, all those operations and all of those things. He didn't want to be, he didn't want to be put in a position where his family could be held hostage. Up until Michael's arrest, most people, even people very close to Michael, they may have had a suspicion, but most of them didn't even know that I existed. We were very, very much separate from his life. You know, that's why, uh, had they not put pressure on me with the custody issue so soon after Michael's arrest they wouldn't have been able to do things the way that they did in his case, because he did have a life outside of all of those folks. And when they set up all of the dates and times and places like that, they didn't take into consideration that he had a life separate from that. Such as a wife and family. The last year before Michael went to jail, um, when we moved up to eastern Washington, he was home most of the time. And we were doing home school and when the kids got bored and it's forty below zero and there's three feet of snow and he was showing the kids how you make a (unintelligible) out of the snow flake, how he'd come in from the shop with this weird look on his face, "Look! I don't know why but the copper rods are getting plated with iridium. Weird." You know, and, "What do you guys think?" So the idea that he was doing something else wouldn't have washed had I been in a position to help him. His attitude when he was arrested was, "You get the kids and you get out of here. I want you as far from the center of this hurricane as you can get. Because it's gonna getcha. And I can't let that happen. I'll give them what ever they want before I let that happen and they know it." And I was terrified. I, um, we spent thirty days, the kids and I and my brother, spent thirty days on the road. We went to Los Angeles via Chicago. We got on a train in Spokane and went to Texas via Chicago, then we went to Florida, and then we went to Georgia, and then we came back to the west coast. Uh, you know, as far as day to day things went, the kids' education continued. We saw sixteen capitals and every time we hit a state border we got as much information about the state as we could and we did what we could do to, you know I made sure that they were up on their studies and things like that, and kept things as normal as I could. It wasn't normal. I was terrified. The only person I talked to daily was Danny. <nessie>: (laughing) You must have been a mess. Bobbie: (laughs) It was awful. It was . . . .you know when Michael first told me, before he signed that statement that Edwin Meese said that, you know, I would not be . . . .that he would attack me in order to keep Michael quiet . . . . I would . . . I didn't know how to deal with that. I mean that's the closest thing that I ever came to dealing with the government was, was, you know in campaigning for new busses for the school district. <nessie>: So you've got quite an education here. Bobbie: Oh yea. <nessie>: I have a question now. You're scared of the deputy sheriffs. You're scared of the Justice Department. You're afraid for your kids. You're afraid for your life. Did it ever occur to you that Michael's involvement in bio-war was a threat to you in the case of an accident? Did it ever cross your mind to think that maybe he's going to come home with some on his sleeve? Bobbie: Um, no. It never occurred to me. Thanks a lot! No. (nervous laughter) That never occurred to me. He did have the thing that, uh, um looked like mace like a little mace can only longer, and I did get a shot and so did the kids. <nessie>: Know what it was? Bobbie: No. And the shot was basically an immunization. You know. I wasn't aware of the biological thing, um and that was a source of contention. Michael and I, really recently, as a matter of fact, because I backed him against the wall with it not long ago, and I, I mean, between he and I and finally I said to him, "I want to know. Who'd you do it for? When did you do it. Is that what I think it is? Is that what this is? Is that what this documentation is about? I'm not stupid, Michael, tell me. I need to know. I have a right to know." And he told me. And I wasn't happy. And I wasn't briefed at all with, um, and nor was, I mean he was. abjectly apologetic . . . . <nessie>: What he told you was not classified? Bobbie: I don't know that it's classified. There was a group of people that were involved in the technology with private industry combined with intelligence groups but not the entire agency. Do you know what I mean? Um, a very tight group of people that were involved. The audacity of that group of people still makes me want to scream. The idea that they're . . . their superior attitude towards the rest of us folks is enough to make me just want to slap them. <nessie>: Right. Bobbie: But I felt like that often. <nessie>: Bio-war is a very sensitive issue. Bobbie: If I were to talk about that openly, they'd put me in leathers real quick. <nessie>: Right. Bobbie: Who'd believe it? <nessie>: There must be a great deal about bio-war research that Michael knows that he didn't tell you since you had to pry out of him what he did tell you. Bobbie: No. You see I didn't have to pry out of him what time, place, people. Because the people he told me he walked away from, the time frame, there was something wrong with it. So when I asked him about it, he told me, and I didn't like what I heard. But he . . . the actuality of it. um, that wasn't the thing, you know, I had the research, I had the documentation how far back it went, where he was taking it to, and what the extension of that was. And then when I got the other stuff that, uh, that what Bob and, and, uh, Shockley and them are doing now, um, I'm not that dumb. I can put two and two together . . . Michael was unaware of what they're doing now. (At this point, Bobbie decided that she had said enough. Perhaps she had.) DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 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